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  #11  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:48 AM
Fab Fab is offline
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One question for you holman, In France this is illegal to transport LPG tanks to fill them in a car fuel station, altough there is no LPG stations on water of course... I never had troubles with cops but id. Every boater was running LPG the authorities would come in the problem...how is the law in NL?
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  #12  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:52 AM
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BlueRidge BlueRidge is offline
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Running a large V-8 boat engine on LPG (propane) is entirely possible but not economical in my opinion. In addition to the cost of converting the engine to run on propane, you have the hassle of trying to find the fuel; not many marinas have propane filling stations located at the dock.

Propane and butane are extracted from the oil and gas produced from wells, nearly all of it extracted from the gas phase. With the increase in North America gas production due to fracing there is more propane available and the price of propane has dropped considerably since it peaked in 2008. When comparing the cost per gallon for the fuel you have to consider that propane has nearly 25% less energy per gallon than that of pure gasoline, so your consumption in GPH will go up. The ethanol / gasoline mix that most of us have to use has about 3% less energy density than pure gasoline.

Propane is stored in pressurised containers to keep it liquefied. It must be a vapor to burn in your engine. It is easy to vaporize propane when it is hot outside and the flowrate of propane is small. But when it gets cold or the flowrate gets too high, you will also need a vaporizer to generate enough propane vapor to run your engine. A heat exchanger using engine cooling water would probably be sufficient.

Nothing beats gasoline as a fuel for our size boats at the moment. Diesel is an acceptable alternative but not common. If you do make the LPG conversion let us all know how it works out for you.
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  #13  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:57 AM
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we can transport 330ltr in original transportable LPG tanks,...but the tanks has to be secured to the vehicle.
Question for Fab,...how do the indoor forklift trucks refuel their tanks?...or are they all diesel,..even if used idoors?
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  #14  
Old 02-26-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
Running a large V-8 boat engine on LPG (propane) is entirely possible but not economical in my opinion. In addition to the cost of converting the engine to run on propane, you have the hassle of trying to find the fuel; not many marinas have propane filling stations located at the dock.

Propane and butane are extracted from the oil and gas produced from wells, nearly all of it extracted from the gas phase. With the increase in North America gas production due to fracing there is more propane available and the price of propane has dropped considerably since it peaked in 2008. When comparing the cost per gallon for the fuel you have to consider that propane has nearly 25% less energy per gallon than that of pure gasoline, so your consumption in GPH will go up. The ethanol / gasoline mix that most of us have to use has about 3% less energy density than pure gasoline.

Propane is stored in pressurised containers to keep it liquefied. It must be a vapor to burn in your engine. It is easy to vaporize propane when it is hot outside and the flowrate of propane is small. But when it gets cold or the flowrate gets too high, you will also need a vaporizer to generate enough propane vapor to run your engine. A heat exchanger using engine cooling water would probably be sufficient.

Nothing beats gasoline as a fuel for our size boats at the moment. Diesel is an acceptable alternative but not common. If you do make the LPG conversion let us all know how it works out for you.
It takes about 120 - 150 hours on my LY6 to reach my break even point....after the break even point we save 1 euro pro Ltr of fuel,...my slammed LY6 uses about 30ltr so that would be a saving of 30 euro an hour,....or 40$ an hour.
have a few sets with some buddy,s...then do the math.
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  #15  
Old 02-26-2012, 12:38 PM
Fab Fab is offline
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Well i always saw indoor forklift using "domestic" gaz tanks, like the ones you can use for your kitchen for cooking for exemple ! When the tank is empty you just give it back to the station and take a new one, you don't have the same stuff in NL...LPG tanks for cars have to secured in the vehicle as yours...As it's illegal to carry more than 20L of fuel in jerrycan in your car, it's illegal to carry LPG tanks from boat to station...Stupid thing because we have no solution but to do it...Most of lakes/rivers in France don't have fuel station on water...

And i agree with you holman with the cost balance...The difference between gas and LPG is so huge here in Europe, in only one summer the conversion advantageous...

In france :
Gas : 1.50€/L
LPG : 0.8€/L

How much in NL ?
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  #16  
Old 02-26-2012, 01:49 PM
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LPG for my tank at home is about $1.75/gal and gasoline will likely hit $4 / gal this week. LPG will drop when heating season is over, too.

What is the cost to convert a 5.7 L TBI engine?

Trying to figure out break even point?

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  #17  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:08 PM
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Your engine will do with a impco model e vaporizer and a 425 mixer and those are cheap in the usa
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:36 PM
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tommy panfish tommy panfish is offline
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Need a little more info

This sounds very interesting. Can you describe how these parts are incorporated and how the tanks get mounted.
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  #19  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:50 PM
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Shooter McKevin Shooter McKevin is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Table Rocker View Post
I am far from an expert, but LPG is Liquefied Petroleum Gas (aka Propane) and is created from crude oil and hence goes up and down with the price of crude much like gasoline.

CNG is Compressed Natural Gas and is simply natural gas (not made from crude oil) under extreme pressure. CNG is becoming a popular fuel for vehicles in the U.S. due to it's lower price. The drawback of CNG is the size of the tanks required to give your vehicle enough range. CNG Honda Civics are popular in areas that have plenty of CNG stations (My boss and my brother both drive them - in Oklahoma). The range of the CNG Civic is about 240 miles and when you run out, you call a tow truck. You don't walk down the road with a fuel tank in your hand. The trunk of the car is full of tanks and you have about enough room for a set of golf clubs and that is it, but you are paying around $1 to get the same amount of energy as a $3.50 gallon of gasoline.

LNG is Liquefied Natural Gas. I know even less about LNG, but I believe it is natural gas that has been super-chilled until it reaches a liquid state. This process is used to condense natural gas enough to send overseas on ships. It is an expensive process to cool the gas this much and keep it this cool. The expensive transformation to liquid and its storage makes the LNG more expensive than CNG. A google search shows that there are less than 20 LNG stations in the U.S. Again, no walking to the station with a can.

That's about all I know, which isn't much. I would love to switch to a CNG car, but there aren't any stations in my area yet. When we get them, I will switch. My boat will remain on gasoline since there is no hope of a CNG marina within a half mile of my dock.
I haven't heard of CNG cars before. Your post had me wondering if you could add an automotive filling attachment at home. That would be awfully convenient, and probably pretty cheap. I pay $2.82/GJ to heat my house with natural gas (all houses here are plumbed with natural gas lines, I know this is not true everywhere, especially where it is warm). I'll see if I can figure out a cost comparison.

Sorry about the Jack Johnny Lots of good info in the link Fab posted.

Last edited by Shooter McKevin; 02-29-2012 at 02:04 PM.
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  #20  
Old 02-28-2012, 06:20 PM
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Shooter McKevin Shooter McKevin is online now
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Edit: accidentally did the electricity calculation. Since I can't delete this post I corrected it, but now it seems wrong. Maybe because of the efficiency of an electric motor over internal combustion? Charging an electric car (or boat) is not very cheap at all if this is anywhere close to accurate.

Obtained from the internet...

1kWh of electricity = 3.6 megajoules
1 gallon of gasoline = 130 megajoules

So assuming the energy is extracted at equal efficiency (I have no idea if it is) equal energy of electricity (at $0.08/kWh) to 1 gallon of gasoline would cost $2.89
Or compared to 1 litre of gasoline $0.76 (we pay roughly $1.00 - $1.20/litre here)

Last edited by Shooter McKevin; 02-29-2012 at 02:16 PM.
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