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  #21  
Old 09-27-2018, 08:49 PM
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93Prostar190 93Prostar190 is offline
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If a car under certain conditions is more prone to understeer which may result in you driving into a ditch, at what point does the driver Ď s responsibility end and the car makers begin?

To me, the 197 has never done anything to me or around me that was not expected as a boat running along water.

Water over the bow? Possible.

Letting go of the wheel at speed and a tuned rudder pulling , resulting in a hard turn, certain as well.

I think Mastercraft and any other manufacturer is obligated to make a boat that performs in a manner that the owner is expecting but that sometimes may push a performance envelope and the operator should ensure an operating environment (load, speed, weather, and more) to keep crew and craft safe.

I am curious if the 197 has exhibited any tendencies that would be un safe , but I would also argue that a 1 person Hobie Cat could be accused of the same thing ... heck every Stand Up Paddleboard I have ridden has tried to kill me.




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  #22  
Old 09-27-2018, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenderfoot View Post
Did Mastercraft ever put out a warning or hit with legal action on the issue where if you cut the throttle to neutral at speed the nose on a 197 takes a dive? I am the original owner of a 2005 197 and never received anything. I had an incident were I cut to neutral at 38mph when it appeared a barefooter I was pulling was going to hit a semi submerged log that we did not see until the boat was next to it. My bow went under and threw out a passenger. Water up to the gunnel. Nobody was hurt, but trashed my bimini, amp, camera other misc items. Not to mention quite the scare for all.

After talking about it others have said they have seen videos and heard stories that this happens to others.
I've never heard of them putting out any warning about the 197 or any other model. With all due respect, it seems that your driving situation caused this incident. Not sure if anyone linked it, but is is similar to the submarine power turn video that has been posted here for years. I'm sure all the warnings in the original owner's manual caution the driver to always be aware of their situation and ensure the safety of everyone on board, and behind the boat.
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  #23  
Old 09-27-2018, 09:50 PM
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And never chopped to neutral, always to at least idle, both from the standpoint of not letting the bow dip and to not abuse the tranny going from a high speed engaged in drive to disengaging to neutral.
It seems to me that if one suddenly drops from footing speed back to idle (but leaving the tranny in gear) the deceleration will be more abrupt than than dropping straight back into neutral.

I don't know much about boat transmissions, but I have to believe that they are engineered so that the stress of suddenly dropping from high speed down to idle or back to neutral is not going to harm them in any way.
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  #24  
Old 09-28-2018, 12:28 AM
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197 nose dive at speed

Sounds like you may have gone past neutral to reverse without even realizing it. That can bury the nose. I barely buried my x2/205v one night traveling around 25 and boat was sitting in middle of lake, instinctly put it into reverse without thinking. Ended up stopping very quickly way before the other boat. But that did put a little water in now. I was worried that I screwed up the trans but no issue.
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  #25  
Old 09-28-2018, 01:59 AM
Tsumi Tsumi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Rita View Post
It seems to me that if one suddenly drops from footing speed back to idle (but leaving the tranny in gear) the deceleration will be more abrupt than than dropping straight back into neutral.

I don't know much about boat transmissions, but I have to believe that they are engineered so that the stress of suddenly dropping from high speed down to idle or back to neutral is not going to harm them in any way.
In my experience, neutral disconnects the transmission from the engine and the prop is allowed to rotate freely, which shouldn't in any way harm the transmission. The engine might slow down the prop if just pulling back to idle while in gear, but it shouldn't stop it that quickly (think letting go of the gas in a manual car).

I'm inclined to think that this was a accidental pop into reverse situation. The fact that it was in neutral afterwards could be explained by the sudden deceleration making the driver bump the throttle forward into neutral.
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  #26  
Old 09-28-2018, 02:33 AM
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Yeah mate Iím inclined to think something out of the ordinary. The 197 was designed as a tournament ski boat. It pulled tournaments for over 10 years. After every pass through the course you swing out wide as the driver pulls left and straightens up and dumps from full throttle to neutral. We do it when we drop skiers every time and never had it occur. But donít worry. All it takes is one of my sisters who weigh around 60kgs to be in the front and the water goes extremely close to the rub rail at the tip of the bow. Any more weight and you would have to be careful.


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  #27  
Old 09-28-2018, 03:48 AM
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The prop becomes DRAG, even if it spins freely, forward or reverse, when taken out of gear.

Weight in the front (or anywhere in the boat), more displacement and less freeboard, more area of waterplane that makes contact with added weight, which increases DRAFT, ie something will drag more, the LCG of the vessel will shift upon deceleration(as will the LCB and LCF) and whola: weight, drag, displacement, water.
LCG - longitudinal center of gravity
LCB - longitudinal center of buoyancy
LCF - longitudinal center of floatation
Stability 101, CG' (shift)=Weight x Dist/displ

when you moved the people to the front, the boat possibly trimmed to a new List forward (List = fore or aft). Heel is port to stbd.
GM = W x D/displ List TAN (GM calculated distance from the center of gravity to the Metacenter; highest point that G may rise and still have positive or neutral stability. G goes above M, risk of capsizing exist, or a unrecoverable heel or list.
List = W X D/displ GM TAN

The people in the front changed the stability of your vessel and the handling characteristics of your vessel. Simple stability but then I've been doing it for 30+ years. Not making light of anything and hope everyone is okay but your shifting CG caused the boat to dip when decelerating and thus putting more of the boat(area of waterplane) in the water at the force of speed, became more drag.

Last edited by bret; 09-28-2018 at 05:43 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-28-2018, 08:15 AM
88 PS190 88 PS190 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post
In my experience, neutral disconnects the transmission from the engine and the prop is allowed to rotate freely, which shouldn't in any way harm the transmission. The engine might slow down the prop if just pulling back to idle while in gear, but it shouldn't stop it that quickly (think letting go of the gas in a manual car)tr.
Gotta remember it isnt a gear transmission it is hydraulic. Input side puts hydraulic pressure on the plates which drops after the throttle gets to neutral as the valve switches from input to neutral circuit. Reverse pushes hydraulic into different clutch pack.
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  #29  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:37 AM
88 PS190 88 PS190 is online now
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Great photo of a 205 on facebook with a few people up front at idle. Kind of the same general idea.

If you're skiing off the pylon you have 100% of the crew weight in front of the halfway point of the boat. Bow should only really be occupied when you have a roughly equal distribution of weight in the hull people up front, people in the back. Balancing of crew/equipment/gear is just basic marine principles of operation and can make any boat unsafe.
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  #30  
Old 09-28-2018, 01:41 PM
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mustangtexas mustangtexas is offline
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One thought is if the shaft is in a bind and will not spin freely when in neutral then the stationary prop could cause the bow to dip more than normal. My 197 will glide to almost a stop before the bow dips close to the water line from any speed when pulled back to idle.
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