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  #11  
Old 05-02-2013, 03:10 PM
bsloop bsloop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02ProstarSammyD View Post
^that was my thought. Not the same system. Also I like the sealed units in the bottom pic as opposed to mine and yours
These are original pics from when the 6500 was first introduced.
The first Kicker pic is the system laying on someone's desk (not mine, have WS 485)
Second pic is a "pretty" example of just the speaker components. The cross overs are raw mounted on the back of the speakers.
Crossovers generate heat so in general you would not want to "seal" them.
I know WS mounts their 485 crossover to the roof of the enclosure. Krypt sends the crossover raw in the box and you install it in the can and the user installs it with adhesive.
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  #12  
Old 05-02-2013, 03:24 PM
02ProstarSammyD 02ProstarSammyD is offline
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Quote:
Second pic is a "pretty" example of just the speaker components. The cross overs are raw mounted on the back of the speakers.
Crossovers generate heat so in general you would not want to "seal" them.
Looked like heat sinks on the sides

Quote:
I know WS mounts their 485 crossover to the roof of the enclosure. Krypt sends the crossover raw in the box and you install it in the can and the user installs it with adhesive.
You "can" remove them with the kickers or so I've heard. Just takes alil work. Not sure why you would except the depth is insane on the horns. I have zero space in my can's and if they were 1/2" shorter I would have been buying led rings to compensate
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  #13  
Old 05-04-2013, 08:10 PM
MLA MLA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsloop View Post
These are original pics from when the 6500 was first introduced.
The first Kicker pic is the system laying on someone's desk (not mine, have WS 485)
Second pic is a "pretty" example of just the speaker components. The cross overs are raw mounted on the back of the speakers.
Crossovers generate heat so in general you would not want to "seal" them.
I know WS mounts their 485 crossover to the roof of the enclosure. Krypt sends the crossover raw in the box and you install it in the can and the user installs it with adhesive.
Bsloop,

I know who's desk that is, maybe i can get him to chime in and answer your questions. If im not mistaken, that actual set in that pic ended up on a promo boat I did.

I am well aware of the difference between the KM6500.2 and the KMT60, never said they were the same system, so im sorry if that impression was given. The KMT60 comes as two pods, each loaded with a pair of 6.5 mid-bass woofers flanking a horn. The KM6500.2 setup is a pair of horns and a pair of 6.5" mid-bass woofers sold as raw drivers, no pods. Each horn and woofer get wired in parallel. Even though each component has a 4 ohm nominal impedance, the cross-over allows both components to maintain a 4 ohm load at the amp. This makes bridging on a 4 chnl amp ideal. The KMT60 on the other hand, has a slightly less then 4 ohm nominal impedance, so a 2 chnl amp is the ideal choice.

The depth of the KM6500.2 horn is a shade over 7". This allows it to fit most aftermarket pods, but not all. For those that are a little too shallow, the cross-over can be removed and mounted remotely.
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  #14  
Old 05-06-2013, 10:33 AM
02ProstarSammyD 02ProstarSammyD is offline
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Quote:
Even though each component has a 4 ohm nominal impedance, the cross-over allows both components to maintain a 4 ohm load at the amp. This makes bridging on a 4 chnl amp ideal.
Is that the same for the 6500.2? I mean I hate to ask a dumb question but I don't have mine bridged right now
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  #15  
Old 05-06-2013, 12:29 PM
bsloop bsloop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02ProstarSammyD View Post
Looked like heat sinks on the sides



You "can" remove them with the kickers or so I've heard. Just takes alil work. Not sure why you would except the depth is insane on the horns. I have zero space in my can's and if they were 1/2" shorter I would have been buying led rings to compensate
Sorry we may not have been looking at the same thing. The fins in the lower, "clean" pic are heat sinks. I thought you were implying Kicker had contained the crossover parts, which they had not, they simply are not pictured to give full view of the speaker components.

I am not sure what the purpose of the 4 ceramic-like blocks are below the board in the "desk" pic. Possibly insulating spacers between the horn magnet and circuit board or they may serve an electrical purpose and this was the most compact way to package???

Quote:
Originally Posted by MLA View Post
Bsloop,

I know who's desk that is, maybe i can get him to chime in and answer your questions. If im not mistaken, that actual set in that pic ended up on a promo boat I did.

I am well aware of the difference between the KM6500.2 and the KMT60, never said they were the same system, so im sorry if that impression was given. The KMT60 comes as two pods, each loaded with a pair of 6.5 mid-bass woofers flanking a horn. The KM6500.2 setup is a pair of horns and a pair of 6.5" mid-bass woofers sold as raw drivers, no pods. Each horn and woofer get wired in parallel. Even though each component has a 4 ohm nominal impedance, the cross-over allows both components to maintain a 4 ohm load at the amp. This makes bridging on a 4 chnl amp ideal. The KMT60 on the other hand, has a slightly less then 4 ohm nominal impedance, so a 2 chnl amp is the ideal choice.

The depth of the KM6500.2 horn is a shade over 7". This allows it to fit most aftermarket pods, but not all. For those that are a little too shallow, the cross-over can be removed and mounted remotely.
MLA, your initial response, post #2 to the OP's question indicates there is a HLCD for the highs on a KMT60, I believe this statement to be false. I don't think a 3/4" tweet can be classified as a compression driver in this application. Horn loaded, yes, just as kicker describes.
I have no idea how much experience you have with the kicker product nor did you make any statements.
I DO have a beef with the way Kicker has chosen to twist their wording and product packaging to make the KMT60 appear like a comparable set up to WetSounds 485 and other true HLCD products. The KMT60s I have heard are gutless imitations of a HLCD that sound like a piezo tweeter and two 6.5 which is why they have a total rms of only 150w each, no different than any other pair of midlevel coax speakers.

I would be interested in seeing the internals of a KMT60.


To the original OPs question - KMT60's have their place and price point. Buyers need to see though the hype and understand these are price point, poser speakers not a performance setup.
If the goal is to look cool, this system will do it. It will not be loud and clear the way a WS485/410 will be at rope length roaring down the lake. In the cove, it will sound just like every other set of average coax speakers in cans; usually over worked in their attempt to be heard at a distance and indistinguishable over the next boat playing two down.
$550 is not that much for tower speakers. Sammy's original suggestion is a very good option for a low budget. You could also look at the Krypt HLCD on ebay, cans are separate.
audio is like anything else on a B.O.A.T.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 02ProstarSammyD View Post
Is that the same for the 6500.2? I mean I hate to ask a dumb question but I don't have mine bridged right now
Sammy, according to Kicker, the 6500.2 is designed for the woof and tweet to be in parallel running to one channel. If you have a 4 channel, bridge to two channel and parallel each pair and you will double output which should increase head room (sound better). Readjust gain appropriately. If you have a two channel, you could bridge to mono and parallel the setup to yield more power as long as the amp is 2ohm stable.

Bridging a 4ch essentially works two channels at a 2ohm load which sums to 4 ohm for each side.

The KMT60 comes in a little less than 4 ohm due to the dual woofers/single tweet so they would really work a bridged 4 channel or paralleling two of those would show less than a 2ohm load which would really work a 2 channel bridged.
Both examples are especially true with the usually comparably cheap amps that would be used to power these systems.

I have a Rockford T600-4 that is bridged with 2 ohm loads. It gets hot quicker and I accept the lower efficiency and increased distortion in its applicaiton. I use a fan to avoid thermal shut down but has played fine for 4 years of long, hard play. I attribute this to a better quality amp and sufficient voltage.
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  #16  
Old 05-06-2013, 02:56 PM
02ProstarSammyD 02ProstarSammyD is offline
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Quote:
Sammy, according to Kicker, the 6500.2 is designed for the woof and tweet to be in parallel running to one channel. If you have a 4 channel, bridge to two channel and parallel each pair and you will double output which should increase head room (sound better). Readjust gain appropriately. If you have a two channel, you could bridge to mono and parallel the setup to yield more power as long as the amp is 2ohm stable.

Bridging a 4ch essentially works two channels at a 2ohm load which sums to 4 ohm for each side.
Yea maybe I was thinking about the 6 pack schematic vs the 4 pack. So essentially I could take out the 4 pair wiring (8wires) and throw in 2 pairs (4 wire) and run from the horns to the mid bass? or do I need to still run the 4 pairs and bridge it at the amp? Tomato? Tomatoe? Sorry if this is a dumb question. The only downside to the refurbs is I didn't get an install manual and the one online sucks
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  #17  
Old 05-06-2013, 04:13 PM
MLA MLA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02ProstarSammyD View Post
Is that the same for the 6500.2? I mean I hate to ask a dumb question but I don't have mine bridged right now
Not a dumb question at all. All 4 components of the KM6500.2 setup by themselves are 4 ohm nominal impedance. The traditional configuration is to pair a horn and mid together in parallel (+ to +/- to -). Due to the internals of the cross-over, the final load at the amp is still 4 ohm. This makes the base 4 component KM6500.2 ideal to wire to a 2 chnl amp, each pair on its own chnl, or to bridge on a 2 ohm x 4 stable 4 chnl amp. So great flexibility with this setup. Now, when adding the extra mids for the 6 pod setup, you can wire the extra mids in parallel for a 2 ohm. In this manor, the ideal amp is a 2chnl. Or, you can bi-amp with a pair of 4 chnls as we have done a number of times. The extra mids get their own 4 chnl amp

The KMT60 comes in just a shade under 4 ohm per pod. They are pre-wired internally to the pods binding posts, no need to figure out any wiring configuration as with the KM6500.2. Music is so dynamic, that during the course of a song, they can easily dip to 3.0 ohm. If bridged on a 4 chnl amp, this may send it into protect mode. For this reason, a 2 chnl amp is best as opposed to bridging them on a 4 chnl.
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  #18  
Old 05-06-2013, 04:47 PM
02ProstarSammyD 02ProstarSammyD is offline
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So this looks correct? I can just tap off the termination points at the horn or need to tee off before?

apologize for the quality of the sketch

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  #19  
Old 05-06-2013, 05:45 PM
philwsailz philwsailz is offline
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Hey guys-

Phil from Kicker here. MLA suggested I might pop in above, and then he sent me a note to come take a look...

First off, the KMT60 is horn loaded, and benefits greatly from the horn. It is NOT HLCD but it is horn loaded. As pointed out, there is a difference, but it is subtle. The KMT60 High-Frequency section is going to be louder than if you listened to the dome in the KMT60 in the near-field without the horn. It is also going to be louder than even a 1”-dome coaxial as well, again due to the horn. Consider this: Are you able to shout louder and further by cupping your hands around your mouth? You are not introducing compression, but you are modifying wave dispersion, and focusing the energy of your shout so that it has a higher amplitude where you are aiming…

HLCD - CD for Compression Driver...
The compression aspect of a HLCD HF driver system is what gives it most of its acoustical-mechanical characteristics. In a compression-loaded transducer we use a driver with a larger diaphragm than the orifice or mouth of the horn. The constriction and subsequent horn geometry provide a mechanical circuit that limits linear excursion of the compression driver. That is what give an HLCD its incredible efficiency and power handling. The horn’s orifice/mouth, and its subsequent flare rate and length determine the mechanical cutoff frequency; the longer the horn, the lower the driver can play before it starts to exceed its mechanical travel limits. The driver is capable of playing a lot lower with the horn attached, due to the fact that the horn and driver assembled as a unit have a much lower resonance than the raw compression driver itself.

The compression orifice combined with the horn provide the acoustical transformer, (lust like an electronic transformer or ignition coil) function, changing high velocity-high pressure airflow into high pressure-high amplitude air flow. Think about a trumpet. You can hold a tissue in front of your mouth and blow it while buzzing your lips and you can blow the tissue away from your face. Put the trumpet on those buzzing lips and it gets a LOT louder, yet you cannot cause the tissue to even move when placed in front of the trumpet.

Beyond that, the horn itself provides the focused dispersion and higher amplitide that any horn provides, with a compression driver or not.

Bottom line, The horn benefits both KMT60 and KM6500.2 designs, yet does so in two different ways.


bsloop -the white ceramic devices on the horn crossover are resistors. They are electrically part of the crossover. Partly Zoebel circuit, partly L-pad, so the KM6500.2 can be used with the extra KM6500 mids by changing the attenuation jumper on the horn crossover from 0 dB to +6 dB


Also know we are not deviously initiating any marketing sleight-of hand... Tim White at Wetsounds and I are friends. We would be laughing together at the thought that Kicker were marketing the KMT60 to be a 485 replacement. That right there is just funny, as the 485 is really in a different league. We brought the KMT60 to the market to be a good mid-level tower system that would smoke an old-school set of coaxials in cans...
The KMT60 is what it is, an efficient mid-level product that can be run with a decent stereo amp without breaking the bank, and a demonstrable step-up from the old-school coax. If someone wants to break the bank, a KM6500.2/KM6500 6-pack on a pair of bridged 4-channel amps does the job nicely…

02ProstarSammy-

Your wiring diagram looks right. You can go to eithe rthe mid OR the horn first, just be sure to wire + to + and - to -

Lastly, moderators, know I just registered to come in here and help, not advertise. I will behave, and help out when I can.

Phil
Kicker
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  #20  
Old 05-06-2013, 06:55 PM
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EarmarkMarine EarmarkMarine is offline
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Thanks Phil for bringing some accuracy. This thread was loaded with mis-information, faulty speculation and a really poor understanding of audio in general. To all readers, I would forget most of what you read here.

David
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