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View Full Version : Too much technology ??


bailey78
11-07-2011, 07:33 PM
Does anyone else think MC/ and other companys have taken these boats over the top?? These news boats seem to have more problems than my 97' 190 which has had none, and older boats. Seems to me to much technology to be reliable for 20+ years...

strad
11-07-2011, 08:15 PM
I'm with you there. That's why, when I buy a boat, it's going to be an S & S. It'll tow just as well (for the things I want to do anyways) and look just as good (actually better imho). I'm just not a fan of new stuff in general. Too much depreciation and too much complication to fix at home. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad people buy new stuff. B/c if they didn't, there wouldn't be used stuff out there for people like me to buy.

Skipper
11-07-2011, 08:25 PM
I am a fan of drive by wire. I think it is an excellent feature. I do not like the digital displays that have all of the guage functions on them. I prefer to have old-fashioned guages along with Zero Off on the right and Perfect Pass on the left (speedometer holes).

JimN
11-07-2011, 09:25 PM
Does anyone else think MC/ and other companys have taken these boats over the top?? These news boats seem to have more problems than my 97' 190 which has had none, and older boats. Seems to me to much technology to be reliable for 20+ years...

They wouldn't add new technologies if people didn't ask for it.

11-07-2011, 09:31 PM
I am a fan of drive by wire. I think it is an excellent feature. I do not like the digital displays that have all of the guage functions on them. I prefer to have old-fashioned guages along with Zero Off on the right and Perfect Pass on the left (speedometer holes).

Please don't confuse THROTTLE BY WIRE vs DRIVE BY WIRE

MC is not producing F16s.

[email protected]

mccobmd
11-07-2011, 09:39 PM
That's why I love my 2006, still has gauges but has other modern functions

Lars
11-07-2011, 09:45 PM
I think it's inevitable since these boats are produced in such low volumes (100s to 1000s) compared to cars' electronics (hundreds of thousands) or even iPhones (millions).

Sullivan
11-07-2011, 10:54 PM
The Current Prostar 197 is perfect for technology, I love the 197 for its simplicity compared to the 200 and Txi.

mikeg205
11-07-2011, 11:14 PM
They wouldn't add new technologies if people didn't ask for it.

+1 for this one...however not every market decision is the right one. I have read about many electrical issues on this forum. My '95 runs great... zero off or star gazer would be a great upgrade.

The real question is...is the technology too much for the boats to last for the long term for the used boat market. As long as one can work around some of the high tech to get the motor running that would be great. It would be said to see a 10 year old 2012 x-star head for the salvage yard because you need to $20,000 to get it running after the dash got corroded up.

my .02

h2oskiluvr
11-07-2011, 11:43 PM
I stopped by a MC dealership and a fully "blinged" out x14v was in the showroom and it was getting up to $100k. That is insanity if you ask me. There is such a small number of people who can afford these boats I think the long-term effects on watersports are pretty bad. This is a rich person's hobby and it is getting worse.

pram
11-07-2011, 11:46 PM
+1 for this one...however not every market decision is the right one. I have read about many electrical issues on this forum. My '95 runs great... zero off or star gazer would be a great upgrade.

The real question is...is the technology too much for the boats to last for the long term for the used boat market. As long as one can work around some of the high tech to get the motor running that would be great. It would be said to see a 10 year old 2012 x-star head for the salvage yard because you need to $20,000 to get it running after the dash got corroded up.

my .02

this is a solid question and only time will tell how it will play out

76S&S
11-08-2011, 07:57 AM
They wouldn't add new technologies if people didn't ask for it.

Are people really asking for it or are they just trying to get "one up" on the competition?? Just sayin...

shepherd
11-08-2011, 08:48 AM
I stopped by a MC dealership and a fully "blinged" out x14v was in the showroom and it was getting up to $100k. That is insanity if you ask me. There is such a small number of people who can afford these boats I think the long-term effects on watersports are pretty bad. This is a rich person's hobby and it is getting worse.

Being the selfish person I am... fewer people on the lake is OK by me! ;)

mikeg205
11-08-2011, 09:05 AM
Are people really asking for it or are they just trying to get "one up" on the competition?? Just sayin...

Differentiation and wow factor....you have to admit the tech is really in the "that's way cool category".

As a tech sales and marketing guy everything I have launched and sold has decreased in cost and price over time...i.e. PC's etc. Sorry if I go off on my economics....but the issue is utility...yeah people will think its cool but if the marine tech does not stand up - it will fail...the more it fails - if it does - the folks at Moomba and Supra will love it.

On the other hand if MC just wants to be the premier provider and there's enough disposable income in the target market they will be just fine...the used market and us hoping for a new MC will wind up looking elsewhere or hanging on and refurbing what we have.

My '95 PS 205 sold for $25,500 when new...with inflation that value would be $37,700 today. Is there really $20K more value in the boat - besides a catalytic converter, Perfect pass more engine computer diagnostics and monitoring?

Anyway...I see people here talking about thier 2012's...it will be interesting to see what they are saying over the next few years.

JimN
11-08-2011, 09:52 AM
Are people really asking for it or are they just trying to get "one up" on the competition?? Just sayin...

I would say it's both. Competition is always a major cause of technological changes. The main problem I think has occurred is failure due to less than perfect maintenance and/or repairs & diagnostics. Customers don't take their boats to the dealer as often as they should and try to make repairs without the proper tools, knowledge and techniques. Dealers aren't necessarily keeping qualified techs or making sure the techs they have are trained to the extent that they can reliably diagnose ALL kinds of problems in the boats, they aren't keeping needed parts in stock and they aren't making their customers want to take their boats in for service because there's no sense that the job will be done right, quickly and that they'll be treated well. I don't think paint/gel coat/fiberglass or upholstery are a main requirement- these don't fall under "general service"- they're specialized skills that can take longer to learn than servicing an engine, assuming some knowledge of how engines work when the tech starts training.

The one thing dealers and service techs need to learn- if they don't understand electrical issues, they shouldn't attempt to repair them. It's easy to toast sensitive electrical circuits and parts, which can lead to symptoms that they have no idea how to find. This not only takes more of their time but ot keeps the boat out of the water when the customer wants it most. When someone doesn't understand the causes of these problems, they tend to throw parts at it in an attempt to do something.

Some dealers are clearly making the effort to be good dealers but if what I read here is any indication, most aren't. It could be that the rest are busy enough that they don't take the time but knowing the marine industry a bit, I think they're scrambling to get the work done fast, cheaply and move on to the next one.

The fact that trained dealers are spread out as thin as they are is a problem, too. OTOH, it takes a lot to trust a service shop and it costs a lot to hire & train people. It's just not possible or practical for MC to set up a shop in every city near a lake and I seriously doubt Indmar wants to have their own service shops although I don't think that would be a bad thing, given the high number of their drive trains out there.

kskonn
11-08-2011, 09:53 AM
I personally was scared off by the new electronics, I was just worried that they would not last over time, have problems on the lake there were a number of reasons. Therefore I bought my X2 with the classic dash, and minimal electronics. I guess that is the piece that is missing in this debate. Mastercraft still makes boats without all of the newest technology, and it can be ordered that way if that is what you want. If they are selling boats with the screens etc... it is because people are ordering them that way.

DemolitionMan
11-08-2011, 10:24 AM
Are people really asking for it or are they just trying to get "one up" on the competition?? Just sayin...

I asked for cup holder in the swim platform. :cry:

Sodar
11-08-2011, 10:45 AM
I asked for cup holder in the swim platform. :cry:

You going to be around this weekend?

I'll stop by with a 30 pack and a hole saw. :D

76S&S
11-08-2011, 10:51 AM
You going to be around this weekend?

I'll stop by with a 30 pack and a hole saw. :D

and a couple of stainless cup holders.........:D:D

Sullivan
11-08-2011, 12:17 PM
The other thing about these new digital displays or HMI's is that they look dated as new stuff comes out every year.

Every Malibu promo boat in the past three years at our lake has to have the battery switch shut off every night otherwise it will drain the battery overnight! My 197 we put it away with the heater switch on, seat heaters on and the next day when I turn the KEY it fires every time. Go figure, the ignition switch atually isolates the battery the way it should.

Sodar
11-08-2011, 12:21 PM
My In-laws newer Nautique does the same thing. You have to shut the battery off after every use or the electronics drain the batts. Luckily, the bilge pumps are hardwired.

jwardenjr
11-08-2011, 12:34 PM
I never owned a MC before but I love the technology in my 2012 X-25 ... I am not happy with my perfect pass but all the advancements make it easier to have other people pull me which in the pass was always a problem

Covi
11-08-2011, 02:13 PM
You going to be around this weekend?

I'll stop by with a 30 pack and a hole saw. :D

That's funny!!

GT500 MC
11-08-2011, 07:09 PM
I stopped by a MC dealership and a fully "blinged" out x14v was in the showroom and it was getting up to $100k. That is insanity if you ask me. There is such a small number of people who can afford these boats I think the long-term effects on watersports are pretty bad. This is a rich person's hobby and it is getting worse.

You've got to be kidding me?? For an x14v? I realize that was probably MSRP but my god. I have a '10 x14v fully "blinged" out. Maybe I can make some money on this thing. :rolleyes:

coz
11-08-2011, 07:15 PM
My In-laws newer Nautique does the same thing. You have to shut the battery off after every use or the electronics drain the batts. Luckily, the bilge pumps are hardwired.

In-laws???....you get married?

mikeg205
11-08-2011, 07:25 PM
:Di vote for a hydraulic swim platform that lowers in the water so you can just point your behind at the boat and sit and thrn the platform lifts to transom height....:D

sp00ky
11-09-2011, 08:56 AM
You going to be around this weekend?

I'll stop by with a 30 pack and a hole saw. :D

Wow that's a lot of beer for the job maybe time for an intervention. Lol

DemolitionMan
11-09-2011, 09:14 AM
You going to be around this weekend?

I'll stop by with a 30 pack and a hole saw. :D

I have thought about it.

Sodar
11-09-2011, 09:23 AM
Wow that's a lot of beer for the job maybe time for an intervention. Lol

I prefer to come over prepared, rather than under. It's a boy scout thing. :rolleyes:

Masternorth
11-09-2011, 09:32 AM
My In-laws newer Nautique does the same thing. You have to shut the battery off after every use or the electronics drain the batts. Luckily, the bilge pumps are hardwired.

I have the same problem with my 2008 X2, so I turn the batteries off after each use...I will probaly install a battery tender next year to avoid the problem :rolleyes:

scott023
11-09-2011, 09:39 AM
In-laws???....you get married?

It's getting closer every day...

bobx1
11-09-2011, 09:59 AM
.......Dealers aren't necessarily keeping qualified techs or making sure the techs they have are trained to the extent that they can reliably diagnose ALL kinds of problems in the boats, they aren't keeping needed parts in stock and they aren't making their customers ......and it costs a lot to hire & train people. It's just not possible or practical for MC to set up a shop in every city near a lake and I seriously doubt Indmar wants to have their own service shops although I don't think that would be a bad thing, given the high number of their drive trains out there.

I think you hit on another point of too much technology.

My MC Tech (Lee) is now an independent wrench turner (and a very good one at that) because the dealer could not sell enough during the great rececession to keep the MC line. He told me that you need a degree in electrical engineering/computer science to keep up with the MC line now-a-days and even during good times, the dealer simply cant afford/justify the pay associated with the skill set necessary to keep customers happy. And add that to the fact they are only needed 6-9 months out of the year.

So it appears MC's (and others) response is more technology/bling so they can raise their prices and make more profits - higher prices and lower volume.

Being the owner of several boats over the past 20 years, I know this for a fact - boats break. Even simple boats break. The more stuff you have on a boat, the more stuff will break.

GoneBoatN
11-09-2011, 11:58 AM
What concerns me the most is the future supply of repair parts for these electronic parts.

As to the maintenance and upkeep, I suspect the bigger problem is the lacking of documentation of diagnosing and repairing of these electronic wonders. The engines (including EFI, ECM and etc) being borrowed from the automotive industry are on safer ground becasue of the volume and requirements imposed there.

As said before, I guess time will tell. The other option is to periodically update to a newer model but that is a rather expensive option. Right now I like the model I have because I'm not 100% dependant upon the electronics. I still have gages and switches for just about everything. I need the BIG for the PP but you would need some display for that in any event. I opted for extending the warranty to 6 years and I plan to re-evaluate my plan when I get towards the end of that warranty.

There are electronics I would not give up - mostly just the PP. For the rest, I would really prefer simple and independant gauges and switches.

JimN
11-09-2011, 12:57 PM
I think you hit on another point of too much technology.

My MC Tech (Lee) is now an independent wrench turner (and a very good one at that) because the dealer could not sell enough during the great rececession to keep the MC line. He told me that you need a degree in electrical engineering/computer science to keep up with the MC line now-a-days and even during good times, the dealer simply cant afford/justify the pay associated with the skill set necessary to keep customers happy. And add that to the fact they are only needed 6-9 months out of the year.

So it appears MC's (and others) response is more technology/bling so they can raise their prices and make more profits - higher prices and lower volume.

Being the owner of several boats over the past 20 years, I know this for a fact - boats break. Even simple boats break. The more stuff you have on a boat, the more stuff will break.

More profit? Really? With warranty claims eating away and excessive fuel pump issues?

If your tech told you that a tech needs a degree, I would bet that his electronic/electrical background isn't as strong as it could be because that's exactly what I saw when I was at MC training. The old guys who had great reputations for carbureted engine repair had no freaking idea what to do with a Bosch relay. The sad thing about that is, the diagram for the contacts is molded into the case (plastic version) or printed on (metal case) and it only has 5 contacts. They didn't know how to troubleshoot a flaky starter with a meter- only knew that if the terminals get hot, there's a problem.

It's not rocket surgery. If I was a dealer and needed a young guy, I would talk to the ones who have been trained well in car audio & security because they have the 12V electrical background I want them to. They can learn the mechanical stuff but the hard part is electrical.

Re: "the dealer simply cant afford/justify the pay associated with the skill set necessary to keep customers happy", the training is needed so the tech doesn't waste time searching for problems on the boat and when this happens on a warranty issue, the dealer loses his butt. Then, he looks at the tech as a waste of air & food but in reality, it's the dealer who needs to pull his head out. If they spend the money to train and keep a tech, they need to make sure that guy does the job right, once and reasonably fast. I used to tell the guys working for me (car audio/security) that "Speed Kills", meaning that they shouldn't look at each job as a speed contest because it's too easy to screw up when they rush. Once they have a staff who's really good with the electrical stuff, he needs to make it well known. If they do that, having enough work will never be a problem because ALL brands have electrical issues that make the other dealers look like amateurs.

People want bling, manufacturers need to supply it if they want to sell their products, even if they want to keep things more simple. Personally, I think simple is a good way to go but when skiers want Perfect Pass, etc, it gets complicated. The fuel injection is less of an issue, although many dealers refuse to learn how to service it efficiently. Ironically, people who would never think of working on their car, which is used for daily transportation, want to jump head first into a boat engine when they have no idea where to look first. We have seen this constantly here and someone giving bad advice is the reason for my first post. If people want reliable, these need to go back to more simple systems.

JimN
11-09-2011, 01:01 PM
What concerns me the most is the future supply of repair parts for these electronic parts.

As to the maintenance and upkeep, I suspect the bigger problem is the lacking of documentation of diagnosing and repairing of these electronic wonders. The engines (including EFI, ECM and etc) being borrowed from the automotive industry are on safer ground becasue of the volume and requirements imposed there.

As said before, I guess time will tell. The other option is to periodically update to a newer model but that is a rather expensive option. Right now I like the model I have because I'm not 100% dependant upon the electronics. I still have gauges and switches for just about everything. I need the BIG for the PP but you would need some display for that in any event. I opted for extending the warranty to 6 years and I plan to re-evaluate my plan when I get towards the end of that warranty.

There are electronics I would not give up - mostly just the PP. For the rest, I would really prefer simple and independant gauges and switches.

The parts for all of this are off the shelf. Medallion/Borg Warner gauges and controllers were selected, not designed for these boats. The throttle by wire system is all from existing parts- the controller's programming may be proprietary but the parts aren't, AFAIK.

kskonn
11-09-2011, 02:27 PM
More profit? Really? With warranty claims eating away and excessive fuel pump issues?

If your tech told you that a tech needs a degree, I would bet that his electronic/electrical background isn't as strong as it could be because that's exactly what I saw when I was at MC training. The old guys who had great reputations for carbureted engine repair had no freaking idea what to do with a Bosch relay. The sad thing about that is, the diagram for the contacts is molded into the case (plastic version) or printed on (metal case) and it only has 5 contacts. They didn't know how to troubleshoot a flaky starter with a meter- only knew that if the terminals get hot, there's a problem.

It's not rocket surgery. If I was a dealer and needed a young guy, I would talk to the ones who have been trained well in car audio & security because they have the 12V electrical background I want them to. They can learn the mechanical stuff but the hard part is electrical.

Re: "the dealer simply cant afford/justify the pay associated with the skill set necessary to keep customers happy", the training is needed so the tech doesn't waste time searching for problems on the boat and when this happens on a warranty issue, the dealer loses his butt. Then, he looks at the tech as a waste of air & food but in reality, it's the dealer who needs to pull his head out. If they spend the money to train and keep a tech, they need to make sure that guy does the job right, once and reasonably fast. I used to tell the guys working for me (car audio/security) that "Speed Kills", meaning that they shouldn't look at each job as a speed contest because it's too easy to screw up when they rush. Once they have a staff who's really good with the electrical stuff, he needs to make it well known. If they do that, having enough work will never be a problem because ALL brands have electrical issues that make the other dealers look like amateurs.

People want bling, manufacturers need to supply it if they want to sell their products, even if they want to keep things more simple. Personally, I think simple is a good way to go but when skiers want Perfect Pass, etc, it gets complicated. The fuel injection is less of an issue, although many dealers refuse to learn how to service it efficiently. Ironically, people who would never think of working on their car, which is used for daily transportation, want to jump head first into a boat engine when they have no idea where to look first. We have seen this constantly here and someone giving bad advice is the reason for my first post. If people want reliable, these need to go back to more simple systems.

I agree with all that you said. The dealer I use took that path when hiring there service techs. their new hires mostly come from car audio/video/security, the one they have hired were MECP certified so there 12V knowledge was extensive. The Service Department manager told me that it takes him about a year to get a person like that brought up to speed on the mechanical side of the work and at that point they can start giving them bigger more in depth jobs, which of course to them means more money. Although they are a dealership exclusive to mastercraft they are constantly working on just as many Malibus, moombas, Nautique etc... plenty of work to go around, that tends to happen when you fix issues promptly and correctly.

Skipper
11-09-2011, 10:07 PM
The parts for all of this are off the shelf. Medallion/Borg Warner gauges and controllers were selected, not designed for these boats. The throttle by wire system is all from existing parts- the controller's programming may be proprietary but the parts aren't, AFAIK.

Good thing you called it throttle by wire otherwise the other Jim would have gotten really upset at you...8p8p8p8p

Spork
11-09-2011, 10:22 PM
Drive by wire is the correct term for electronic controlled throttle bodies and other systems or devices not utilizing a mechanical interface , aircraft are fly-by-wire which replace conventional flight controls...

Dino Don
11-09-2011, 10:43 PM
Hey, what happened to K I S S ??? Keep It Simple Stupid??

Too many bells and whistles--you think?

ahhudgins
11-09-2011, 11:03 PM
I'm an electronics technician and I really prefer to have my mechanical gauges. It's just a matter of easier trouble shooting for me and a lower cost to repair. Hats off to anyone who wants to spring for the extras.

The looks of the Power Tower haven't grown on me yet (may not ever) and having to do a software upgrade to get it working properly scares the bejesus out of me. Since I've never seen the electronics involved for the towers, I would have to assume that they have some sort of resolver/transducer/encoder feedback in order to keep the sides equal. What a nightmare to work on for a typical mechanic.

I know my wife would like to have GPS speed control on my 95 (I would too when she's driving :D) but I'm fine controlling the throttle myself. Ballast control is just a matter of moving the fat chicks around.

GoneBoatN
11-10-2011, 01:42 AM
I'm an electronics technician and I really prefer to have my mechanical gauges. It's just a matter of easier trouble shooting for me and a lower cost to repair. Hats off to anyone who wants to spring for the extras.

The looks of the Power Tower haven't grown on me yet (may not ever) and having to do a software upgrade to get it working properly scares the bejesus out of me. Since I've never seen the electronics involved for the towers, I would have to assume that they have some sort of resolver/transducer/encoder feedback in order to keep the sides equal. What a nightmare to work on for a typical mechanic.

I know my wife would like to have GPS speed control on my 95 (I would too when she's driving :D) but I'm fine controlling the throttle myself. Ballast control is just a matter of moving the fat chicks around.

Likewise, I've been in the computer industry for around thirty years. My background is software development and much of it has been related to make hardware do it's thing (device drivers and such). Hardware devices (electronics) are a funny thing. Many times manufactures just stop making a sub component and hence an electronics manufacture can't make their original device because a sub-component is no longer available. So in the case of gauges where they are fairly standard in terms of inputs and outputs this is not a problem. But in the case of specific units such as the viper module related to the BIG I suspect it may become an issue in time. Don't get me wrong, I love my PP and would not give it up for the world; this includes while I'm driving and while I'm being pulled. :) On the otherhand I don't need a touch screen to replace the functionality of a toggle switch to turn on/off the lights or fill/empty the ballast tanks. :D

gatorguy
11-10-2011, 09:44 AM
Man, you guys suck!! I had my next x7/x14 all figured out in my head. It was going to have every tech bell and whistle availible. Now I'm not sure. Go with gauges for the long haul, or with electronics and replace the whole boat after a while when it starts to have bugs. I like the idea of buying one boat and driving it into the next century.

Probably what I'll have to do is get my x7 with guages to keep forever for early morning skiing, and then get an x35 with all the bling for family time and trade it out every 5yrs or so.

Sullivan
11-10-2011, 10:11 AM
Here is where things get scary for me. One HMI screen to control everything. Integrated Zero Off or Perfect Pass, All you gauges and all your ballast controls, oh and why not add the ignition system on one screen. NO THANKS!

The 197 is perfect, toggle switches to turn lights, heaters etc on and a analog tach, speedo, oil pres, water temp etc. Zero Off in its own display.

If something goes bad with any one of these its an easy swap of the faulty device. Please MasterCraft do not go to an all in one HMI display!

Millertime
11-10-2011, 12:28 PM
Agree Agree, that's why I love the 08-09's. Little bit of both worlds, vdig screen, but still switches to operate everything. Do like the idea of punching in a code for start up, no keys.

wtrskr
11-10-2011, 01:20 PM
More profit? Really? With warranty claims eating away and excessive fuel pump issues?

...

It's not rocket surgery. If I was a dealer and needed a young guy, I would talk to the ones who have been trained well in car audio & security because they have the 12V electrical background I want them to. They can learn the mechanical stuff but the hard part is electrical.

.....

People want bling, manufacturers need to supply it if they want to sell their products, even if they want to keep things more simple. Personally, I think simple is a good way to go but when skiers want Perfect Pass, etc, it gets complicated. The fuel injection is less of an issue, although many dealers refuse to learn how to service it efficiently. Ironically, people who would never think of working on their car, which is used for daily transportation, want to jump head first into a boat engine when they have no idea where to look first. We have seen this constantly here and someone giving bad advice is the reason for my first post. If people want reliable, these need to go back to more simple systems.

It is somewhat strange that people will work on boats but not cars but there are some logical reasons.

-Engines are easier to access
-Boat owners likely own a boat longer than their car providing more incentive to learn.
-Servicing is often more expensive on boats and often requires a long commute to take it in or a waiting line for completion.
-You can go without using your boat for long stretches (this is the big one to me).

I was one of those guys that jumped right into a boat project without knowing what I was doing. However, not to show favortism to my boat, I also decided to dig into my car and replace a timing belt as well.

I found out that it wasn't brain science as you mention (at least on an older boat). At the same time, it does require a lot of time and effort the first time. Because time is so valuable for so many people, there will always be enough work for dealers even if a tiny minority decides to do things on their own.


I'll be curious to see how this newer technology holds up over the long term. Cars don't last as long as boats before they hit the junkyard so boat companys will likely have to deal with more longevity issues than car companies that add fancy technologies to today's cars.

markismm
11-10-2011, 03:18 PM
Hey, what happened to K I S S ??? Keep It Simple Stupid??

Too many bells and whistles--you think?


I'll tell you what happened to it - its in my garage. Its an 84 S & S.

While many have said the mid-lat 90's or the mid 2000's are the perfect combination between old tech and new tech, I disagree. My boat has fiberglass stringer's (no worries about rot) and a bullet proof 351w with a bullet proof 1:1 velvet drive tranny. The gel coat is immaculate and the stereo (now upgraded) is perfect.

The boat does exactly what it is designed to do - pull a skier through the course in a straight line at a steady rate and do it again and again and again with little to no wake. If a part breaks/fails (which is rare) pick up a new one for cheap and keep skiing.

Regardless of how bling'ed out the new boats are, everyone stops to look at what can only be recognized as a classic. I certainly love to look at the new features on the new boats just like anyone else and would like to try all of the new buttons. As a matter of fact, perfect pass would be nice on my boat. BUT completely uneccesary. With the proper ACME or OJ prope, you place the throttle in the right spot for the speed and don't touch it through the course or turns.

Its that simple to me - a purpose built machine that is as beautiful and functional today as it was when it was originally built. The old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" never rang truer to me than on the day I purchased my boat (for a 10th of the price of a new one I might add, and I believe my boat has done nothing but gone up in value as well).

Thrall
11-10-2011, 04:22 PM
Alot to be said for simplicity, and when I started wrenching on stuff in my teens, EFI was just becoming standard issue on cars. Dad and I would laugh at it and talk about how "simple" the old carb engines and vaccum operated trans' were to work on and how "confusing" all that new tech stuff was.
I've now adapted to all the new(er) electronic controls, seems easy to plug in a scan tool and for the most part figure out the problem.
Now I cringe at the new-new cars and boats with touch screen integrated controls, etc, because I haven't had cause to work on them yet and I'm sure in another 20 yrs I'll be adapted to today's technology!:confused:
That said I prefer guages and switches on the boat. If one thing dies, everything else still works. Same with cars. I bought the last model of 1/2ton pickup without IFS, ABS, electronic shift 4wd, throttle by wire, etc. An 01 Ram 1500. Then upgraded to one of the last model diesels without any emissions equipment, no traction control, etc. Then upgraded to the last diesel without the dpf emissions tech, no traction control, maunal trans.
Well, found out that the technology that I shunned a while back is pretty nice.....and reliable now, like electronic 4wd shifting.
Bunch of rambling, but I just prefer not to be the technology guinea pig I guess!

GoneBoatN
11-11-2011, 12:54 AM
...but I just prefer not to be the technology guinea pig...

There is a reason they call it the bleeding edge. :cool:

carlsonwa
11-11-2011, 12:26 PM
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww238/wayne_carlson/bee1f64f.jpg

Saw this on Mastercraft's Facebook page. Do you really need to access Facebook on the screen of a new X-star ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ahhudgins
11-11-2011, 02:23 PM
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww238/wayne_carlson/bee1f64f.jpg

Saw this on Mastercraft's Facebook page. Do you really need to access Facebook on the screen of a new X-star ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

According to most people these days "Yes, you do!"
My wife laughs at me because I’m so “Anti-technology”. I told her that I’ve been in the electronics field for 28 years and I see how all of these new “gadgets” are making us lazy and they consume so much of our life (but not mine). I get so p*ssed off when everyone on the dock or in the boat is texting or updating their FB page. I knew it was only a matter of time before you would be able to log onto FB from the dash of your boat. NO THANK YOU! I go to the lake to get away from work, customers, and the Internet.

I have no problem with the updated electronics for the engine control. We’ve gotten more HP and better fuel economy from the same amount of cubic inches just by the advances in electronics. I’m glad that I plan on keeping my 95 MC until I die.

And I don’t need a car that parallel parks itself…I can do that too.:D

TallRedRider
11-11-2011, 03:02 PM
What concerns me the most is the future supply of repair parts for these electronic parts.



I have said this over and over...Anyone ever try and fix a 10 year old computer? Or even worse, I was playing on an Atari 20 years ago. 20 years from now, these boats might not be driveable when the display fails.

On another website, there was a thread about how a guy could not get his boat to start because the display decided to reset his code on its own. No thanks. I love to turn a key, because it works every time.

Patrick Hardy
11-11-2011, 04:12 PM
I have said this over and over...Anyone ever try and fix a 10 year old computer? Or even worse, I was playing on an Atari 20 years ago. 20 years from now, these boats might not be drivable when the display fails.

On another website, there was a thread about how a guy could not get his boat to start because the display decided to reset his code on its own. No thanks. I love to turn a key, because it works every time.

My feelings exactly. I had this thread in my mind the other day as I read a big article on this same problem with Ford. The new technology / touch screen problems are killing Ford's consumer quality ratings with their new models. The article talked about numerous problems with incorporating the touch screen and software issues. IMHO this type of technology will be a problem in all types of transportation. I sure would not like it if I could not start my boat or car because of some software incompatibility issues / problems.

bobx1
11-14-2011, 11:40 AM
http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww238/wayne_carlson/bee1f64f.jpg



13% of Facebook users are under the age of 17
35% of Facebook users are between ages 18 and 25
20% of Facebook users are between the ages of 26 and 34
16% of Facebook users are between the ages of 35 and 44
12% of Facebook users are between the ages of 45 and 54
7% of Facebook users are between the ages of 55 and 64

Source = http://www.kenburbary.com/2011/03/facebook-demographics-revisited-2011-statistics-2/


So 48% of Facebook users are under 25 years old and 68% are under the age of 34.

In order to afford a $100K + boat, I would think you are either a member of the lucky seman club or make a lot of money and I dont see a bunch of people under the age of 25 making enough money to be able to afford an MC boat. In other words, I dont see having Facebook access in an MC boat a very big selling point.

mikeg205
11-14-2011, 11:47 AM
I have said this over and over...Anyone ever try and fix a 10 year old computer? Or even worse, I was playing on an Atari 20 years ago. 20 years from now, these boats might not be driveable when the display fails.

On another website, there was a thread about how a guy could not get his boat to start because the display decided to reset his code on its own. No thanks. I love to turn a key, because it works every time.

+1 for me....if its replaceable or if it can be bypassed then its cool for MC to come out with the leading edge tech. But I agree with the above...if the ECM is locked to the dash then forget it. In your car if the digital dash goes - no starty... We'll have to see how the people who can afford these new sweet rides comment in the years to come.

For example...lot of fuel pump issues discussed in late model boats.... not so much on pre-2000 boats.

JimN
11-14-2011, 12:09 PM
And I don’t need a car that parallel parks itself…I can do that too.:D

We discussed this kind of thing at MC training the first time I went in early 1998. ABS, throttle/drive by wire, vehicle sensors and any other control systems that can take over for the driver are there because of the insurance industry. Think about it- they have lobbyists, lots of money and don't like to pay the whole amount of claims- always trying to get people to settle below actual value. If they had their way, they wouldn't have to pay anything but that's not how it is. Yet. If a vehicle sensor receives data that tells it a crash is imminent, the computer can slow or stop the vehicle. If it can also steer, the obstacle can be avoided. If the driver is incapacitated, the vehicle can take over and if it has an accurate GPS system, it can follow the road to pull over safely.

Personally, I think they should have an interface to determine the driver's abilities. Around here, it seems like most people went to the Stevie Wonder School of Driving.

JimN
11-14-2011, 12:10 PM
I think they could have left Facebook off of the control panel but when people complain about the price increase without looking into ALL of the changes, it shows that they're just reacting without bothering with the facts.

thatsmrmastercraft
11-14-2011, 12:46 PM
We discussed this kind of thing at MC training the first time I went in early 1998. ABS, throttle/drive by wire, vehicle sensors and any other control systems that can take over for the driver are there because of the insurance industry. Think about it- they have lobbyists, lots of money and don't like to pay the whole amount of claims- always trying to get people to settle below actual value. If they had their way, they wouldn't have to pay anything but that's not how it is. Yet. If a vehicle sensor receives data that tells it a crash is imminent, the computer can slow or stop the vehicle. If it can also steer, the obstacle can be avoided. If the driver is incapacitated, the vehicle can take over and if it has an accurate GPS system, it can follow the road to pull over safely.

Personally, I think they should have an interface to determine the driver's abilities. Around here, it seems like most people went to the Stevie Wonder School of Driving.

That is hitting the nail on the head. Parking by braille is way to common a sight.

ahhudgins
11-14-2011, 07:48 PM
Personally, I think they should have an interface to determine the driver's abilities. Around here, it seems like most people went to the Stevie Wonder School of Driving.

It’s like that everywhere and it makes me wonder. Are people really just getting dumber, or are we just adding to many distractions inside the car? Cell phones, GPS screens, command centers, and DVD players. I say DVD players because my neighbor rear-ended someone when her kids were in the back seat fighting over which movie to watch. It was her fault, not the DVD player’s.:D

On the flip side, I’ve heard about marriages being saved by Perfect Pass so I‘ve been giving it some serious thought. But I'm sure she will find something wrong with it!!!!

GoneBoatN
11-15-2011, 12:49 AM
... I’ve heard about marriages being saved by Perfect Pass so I‘ve been giving it some serious thought. But I'm sure she will find something wrong with it!!!!


+1

Yeppers: 1) it's hard to remember to push the button to turn the thing on. I was going way fast on the wakeboard when I finally let go. 2) My wife said "I thought the boat was going too fast in the turn so I pulled the trottle back" - what was the hint that slower was better - the fact that the wakeboard was not running on top of the water any more! Yep, faceplant or leave go of the rope. My 15 year old son was not on that trip with us. I manage to keep my mouth shut on that trip.

:D

ahhudgins
11-15-2011, 08:56 AM
So is an add on PP just as simple as cruise control in a car? Get to a speed you want and push a button, then move the throttle to cut it off?

My wife refuses to sit her butt in the seat because she says she can't see under the windshield trim (she is the only one). She puts the throw cushion in the seat and has one knee on the cushion and her other foot on the floor...that way she is looking over the windshield. Boat speed is secondary to her so when I want to go 22 MPH I might get 20 MPH, or maybe 24 MPH. It's not too bad for slalom and barefoot speeds.

Patrick Hardy
11-15-2011, 10:12 AM
So is an add on PP just as simple as cruise control in a car? Get to a speed you want and push a button, then move the throttle to cut it off?

My wife refuses to sit her butt in the seat because she says she can't see under the windshield trim (she is the only one). She puts the throw cushion in the seat and has one knee on the cushion and her other foot on the floor...that way she is looking over the windshield. Boat speed is secondary to her so when I want to go 22 MPH I might get 20 MPH, or maybe 24 MPH. It's not too bad for slalom and barefoot speeds.

Yes the Perfect Pass products are all pretty easy to use. The easiest of them is the Perfect Pass Cruise product. It is as simple as turn the system on, get up to speed, push the button to engage and that is it. The Perfect Pass products go a long way in easing inexperienced drivers abilities behind the wheel and or saving you a lot of wife / girlfriend headaches.

sp00ky
11-15-2011, 12:09 PM
Likewise, I've been in the computer industry for around thirty years. My background is software development and much of it has been related to make hardware do it's thing (device drivers and such). Hardware devices (electronics) are a funny thing. Many times manufactures just stop making a sub component and hence an electronics manufacture can't make their original device because a sub-component is no longer available. So in the case of gauges where they are fairly standard in terms of inputs and outputs this is not a problem. But in the case of specific units such as the viper module related to the BIG I suspect it may become an issue in time. Don't get me wrong, I love my PP and would not give it up for the world; this includes while I'm driving and while I'm being pulled. :) On the otherhand I don't need a touch screen to replace the functionality of a toggle switch to turn on/off the lights or fill/empty the ballast tanks. :D

I'm also in IT in network design and support. The fickle business decisions about sub- components scares me too.

PP would be cool but I want to have drivers who can DRIVE not rely on complicated systems. I know how to use the throttle of my 94 205. My wife is getting there and I will teach my kids to properly drive. Not press buttons on a screen and THEN not watching the water, land , wind direction, etc.

Drivers mind should be focused on all aspects of driving in order to make decisions which improve the skiers experience.

DooSPX
11-15-2011, 12:20 PM
I'm also in IT in network design and support. The fickle business decisions about sub- components scares me too.

PP would be cool but I want to have drivers who can DRIVE not rely on complicated systems. I know how to use the throttle of my 94 205. My wife is getting there and I will teach my kids to properly drive. Not press buttons on a screen and THEN not watching the water, land , wind direction, etc.

Drivers mind should be focused on all aspects of driving in order to make decisions which improve the skiers experience.

Another IT Network and PC Consultant. As stated above, I worry about whats going to happen in X number of years with these new BIG systems, etc.
While I fully agree that I driver should be focused on all aspects of driving, I feel PP great because I want my driver to concentrate on the water, waves/wakes, other boaters, etc. and let PP give me the pull I want.
I am looking into PP soon... hopefully.... :rolleyes:

sp00ky
11-15-2011, 02:06 PM
Yes PP is very cool and has become tried and true. However controlling all with a touch screen and depending on this for basic functions is not cool.

Makes me wonder if these boats will have near the lifespan of the boats of 80s and 90s.

DooSPX
11-15-2011, 03:20 PM
However controlling all with a touch screen and depending on this for basic functions is not cool.

Makes me wonder if these boats will have near the lifespan of the boats of 80s and 90s.

could not agree more!

bjames
11-15-2011, 05:32 PM
Makes me wonder if these boats will have near the lifespan of the boats of 80s and 90s.


The boat will probably last longer, however you may need a paddle to go anywhere. I too have a feeling the components will crap out a lot sooner and by that time, there will be no replacement parts available due to proprietary engineering.

ahhudgins
11-15-2011, 06:39 PM
The boat will probably last longer, however you may need a paddle to go anywhere. I too have a feeling the components will crap out a lot sooner and by that time, there will be no replacement parts available due to proprietary engineering.

Touch screens have been the latest feature added to most of the CNC and printing presses I work on. The flat screens are not lasting as long as the old CRT type, and if we can't repair them, the OEM charges the customer a hefty price for a new one. A replacement 15" flat panel (with touch screen) for a Heidelberg printing press was $2,200 but I was able to replace the back light tubes for less than $300. The OEM has customers by the short hairs.

I don't know if the same thing will happen with the newer boats, but if someone can pay over 80K for a boat, dropping a few thousand for a replacement part is no big deal. Only time will tell.

zamboniman
11-15-2011, 10:54 PM
Maybe one should stock up on replacement parts and store em away and make a killing on them in 10 years when there aren't parts available..

Joking of course.

PA Prostar
11-16-2011, 03:20 PM
This could be apples and oranges, but I just called for a tach for my 98 Prostar. I was told the boat was old and couldn't get it any longer.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything new, but I'm getting an education if a 13 year old boat is considered "old". I may be wrong, but I thought boat owners keep their boats longer than cars - so I personally would call my boat "middle aged". Regardless of terms, I would think there's still a market for parts to be had.

That being said, I sure don't want a touch screen controlling basic functions - give me manual all the way. It's only happened a couple of times, but I get ticked when my car breaks down and I'm stranded - only to find some sensor that has nothing to do with the basic function of the motor did it.

And really, Facebook on boats? I guess when you overload your boat and have 13 people in the bow, you need to have something for them to do. Accidents waiting to happen.

kskonn
11-16-2011, 11:45 PM
I'm also in IT in network design and support. The fickle business decisions about sub- components scares me too.

PP would be cool but I want to have drivers who can DRIVE not rely on complicated systems. I know how to use the throttle of my 94 205. My wife is getting there and I will teach my kids to properly drive. Not press buttons on a screen and THEN not watching the water, land , wind direction, etc.

Drivers mind should be focused on all aspects of driving in order to make decisions which improve the skiers experience.

I personally think PP is great and allows a person who is learning to drive to focus more on the driving part and less on having to monitor speed etc... what I know for sure after looking at the B.I.G. system when I bought my new boat(opted for the old school gages) was that it would distract the driver more than help. Having to go through menus vs flip a switch was just a no brainer for me.

By the way, a big thanks to all the IT professionals out there who make my sales life a whole lot better and more efficient.

FourFourty
11-17-2011, 10:17 AM
Please don't confuse THROTTLE BY WIRE vs DRIVE BY WIRE

MC is not producing F16s.

[email protected]

Every automotive and powertrain manufacturer out there calls it "Drive by wire"..... I know exactly what you mean, because it is only controlling the throttle plate..... But it is referred to as "drive by wire"

Not saying you are wrong though :D

captain planet
11-18-2011, 06:40 AM
Maybe one should stock up on replacement parts and store em away and make a killing on them in 10 years when there aren't parts available..

Joking of course.


Yea..... Um, I'll call my buddy and we'll make sure parts some parts are available down the road. Pm me in 10 years if you need anything.:rolleyes:

coz
11-18-2011, 07:22 AM
This could be apples and oranges, but I just called for a tach for my 98 Prostar. I was told the boat was old and couldn't get it any longer.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything new, but I'm getting an education if a 13 year old boat is considered "old". I may be wrong, but I thought boat owners keep their boats longer than cars - so I personally would call my boat "middle aged". Regardless of terms, I would think there's still a market for parts to be had.

That being said, I sure don't want a touch screen controlling basic functions - give me manual all the way. It's only happened a couple of times, but I get ticked when my car breaks down and I'm stranded - only to find some sensor that has nothing to do with the basic function of the motor did it.

And really, Facebook on boats? I guess when you overload your boat and have 13 people in the bow, you need to have something for them to do. Accidents waiting to happen.

Call these guys, they'll hook you up with the right tach http://www.isspro.com/index.php

DooSPX
11-18-2011, 08:12 AM
And really, Facebook on boats? I guess when you overload your boat and have 13 people in the bow, you need to have something for them to do. Accidents waiting to happen.

I agree :rolleyes:
Let's all hope that it's wired like the DVD players in car's, only available when the E-Brake is engaged. MC should make it that only "stupid" function's such as FB are only able to be used when the engine is off.