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  #31  
Old 06-07-2013, 03:13 PM
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Aric'sX15 Aric'sX15 is offline
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The circuit panel that's on the ballast relays if that makes sense?
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  #32  
Old 06-07-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Aric'sX15 View Post
The circuit panel that's on the ballast relays if that makes sense?
Sorry. Relays where the master power switch is?
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  #33  
Old 06-07-2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Aric'sX15 View Post
Try the breaker. Was out on a 2013 supra SA450 last night and the ballast showed it was full, but they weren't. Flipped the breaker and they're golden. The ballast timers show they're full based on the time the switch is on, there isn't a float or anything to my knowledge.
There is a timer and a sender (not sure how the sender works). I verified this through my dealer who verified through MC.
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  #34  
Old 06-07-2013, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick911 View Post
There is a timer and a sender (not sure how the sender works). I verified this through my dealer who verified through MC.
So the way the 2010 worked (and I realize your new systems may be different) is that the ballast in the Rider settings of the BIG/Viper/Medallion was controlled via timer. So lets say you have the pump on that tank set for 2 minutes fill time. And you have a Rider setting that is set for 50% on that tank. Then the Big will run that pump for 1 minute (.5 x 2 minutes) to get a 50% full tank. The display of the ballast tank is via the sender. It took my dealer (no fault of theirs) a long time to get this information from Mastercraft. I actually came to this conclusion before I got the explanation from MC.

My experience was that, if I remember to run the boat at a consistent 1500 RPM while filling the tank, I would get close to the correct % as long as I had the run time set pretty close to what it would take to achieve 100% full ballast tank. If I forgot to run the engine at 1500 RPM (or any other variable like driving the boat while filling/emptying ballast) while filling the ballast then I got way different that the % that the rider setting was set for. That makes sense because if you listen to you ballast pump run, running at 1500 RPM over idle, the pump runs much faster/harder; I assume that this is because it needs/gets the extra juice provided by running the alternator faster - just stands to reason. Things got further off if I switch from one rider to another without emptying.

I do understand that your issue sounds different. I just encourage you to keep pinging on MC to explain how yours works (the technical details not appearances) as there may be some rhyme and reason to it.
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  #35  
Old 06-07-2013, 06:26 PM
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dgall dgall is offline
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I experienced a similar issue in my 2013 X10. Have 400lbs extra in each rear locker, stock in the middle. After extensive talks with my dealer, I think they've got the issue tracked down (will let you know this weekend as I'm picking it up from the dealer tomorrow morning).

Basically, there was a venting issue in the extra sacs that causes them to not drain at the speed they should while the pumps are running. So, you'll run the pump to drain from 100% to 0 (this is all based on time), then then shut off the engine (I found you can leave the electrical on and still have the issue). Restarting the engine, the sensors read the water level in the stock ballast tanks only, so lets say because of the venting issue, you only got the extra sac empty, but the stock is still full, it will say you're at 100%. It can be really frustrating when it says you're at 75% full, so you fill that last 25% to find it hasn't touched your bags at all - this really ruined my experience first time out.

Anyways, the whole issue is caused by the sensors only being able to read the stock ballast level, but using timers to run the fill/empty cycles. So, you'll need to always leave your boat 100% empty (or 100% full), otherwise when you cycle power it will give you ballast levels that aren't taking the bags into account. This whole issue is made worse with the venting issues because the empty timers get out of whack. My dealer is fixing the venting issue which should hopefully allow me to leave the boat at actually 100% or 0% whenever I cycle the engine on/off.

For those who like numbers...say you have a 500 stock tank, and 500lb bag working together:

If you're starting from empty, and fill the boat to 25% you'd have 250lbs.
If you then cycle the engine on and off, your gauges will say 50% at that corner, because the sensors read 50% full in the stock tank.
You then try to fill that corner all the way up, but your timer will stop at 750lbs because it thought you were half-full.
If you then turn the engine on/off again, it will say 100% full, and you can never get that last 250lbs in.

So, you have to always start at 0% ballast. You can do this from the initial scenario where we had 250lbs in:
Gauges read 50% full - tell them to empty.
It will empty in half the time it thinks it should, at which time you could either cycle power or just let the pumps run (not sure of long-term implications of doing that though?)
You'll then be at true 0%, and you can actually start filling now.

Hope that helps shed some light on the issue!
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  #36  
Old 06-07-2013, 06:42 PM
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I have a 2013 x10, not a big fan of the system. I think it would be much better to turn a switch on until the water comes out of the overflow and be done with it. I can generally tell when they are empty by the sound of the pumps.
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  #37  
Old 06-07-2013, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneBoatN View Post
So the way the 2010 worked (and I realize your new systems may be different) is that the ballast in the Rider settings of the BIG/Viper/Medallion was controlled via timer. So lets say you have the pump on that tank set for 2 minutes fill time. And you have a Rider setting that is set for 50% on that tank. Then the Big will run that pump for 1 minute (.5 x 2 minutes) to get a 50% full tank. The display of the ballast tank is via the sender. It took my dealer (no fault of theirs) a long time to get this information from Mastercraft. I actually came to this conclusion before I got the explanation from MC.

My experience was that, if I remember to run the boat at a consistent 1500 RPM while filling the tank, I would get close to the correct % as long as I had the run time set pretty close to what it would take to achieve 100% full ballast tank. If I forgot to run the engine at 1500 RPM (or any other variable like driving the boat while filling/emptying ballast) while filling the ballast then I got way different that the % that the rider setting was set for. That makes sense because if you listen to you ballast pump run, running at 1500 RPM over idle, the pump runs much faster/harder; I assume that this is because it needs/gets the extra juice provided by running the alternator faster - just stands to reason. Things got further off if I switch from one rider to another without emptying.

I do understand that your issue sounds different. I just encourage you to keep pinging on MC to explain how yours works (the technical details not appearances) as there may be some rhyme and reason to it.
Thanks for the in depth input. So to summarize:

The timers are strictly to tell the pumps hot long to empty or fill, and the gauge at that time is indicating fill levels based on that timing metric. However, the senders will determine actual level. So, senders determine level, timers determine fill time. Makes sense, and no doubt there is some variability based on engine RPM.
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  #38  
Old 06-07-2013, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgall View Post
I experienced a similar issue in my 2013 X10. Have 400lbs extra in each rear locker, stock in the middle. After extensive talks with my dealer, I think they've got the issue tracked down (will let you know this weekend as I'm picking it up from the dealer tomorrow morning).

Basically, there was a venting issue in the extra sacs that causes them to not drain at the speed they should while the pumps are running. So, you'll run the pump to drain from 100% to 0 (this is all based on time), then then shut off the engine (I found you can leave the electrical on and still have the issue). Restarting the engine, the sensors read the water level in the stock ballast tanks only, so lets say because of the venting issue, you only got the extra sac empty, but the stock is still full, it will say you're at 100%. It can be really frustrating when it says you're at 75% full, so you fill that last 25% to find it hasn't touched your bags at all - this really ruined my experience first time out.

Anyways, the whole issue is caused by the sensors only being able to read the stock ballast level, but using timers to run the fill/empty cycles. So, you'll need to always leave your boat 100% empty (or 100% full), otherwise when you cycle power it will give you ballast levels that aren't taking the bags into account. This whole issue is made worse with the venting issues because the empty timers get out of whack. My dealer is fixing the venting issue which should hopefully allow me to leave the boat at actually 100% or 0% whenever I cycle the engine on/off.

For those who like numbers...say you have a 500 stock tank, and 500lb bag working together:

If you're starting from empty, and fill the boat to 25% you'd have 250lbs.
If you then cycle the engine on and off, your gauges will say 50% at that corner, because the sensors read 50% full in the stock tank.
You then try to fill that corner all the way up, but your timer will stop at 750lbs because it thought you were half-full.
If you then turn the engine on/off again, it will say 100% full, and you can never get that last 250lbs in.

So, you have to always start at 0% ballast. You can do this from the initial scenario where we had 250lbs in:
Gauges read 50% full - tell them to empty.
It will empty in half the time it thinks it should, at which time you could either cycle power or just let the pumps run (not sure of long-term implications of doing that though?)
You'll then be at true 0%, and you can actually start filling now.

Hope that helps shed some light on the issue!
Ok. This does explain everything, the key being that the extra bags are screwing up the venting. I thought this as the suction does constrict the bags which can restrict venting. You are right then that even with venting fixed, the system can only be used at 100% or 0%, and nowhere in between.

For example, my plan on my 25 was to fill rear tanks to 33% (which would be my stock tanks full) for wakeboarding. This will work until I turn the engine off where it will then go to 100% (which it is).

Ill spend some time next time on the water testing this very theory.

Lastly, how is your dealer planning on fixing the venting issue?
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  #39  
Old 06-08-2013, 11:55 AM
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GoneBoatN GoneBoatN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick911 View Post
Thanks for the in depth input. So to summarize:

The timers are strictly to tell the pumps hot long to empty or fill, and the gauge at that time is indicating fill levels based on that timing metric. However, the senders will determine actual level. So, senders determine level, timers determine fill time. Makes sense, and no doubt there is some variability based on engine RPM.
Yes, that is the way it works on my 2010 with Medallion controls. I can't think of another way they would use "timers and senders" but who know except for Mastercraft and Murphy...
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  #40  
Old 06-09-2013, 09:58 AM
mthon7 mthon7 is offline
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I only have 30 hours on my X-30 but I am having the same problem. I will fill tanks and they show 100% but after surfing for a few minutes the screen will show 47%. Also my center tank fill quicker than others which seems backwards. When I refill tanks I get immediate overflow. It is a bit frustrating as the seemingly lower tech system on our 09 X-15 did cause this problem because I could not see fill level.
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