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View Full Version : Perfect Pass Zero Off and X-25


jwardenjr
10-25-2011, 05:38 PM
My 2012 X-25 has Perfect Pass and it's junk. It will not hold speed unless its pure glass and it takes 60 plus seconds to level out and quit hunting 3-5 MPH over or under. I have been working with the dealer and they agree its a real problem. They say Mastercraft is working with Medallion but in the mean time I have a 2012 boat with a non-working version of PP. I called PP direct and the had me bump the CS # to the max but it did not help. They told me that medallion never even gave them a unit to test. I am thinking of just asking Mastercraft to replace my PP with Zero Off. Can any give me there experience with Zero Off for wakeboarding and Surfing ?

Nick911
10-25-2011, 06:44 PM
Is this problem with PP on just your boat or all 2012 boats? My dealer had me delete Zero Off as he said PP was pretty much as good.

vision
10-25-2011, 06:51 PM
On my friends 2011 PP in an x25, it would over shoot by 3 to 5 mph each time unless we accelerated gradually in which case it would engage near the desired speed and not over shoot. Nothing like the PP on my 08 X-star which engages several MPH prior to the target speed regardless of acceleration rate.

I have ridden in a MC with Zero-Off GPS that was recently installed and it worked well.

jwardenjr
10-25-2011, 07:25 PM
Is this problem with PP on just your boat or all 2012 boats? My dealer had me delete Zero Off as he said PP was pretty much as good.

from my understanding its all 2012's and a bigger problem on the X-25 as it weighs more. Get the Zero Off. My dealer had me delete it also :confused:

Nick911
10-25-2011, 08:04 PM
Talked to my dealer it is a problem on the Indmar engines due to throttle or timing or something however is not an issue on the Ilmors.

This make sense?

ddanenberger
10-25-2011, 09:04 PM
Talked to my dealer it is a problem on the Indmar engines due to throttle or timing or something however is not an issue on the Ilmors.

This make sense?

not really, I thought Ilmore was the only motor in the '12s. I would have to assume he has a ilmore. In our '11 you have to easy into the throttle for PP not to overshoot.

gstew
10-25-2011, 09:49 PM
I have Zero Off in a 2011 X-Star, it work's a lot better than PP in my opinion.

nmcjr
10-25-2011, 10:05 PM
I have a PP and a friend has a ZO. I prefer the ZO pull, and since you are having a problem with PP I'd say that's an easy choice. I can't think of any downside to ZO.

Nick911
10-25-2011, 10:13 PM
It's a $1800 option over PP. Still worth it?

Trig2275
10-25-2011, 10:25 PM
No brainer. Get zero off.


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gstew
10-25-2011, 10:25 PM
Definatly worth it.

DemolitionMan
10-25-2011, 11:00 PM
I run my ZO not the PP.

ShawnB
10-25-2011, 11:05 PM
I have PP in a 2011 and would get ZO if I had to do it all over again. I've tried calibrating a bunch of times and even got the 2012 software for my BIG. The speed reads 19.8 and the GPS on my phone says 23.5. Also it hunts coming out of the corner and we're on a small lake so we're constantly turning.

Basically I've learned to adapt my riding to it but if I were a pro I would hate it.

EA2010
10-27-2011, 06:42 PM
Well, I guess I'm now adding the ZO to my new X-25 order ... oh well, it's only money.

venetrex
10-27-2011, 07:05 PM
The real question here is WHY does Perfect Pass work perfectly in the older boats and just plain suck in the newer ones. I have an 2007 X2 with PP and it works perfectly and is easy to use. A friend has a 2011 X2 and it hunts does not lock and quite frankly a pain to use. Why would someone RUIN a perfectly good product?????????????

GoneBoatN
10-27-2011, 08:56 PM
I have a 2010 X-15 with PP and BIG, but with an Indmar MCX. Yep, had issues too. I've somewhat learned to deal with the PP/BIG. I've had to set the KDW in the rider settings to much higher than defaults which appears to be 50 (newer version of the viper software sets KDW=0 by default and as such just bites). The more ballast the higher the KDW setting needed to be. When doing sharp turns like reversing the direction during a wakeboard run, it helps if you also control the throttle a bit. Doing this I can keep the boat within about 1/2 mph during the turn and after the turn it locks back on quickly. When starting out, it helps to not overshoot or undershoot with the throttle and then it engages and starts to hold the correct speed; yes it takes maybe about 10 seconds but way under a minute. Another way as previously mention is get close to speed and then engage PP. I had newer software downloaded to the viper/medalion/big by the dealer/mechanic and I lost the ability to set KDW on the screen. I have a rider setting imported with KDW set to 250 and it seems to work better. I may put the older software back in so that I can make the change on the screen. On the other hand there are some other improvement in the Viper software that I'd like to keep so I may just stick with importing the rider settings I want. I'm thinking of making several rider settings with different KDWs and just change the rest on-screen. It is better than my wife controlling the throttle. :eek3:

jwardenjr
10-28-2011, 01:59 AM
I have a 2010 X-15 with PP and BIG, but with an Indmar MCX. Yep, had issues too. I've somewhat learned to deal with the PP/BIG. I've had to set the KDW in the rider settings to much higher than defaults which appears to be 50 (newer version of the viper software sets KDW=0 by default and as such just bites). The more ballast the higher the KDW setting needed to be. When doing sharp turns like reversing the direction during a wakeboard run, it helps if you also control the throttle a bit. Doing this I can keep the boat within about 1/2 mph during the turn and after the turn it locks back on quickly. When starting out, it helps to not overshoot or undershoot with the throttle and then it engages and starts to hold the correct speed; yes it takes maybe about 10 seconds but way under a minute. Another way as previously mention is get close to speed and then engage PP. I had newer software downloaded to the viper/medalion/big by the dealer/mechanic and I lost the ability to set KDW on the screen. I have a rider setting imported with KDW set to 250 and it seems to work better. I may put the older software back in so that I can make the change on the screen. On the other hand there are some other improvement in the Viper software that I'd like to keep so I may just stick with importing the rider settings I want. I'm thinking of making several rider settings with different KDWs and just change the rest on-screen. It is better than my wife controlling the throttle. :eek3:

Well thats a joke ! W.T.F I just paid a lot of money for a 2012 Mastercraft X-25 that sounds like a nightmare from some cheap knock off system not one mounted in 80-100 k boat. I am going to contact the Mastercraft rep and get my unit upgraded with ZO ... I was advised by the dealer not to get ZO when I purchased my boat.

bobx1
10-28-2011, 10:30 AM
......It is better than my wife controlling the throttle.

After reading your post, maybe not:D

I am sorry for the troubles you guys are experiencing and am sure they will be worked out.
For me, I still like my MasterCruise - cheap and simple.

Sodar
10-28-2011, 10:36 AM
The only thing that sucks with ZO or PP Stargazer is running in the current. The GPS works over land speed and not water speed (no big deal in the slalom course, but sucks for boarding and free skiing)

I have to dial the PP down when heading up river and crank it up when going down river. It took a while to get the fiance to remember to do it. The current can potentially make the boat ~4mph slower or faster when the river is really flowing.

Eagle Lake Rebel
10-28-2011, 07:44 PM
What did PP do to screw up its trusty unit? Granted I had to make a few adjustments when I frist got the boat, but once dialed in it has worked quite well. Holding speed has not been an issue and engagement once @ set point is very smooth. My boat is an'07 X30, LY6 engine, Acme 1285 prop. The operation of my PP is not effected by by speed or weight. My bud's 8.1L '08 Xstar unit works just as well. Is this problem just with new MC's or does it cross into other "lesser" brands? Has anyone tried changing out their paddle wheel to see if that had an effect or prop their boat down to help with speed control?

JLowder
10-28-2011, 08:15 PM
I would guess that Perfect Pass needs to adjust the PID Loop in the firmware. Really not a big deal, just needs to be done. I will tell you with 100% certainty that the issue isn't mechanical. Just a software adjustment.

Nick911
11-02-2011, 06:42 PM
Called the factory today about this very thing. They state there are no issues with PP.

GoneBoatN
11-02-2011, 08:49 PM
.... I had newer software downloaded to the viper/medalion/big by the dealer/mechanic and I lost the ability to set KDW on the screen.

I found where I can set KDW, CS and NN settings with the new version of the viper software. It is now under the Help menu. Also for additional information on KDW, NN and CS settings:

KDW (Throttle Pull Rate) – KDW can be changed using up or down keys. The higher the value, the more aggressive the control. Heavy boats may need higher values. Factory setting is about 180. Normal range is 120 – 200.

NN (Paddle Wheel Filter Factor) – NN should be set at 50. The higher the value the more filtering is done. If you feel you boat is surging a little, raise value by 20 or 30.
(Normal range is 50 – 100).

CS (Control Setting) – There is an adjustable control setting (CS), which primarily affects engagement in Wakeboard Mode. 750 is recommended, however, if you feel your boat “overshoots” the target speed too much, you can lower the value a little. Adjustments of 20 at a time is recommended. (Range is 650 - 750).

The above information was found at http://www.perfectpass.com/download/usersmanuals/DBWMasterCraft_WakeboardPro2008Graphics6_5NgJune20 07.pdf. It is an older manual related to VDIG but at least it explains KDW, NN and CS.

kskonn
11-03-2011, 12:06 AM
The only thing that sucks with ZO or PP Stargazer is running in the current. The GPS works over land speed and not water speed (no big deal in the slalom course, but sucks for boarding and free skiing)

I have to dial the PP down when heading up river and crank it up when going down river. It took a while to get the fiance to remember to do it. The current can potentially make the boat ~4mph slower or faster when the river is really flowing.

i have zero off on my 2011 x2, just bought the boat so i have not used it yet. however per the head of service at my dealer zero off will now measur the current speed and adjust. he told me you turn it on push a button wait 30 seconds for it to take a measurment and then you are good to go. it also stores speed so it will continue to run if you lose gps, for example while passing under a bridge. i will let you know how it works. i tried the mastercruise and it did not work well with 5 people and full ballast.

Ozzy X25
11-05-2011, 08:17 PM
:confused: Gday,
My 2011 x25 has PP and was working really well on the Hawksbury river Sydney NSW but now on the lake water here in Wagga Wagga it is playing silly buggers also ......:mad:. Goes well over the speed and is very difficult in rough water also . I have the 6l ilmore engine. I had cruise on the old PCM 6l skicraft xair and it was awesome with the rpm or speed settings, spot on . I am pretty disappointed with PP and with the money Ive spent on this boat am a little annoyed also .....:mad: These things should be right from the factory as its a main part of the boat and driver comfort.

vision
11-05-2011, 10:28 PM
Try easing into the speed. It seems to help. I agree, disappointing that it does not work like prior years PP.

Nick911
11-05-2011, 11:41 PM
:confused: Gday,
My 2011 x25 has PP and was working really well on the Hawksbury river Sydney NSW but now on the lake water here in Wagga Wagga it is playing silly buggers also ......:mad:. Goes well over the speed and is very difficult in rough water also . I have the 6l ilmore engine. I had cruise on the old PCM 6l skicraft xair and it was awesome with the rpm or speed settings, spot on . I am pretty disappointed with PP and with the money Ive spent on this boat am a little annoyed also .....:mad: These things should be right from the factory as its a main part of the boat and driver comfort.

Sorry asked you this question in another thread but what did the dealer say about your PP issues? Mine assures me PP is golden, but every new 25 seems to have them. Is it just a matter of changing settings?

Have a week to decide on my options for my 25 before it goes to build, might just add Zero Off...

Ozzy X25
11-05-2011, 11:59 PM
Sorry asked you this question in another thread but what did the dealer say about your PP issues? Mine assures me PP is golden, but every new 25 seems to have them. Is it just a matter of changing settings?

Have a week to decide on my options for my 25 before it goes to build, might just add Zero Off...

I'm sorry but the dealer has not gave me any real answers as yet....:( this forum has more answers then them ... Lol that is the trouble my way....:(
I've had to teach my self how to operate most of the dash and tower camera. They just sell boats lol.
Glad you like my x25 I really like the colour orange as you see. The boat has to have some ronix signs on it yet and the rego is changing to GIGGLEN as this is my personal rego.....;)
Good luck with you new x25 and I look forward to some pics....:)

EA2010
11-06-2011, 02:01 PM
I ordered my X-25 with Zero Off, but I don't think the issue you're seeing is the fault of the PP.

The boat calculates speed mechanically, using a fly-wheel type mechanism that spins from the force of water passing along the hull. In choppy water, the fly-wheel rotation is going to be affected, making it difficult for the PP to keep a steady speed. This is where you find yourself having to manually adjust the throttle position, which is tedious.

When I test drove the X-25, the actual speed would constantly be 2-3 mph over where the PP was set.

By going Zero Off, the boat will now use GPS to monitor speed. Water conditions will not affect the speedo - and GPS is way more accurate. I think this is the only way to manage speed without having to toy with the throttle.

Ozzy X25
11-06-2011, 03:08 PM
I ordered my X-25 with Zero Off, but I don't think the issue you're seeing is the fault of the PP.

The boat calculates speed mechanically, using a fly-wheel type mechanism that spins from the force of water passing along the hull. In choppy water, the fly-wheel rotation is going to be affected, making it difficult for the PP to keep a steady speed. This is where you find yourself having to manually adjust the throttle position, which is tedious.

When I test drove the X-25, the actual speed would constantly be 2-3 mph over where the PP was set.

By going Zero Off, the boat will now use GPS to monitor speed. Water conditions will not affect the speedo - and GPS is way more accurate. I think this is the only way to manage speed without having to toy with the throttle.

Thanks mate , What does the screen look like with Zero off...??? I know I have the navagation system but they didnt show me how to work it....lol maybe I have Zero off ....lol I bought this boat off the show room and didnt spec it, I need to do some study on all this.....:o

EA2010
11-06-2011, 03:45 PM
Thanks mate , What does the screen look like with Zero off...???

I don't know for sure as I just ordered my X-25. It's winter here up in Canada!!! :mad:

I was told that the Zero Off uses the B.I.G. just like PP. It actually replaces the PP software - so I assume that would need to be discussed with your dealer.

They have to add a GPS puck to calculate speed. This would feed data into the Zero Off system, but I have yet to actually use it myself ...

Good luck!

jwardenjr
11-07-2011, 07:04 PM
Sorry I have not posted back but been burning the hours on the new boat. We just hit 65 hrs on the new boat. This is what we have found with the perfect pass ... The unit just don't work in MPH mode it wont hold a constant speed period and it is always hunting you can be going 3-4 over then 3-4 under. However if you switch it to RPM mode it works like a champ ... it holds the speed right on ? not sure why but it works. We the just bump the rpm or move the wake plate to adjust the speed from there. We also bumped the cs# to 800. I pull the kids at 2850 or 2900 which is 18.7 to 19 mph on my boat with the stock OJ # 522 prop

nmcjr
11-07-2011, 07:23 PM
You shouldn't have to do that--is your dealer still working on a proper fix? I wouldn't let them off the hook.

jwardenjr
11-07-2011, 07:30 PM
You shouldn't have to do that--is your dealer still working on a proper fix? I wouldn't let them off the hook.

yes ... trust me it will be right or I will have zero off for free ! but till then I have a work around

Ozzy X25
11-09-2011, 04:28 PM
Sorry I have not posted back but been burning the hours on the new boat. We just hit 65 hrs on the new boat. This is what we have found with the perfect pass ... The unit just don't work in MPH mode it wont hold a constant speed period and it is always hunting you can be going 3-4 over then 3-4 under. However if you switch it to RPM mode it works like a champ ... it holds the speed right on ? not sure why but it works. We the just bump the rpm or move the wake plate to adjust the speed from there. We also bumped the cs# to 800. I pull the kids at 2850 or 2900 which is 18.7 to 19 mph on my boat with the stock OJ # 522 prop

No prob , I will try this set up and see if it improves......:cool: Thanks for all the help from all you guys ....:) I really do appreciate it. how do I actually do this change ...????

jwardenjr
11-09-2011, 05:29 PM
No prob , I will try this set up and see if it improves......:cool: Thanks for all the help from all you guys ....:) I really do appreciate it. how do I actually do this change ...????

while in your cruise screen on the left side you will see a button that says RPM Mode ... you will not see it if you have already activated the cruise system to the on position

Ozzy X25
11-09-2011, 06:06 PM
while in your cruise screen on the left side you will see a button that says RPM Mode ... you will not see it if you have already activated the cruise system to the on position

Just went out and had a play and all I do is press the arrow button when on cruise screen and it changes to rpm....:D I also went into the settings and changed the calabration setting to 800 also .....so well see how it goes this weekend .
Thanbks again for all the Help.....:cool:

jwardenjr
11-09-2011, 07:28 PM
Just went out and had a play and all I do is press the arrow button when on cruise screen and it changes to rpm....:D I also went into the settings and changed the calabration setting to 800 also .....so well see how it goes this weekend .
Thanbks again for all the Help.....:cool:

It should work better ... not sure what speed your at but 2950 is about 19 mph with about 70% wakeplate thats where I pull the kids. I just make 25 rpm bumps to adjust the speed from there. Let me know how it works ... I am going to my house in Parker AZ for 9 days over Thanksgiving looks like I will have about 75+ weather and water should be holding in the low to mid 60's still ... I am going to play with the settings and set everyones profile in RPM's

BHT
11-10-2011, 01:39 PM
jwardenjr is your PP the Star Gazer model using GPS?

jwardenjr
11-10-2011, 04:30 PM
jwardenjr is your PP the Star Gazer model using GPS?

it uses a paddle wheel ? It is built in the BIG system they are just using the PP software.