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  #11  
Old 01-27-2014, 10:08 AM
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Traxx822 Traxx822 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Analog View Post
A few sound system basics to follow would be....
*Do not place an IB (infinite baffle) woofer in a small sealed enclosure, although a 10-inch IB does view a sealed enclosure of 2.25 cu.ft. or larger as infinite, but that is a very large box. JL Audio also makes the identical marine 10-inch subwoofer in a W-series, which is an air/acoustic suspension woofer intended for a small box (best results are a 1.0 cu.ft. box). 2.25cuft under my helm is no problem.
*Never under any circumstances use a high 'Q' IB woofer in a bass-reflex/ported application. Bass-reflex specifically requires a lower 'Q' woofer.
Noted
*Do not place a fullrange coaxial and IB sub side-by-side, in close proximity, in the same cavity without some form of isolation chamber. The smaller fullrange speaker becomes a sympathetic radiator for the dominant sub = nasty modulation distortion.
This was already brought up on the forum, old photo. We built an enclosure around the around the 7.7
*If you want any degree of bass tonal contruction (pitch accuracy, sound quality, etc.) then use all identical subs, all tightly collected in the same location, loaded in the same form of enclosure (whether I.B., A.S., or Bass-reflex), oriented the same, and loaded into the boat the same. Otherwise you have created phase soup. Will you still get more bass output as you indiscrimanently add more woofers and power? Sure. But never with the SQ and efficiency as the initial and best positioned sub.
Thanks for the tips, Retail space is short so where do you suggest? FYI they will not fit under my seats, or in lockers. And i'm surely not going to point them at each other one in each side of the walk through. So one where existing and one where my feet go. Thats about all the space I have left on my 1995 20' Maristar.
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  #12  
Old 01-27-2014, 10:20 AM
bsloop bsloop is offline
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This situation is a prime example of why every boat should have dedicated zone amps.

As speakers change, usually amp needs will change as well. With multi use amps, that means a compromise in amplification or wasted $$ for features not necessary. Also, if one part fails, the entire setup (usually overly expensive) does not need to be replaced, the rest soldiers on.

First, the sub question - A single 12" at the drivers feet, preferably ported, but sealed is simpler, would be my recommendation. Don't continue to get hung up on the need for "marine". Your application will be non-salt and protected. Any good sub with synthetic cone and rubber surround is a viable solution. A 12" will be significantly louder than a pair of 10" IB and eliminate potential standing wave and passive radiator problems pointed out above.
Install a dedicated mono amp.

Personally, I do not get hung up on single brand brain washing. Sometimes a brand is designed and "tuned" to sound the way that mfg wants something to sound but sometimes parts of their line undergo redevelopment or are simply the closest fit. Either way, what sounds good musically to one's ear, does not sound as good to another or in a different environment.

IF you are married to JL amps, I would consider Rockford P3 or T1 or Kicker L7. The tight JL will keep things very controlled while the extra efficiency of the other sub brands will give an additional sound boost.
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  #13  
Old 01-27-2014, 10:31 AM
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Traxx822 Traxx822 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsloop View Post
This situation is a prime example of why every boat should have dedicated zone amps.

As speakers change, usually amp needs will change as well. With multi use amps, that means a compromise in amplification or wasted $$ for features not necessary. Also, if one part fails, the entire setup (usually overly expensive) does not need to be replaced, the rest soldiers on.

First, the sub question - A single 12" at the drivers feet, preferably ported, but sealed is simpler, would be my recommendation. Don't continue to get hung up on the need for "marine". Your application will be non-salt and protected. Any good sub with synthetic cone and rubber surround is a viable solution. A 12" will be significantly louder than a pair of 10" IB and eliminate potential standing wave and passive radiator problems pointed out above.
Install a dedicated mono amp.

Personally, I do not get hung up on single brand brain washing. Sometimes a brand is designed and "tuned" to sound the way that mfg wants something to sound but sometimes parts of their line undergo redevelopment or are simply the closest fit. Either way, what sounds good musically to one's ear, does not sound as good to another or in a different environment.

IF you are married to JL amps, I would consider Rockford P3 or T1 or Kicker L7. The tight JL will keep things very controlled while the extra efficiency of the other sub brands will give an additional sound boost.
Thanks loop, I will stick with the mono amp for the two subs. And since my boat stays moored in the water (not on lift) and I do travel to coastal waters I would like to stick with the JL subs because of their ability to withstand the elements better than any other brand.

As well, the JL amps for the limited space. Most every other area in my boat gets wet. Under the seats, in lockers etc. So in the observers locker is the only place I can put amps. Not to mention I don't want 5 batteries in my boat. I have 2 now and have never run out of power.

I'm kinda stuck with the subs I have. One is installed in the walk through. I can never get that piece back unless I reupholstered it and put the fiberglass back. So it's gone. The other sub I got for $100 on the forum. It was too good a deal to pass up. I don't want booming bass. I don't need it. I just want a bit more than I have now.

So I think you are basically answering my question that the subs should be run Mono like I thought, and instead of having an amp that has parts unused and just upgrade to the 800/8 so I can conserve on wall space.

And I'm not brand brainwashed ... I have a WS420sq installed
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  #14  
Old 01-27-2014, 10:38 AM
bsloop bsloop is offline
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As for enclosures. Like the advice in every other thread.
Sealed is easy with tighter sound that some rock music lovers prefer since the bass drum kicks truer.
Ported requires a little more space but is within the 2.25 cu ft you mention and I can assure you there are MANY boats with a ported 12" under the console. Definitely within the capabilities of an amateur but better results will usually come from a pro build or pre made box. Bass will carry farther and the thumping boom of pop tracks that are produced with electronic bass machines will usually perform best.
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  #15  
Old 01-27-2014, 10:51 AM
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Traxx822 Traxx822 is offline
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Thanks again, Yeah ... i don't work on my own boat, for deniable responsibility, I have a professional installer that will build a proper sealed box custom to fit under there.

This sub box will also help out with my under dash panel, because I can get rid of that annoying cover under the helm that does nothing but fall down anyways. Two birds in one stone.

I don';t know why everyone is suggesting 12's and bigger. I have one 10IB5 with 300 watts and it shakes the entire boat. I think 2 will be plenty for my tastes.

I do have a friend with a go fast boat ... has maybe $45 clarion speakers ... but 2 alpine type R's in a ported box with a RF 1600 and he thinks his system is so baaaaad. Because his bass is louder than mine and I spent a lot more. Not to mention all you hear is nasty bass and no music with his ... I still can't be turning up one sub and feel all that cool. One more would be plenty for me.
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  #16  
Old 01-27-2014, 11:24 AM
bsloop bsloop is offline
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Selling a used 700/5 and 400/4 amps will likely not cover a new 800/8.
Minimal horizontal space will be gained since your existing amps are about 19" wide and the 800 is 15" wide.
Another 600 requires 9". From the pic, it would be very tight to get both 15 and 9 side by side in your current location. Best bet would be move the current amps higher and invert the new mono so there is a common wire alley. The simple mono controls should not be difficult to read upside down.
The unused amp portion will draw no more current.

What ever sub you want, I would definitely do 12" under console. In a sealed enclosure, extra marine coating of wires is useless and actually detrimental since it has an insulating effect that will tend to burn up the voice coil after long play. The plastic and rubber surround of any brand mentioned will perform more than adequate in the location and use you described.
If you are the tight sound type, an enclosure will sound better AND louder than an IB. IB is a compromise. The only reasons boat mfg use IB is they are cheap to install and don't want to sacrifice advertised space anywhere. The second IB will not give you THAT much more sound. Its like using two of those tiny dot band-aids to cover a cut.

I recommend selling both 10" IB. If you got one cheap then you should come out ahead on the deal. Cover the hole with a grille. When you are feeling really pimp custom, give yourself a b-day present of a piece of acrylic etched with MasterCraft or logo of your choice with blue led highlight.
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2014, 11:28 AM
bsloop bsloop is offline
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Sorry on the follow up above on ported.

You type replies faster than I
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2014, 11:37 AM
bsloop bsloop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traxx822 View Post
I don';t know why everyone is suggesting 12's and bigger. I have one 10IB5 with 300 watts and it shakes the entire boat. I think 2 will be plenty for my tastes.

I do have a friend with a go fast boat ... has maybe $45 clarion speakers ... but 2 alpine type R's in a ported box with a RF 1600 and he thinks his system is so baaaaad. Because his bass is louder than mine and I spent a lot more. Not to mention all you hear is nasty bass and no music with his ... I still can't be turning up one sub and feel all that cool. One more would be plenty for me.
So you know its a crappy install pretty much top to bottom.
Don't judge what a properly installed and balanced system will sound like off of that.

A sealed enclosure WILL have better sound than an IB, quality being held constant.
12" enclosure is no more than a 10" and 12" speaker is probably less than two IB. You have enough in everything else, even if its not an exact savings, trust me on this one.
WS 420 has a separate bass control, use it.
There will be times you can turn it down, other times you will appreciate the extra on tap (like when your buddy is two boats down)

Finished with my sales pitch. Let us know how it turns out.........
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  #19  
Old 01-27-2014, 12:51 PM
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David Analog David Analog is offline
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Here is an option not yet discussed.
If (a big 'if') the space is avaiable under the port helm console, build a custom manifold to funnel the output of your two IB 10"s through a vent in the pass-through similar to the existing woofer location. However, the vent opening would have to be expanded to the surface area of no less than a 12-inch woofer, and the manifold, at any transmission point, could not reduce the radiating surface area of the collective subs. The manifold would also have to be short in length. Both drivers would have to be equally positioned relative to the vent. This would keep everything direct radiating and require no enclosure, except for the manifold.
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  #20  
Old 01-27-2014, 12:52 PM
bsloop bsloop is offline
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Panorama pic inside my buddy's Scarab.
It had tons of old speaker holes cut low (they installed new, higher up when they recovered the entire boat)
Also had 4 10" holes across the back seat. They installed 3 12".
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