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  #21  
Old 04-12-2013, 03:21 AM
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Kyle Kyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankSchwab View Post
I was under the impression that we DID get the 4-bolt main blocks off the Truck line rather than the 2-bolt mains off the Car line. Maybe I'm just full of ... misinformation.
The op has a Ford 351w not a Chevy. A 351w has 2 bolt mains unless it has been drilled by a machine shop or the engine is aftermarket.

351c came with 4 bolt mains.


You may be full of miss information. Someone selling you something will say anything to get you to buy it. Then if you find out later it is not what you thought it was.....oh well sorry is their attitude, or better yet the back peddle no I didn't say that.
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  #22  
Old 04-12-2013, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossterman View Post
Jim,
You make a good point on the hardened seats because these motors do use one of the best smallblock chevy cylinder heads coming out of chevy- the vortech heads flow better then some of the early bowtie aftermarket parts that GM performance sold in the day.

But, the hardened seat heads weren't made for marine use, they were taken from the automotive line and many vortech 350 truck engines have had them before they were used in boat engines.
There isn't a single old school chevy head(camel humps small or large, crowns too, hell or any other for that matter) that flows near what vortec heads flow. Even the crappy truck heads flow better they just get a bad rap because of weak valve springs.

The only heads that ever came close are the 492s. But aren't we talking Fords here?

As stated, hardened valve seats are not a marine specific design.

Gear heads butting heads always makes for a great thread!

btw: Unless you are making 600+ hp the difference between a 4 bolt block and 2 bolt block is $$ and ego.
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  #23  
Old 04-12-2013, 07:38 AM
freehugs freehugs is offline
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
There is no difference between a marine and auto rngine except brass freeze plugs.

I bought a short block for $1000 cash with brass plugs. Then added gt40p heads.

The long blocks come with heads. Make sure that the heads are not a total pos.


Here is an idea. Buy a short block 351 $1,200 probably, then bada$$ heads for $500 then a cam for $250 and that includes lifters and push rods. Get a marine gasket kit for $100.

$2000-2100 and you have a real nice engine. Top it off with a Edlebrock performer intake $250 and you will have 330hp. I have cam spec card and you can use it to order a cam from comp cams. 2 week turn around.


A member at our club has a jasper long block in his '93 190 1:1 and it is very much lacking power. It has no balls.

You need the good heads.....period drastic difference.

$1500 vs 2000 and kicking yourself forever knowing that this was your opportunity to have lots of power is not worth the savings.

The heads on the long block reman engines suck.

You also mention might be in the market. Take your engine out and have it freshened for $900. If you have gt40 or gt40p heads the valve job and refresh is $200 or so.

$1,500 keeping your existing engine is way better than the jasper setup.

Just ask phntmski about his engine. He loves it. I built it. If you don't build it yourself you are still better off letting the machine shop build it.
You mentioned that the heads suck- wouldn't that be due to them not necessarily being the same as the existing ones and different versions fitting on many blocks? This is a good argument for freshening up an existing engine (as long as the place guarantees the same engine is returned to the customer and the old one wasn't treated like a farm animal), but I don't know if using a Jasper or some other reman is always a bad thing for most people when they won't be doing the swap. It's fast, easy to swap the accessories and comes with a warranty- I don't know of many local shops that will offer the same when they go through an old engine. The cost you show is what you can pay but you have connections that are unavailable to many others. You can't compare the cost for you and what someone will pay to have someone else do this for them- it's like wholesale vs retail. As in any type of work, the ones who can do a lot of the work and make parts choices can save a lot of money. Another problem for someone doing this for the first time is finding a good shop- they all say they're good, but we all know they're not. Finding out the hard way that a shop isn't doing good work is a good way for someone to come to the conclusion that they'll never touch a car or boat again.

After working on boats in this state- seeing what some of the other dealers were doing and hearing what boat owners said about their experiences with some of the other dealers at the time (late-'90s into the early 2000s), I would have a hard time trusting them to work on my boat. I have enough trouble trusting anyone to work on my vehicles as it is.

FWIW, all of the Jasper engines I installed worked very well- I don't know why the one in the club member's boat sucks. Might have something to do with what was spec'd (info given by whoever was doing the work, whoever took the info, who filled the order, what was picked, etc) or it may have to do with what was being done at the time. Could it be a fuel system problem?
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  #25  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
I guess my years of ASE certifications and knowing about tolerances don't mean anything.

We have one guy from a "Stealership" who sells "marine" engines. He makes a living selling marine parts and boats. Of course he would love to make a sale. Although he wants to beat down the accessories being marine vs automotive and that's not in the debate. Last time I checked we are disgusting engine internals (inside) and long/short blocks (both do not include accessories).

We also have another guy who is just trying to bust my balls saying marine engines have higher tolerances and automotive engines are slapped together loosely. Marine must be the only way to have tight tolerances.


Someone please show me

"Marine" specific

Block (besides brass plugs)
Rods
Rings
Pistons
Bearings cam and crank
Main caps
Push rods
Lifters
Cam
Oil pump
Timing chain
Timing gears
Head bolts
Main bolts
Intake bolts


I'll STFU when someone can show me marine specific parts. Until then people can keep fooling themselves with marketing.


I said the internals are the same and they are. These engines are cheap low HP engines built exactly like automobiles. Wanna talk about tolerances then build a BBC 572ci 980hp blown engine that has $30,000 in it. Then we can talk about the low rpm and low HP that are in these boats and compare the super bada$$ high quality race engine indmar made for this old boat.


Oh and for you guys doubting me. Get the ford part nubbers off of the head gasket and cross reference it to a felpro gasket part and notice that the non molested Ford indmar was an automotive gasket. Head gaskets were non marinized and were automotive but it was a high tolerance "marine" engine pushing a whopping 285hp. I have also been in several other indmar 351w non molested and they had the same automotive head gaskets. When I rebuilt mine I went back with a nice head gasket kit.
These come off of the same assembly lines as the ones that go into the cars. They may change some parts (the intake manifold/injectors and occasionally the starter or alternator) but the rest is stock. There's really not much reason to change the internals- it's not a race motor and it doesn't need to withstand the stresses of having big tires hooking up to the track through a manual transmission. I think they sometimes spec a gasket set that works with water as the coolant rather than some kind of glycol, but the head gaskets I saw when I tore down engines looked pretty much like the replacements.
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  #26  
Old 04-12-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by JimN View Post
(as long as the place guarantees the same engine is returned to the customer and the old one wasn't treated like a farm animal)

Down here in Texas, folks are very respectful of farm animals - even down there inTyler, they kiss em on both cheeks before and after.... Can't ask for much more than that
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  #27  
Old 04-12-2013, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TxsRiverRat View Post
Down here in Texas, folks are very respectful of farm animals - even down there inTyler, they kiss em on both cheeks before and after.... Can't ask for much more than that



Txs.... ahh..what we learn about you...

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  #28  
Old 04-12-2013, 10:36 AM
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Kyle Kyle is offline
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JimN

You hit the nail right on the head. Thank you.


Let me elaborate. The jasper engine is put together very well and it has been reliable. It just doesn't have the power. The club member that I'm talking about had a '93 190 1:1 285hp. He cracked his block during a winter one year, winter skier and rolled the dice. He gambled and lost. Anyway he had a jasper installed. It was like the engine did not have anything HO on it. Gt40 heads were gone I'm sure a different cam but when you throw that kind of cash then you should expect factory kind of power. Not the power of running a 3 legged race with a partner that has a broken leg.


Second off. I have connections yes but my cost is very close to retail. Where I save the most is doing the work myself vs paying someone. I'm very aware of the bad wrap that mechanics get of being halfa$$ cheaters and liars. I would be in the same boat if I moved across the country, but that is where you stop by several shops (non machine shop) and ask who they recommend for the best work. Doing so will lead you pretty straight. The guy referring you pays the machine shop and his dollar means something to him, so I'm sure the referral would be pretty good.


Thank you also explaining the automotive Ford assembly line process to these guys. Folks wanna just argue and beat a dead horse. When someone who has been around as long as you have and has earned the boat genious title, people tend to agree and move on.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
"Heavy" beer is for wine drinkers that are too embarrassed to drink wine in front of their buddies. "Light" beer is a drinkin' man's beer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatsmrmastercraft View Post
If you want bling like the big dawgs, ya gotta lift your leg a little higher.....

Last edited by Kyle; 04-12-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-12-2013, 10:38 AM
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Kyle Kyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg205 View Post



Txs.... ahh..what we learn about you...

Well no one ever knows what rat will say. He lives in his own special world.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrall View Post
"Heavy" beer is for wine drinkers that are too embarrassed to drink wine in front of their buddies. "Light" beer is a drinkin' man's beer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by thatsmrmastercraft View Post
If you want bling like the big dawgs, ya gotta lift your leg a little higher.....
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  #30  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:25 AM
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TxsRiverRat TxsRiverRat is offline
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It's states like arkansas, west virginia and parts of mississippi that they're mistreated...

Just sayin... lmao
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