Go Back   TeamTalk > Maintenance Tips, How-tos and Refurbishing Topics > Engine / Drive Train

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-04-2017, 07:50 PM
Gsxrgrizz Gsxrgrizz is offline
TT Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: 2007 Mastercraft X-15
Location: Southwest...Canada
Posts: 103
2007 Mastercraft X-15

PLEASE HELP, I am desperate!!!!

I️ am writing to look for some advice and confirmation on some things that have been told to me by our dealer....sorry if this gets wordy and somewhat confusing!!!!

Background
I bought a 2007 Mastercraft X-15 as our first boat for the wife and kid last summer as they wanted to start surfing here in Canada. It was bought privately and came with paperwork stating it had been inspected and tested in a tank by a local dealer the week before and passed. The boat would start immediately, ran like a dream with no noises or stutters and looked to be in great condition.

After buying it, first time at the lake, the boat was great at idle or just off idle cruising in the water with an oil pressure of 30. When I️ would hit the throttle and the bow would rise, the oil pressure would drop to 10, set off the alarm and go into limp mode. After 6 trips to dealer 1 (not the inspecting dealer) long story short, the oil pickup tube had fallen off.

Currently
While fixing the oil pickup tube the dealer called me in and basically said the bearings showed signs of severe oil starvation from the previous owner and that I would need a new motor from Inmar. The bearings did not look “scored” from the point that there were grooves cut into them but there were “scuff” marks present. Almost like someone took some sand paper or small bearings that rubbed around. Dealer 1 said we had two options...1 was to replace the motor and the second was to use it for the rest of the summer and see what happens. Shortly after this it was discovered the boat had never been inspected at the stated dealer and the paperwork was for another boat (same year) with my serial number on it.

In the end, we chose to do an oil change and elected to use the boat for the final two weeks of summer and hope the motor would make it. For those 2 weeks, I had a constant oil pressure of 30 psi and above and the boat performed flawlessly for 26 hours of surfing IMO as a non mechanic.

Questions
1. If I needed a new engine due to severe bearing damage, would I not be hearing a rattle or clanging noise from the motor? Would I not be experiencing fluctuating oil pressures?

2. The dealer told me I could get 5000 Canadian for my used “long block” which would be 1/2 the engine cost. Another dealer (dealer 2) in passing, told me I would be lucky to get 500.00 for the “core”...now I am confused as to who is right. There is a significant difference in price and that could definitely effect my final decision with reference to a new engine.

3. Dealer 2 said that, based on what I explained and how the boat performed, he did not think I needed a new engine. He wants to do an oil analysis to check for metal stating that if the bearing were damaged that bad, it will show in the oil after 26 hours.

NOW I️ AM SERIOUSLY CONFUSED ON WHAT TO DO......What does everyone else think? Please help!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by Gsxrgrizz; 12-04-2017 at 08:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:29 PM
Thrall's Avatar
Thrall Thrall is offline
MC Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Boat: '06 X2 MCX
Location: Black Diamond, WA
Posts: 4,579
Wow, first off, that stinks.
First, I'd contact the seller, and even though you presume that person hosed, you, explain you're not calling to b!tch at them, but ask the real scoop whether they had this issue at speed/rpms. Tell them you're weighing options and find out if they "tried" running it 20 times like this or dumped it the first time the alarm went off, or even had this issue at all.
Will help decide the magnitude of the potential damage.
Second, how could you see any of the bearing surfaces? Presumably they yanked the motor, re attached the oil pump pickup and put the pan back on. Did they actually take off any main caps or rod caps?
Third, do you have some hours now on the oil? Fire it up and get an oil sample so you have an initial baseline for next year.
Last, unles you get a rod knock, your right, it probably ain't that bad. I certainly would not rebuild it unless high wear metals in an oil sample or a knock.
Last again, lol, don't take it to a boat dealer if you need it rebuilt or a new short or long block. It is a Chevy 350, the simplest, most popular engine ever (even if it's a 6.0 theyre super common) and pulling an engine from a boat is easy as well. Find a good repair shop that you get real reccomendations from.
(Had a buddy who bought a boat with a Mercruiser 350 and he got hosed on the deal, cracked block. The Chapparal dealer charged him 10 grand!!! for a new either short or long block.)
Btw a new quality (rebuilt long block) is like $2000-2500 and I'd expect About 2 days labor.
All in, new motor you can be under $5000....if you even need one.
__________________
'06 X2 MCX

"I understand why some people may not want to do this the way I have recommended but I can't understand the death grip some people have on a toilet plunger with a hose fitting." -JimN
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:46 PM
Thrall's Avatar
Thrall Thrall is offline
MC Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Boat: '06 X2 MCX
Location: Black Diamond, WA
Posts: 4,579
If by southwest, you mean SW Canada, there's plenty of soft water around still, you could always get a 40 of rye, turn the heater on and go run the crap out of it for a day, oil sample, oil change, go run it at full throttle again the next day and sample again.
Then if there is an issue, you can make a deal w a shop during the slow season. And if it just shows high wear metals, see if you can get it tore down and new rod, cap, cam and wrist pin bearings over the winter.

And if it makes you feel better, I'd rather have a bad engine than have to redo the interior...seriously.
__________________
'06 X2 MCX

"I understand why some people may not want to do this the way I have recommended but I can't understand the death grip some people have on a toilet plunger with a hose fitting." -JimN
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:03 PM
Gsxrgrizz Gsxrgrizz is offline
TT Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: 2007 Mastercraft X-15
Location: Southwest...Canada
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
Wow, first off, that stinks.

First, I'd contact the seller, and even though you presume that person hosed, you, explain you're not calling to b!tch at them, but ask the real scoop whether they had this issue at speed/rpms. Tell them you're weighing options and find out if they "tried" running it 20 times like this or dumped it the first time the alarm went off, or even had this issue at all.

Will help decide the magnitude of the potential damage.
First off, thanks for taking the time to reply, I REALLY appreciate it!!!

It does stink but my wife and I️ talked about it and decided to stick with it and repair it to where it needs to be instead of taking a loss and selling it. Honestly, we ended up purchasing it for about 15000 less and anything else comparable so, even after some repairs were still not too upside down.

I did go back to the original owner asking about its history.....he felt really bad and said had he known about the motor he would not have sold it. Granted, he could have been stringing me along but I felt he was genuine. Unfortunately, he bought the boat at an auction based on looks and how it sounded so he too has no idea about the history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
Second, how could you see any of the bearing surfaces? Presumably they yanked the motor, re attached the oil pump pickup and put the pan back on. Did they actually take off any main caps or rod caps?
Yes, dealer 1 originally pulled the motor to see if it was the oil pickup tube. While it was out, they pulled the bearings. Ian not sure if they pulled rod or main caps as I don’t know what those are. Here is a picture along the lines of what we saw



Ours looked pretty close the one on the far right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
Third, do you have some hours now on the oil? Fire it up and get an oil sample so you have an initial baseline for next year.
We do. After the oil change we put roughly 26 hours on it surfing. Dealer 2 wants to cut the oil filter in 1/2, do an oil analysis and spend an hour going over it. Once this has been done, he said he will advise on what he thinks we should do. I am just confused as dealer 1 and dealer 2 are currently COMPLETELY contradicting themselves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
Last, unles you get a rod knock, your right, it probably ain't that bad. I certainly would not rebuild it unless high wear metals in an oil sample or a knock.
Honestly, there is no sound at all ever!!! The engine purrs with no misses, noises, knocks clatters or sputters. It has lots of power, warms up to 160 and stays there. The oil pressure, now that the pickup tube is back on, stays between 30-40 psi all the time. I know the gage works as the boat was hooked up to an analogue gage at the engine and it was bang on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
Last again, lol, don't take it to a boat dealer if you need it rebuilt or a new short or long block. It is a Chevy 350, the simplest, most popular engine ever (even if it's a 6.0 theyre super common) and pulling an engine from a boat is easy as well. Find a good repair shop that you get real reccomendations from.

(Had a buddy who bought a boat with a Mercruiser 350 and he got hosed on the deal, cracked block. The Chapparal dealer charged him 10 grand!!! for a new either short or long block.)

Btw a new quality (rebuilt long block) is like $2000-2500 and I'd expect About 2 days labor.

All in, new motor you can be under $5000....if you even need one.

Is that 5000 US or CDN? Dealer one said 10,000 give or take all in from Inmar. That was the engine, delivery and install.

Also, it sounds like 5000 for a long block is unrealistic as per dealer 1. Dealer 2 said I could expect about 500 Canadian.

So to re-cap, so far, with everything that has been said, it sounds like you would just enjoy it and not do anything? I know it’s hard to truly say without seeing it but.....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-04-2017, 11:40 PM
Thrall's Avatar
Thrall Thrall is offline
MC Maniac
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Boat: '06 X2 MCX
Location: Black Diamond, WA
Posts: 4,579
I'm just throwing out rough numbers, but you could apply the exchange rate I suppose?
Just look up crate motor prices.
Dealer 1 I think is full of......no one pays 5 grand for a Chevy 350 core that needs to be rebuilt.
Even if it just needs bearings and the valve guides and Pistons/cylinders etc are fine, you can't sell it as a new rebuild with all the old parts, so it isn't any better as a core than if it was roached.
Plus they're idiots, if they actually took the main or connecting rod caps off and didn't micrometer them to determine how much wear was present. That would have taken like 5 extra minutes!

A core is a core, to an extent and I'd expect much closer to 500 than 5000.

If there's no knock and the bearings weren't scorched (like the one on the left in that pic) and it's not burning oil, I'd be VERY tempted to just run it. If the engine was getting oil when it starts and then literally went into limp mode a few seconds later and then had oil agian when the angle changed and boat settled back to level, you have a good chance of little to no damage.

You put 26 hard hours on it after the oil pump fix, correct? That's somewhat comparable to 2500 miles on a car.
Realize I'm speculating without seeing the engine and taking a mic to the bearings, but based on what you've said, it doesn't seem so bad.
__________________
'06 X2 MCX

"I understand why some people may not want to do this the way I have recommended but I can't understand the death grip some people have on a toilet plunger with a hose fitting." -JimN
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:36 AM
Gsxrgrizz Gsxrgrizz is offline
TT Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: 2007 Mastercraft X-15
Location: Southwest...Canada
Posts: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
I'm just throwing out rough numbers, but you could apply the exchange rate I suppose?

Just look up crate motor prices.

Dealer 1 I think is full of......no one pays 5 grand for a Chevy 350 core that needs to be rebuilt.
Thanks for the clarification, I just wanted to make sure we were talking the same currency. I`ll do some research as to what a Chevy 350 block is going for in Alberta Canada (SW) but it sounds like dealer 1 is in fact full of it!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
Even if it just needs bearings and the valve guides and Pistons/cylinders etc are fine, you can't sell it as a new rebuild with all the old parts, so it isn't any better as a core than if it was roached.

Plus they're idiots, if they actually took the main or connecting rod caps off and didn't micrometer them to determine how much wear was present. That would have taken like 5 extra minutes!
They did not mention anything about measurements or percentage of wear. We were just shown the bearings and told they showed severe oil starvation damage requiring a new motor. Like I said, they looked more like the one in the far right, not the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
A core is a core, to an extent and I'd expect much closer to 500 than 5000.
That makes sense, I was initially a little skeptical that the block would cost 1/2 the price of the engine but also figured, I`m not a mechanic so I went to dealer 2 for another opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
If there's no knock and the bearings weren't scorched (like the one on the left in that pic) and it's not burning oil, I'd be VERY tempted to just run it. If the engine was getting oil when it starts and then literally went into limp mode a few seconds later and then had oil again when the angle changed and boat settled back to level, you have a good chance of little to no damage.
No, the engine would ONLY loose pressure and go into limp mode when the bow would rise. It would idle all day and hold oil pressure at the dock....I could cruise around the lake all day just off idle or slightly more and it would hold pressure. The only time I would loose pressure and hit limp mode with the alarm was if the bow rose nearly all the way up. At that point the alarm would continue to sound each time it was started until it was reset in the PCM but the oil pressure would return once the boat was flat again.

I know it’s kinda hard to tell, and I am not sure it helps, but I’ve attached a 13 second video at the bottom of the post of us surfing with a friend’s kid. This was after the oil pickup tube was re-installed. You can hear the engine....honestly, this is how it sounds at 13 mph running, if I remember correctly, about 2000ish RPM.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0chitdk5r...%2058.mov?dl=0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
You put 26 hard hours on it after the oil pump fix, correct? That's somewhat comparable to 2500 miles on a car. Realize I'm speculating without seeing the engine and taking a mic to the bearings, but based on what you've said, it doesn't seem so bad.
They never fixed the oil pump, they changed the oil sending unit, then said it may have been the wrong oil in the boat so they changed it. As for the hours, yes, we put 26 hours on it over 2 weeks learning to surf.

Thanks again for spending all this time with me and answering my questions, I really appreciate it and you have made me feel quite a bit better in the fact that, while it might require some work here and there, my boat may not be hooped after all....
Attached Files
File Type: mov CCEAE49C-50BE-4797-9CCA-0798F232858E.MOV (7.04 MB, 43 views)

Last edited by Gsxrgrizz; 12-05-2017 at 08:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:43 AM
Shaun R's Avatar
Shaun R Shaun R is offline
MC Devotee
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Boat: 2011 X25
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,617
That motor could be rebuild on a budget as long as none of the bearings have spun, you would hear it if that happened. Have the motor rebuilt before one of the bearings fails and it turns an almost perfectly good motor into scrap metal.

I would also be concerned about valve train issues due to the oil starvation problem as well. Cam bearings or lobes could be showing excessive wear as well and your valve springs were probably not happy about the lack of oil and were way to hot. A basic rebuild around here runs around 1K, not including labor to pull the motor.

You have a known issue. Either roll the dice and hope for the best knowing it will cost a lot more if something goes wrong, or fix it right for less over the winter and enjoy your summer without the stress of knowing your motor could go at any minute. I would do the rebuild now because no one likes a broken boat with the sun is out.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-05-2017, 08:48 AM
curver900 curver900 is offline
MC Devotee
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Boat: Mastercraft, prostar 2001 205v
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,313
I agree with the others.. get an oil analysis...

I would look down the piston and see if there is any scoring in there to speak of... if limited scoring like the pic above change oil and test it once a year for excessive metal content and drive it till it stops.. which may be a very long time...

if the bearing on the right is the one yours looked like then I am not sure I would get a reman for that.. I would run it, you will hear it go before it goes... heck you got 26 hours with no trouble... you probably will get 300 hours without any trouble...it may have lost 400 hours of use out of 2000... ;o)

I am curious as to why a whole new block? isn't it cheaper and easier to just yank the motor and rebuild it and you can have any mechanic work on it, it is a simple GM 350 parts are cheap too... not like a cracked block...

+1 on the rebuild but if funds are limited then well ... worst case is a whole new motor...down the line
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-05-2017, 11:41 AM
Gsxrgrizz Gsxrgrizz is offline
TT Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Boat: 2007 Mastercraft X-15
Location: Southwest...Canada
Posts: 103
While I am not rich my any means, money is also not tight however, at the same time, I want to make sure it is done correctly regardless of what the means. At this point, a new motor is all but out of the picture without a substantial reason as to why. Dealer 2 is picking it up this morning to do the oil analysis and give a second opinion which seems to have aggravated dealer 1 significantly...I’ve received two calls from customer service and one from the shop foreman asking why dealer 2 is involved.

Anyway, back on topic.....does the video with the engine sound help? If I was going to go with a rebuild, what would have to be replaced???
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-05-2017, 12:53 PM
curver900 curver900 is offline
MC Devotee
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Boat: Mastercraft, prostar 2001 205v
Location: midwest
Posts: 2,313
if you can rebuild the one you have it will be significantly easier... because you just take off all the marine parts rebuild it internally and then put it back in and put on all the parts.. I don't know why you would go any other way.. I know of folks who got "remanufactured" motors from reliable sources and they were total junk .. they ended up doing it themselves and are trying to get the money back from the "rebuilder"...

don't worry about pissing anyone off... if they are pissed off they may not be working in your best interest... you can do the oil analysis yourself with blackstone...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:40 PM.