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bamabonners
04-11-2014, 11:45 PM
Simple question.... The quality of the MC is leaps better and the dealers that I have met have all been excellent. MC has more features, better ride, more selection. Everyone knows MC name and heritage, why are they not the market leader?

JDK
04-11-2014, 11:48 PM
Simple question.... MC has more features, better ride, more selection. Everyone knows MC name and heritage, why are they not the market leader?

Simple answer - every one of your points are debatable.

jdhart73
04-11-2014, 11:51 PM
Lol ^^^

AlbertaSurfer
04-11-2014, 11:57 PM
Honestly, I don't go to my dealer unless I absolutely have to. They're the least helpful, and it's like pulling teeth to get them to assist me with my boat.

Go to a boat show, and ask around outside the MasterCraft booth what people think of MC. You'll see why they aren't the market leader pretty quick.

MC25
04-12-2014, 12:12 AM
I was just looking at texas sales numbers last month on how many each manufacturer sells in my area. Malibu outsold mc by 10 boats (new) and tx mc is one of the highest volume mc dealers next to that Canadian one. Think they include axis?

skitilldark
04-12-2014, 12:13 AM
IMO it all depends on what your criteria for market leader is. MC probably will never be the market leader as defined by market share simply because they don't build anywhere near the boats that the other competitor brands like Malibu does. Last I heard, Malibu has three plants to MC's one. But I would argue that MC probably is the market leader for used boat values. Simply supply and demand...less MC's, relatively higher resale value. But the real market leader position resides in your head. If you think MC is the market leader, then they are. I do. But then again I've seen how they are built, (and the fact that I have MCOCD), so my opinion will obviously be jaded.

atthelake
04-12-2014, 12:20 AM
I was just looking at texas sales numbers last month on how many each manufacturer sells in my area. Malibu outsold mc by 10 boats (new) and tx mc is one of the highest volume mc dealers next to that Canadian one. Think they include axis?

Where do you find these numbers?

mzimme
04-12-2014, 12:26 AM
Market leader or not, this is easily one of the best group of people/support system of anything automotive I've ever been a part of.

MC25
04-12-2014, 12:27 AM
Where do you find these numbers?

Dealers have access to it.

MC25
04-12-2014, 12:27 AM
Market leader or not, this is easily one of the best group of people/support system of anything automotive I've ever been a part of.

My name is aric and i have an addiction... hahaha

mzimme
04-12-2014, 12:28 AM
My name is aric and i have an addiction... hahaha

I hear ya.. I love this forum. My boat shares lots of parts with the MC's, and the help here is leaps and bounds better than anything I find on the SC forums.

craig3972
04-12-2014, 12:30 AM
Glad i'm not the only loser home on a friday night with nothing else to do!

thatsmrmastercraft
04-12-2014, 12:32 AM
You're definitely not the only one.

GoneBoatN
04-12-2014, 02:17 AM
Glad i'm not the only loser home on a friday night with nothing else to do!

You're definitely not the only one.

Only because it is dark out and I have no driver or flagger; otherwise I'd be behind my boat. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I'm avoiding the the things I should be doing around the house.

epnault
04-12-2014, 04:58 AM
Simple question.... The quality of the MC is leaps better and the dealers that I have met have all been excellent. MC has more features, better ride, more selection. Everyone knows MC name and heritage, why are they not the market leader?

Market share is measured by volume of sales. At this level of boat and cost, market share doesn't validate the qualities you mentioned. Kind of like comparing a Taurus to Porsche.

bturner2
04-12-2014, 06:41 AM
Exactly. Is Ferrari a market leader? Aston Martin? Bugatti? Depends on criteria and the local market.

The BU dealer by me is a selling machine. I'm sure they're outselling MC 2:1. My dealer has great service compared to the BU dealer but the BU dealer does a much better job in price and marketing IMO. In the past they've sponsored more skiers held more events and one of the owner's wife was/is a national recognized tournament skier. That relationship broke up this last year and I've already heard rumblings from some of their long time customers about leaving the fold. Should be interesting if the remaining owner can hold things together or if he'll screw it up. Most are expecting the later as his relationship with the skiing community comes apart.

soacj
04-12-2014, 06:59 AM
one of the owner's wife

Must be in Utah;)

I'm much more interested in MC's (imo well deserved) reputation than their market share.

FourFourty
04-12-2014, 07:07 AM
Go to a boat show, and ask around outside the MasterCraft booth what people think of MC. You'll see why they aren't the market leader pretty quick.

Elaborate.....



As for the answer to Bama's question- It is terribly simple. MC was the market leader, until Malibu started a whole new boat company, with all different designed boats, with a completely different sales demographic.... And then tacked those sales numbers onto Malibu.

Axis is your answer. Plain and simple. Axis is over 35% of Malibu sales now, and are dragging sales away from Moomba, MB, Tige, etc. Those are the mfg that have seen a hit from Malibu in recent years. Not really MC or CC. They have been maintaining the same relative level of Market share.

I am sure surfgate gave A little bump in sales for Malibu in its introduction year as well, but not a significant impact.

The intro of Axis was brilliant. It is not a Malibu, and everyone knows that. However, it is manufactured by Malibu, and everyone knows that. For the average person who needs to be 50-60k deep on a new boat, and not a penny more...... I am buying Axis......because "almost Malibu".

H2ORidr
04-12-2014, 07:27 AM
Why do more people shop a Walmart vs Nordstrom? Nordstrom has far better customer service and quality is much better. It always comes down to price or perceived price. I work for a company that sells the best products for a good price. We see competitors sell junk for cheaper or even similar prices, yet customers still go with the cheaper stuff. Better sales people, cost, perception, any number of things drive their purchase and price is one of the bigger factors. It can be $0.02 cheaper, and that is enough to swing the purchase to a competitor.

Fortunately we have a new class of products that our competitor's cannot touch with a ten foot pole. We are taking business from them left and right (all of them foreign competitors) and it feels good. And it is 100% made in the USA in Minnesota. :D

Here is a shameless plug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W3CdwGR0NY

Snipe
04-12-2014, 09:28 AM
Simple question.... The quality of the MC is leaps better and the dealers that I have met have all been excellent. MC has more features, better ride, more selection. Everyone knows MC name and heritage, why are they not the market leader?

Simple...you get what you pay for. How many Caddies on the road vs Fords , Chevys??? Compare quality. I did and HAD to move on to MC. :woohoo:

mikeg205
04-12-2014, 09:36 AM
Simple question.... The quality of the MC is leaps better and the dealers that I have met have all been excellent. MC has more features, better ride, more selection. Everyone knows MC name and heritage, why are they not the market leader?

Okay - what do you mean by market leader? Most units sold? Highest quality brand?

AlbertaSurfer
04-12-2014, 10:14 AM
FourFourty Elaborate.....

Well. MasterCraft carries a very widespread stigma of being overpriced and over the top. Meandering around the boat show in Edmonton this year, it didn't take long to find the common theme. Sitting in the Moomba, directly across from the MC booth, the comment of,"or you could go over there and spend too much", could be heard frequently. Same dealer by the way, for SC and MC. The Centurion booth scoffed at the MC line. The Nautique/Malibu guy happily advertised himself as the quality decision.

Are they right? I suppose that's in the eye of the consumer. But it definitely doesn't help sales when more affordable boats advertise themselves as having "everything you need, and nothing you don't" when the boats are side by side. There's merit in that statement too. Billet aluminum is expensive, cameras in the tower playable on the dash screen are not necessary, $10,000 towers add to the overall cost where $3000 towers help out. Definitely, you get what you pay for, but I can see where consumers can be swayed.

mikeg205
04-12-2014, 10:19 AM
[QUOTE=FourFourty;1032676]Elaborate.....

Well. MasterCraft carries a very widespread stigma of being overpriced and over the top. Meandering around the boat show in Edmonton this year, it didn't take long to find the common theme. Sitting in the Moomba, directly across from the MC booth, the comment of,"or you could go over there and spend too much", could be heard frequently. Same dealer by the way, for SC and MC. The Centurion booth scoffed at the MC line. The Nautique/Malibu guy happily advertised himself as the quality decision.

Are they right? I suppose that's in the eye of the consumer. But it definitely doesn't help sales when more affordable boats advertise themselves as having "everything you need, and nothing you don't" when the boats are side by side. There's merit in that statement too. Billet aluminum is expensive, cameras in the tower playable on the dash screen are not necessary, $10,000 towers add to the overall cost where $3000 towers help out. Definitely, you get what you pay for, but I can see where consumers can be swayed.


not everyone drives a Lambo either ;) -- just sayin'

AlbertaSurfer
04-12-2014, 10:22 AM
No, I get that, I'm just offering opinion on the OP's question.

I'm not claiming the other dealers are right, but I don't see MC as a Lambo either.

scott023
04-12-2014, 10:25 AM
If the OP is referring to pure sales numbers for determining market leader, the answer is simple: price.

Rossterman
04-12-2014, 10:33 AM
Market leaders typically share a few common traits:

1. Knows the customer market and what they desire
2. Provides the most value for the money relative to peers
3. Respected for integrity and the reliability of their products

If that doesn't work, have a huge advertising budget instead!

mikeg205
04-12-2014, 10:34 AM
No, I get that, I'm just offering opinion on the OP's question.

I'm not claiming the other dealers are right, but I don't see MC as a Lambo either.

was just adding to your comment. Interesting comments - The Super Air's are not any cheaper. Moomba's aren't bad, Supra's are nice.. but for some reason the MC owners who are on this board are much more enthusiastic then the other boards - even EastTX stayed on this board -my MC is 19 years old - I see more vintage MC's than other boats on my waterways.. from that standpoint I see them as a leader.

From a price feature standpoint - the top three are all pricey. There are many Tahoe's sold and a fully tricked out Q7i comes in a about $47K - Hence the NXT right?

friend picked up a new 2013 Wakesetter 23 LSV for $80K - that would be hard to pass up if you were in the market for a new boat. I'd be hard pressed to spend another $30 even $50K - lol if I was ever able to do so ;)

mikeg205
04-12-2014, 10:37 AM
Market leaders typically share a few common traits:

1. Knows the customer market and what they desire
2. Provides the most value for the money relative to peers
3. Respected for integrity and the reliability of their products

If that doesn't work, have a huge advertising budget instead!

..................

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Nick911
04-12-2014, 10:48 AM
I for one enjoy the fact that there are less MC's around. I'd rather be exclusive than inclusive. My boating lake there are at least 15-20 new Tige's and Malibu's for every new MC or Nautique. I'd prefer to be unique than just another RZ2.

scott023
04-12-2014, 11:07 AM
I for one enjoy the fact that there are less MC's around. I'd rather be exclusive than inclusive. My boating lake there are at least 15-20 new Tige's and Malibu's for every new MC or Nautique. I'd prefer to be unique than just another RZ2.

I'm with you Nick. Uniqueness has value, in my mind.

501s
04-12-2014, 11:30 AM
The thing about this question is all the other Manufacturers are breaking that $100k mark on their upper tier boats (Tige, Supra, ect...) You can now get a nicely loaded X-30 for about the same price as a Z3 or Supra SA. So it's not like MC is priced all that much higher than these other brands, they just don't have any "cheap" models out to compete with the cheaper boats ..... yet.

While at my local dealer chatting, average Moombas 22.5 footers are now going out the door for between 70-75. They also told me they have virtually no X-30's left for 2014 to order, so it's not like MC is short on sales.

I think while MC might not be the "sales leader" they are definitely one of the market leaders in terms of quality and innovation.

Nick911
04-12-2014, 11:44 AM
The guy we rent our lakefront home from is a rich guy but uses an I/O at the lake. He made a comment to me that his buddy was coming by with his new Bu LSV. He said something along the lines that "he paid 104K for it, not on same tier as your boat, but good enough for him." I told him I didn't even spend that on my boat. He said (he grew up on the lake) that he always thought MC's were the best.

So I think that conception is still out there to an extent. I don't worry much about it. I could easily buy a G21-23 for my next boat. I like the fact that you just don't see them, so the perception is that they are rarer, more exclusive, lore expensive, etc...

Tristarboarder
04-12-2014, 11:54 AM
They definitely are more expensive....I looked at (for fun, no $) a 2013 G23 at a dealer last year, and the sticker was north of 110k....I think resale value and the used market truly indicate the strengths and weaknesses of a boat manufacturer. Used MC's hold their value pretty well; and when purchasing a depreciating asset (boat, car, RV, etc) that is most important to me.

atthelake
04-12-2014, 12:27 PM
I for one enjoy the fact that there are less MC's around. I'd rather be exclusive than inclusive. My boating lake there are at least 15-20 new Tige's and Malibu's for every new MC or Nautique. I'd prefer to be unique than just another RZ2.

Agreed.

atthelake
04-12-2014, 12:32 PM
They definitely are more expensive....I looked at (for fun, no $) a 2013 G23 at a dealer last year, and the sticker was north of 110k....I think resale value and the used market truly indicate the strengths and weaknesses of a boat manufacturer. Used MC's hold their value pretty well; and when purchasing a depreciating asset (boat, car, RV, etc) that is most important to me.

Even just comparing boat for boat, year for year on Wizard Lake Marine's website for used boats, they're asking alot more for used MC's than the "comparable" (cough cough) Malibu.

Snipe
04-12-2014, 01:15 PM
I for one enjoy the fact that there are less MC's around. I'd rather be exclusive than inclusive. My boating lake there are at least 15-20 new Tige's and Malibu's for every new MC or Nautique. I'd prefer to be unique than just another RZ2.

You sure nailed this one. At our lake we have a lot of Nautiques ( I too HAD one). I'm so grateful I was able to make the switch. No problems, just complements. :banana:

Indyxc
04-12-2014, 06:38 PM
It is an interesting topic. From the Malibu IPO we get some good data for market share:

http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=9307324

It's clear Malibu's market share is steadily growing. I believe that filing probably includes Axis boats in that filing.

It is also clear that growth in market share has come largely due to Skier's Choice and Nautique both of which have steadily lost market share. MC was holding steady, except 2011-12.

In my opinion MC has always held the differentiation strategy, where they maintained the higher end market, and sold a lower volume, at a higher profit market. Malibu in the past was more of a mid range brand. As they increased the price point of the Malibu boats they realized that they needed a more value of a brand to cover the lower end, hence Axis. Therefore Malibu of the big 3 has the biggest range of price/boat offerings.

It is also interesting to note that now since Master craft is responding with the NXT series they want to capture some of the value brand market share.

Surfgate was a brilliant introduction for Malibu as well. They really led the market on surf shaping devices that garnered attention.

mikeg205
04-12-2014, 07:09 PM
It is an interesting topic. From the Malibu IPO we get some good data for market share:

http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=9307324

It's clear Malibu's market share is steadily growing. I believe that filing probably includes Axis boats in that filing.

It is also clear that growth in market share has come largely due to Skier's Choice and Nautique both of which have steadily lost market share. MC was holding steady, except 2011-12.

In my opinion MC has always held the differentiation strategy, where they maintained the higher end market, and sold a lower volume, at a higher profit market. Malibu in the past was more of a mid range brand. As they increased the price point of the Malibu boats they realized that they needed a more value of a brand to cover the lower end, hence Axis. Therefore Malibu of the big 3 has the biggest range of price/boat offerings.

It is also interesting to note that now since Master craft is responding with the NXT series they want to capture some of the value brand market share.

Surfgate was a brilliant introduction for Malibu as well. They really led the market on surf shaping devices that garnered attention.


Ah an IPO - we'll see how this fairs.. when shareholder equity has to be maintained...

jsturvey
04-12-2014, 10:43 PM
Okay, here is something to consider. I do believe that Master Craft is a leader in overall design. Now I am not certain which boat builder put out the first VD ski boat, but it seems to me that after MC began building the MariStar, all the other manufacturers followed with a boat with the same lines and versatility, and quickly there after we saw VD boats like it everywhere. The same is true with with the pickle fork. Master Craft did it first. A few years later, CC and Malibu, and others even on the I/O side (Cobalt I think) are now manufacturing boats with their own version of what Master Craft did first. Malibu has their Surfgate, (I'll give them that) but CC has done nothing unique to put them into the category of an industry leader. In fact, I'd consider all the others followers.

jdhart73
04-12-2014, 10:49 PM
Quality boats for the working man

http://i60.tinypic.com/2lcwu1e.jpg

scott023
04-12-2014, 11:12 PM
Quality boats for the working man

http://i60.tinypic.com/2lcwu1e.jpg

:uglyhamme

JDK
04-13-2014, 01:53 AM
It is also clear that growth in market share has come largely due to Skier's Choice and Nautique both of which have steadily lost market share. MC was holding steady, except 2011-12..

I think you need to re-read the table in the report.
2008 2013 - as of Sept. 30
MC 23.8% 19.7%
CC 15.2 % 15.5%
BU 23.2% 32.9%
SC 16.9% 12.9%
Seems to me that BU's growth has come partially at MC's expense and not CC.

Indyxc
04-13-2014, 07:50 PM
I think you need to re-read the table in the report.
2008 2013 - as of Sept. 30
MC 23.8% 19.7%
CC 15.2 % 15.5%
BU 23.2% 32.9%
SC 16.9% 12.9%
Seems to me that BU's growth has come partially at MC's expense and not CC.

I had the chart kind of misaligned! doh. Shame on me.

Well between 2008 and 2011 MC's market share was essentially flat. Then it took a dip of 5% market share from 2011 to 2013, which corresponds both with with the launch of Axis and Surfgate.

You're right Nautique stayed basically flat, then gained marketshare slightly in 2013. Interesting to note Skier's pier brands are on the downhill.

mikeg205
04-16-2014, 01:55 PM
Interesting read... http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/19/why-this-boat-manufactuer-is-a-cut-above-the-rest.aspx

52 week range - 16.67 - 24.90

today is $21.42.

Will be interesting how the industry progresses.

bamabonners
04-16-2014, 02:45 PM
Here is the part that grabs my attention:

Malibu Boats boasts margins superior to those of its peers. For the trailing 12 months, it delivered EBITDA margins of 19.4%, compared with margins of 10.6% and 5.3% for Brunswick and Marine Products, respectively.

IN MY OPINION, Malibu builds the cheapest boat of the "big 3". It floors me why they can continue to charge what they do for thier boats.

thatsmrmastercraft
04-16-2014, 03:22 PM
Here is the part that grabs my attention:

Malibu Boats boasts margins superior to those of its peers. For the trailing 12 months, it delivered EBITDA margins of 19.4%, compared with margins of 10.6% and 5.3% for Brunswick and Marine Products, respectively.

IN MY OPINION, Malibu builds the cheapest boat of the "big 3". It floors me why they can continue to charge what they do for thier boats.

Malibu is only part of the big 3 by their own claim. Most people I know look at Mastercraft and Correct Craft as the leaders with Bu falling into tier 2 classification.

MC25
04-16-2014, 08:00 PM
I have to disagree. While in the past their boats weren't all that up to MC and CC par, but ive spent quite a lot of time in a 14 23lsv and it definitely is a tier one boat.


Now the market share question, I would say CC is hammering out some of the best boats right now with MC in a close second. Malibu cheats by using axis in their numbers. Lol.

Nick911
04-16-2014, 09:06 PM
I have to disagree. While in the past their boats weren't all that up to MC and CC par, but ive spent quite a lot of time in a 14 23lsv and it definitely is a tier one boat.


Now the market share question, I would say CC is hammering out some of the best boats right now with MC in a close second. Malibu cheats by using axis in their numbers. Lol.


Elaborate.

ap77
04-16-2014, 09:08 PM
I like Malibu boats, but would say they are a slight step behind MC and CC from a quality perspective. That said, their pricing is lower so it could be said they are a better value.

FoggyNogginz
04-16-2014, 09:21 PM
I am a huge MC fan, and somewhat addicted to this forum. However, I do have several friends that have switched to Malibu for surfing because of the simplicity of getting a clean wave and a crisp lip behind the VLX and LSV. The G23 has captured some attention on my lake as well. (Prior to the launch of the X46 and new X10).

For many years I felt like MC was squarely focused on skiing, and abruptly switched to a wakeboarding focus with little innovation on the sport that put them on the map. Then somewhere in the middle, they missed the surfing market for a few years while their counterparts began to outsmart them both in style and perceived innovation (my opinion - everyone had one - YMMV). They have made great strides in recent times though, with the new Prostar, X46, X10, X30, Gen 2Surf system, ZFT towers, etc...but this took some time and a few missteps IMHO. Having the senior leadership turn over in the late 90's and again at the beginning of this decade is very apparent in many ways....and a lot of those folks are now running companies like Skier's Choice for Moomba and Supra. So it's really a small industry with a fair amount of turnover at times too, and this makes waves in sales, vendor management, distribution, etc.

As for margins, I wouldn't imagine that the exclusive relationship with Ilmor did much to help when we consider the supply/demand and volume curves. Nor do I think that the ridiculous electronics of the 2012 systems did much at a critical time to improve sales. In the long scope of things, I still believe that MC has the best resale value though, and they are committed to watersports innovation with quality which I respect. They have made some bad management calls over the years though which are discussed at great length elsewhere on this forum. I imagine that the same can be said for Malibu and Correct Craft over the years though, and to stay strong for 46 years in this evolving industry is quite impressive. Especially through years of economic ups and downs in an industry that is clearly not targeted at those with an average salary.

My $0.02

dlamont
04-17-2014, 01:27 PM
Malibu would still be #1 without Axis included in the numbers.

FourFourty
04-17-2014, 02:11 PM
^ If so, it would be an extremely small advantage. Axis is over 35% of their sales now...... Take that out of the equation, and they have only about 20% Market share.....

Not to mention, Axis is not a brand that has a parasitic effect on Malibu (or MC and CC). It is a whole separate market demographic.

FoggyNogginz
04-17-2014, 02:56 PM
^ If so, it would be an extremely small advantage. Axis is over 35% of their sales now...... Take that out of the equation, and they have only about 20% Market share.....

Not to mention, Axis is not a brand that has a parasitic effect on Malibu (or MC and CC). It is a whole separate market demographic.

It will be interesting to see what NXT does for MC too.

neil.anderson63
04-17-2014, 03:42 PM
Interesting thread :popcorn: We looked at and considered several different brands before we bought our 2nd Mastercraft. Kept an open mind and weighed quality, resale, total package for $$$ and reliability. We looked for the right boat at the right price for almost 9 months - Mastercraft stayed at the top of the list throughout the whole search. We also had a Tige in the mix for a bit. There are certain things we liked about other manufacturers. However, when you look at all the features and quality you get for your money at purchase and what you retain at resale - Mastercraft wins. The numbers? I could care less who sells more units at the end of the year. I'm happy with our purchase and proud to be in the Mastercraft family.

madcityskier
04-17-2014, 05:48 PM
Simple question.... The quality of the MC is leaps better and the dealers that I have met have all been excellent. MC has more features, better ride, more selection. Everyone knows MC name and heritage, why are they not the market leader?

Gave up on reading this entire thread, so sorry if this has already been said. So when you say Market Leader, is that strictly a sales volume question? For most other factors I think they are the market leader.

MC25
04-17-2014, 07:19 PM
In terms of watersports performance, I think MC is losing market share because they are becoming soft "do it all" boats. Out of the box, mc is not making the best wakes by any means. I would like to see the sales numbers when the 2nd gen x star was still raining king of new wake boats.


*not saying any of these wakes are below my level of riding, just like big wakes!

FourFourty
04-18-2014, 07:26 AM
^ well, the market leading boat company is no better in that regard. If anything, out of the box Malibu wakes are smaller. It takes more additional weight to slump the average Bu, not to mention, the compartments are smaller, and not as easy to fit added ballast. (Except for lockers, which are about the same size on average)

Also, Malibu tends to run flatter bottoms, which requires more weight. They sure do handle nice though!!

No doubt that CC has the right idea with the G series..... Big ballast with big storage. All of the other boat companies lack in that regard, not just MC. That being said, it is a trade off on looks. I prefer to have a sleeker looking boat, and dedicate my lockers to ballast. Sure, I would love my lockers back, but I don't want the "barge" look.

JohnE
04-18-2014, 08:29 AM
In terms of watersports performance, I think MC is losing market share because they are becoming soft "do it all" boats. Out of the box, mc is not making the best wakes by any means. I would like to see the sales numbers when the 2nd gen x star was still raining king of new wake boats.


*not saying any of these wakes are below my level of riding, just like big wakes!

I really don't understand your logic. Every boat they have now is an improvement on what was available in their largest sales/ production year which is 06 for sales and 07 for production I believe. The new prostar blows away the 197, the Xstar is an improvement over the previous (arguably I know in terms of wake which is subjective, but certainly every other aspect - and admittedly I am not much of a boarder), The X10 and X30 do everything better than the X15 and old X30. What exactly are you looking for? MC boats are far from "getting soft". If you want to make the argument that another brand boat does something better, go for it. But I really find the statement that MC is getting soft to be ridiculous. Are you really saying that CC is now reigning king of the wakes?

Nordicron
04-18-2014, 09:12 AM
johnE: yes I'd say with the G series that Nautique is the reigning king of the wakes. Id also agree with you though that the current gen boats aren't softer than the older gen but MC did struggle a bit getting there: last to go to 2pt tower, last to have a surf system, last to get decent software, and it lets not forget the whole dropping Indmar thing. All the while raising their prices 10%+ each year. Those are quite a few shake ups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AlbertaSurfer
04-18-2014, 09:40 AM
JohnE - I wouldn't say that CC is "now" the reigning king of wakes, I'd say they always were. Granted, the new Prostar is shaping up to be awesome, but the DD Nautiques have dominated the slalom wakes arena for a long time. The G Series boats and the NSS work. Huge ballast and a simple and effective surf system. MasterCraft was lacking in the surf department, so they replaced their bags and tabs system... with bags and custom tabs. Really pushed the innovation boundaries there. Wakeboard Magazine just published a list of the "Best 2014 Wakesurf Boats" with no MC on the list. Now of course one can argue the validity of that list, but rest assured if the X46 was at the top, bragging rights would be had around here. The 210, 230, G23 & G25 are all in there, as well as 2 Axis and 2 Wakesetter models.

Before everyone piles on, I'm sure the Gen 2 surf system works great, and I hope owners of the new boats are satisfied and proud of their purchases. They are all great boats. It just seems that on here there a lot of "apples to oranges" type comparisons made when referencing other brands, when maybe a "Macintosh to Ambrosia" comparison is more fair.

Not acknowledging an argument for another brand, doesn't mean an argument can't be made.

JohnE
04-18-2014, 09:52 AM
Nordicron and Alberta Surfer: My point wasn't to get into a comparison between MC and the other brands.....my point was in assessing MC vs. themselves. I just disagree that MC is soft. If other manufacturers have a better product in anyone's mind I'm cool with that. I posted a couple years ago that if I were buying a new slalom boat it would probably not be a MC. (That's changed now with the new boat)

Retoxtony
04-18-2014, 03:04 PM
I think one thing that may be hurting sales a bit is MCs slow jump into the surfing thing. The new Gen2 system will help that some but Malibu and Nautique really nailed it with surfgate and NSS. Surfing is getting to be as big or bigger than wakeboarding and MC boats tend to have a reputation (deserved or not) as not being that great for surfing.

I do know that if i was looking for a brand new boat i doubt i would really look much at the new MCs. They are nice but they don't really appeal to me as much as some of the other brands. I also loath the MC dealer in my area. Alot of what people here see as second tier boats have really started to catch up in terms of quality and amenities. Even looking at used stuff the last few months i really felt like brands other than MC were a better fit for me. Seemed like i was getting more for my cash as well. I don't care what name is on the side of my boat as long as it does what i want it to.

FourFourty
04-18-2014, 05:25 PM
johnE: yes I'd say with the G series that Nautique is the reigning king of the wakes. Id also agree with you though that the current gen boats aren't softer than the older gen but MC did struggle a bit getting there: last to go to 2pt tower, last to have a surf system, last to get decent software, and it lets not forget the whole dropping Indmar thing. All the while raising their prices 10%+ each year. Those are quite a few shake ups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2 point tower and surf system for sure..... They weren't last on software. Malibu still runs medallion, and they still have more problems than any Murphy system. They are better than they used to be, but still have lots of problems with freezes and wedge calibration.

Dropping indmar was a good thing, and everyone else raised their prices too. Heck, Malibu is right with MC and CC on price now.

acornellier
04-18-2014, 08:33 PM
The product is the best, but the average person can not afford one.

Retoxtony
04-18-2014, 08:49 PM
The product is the best, but the average person can not afford one.

If they can't afford a MC they likely can't afford a Malibu, Nautique, Supra, Tige, Centurion etc. either. I know that at the last boat show I went to the pricing on Nautiques, Mastercraft and Malibu were pretty close with the other manufacturers not far behind. Mastercraft might be at the top of the price range but not by much. Plus with 15 year loans on these boats, a lot more average people can buy them than you'd think.

KahunaCraft
04-18-2014, 08:50 PM
The Medallion to Murphy debate...it lives on.

AlbertaSurfer
04-19-2014, 03:59 AM
Blasphemy!!!

Naw, I 100% agree Retox. Each of these boats has a specific market, and I'm not one to pretend that the name on the side puts me in the demographic. If I'm spending 50k on an NXT, then what do I get in a Moomba for more? Or a Malibu? Or does buying a 2007 at $50k just to have the MC name put me ahead of a 2014 Centurion really? There are many factors easily thrown out in the MasterCraft forum, which I 100% understand, but I completely disagree. Buying a 12 year old MasterCraft doesn't put you ahead of buying a 2 year old Moomba.

There's so much value in so many boats available right now, I have a hard time seeing the need to spend so much on a boat that offers really so little. If I'm buying a new boat tomorrow, which I am next season, I can confirm there's nothing in the MC line for me. Now before this statement is cast off as Internet drivel, it's important to note that I am a consumer, and will be taking my new boat purchase elsewhere. Not due to funds of course, but 100% due to value for my money.

FoggyNogginz
04-19-2014, 10:48 PM
Ummm, okay. Something I hope you realize that you're also making an argument for is that value is something that is independently measured. What is important to you might not be important to others... And vice versa. I would argue that if you've seen a 20-year-old Moomba and compare it to a 20-year-old Mastercraft you will absolutely find a difference, so in the long run the value may be perceived. I'm not here to try and change your mind, but you should realize that your opinion is exactly that and others may have a difference in opinion because of how they perceive value. For example, one of the things that I see value in is this forum which you are on as well.

I will say that I find it humorous when you say that these boats offer so little. If this were true, I'm not sure why every other boat manufacturer would be comparing themselves to Mastercraft. It makes little difference to me, because this forum is really about the love of boats in general, and you rarely see this group genuinely bashing any other manufacturers. In fact, there are several active threads right now where this group is helping people buy boats that are not Mastercraft, and this says something about the quality of the people. I've had boats from other manufacturers as well, and several of the popular posters on this forum own other brands also. There are many others here who certainly see a lot of value in our Mastercraft though which is why we continue to purchase them. Yes, they are quite expensive and a long way from cheap. However I kept my last one for nine years, and I just sold it for 8000 less than I spent on it originally. This means that I spent less than $1000 a year to own my last Mastercraft and that's a pretty fantastic deal in my opinion. In my experience, this type of resell value is very rare in the boating industry.

Nick911
04-20-2014, 12:46 AM
^^well said.

AlbertaSurfer
04-20-2014, 01:27 AM
FoggyNoggins:

What I meant by the value statement wasn't to mean that MasterCraft has no value or offers little. I just mean for the difference in cash, it's a hard argument for me to swallow. When the sticker price of Nautique, MC and some Malibu can literally double some of the other brands, it's hard to justify for me. But that's just for me. If others have $125k walking around cash to drop on a new Star, fill your boots, I simply don't see it as a good buy. Today, there's still 24" of ice on my lake, and it'll be frozen again by Halloween, so spending that much on a boat to sit in my garage isn't smart.

My argument is that for the market I'm in, I'm glad there's new boats at a price point that makes sense, NXT included. I'm not looking at the NXT because I'm not a fan of the look, but that price point for my short season fits the bill. Of course, you get what you pay for, but for myself, there's a lot I don't need, so there's less value. For a brand new boat, MC only has one model in the price point I'm willing to pay, mostly due to not wanting to finance, so I'll look elsewhere and not feel for a minute that I've had to settle for less.

While I will agree that a 14 y/o MC looks better than a 14 y/o Moomba, I'd argue that a 10 year old of each in a 2014 model will have less of a difference come 2024.

Snipe
04-20-2014, 05:52 AM
Ummm, okay. Something I hope you realize that you're also making an argument for is that value is something that is independently measured. What is important to you might not be important to others... And vice versa. I would argue that if you've seen a 20-year-old Moomba and compare it to a 20-year-old Mastercraft you will absolutely find a difference, so in the long run the value may be perceived. I'm not here to try and change your mind, but you should realize that your opinion is exactly that and others may have a difference in opinion because of how they perceive value. For example, one of the things that I see value in is this forum which you are on as well.

I will say that I find it humorous when you say that these boats offer so little. If this were true, I'm not sure why every other boat manufacturer would be comparing themselves to Mastercraft. It makes little difference to me, because this forum is really about the love of boats in general, and you rarely see this group genuinely bashing any other manufacturers. In fact, there are several active threads right now where this group is helping people buy boats that are not Mastercraft, and this says something about the quality of the people. I've had boats from other manufacturers as well, and several of the popular posters on this forum own other brands also. There are many others here who certainly see a lot of value in our Mastercraft though which is why we continue to purchase them. Yes, they are quite expensive and a long way from cheap. However I kept my last one for nine years, and I just sold it for 8000 less than I spent on it originally. This means that I spent less than $1000 a year to own my last Mastercraft and that's a pretty fantastic deal in my opinion. In my experience, this type of resell value is very rare in the boating industry.

^^well said.

I will ECHO that!!:headbang:

FoggyNogginz
04-20-2014, 08:28 AM
FoggyNoggins:

While I will agree that a 14 y/o MC looks better than a 14 y/o Moomba, I'd argue that a 10 year old of each in a 2014 model will have less of a difference come 2024.


This may absolutely be true, but to be honest it's a financial gamble. Resale values are driven by market perceptions of value, and much less by technical reality. Culture change takes a very long time, and changing public perception can take even longer. The perception for quite some time was that there was only one quality leader, and that was MC. The industry as a whole has come along way in the last few years and admittedly the Moomba, Nautique, and Malibu have made exceptional strides. At the same time, there are many others here who openly tell you that Mastercraft has certainly not made all of the right decisions over the years as well (myself included), and I would say that this is true at some level for anyone in business on a global scale over time. The trick to overcoming failures in a fast-paced market though is to fail fast, learn from those mistakes, and quickly make corrections to move forward. Personally, I have seen Mastercraft do this several times. Just as we have all seen Apple, Microsoft, Samsung, Ford, and many other popular brands do the same.

My final point in this long-winded, ADD fueled rant, is that you should be sure to consider total cost of ownership above the initial acquisition cost when looking at your boat; unless of course you plan on keeping it for 25 years. As I mentioned before, my last boat wound up averaging a total cost of around $1000 per year for the life that I owned it. Of course this cost per year increases as you buy newer models closer to the release date, and this is the same for cars, electronics, and almost all big-ticket items. I just saved $22,000 in acquisition costs (not TCO) by purchasing a boat that is two years old, and I have never purchased a vehicle new in my life because you seem to lose thousands the minute you drive one off the lot. That money that I saved upfront helps lower my cost of entry for new buyers when I consider reselling the boat, and because I've chosen a product that is seen as a market leader, I expect to get a top dollar return on this "life investment" as well. (side note: For the finance majors in the room, I realize that I am not considering things such as opportunity cost into this calculation. The acquisition money does have to come from somewhere, and I realize that that may often include interest fees, or be money that should otherwise be in someone's retirement account earning capital gains. Total financial management is a much larger conversation, and that would be a debate that I would rarely enter into.)

These are just a few things to consider before you sign on the dotted line. As I said before I'm not here to change your mind or debate gelcoat color schemes for days as we sometimes do on this forum (guilty). I simply wanted to express how value maybe calculated to others and offer a few things to consider.

Good luck with your purchase and enjoy your time on the lake!! That's what it's all about.

bcd
04-20-2014, 08:32 AM
Wakeboard Magazine just published a list of the "Best 2014 Wakesurf Boats" with no MC on the list.

Isn't it blatently obvious that anytime they do boat reviews, the only boats that get mentioned are the ones the boat manufacturers pay them to mention? MC must have forgotten to send in their check.

FoggyNogginz
04-20-2014, 08:37 AM
Isn't it blatently obvious that anytime they do boat reviews, the only boats that get mentioned are the ones the boat manufacturers pay them to mention? MC must have forgotten to send in their check.


I also noticed that Waterski magazine completely left Mastercraft off of the boat reviews this year, after 20 years of praise. Mastercraft has not been advertising in this magazine much at all, yet the very next month they had a full-page ad on the back cover. I doubt this was a coincidence.

scott023
04-20-2014, 10:28 AM
Isn't it blatently obvious that anytime they do boat reviews, the only boats that get mentioned are the ones the boat manufacturers pay them to mention? MC must have forgotten to send in their check.

Yes, its blatantly obvious.

Ash
04-20-2014, 12:35 PM
Last I heard, Malibu has three plants to MC's one.


Incorrect. One plant in TN and one in Australia. I highly doubt Australian numbers are bought into the fold on this either, and they don't sell huge numbers down there.

scott023
04-20-2014, 02:59 PM
Incorrect. One plant in TN and one in Australia. I highly doubt Australian numbers are bought into the fold on this either, and they don't sell huge numbers down there.

Really? When did they closer the plant in Merced, California?

06x2
04-20-2014, 04:55 PM
Malibu is only part of the big 3 by their own claim. Most people I know look at Mastercraft and Correct Craft as the leaders with Bu falling into tier 2 classification.

my thoughts exactly

came from a bu was ok but nothing like my mastercraft

AlbertaSurfer
04-20-2014, 05:17 PM
my thoughts exactly

came from a bu was ok but nothing like my mastercraft

Holding over 1/4 of the market share alone, and 1/3 with the Axis numbers included, I'd have to argue Malibu is a top tier boat. Have to give credit where credit is due.

Not claiming they're better than MasterCraft, but they definitely belong in the conversation with MC and Nautique.

scott023
04-20-2014, 07:23 PM
Holding over 1/4 of the market share alone, and 1/3 with the Axis numbers included, I'd have to argue Malibu is a top tier boat. Have to give credit where credit is due.

Not claiming they're better than MasterCraft, but they definitely belong in the conversation with MC and Nautique.

Market share doesn't necessarily equal quality. That is what my understanding of MC and CC being top tier was, not sales numbers.

MC25
04-20-2014, 07:24 PM
Have you been in a 2014 Malibu though? They are a well deserved top tier boat.

AlbertaSurfer
04-20-2014, 09:27 PM
Market share doesn't necessarily equal quality. That is what my understanding of MC and CC being top tier was, not sales numbers.

If they weren't nice, would that many people buy them? A few sure, but the largest market share? One can't under-estimate Malibu's quality.

This Wakesetter belongs to a friend of mine. There's not one aspect of this boat that doesn't measure up to a MasterCraft or a Nautique. There's a reason they're holding top spot. They sell a great boat at a more affordable price, however so slightly more affordable. SurfGate helps sales too, for sure. Surfing is easily the most popular watersport right now, and SurfGate works.

scott023
04-20-2014, 10:06 PM
If they weren't nice, would that many people buy them? A few sure, but the largest market share? One can't under-estimate Malibu's quality.

This Wakesetter belongs to a friend of mine. There's not one aspect of this boat that doesn't measure up to a MasterCraft or a Nautique. There's a reason they're holding top spot. They sell a great boat at a more affordable price, however so slightly more affordable. SurfGate helps sales too, for sure. Surfing is easily the most popular watersport right now, and SurfGate works.

I wasn't expressing my personal opinion... Just what my impression of others "top tier" statements lead me to believe. I know, when we were looking for a boat, and when I toured both the MC and Malibu production facilities, there was a difference in build quality. There was a substantial difference in pricing six years ago though, a lot bigger than there is now.

I think the price difference, without doubt, leads to the higher sales number though. If gen 2 lives up to its hype, and the price difference has narrowed, that could lead to MC closing the market share gap. JMO. :D


I'm not in the market for a new boat, so it really doesn't matter to me. I'm just finishing up my own rebuild.

DemolitionMan
04-21-2014, 03:22 PM
I guess MC is falling behind in the aluminum boat market. :D

http://pavati.com/al-24/

MC25
04-21-2014, 03:23 PM
I guess MC is falling behind in the aluminum boat market. :D

http://pavati.com/al-24/

Those pavatis are sick!! i wanna get behind one!

DemolitionMan
04-21-2014, 03:26 PM
johnE: yes I'd say with the G series that Nautique is the reigning king of the wakes. Id also agree with you though that the current gen boats aren't softer than the older gen but MC did struggle a bit getting there: last to go to 2pt tower, last to have a surf system, last to get decent software, and it lets not forget the whole dropping Indmar thing. All the while raising their prices 10%+ each year. Those are quite a few shake ups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is the 2pt tower a upgrade?

DemolitionMan
04-21-2014, 03:27 PM
Those pavatis are sick!! i wanna get behind one!

I thought my mini tower had blind spots.

MC25
04-21-2014, 03:41 PM
johnE: yes I'd say with the G series that Nautique is the reigning king of the wakes. Id also agree with you though that the current gen boats aren't softer than the older gen but MC did struggle a bit getting there: last to go to 2pt tower, last to have a surf system, last to get decent software, and it lets not forget the whole dropping Indmar thing. All the while raising their prices 10%+ each year. Those are quite a few shake ups.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just wanna put it out there that the 10 percent increase is a stupid lie! Dropping Indmar was a good choice, Ilmor is easier to service and doesn't over rate their motors like Indmar.

Nordicron
04-21-2014, 05:49 PM
Just wanna put it out there that the 10 percent increase is a stupid lie! Dropping Indmar was a good choice, Ilmor is easier to service and doesn't over rate their motors like Indmar.


Oh Aric, how is your statement truth? If my statement was a lie then what was the increase? They surely weren't getting cheaper. I know many of you were complaining about the 2012 price increases. Granted 10% was probably a high estimate. As for your statement about llmor, again yes that maybe true now that they are better off now but at the time of the announcement there were many many people not thinking it was such a great idea. Don't forget this thread was asking what might be some reasons people think MC lost market share the last several years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MC25
04-21-2014, 05:57 PM
Oh Aric, how is your statement truth? If my statement was a lie then what was the increase? They surely weren't getting cheaper. I know many of you were complaining about the 2012 price increases. Granted 10% was probably a high estimate. As for your statement about llmor, again yes that maybe true now that they are better off now but at the time of the announcement there were many many people not thinking it was such a great idea. Don't forget this thread was asking what might be some reasons people think MC lost market share the last several years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

10 percent is extremely high, it was more like 3 or 4 percent. Does any boat get cheaper? remember the 40k axis?

FoggyNogginz
04-21-2014, 06:18 PM
Just wanna put it out there that the 10 percent increase is a stupid lie! Dropping Indmar was a good choice, Ilmor is easier to service and doesn't over rate their motors like Indmar.

Sorry...but IMHO my older 5.7 Indmar was light-years easier to work on, and even my dealer says that serviceability is an issue that they struggle with on the Ilmor. I've owned three Indmars and one Ilmor, and I thought things were easier before. Just my opinion...

FoggyNogginz
04-21-2014, 06:24 PM
If they weren't nice, would that many people buy them? A few sure, but the largest market share? One can't under-estimate Malibu's quality.

This Wakesetter belongs to a friend of mine. There's not one aspect of this boat that doesn't measure up to a MasterCraft or a Nautique. There's a reason they're holding top spot. They sell a great boat at a more affordable price, however so slightly more affordable. SurfGate helps sales too, for sure. Surfing is easily the most popular watersport right now, and SurfGate works.

I personally just don't like the interior of the Malibu as much, but that is a personal perception. I have not tried SurfGate, but after surfing behind the VLX a lot in recent years (and yesterday), I think the wedge is more marketing fluff than genuinely innovative. We rarely even deploy the wedge these days, but we sure do double stack ballast bags and create a great wave.

My $.02

501s
04-22-2014, 12:17 AM
My last boat has an Indmar 5.7 and both my new boats have had Ilmors and I definitely prefer the Ilmors for service. There was nothing I preferred about the Indmars. Oil changes are so easy on the Ilmor with the remote oil filter.

FourFourty
04-22-2014, 06:39 AM
The impeller changes are the only thing I have run into that is not as easy on the Ilmore engines. Everything else is easier, and positioned for a longer lifespan and easier service.

CantRepeat
04-22-2014, 07:19 AM
Why not the market leader? Simple, these boats suck balls!!

MarkS
04-22-2014, 07:40 AM
They are

JohnE
04-22-2014, 09:08 AM
Just wanna put it out there that the 10 percent increase is a stupid lie! Dropping Indmar was a good choice, Ilmor is easier to service and doesn't over rate their motors like Indmar.

Oh Aric, how is your statement truth? If my statement was a lie then what was the increase? They surely weren't getting cheaper. I know many of you were complaining about the 2012 price increases. Granted 10% was probably a high estimate. As for your statement about llmor, again yes that maybe true now that they are better off now but at the time of the announcement there were many many people not thinking it was such a great idea. Don't forget this thread was asking what might be some reasons people think MC lost market share the last several years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is well known here that the average price increase for a lot of years was 8%. So calling it 10% is a pretty fair generalization. However, that unjustified price increase is believed to be part of the root cause of the changing of the guard in upper management at MC.

FourFourty
04-22-2014, 09:52 AM
It is well known here that the average price increase for a lot of years was 8%. So calling it 10% is a pretty fair generalization. However, that unjustified price increase is believed to be part of the root cause of the changing of the guard in upper management at MC.

The one thing to keep in mind is that EVERY other boat company had the same general increases in pricing. Based on recent pricing, Malibu had the largest price jump.

bamabonners
04-22-2014, 10:00 AM
If they weren't nice, would that many people buy them? A few sure, but the largest market share? One can't under-estimate Malibu's quality.

This Wakesetter belongs to a friend of mine. There's not one aspect of this boat that doesn't measure up to a MasterCraft or a Nautique. There's a reason they're holding top spot. They sell a great boat at a more affordable price, however so slightly more affordable. SurfGate helps sales too, for sure. Surfing is easily the most popular watersport right now, and SurfGate works.


I have owned a 2011 VLX, a 2012 23 LSV, and when it was time to buy the 3rd one - I went to MC. Malibu is a good boat and has some good features, but overall, they are not MC and Nautique. MC and CC just do all the little things and put those nice finishing touches on the boat....Things that make you understand why you paid a little more. I could write a book on the differences and MY OPINIONS, but the mods would probably delete it. Now, I have full on MCOCD and don't see myself going back!

JohnE
04-22-2014, 11:08 AM
Sorry...but IMHO my older 5.7 Indmar was light-years easier to work on, and even my dealer says that serviceability is an issue that they struggle with on the Ilmor. I've owned three Indmars and one Ilmor, and I thought things were easier before. Just my opinion...

My dealer raves about Ilmor, fwiw.

Ash
04-23-2014, 11:36 AM
Really? When did they closer the plant in Merced, California?

Nearly 3 years ago.

sand2snow22
04-23-2014, 09:59 PM
My sources tell me MC was the market leader, 1st quarter 2014...

06x2
05-04-2014, 05:23 PM
Have you been in a 2014 Malibu though? They are a well deserved top tier boat.

yes I have my buddy just bought a 2014 23lsv a lot better then his former 247 found the fit and finish a lot tighter now but only time will tell he was at the dealer quiet a bit with the old one