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  #21  
Old 07-20-2008, 11:01 PM
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JimN JimN is offline
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It's not hard to tell if a pump's bearings are going bad and it only takes a few minutes. The pump needs to come off so the flange can be turned in the person's hand. If there's any grinding or vibration, it's going. If it's smooth, it's not. Might have a bad seal, but the bearings aren't necessarily going bad.

Discuss this calmly with the dealer/service department. I think it should be part of a marine survey, but not all dealers and service departments do these the same way. You'll need to look at the contract and see what recourse you have in this kind of situation. If the boat was sold "as is", your position will be determined by where you live. Do some due diligence to arm yourself for any discussions with the shop and dealer. If you don't know your rights and responsibilities as a consumer, at least find out what the dealer's rights and responsibilities are.

With cars and land vehicles, the power train has to be in good working order. The cooling system, being part of the engine, is absolutely part of the power train.
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  #22  
Old 07-21-2008, 12:27 AM
gerberpollack gerberpollack is offline
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Clarification of Selling Party

The selling party was not the dealer, but an individual. I retained a dealer / marina to perforrm the Used Boat Inspection to make sure the boat was in good condition. The dealer has told me the inspection comes with no guarantees or warranties. This seems rather silly since I paid the dealer $350 to perform the inspection.

The impeller issue was noted on the inspection but nothing was said about not running the boat until the part was replaced. This seems rather strange given the potential long term damage that can occur from an overheated engine. The temperature gauge was pegged to the top when I finally noticed the problem.

The inspector also missed a malfunctioning alternator when he performed his inspection. The alternator produced adequate amps when in neutral, but amps decreased when the transmission was shifted to forward or reverse. Thankfully the problem was solved by cleaning the leads from the alternator to the engine.

Buying a boat comes with risks to the buyer. I spent money on the UBI to reduce these risks. The process has turned into somewhat of a circus with all of these issues.

Thanks for your help.

Andy
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  #23  
Old 07-21-2008, 12:38 AM
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JimN JimN is offline
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I didn't know the shop was a third party but at this point, I would be asking him to justify his existence. If I were to pay $350 for an inspection, I want information that's detailed and accurate, so I can make some informed decisions. IMO, he didn't do this for you, regarding the alternator (could have been more expensive than it was) and if he didn't make the imminent demise of the raw water pump well known, it's kind of like throwing a dry sponge at a window, to let someone know they left their wallet behind.

He makes no guarantees or warranties but you may still have some recourse. I would contact the Consumer Affairs people about this. Was this guy recommended by the seller? That may change things.
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  #24  
Old 07-21-2008, 08:25 AM
bigmac bigmac is offline
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The raw water pump is a KEY component of the boat's functionality. To have missed its imminent demise would be egregious in a pre-sale inspection IMHO, but only IF it was making that noise when they inspected it (again, the timing would certainly be coincidental if it looked and sounded normal at that time). If I were buying a used boat, I would want a close look at the raw water pump to look for leaking (which usually indicates a bad seal). Certainly, if I heard a grinding sound from ANYWHERE in the engine compartment, I'd consider that a real problem and would want it tracked down.

I guess a key question is why they told you that the impeller needed replacing. Did they say that because they just figured it was time, as part of routine maintenance ("change the oil, change the filter, change the impeller")? Or did they note that the boat was overheating, or (worse) did they hear a metal-on-metal grinding coming from the pump and figure (erroneously) that it was just the impeller? That's a bad assumption and suggests that, at the least, they are unfamiliar with inboard boats. If it was just silently overheating, a bad impeller would be a reasonable assumption, although for $350, it seems MORE reasonable that they would take the 10 minutes and pop the pump cover to actually look.

FWIW, a total impeller failure is absolutely silent and is suspected by the boat overheating, and actually diagnosed by removing it and directly observing it's loss of vanes.
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  #25  
Old 07-21-2008, 08:35 AM
TMCNo1 TMCNo1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac View Post

FWIW, a total impeller failure is absolutely silent and is suspected by the boat overheating, and actually diagnosed by removing it and directly observing it's loss of vanes.
That is one of the most accurate and truthful statements about a impeller in relation to overheating I have ever read! Absolutely great bigmac!

That statement should be printed in every owners manual and an owner should read it out loud before signing the purchase papers!
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Last edited by TMCNo1; 07-21-2008 at 08:38 AM.
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  #26  
Old 07-21-2008, 07:07 PM
gerberpollack gerberpollack is offline
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So, I stopped by the marina this afternoon to pick up another copy of the UBI. The UBI did say the water pump was in poor condition and the sea pump leaked. The manager of the service department actually saw it leaking (drip / drip) when he looked at the alternator last week.

The manager told me he's never seen a water pump sheer off the shaft. He told me the leaking usually indicates a bad seal caused by the O ring. Basically, he thought they provided enough information to me. There was nothing mentioned regarding imminent failure of the need to immediately replace the part.

Any thoughts?

Andy
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  #27  
Old 07-21-2008, 08:41 PM
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JimN JimN is offline
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"The UBI did say the water pump was in poor condition and the sea pump leaked."

Does this mean that the water circulation pump (the one mounted on the front of the block) is going, too? Some people call the raw water pump that, some call it the fresh water pump and some call it the sea water pump. You might want to get a clarification from him.

It's rare but I have heard about a few pump shafts coming apart. It all has to do with the history of the boat and sometimes, it's just a matter of what kind of water it was used in.
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  #28  
Old 07-21-2008, 11:05 PM
gerberpollack gerberpollack is offline
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Pictures

I pulled the pump from the boat. I've posted the photos for your review. http://www.flickr.com/photos/3900645...7606303890014/

Observations:

1. I'm not sure how the pump attached to the engine - no brackets
2. The impeller was in good condition with all vanes okay
3. The cover of the impeller housing showed signs of inconsistent wear
4. There was metal debris from the rings and the bearings were off the pump
5. I don't think the mechanic pulled the cover due to two reasons: 1) he would have seen the wear on the cover and 2) the crap in the storage bins was not moved. Given the location of the pump there's no way he could have accessed it without disturbing my junk.

The plot continues to thicken as the photos make it seem like the problem was diagnosable.

Andy
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  #29  
Old 07-21-2008, 11:35 PM
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JimN JimN is offline
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I'll address your points, in order.

1) You should have an L shaped bracket with a short piece of rubber that slips over the smaller diameter protrusion, at a right angle to where the hoses attach. That keeps the pump stationary when the crank is turning. It's a factory installed item and if it's missing, contact the dealer and precious customer to find out why it's missing, who removed it and why they left it out. If you don't get one from them, buy a new one- it's needed.

2) That impeller actually doesn't look very good. The fact that all of the vanes are there doesn't really mean that much. If you look at them from the edge, you'll see that there's a kind of bulge where they pass over the slots in the pump body and a fresh impeller will never have them. Also, if you look at all of the vanes, they're angled and that means it has been there for quite a while. If you have a new impeller, or have handled one, you'll see and feel a big difference. If you press on the vanes to lay them flat, it will take very little effort and it takes quite a bit more to do that with a new impeller, as it should. Since the water will be pressurized when the pump is turning, weak vanes will allow water to bypass the vanes and you'll never have good pressure and flow rate.

3) The inside of the pump cover looks odd and the ones I have seen were clean brass with rotary marks from the impeller, not black and funky. When you removed the cover, did it have a white, thin gasket? That should never be omitted. If/when you get a new impeller, get the kit that comes with the gasket and buy a spare gasket. For that matter, I recommend having a new impeller in the pump and a spare in the boat. For the low cost, it can save your vacations and potentially, the motor.

4) Pretty self-explanatory- it failed and if the raw water pump bracket was missing, it contributed to the failure.

5) If the stuff in the bins wasn't moved, he couldn't have inspected the raw water pump. The only way he could have gotten in there is by either removing the side panels and crawling back there or by pulling the pin that attaches the sun deck to the ram and laying it back, preferably using a rope to keep it from flopping back all the way. Ask him specifically if he opened the sun deck more than it does by using the ram. If he says he didn't and is a big guy, there's no way he would fit without removing the stuff and the side panels. Look at the pivots for the sun deck, to see if it has stress cracks in the gelcoat.

If they admit that they didn't actually remove the cover, they didn't earn that $350. The worst part is that overheating that motor is really bad for the heads and you may need new exhaust hoses. Squeeze them along their length to see if they're soft and kind of mushy. If they're soft, they have been damaged by the heat from the exhaut that blew through there with no cooling water.


Curiouser and curiouser, eh?
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  #30  
Old 07-22-2008, 12:02 AM
gerberpollack gerberpollack is offline
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So, where is the round plate with the 3 holes? This was featured in the photo of the new water pump. I didn't see it on the engine or floor below the engine. Is this a mandatory part or does the rubber L brack take its place?
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