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  #21  
Old 09-02-2013, 09:45 AM
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JimN JimN is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark rsa2au View Post
Thanks JimN and Rossterman, sorry about the rant but I am so frustrated at the amount of time and money I am throwing at this boat. I do appreciate your replys!!

While the motor is a generic block, it is the Mastercraft specification / indmar electronics that seem to be causing the issues. I know these motors should be reliable which is why I bought one.

The Temp sender unit was replaced with a generic unit that was close to origional but not exact, so I replaced with an Indmar version. Boat does same with either Temp sender unit.

Melbourne does not get below freezing so I am not sure if the diaphram at fault. Started boat this morning on the verge and Oil guage is working again......? Might have to order a new MDC and guage pack.

Hose split at shower connection, plastic connection failed. Trans oil cooler checked and cleaned before it was put into the water.

We had an over fueling issue and the PO decided to take 3 turnes out of the fuel pressure regulater to try to reduce the overfueling. Now back to Standard

Checked code this morning = 44: (seen this one before and replaced MAF sensor)
Did not know if this motor has an O2 sensor.. Maf Sensor is new. Fuel Injectors are new, Fuel Pressure is 30psi across the range (approx at 4500rpm as it was hard to hold on at WOT and the motor popping and stuttering). Have run several tanks of fresh fuel, drained and cleaned fuel tank and replaced fuel filters, and cleaned fuel pump wire mesh. Cant understand Lean condition with black smoke out the back that smells like fuel.
Maybe the fuel pump is failing and is intermittant causing lean conditions then over fueling?
CODE 44
Trouble Code 44 indicates that the O2 sensor is showing a persistently high exhaust oxygen content (lean), despite the efforts of the ECM to increase injector on-time (thus increasing fuel delivered). Integrator and BLM numbers may indicate > 128 by a substantial margin.
The conditions for setting this code are:
no Code 33 or Code 34 (MAF Error) present, and
the O2 sensor voltage remains below 250 mVolts, and
the ECM is in Closed Loop control, and
the above conditions exist for more than 50 seconds.
Typical causes for this code include:
1) O2 sensor defective or lead shorted
2) Lean injectors (dirty or blocked)
3) Water in fuel
4) Exhaust leaks upstream of O2 sensor
5) Fuel pressure or volume too low
6) MAF sensor reading lower airflow than is actually present


Appreciate any ideas? Just not the one that suggests I take it into the MC Stealership....
Close doesn't work when electronic systems are concerned- the ECM is programmed to operate within specific ranges and if a sensor is outside of this range, you won't get what you're looking for. Being in Australia, you won't find OEM-spec parts as easily as we do, but I would think a Holden dealer could help you, since they're affiliated with GM.

I had forgotten that the fuel pressure regulator was altered- replace it. These aren't adjustable without the correct info or the rig for setting one up- you don't have these. It's vacuum-regulated to much tighter specs, not like the ones that can be added to a carbureted engine, where its not nearly as critical or accurate. You wrote that the PO adjusted the regulator by three turns and you turned it back- you may have put it back WRT physical position of the screw, but that doesn't mean it's regulating the fuel to spec.

You replaced the wrong part when you saw a code 44- download the codes and print them, so you don't continue to replace the wrong parts. If you had a manual, you could see the theory behind some of what's happening when the engine is running, the role of the senders/sensors, what to look for and the troubleshooting section for each area of the engine (Ignition, Control, Senders/sensors, etc). You also can't download just ANY code list- marine injection systems of your boat's vintage aren't closed loop. You don't have a MAF sensor or O2 sensor(s). If you were to google 'Indmar Predator engine', you would find some of the info you need.

You can't have a lean condition when black smoke is present. If it smells like gasoline and black smoke is present, it's either delivering too much fuel, or the fuel isn't burning completely. The ECT having high resistance would cause excessive fuel delivery.

I can understand being completely frustrated by the problems you're having with your boat, but:

-You complained about the shower hose failing- that was probably added by the dealer or the previous owner, not MC.
-The regulator was adjusted by the PO, not by a trained dealer or MC.
-You're replacing parts using what's referred to as a 'parts cannon' and working without correct troubleshooting info, training and diagnostic tools.

You're placing blame on MC when they had nothing to do with the problems. These engines are extremely reliable, the injection system is extremely reliable (the engines came off of the assembly only line needing a few accessories (raw water pump, fuel lines, marine starter/alternator, marine exhaust) and the harness that was designed for use in these boats, but the rest is all GM and its suppliers. There's almost no difference between this engine as delivered to Indmar and what went to Mercruiser, Volvo-Penta, PCM or anyone else. The ECM, harness, controller and programming were up to the shop that is owned by the person on the LT-1 high temperature technical bulletin and he definitely knows how to design, test, set up, program and troubleshoot these engines/systems and not only has he done development work for MC, he also did this for Indmar, GM and Delphi. He now does quite a bit for government agencies which place reliability above just about anything else, among others.

Anecdotally, I had a Chevrolet pickup with what's basically the same engine- 5.7L TBI and I never had any of the problems you are experiencing. I also don't remember seeing this set of problems in the time I have worked with boats/engines without some external cause, whether it was someone messing with a regulator when they didn't know what the he!! they were doing (the PO), mistaken diagnosis, incorrect parts or bad info. Personally, I would never have touched the fuel pressure regulator and I was trained to work on MC boats at the shop where the systems were designed, developed and tested, by the people who designed, developed and tested them.

You wrote that the injector spray looks good to the naked eye- use a timing light to see it better- it's like a snapshot when you check it this way. If it has any "tears" (meaning, gaps, like it was a torn paper cone) in the spray cone, you'll see it a lot more easily.
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  #22  
Old 09-02-2013, 11:14 AM
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Rossterman Rossterman is offline
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Originally Posted by JimN View Post
The ECT (Engine Temperature Sender) with two wires ONLY sends signal to the ECM, not the gauge and your comment contradicts itself.
Jimn,
I think you are saying that that there is a temp switch, a temp sender, and a MEFI temp sensor as well? The switch has a single wire and is up by the thermostat at the front of the engine and screws into a horizontal opening. it causes the CEL/ alarm when above 181 degrees and the bimetallic switch closes the single wire link to ground (through the MEFI). This may affect other aspects of the engine operation- I'm not sure. This doesn't feed the temp guage ( through the mefi or directly) as is only open or closed signal. The second single wire sensor in the manifold that sits nearby and screws in vertically and feeds the temp guage. My temp temp switch was bad but ran boat for a week with the CEL and couldn't tell the difference in performance so believe it acts solely as a warning w/o affecting anything else (realize later models have limp mode to better protect engine but if a 2001 tbi does, mine isn't working).

The temp sender (2wire plug you refer to) provides variable resistance signal to the MEFI to tell iit how hot it is so as to adjust one aspect of the fuel curve map. If bad, it will cause engine to run rich. As said, There is also another single wire sensor in the manifold so that one must feed the gauge correct? So gauge could read fine showing the engine is up to operating temp but MEFI thinks engine is cold and dumps in more fuel than needed? Changing any of the single wire sensors won't fix the rich condition. He needs to check the sensor that has 2 wires and determine the resistance hot and cold then replace if out of spec

Jimn- is this logic correct?

Cheers
Ross

Last edited by Rossterman; 09-02-2013 at 12:11 PM.
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  #23  
Old 09-02-2013, 01:16 PM
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JimN JimN is offline
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Originally Posted by Rossterman View Post
Jimn,
I think you are saying that that there is a temp switch, a temp sender, and a MEFI temp sensor as well? The switch has a single wire and is up by the thermostat at the front of the engine and screws into a horizontal opening. it causes the CEL/ alarm when above 181 degrees and the bimetallic switch closes the single wire link to ground (through the MEFI). This may affect other aspects of the engine operation- I'm not sure. This doesn't feed the temp guage ( through the mefi or directly) as is only open or closed signal. The second single wire sensor in the manifold that sits nearby and screws in vertically and feeds the temp guage. My temp temp switch was bad but ran boat for a week with the CEL and couldn't tell the difference in performance so believe it acts solely as a warning w/o affecting anything else (realize later models have limp mode to better protect engine but if a 2001 tbi does, mine isn't working).

The temp sender (2wire plug you refer to) provides variable resistance signal to the MEFI to tell iit how hot it is so as to adjust one aspect of the fuel curve map. If bad, it will cause engine to run rich. As said, There is also another single wire sensor in the manifold so that one must feed the gauge correct? So gauge could read fine showing the engine is up to operating temp but MEFI thinks engine is cold and dumps in more fuel than needed? Changing any of the single wire sensors won't fix the rich condition. He needs to check the sensor that has 2 wires and determine the resistance hot and cold then replace if out of spec

Jimn- is this logic correct?

Cheers
Ross
The one-wire temperature sensor is for the gauge. The MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp/Light) which is sometimes called the CEL is triggered by the ECM, nothing else. RPM Reduction, which far too many take to be "limp home mode" is triggered by the ECT and controlled by the ECM, nothing else. RPM Reduction was introduced as soon as injection was added, but they may have used a bi-metal switch as a backup on the '93-'94 models- I would have to refer to my first notes and manual for later TBI to be absolutely sure. I don't remember being told about anything happening at 181F- overheat is triggered at 200F, although boats used in hotter locations can be recalibrated to avoid hot start issues when heat soak occurs. There's really no reason to add a switch and the associated problems that come from another sensor when the ECM is already programmed to perform these functions, other than a level of redundancy. Relying on one sender for voltage signal when the resistance could vary isn't the most fail-safe situation, but a bi-metal switch isn't infallible, either.

The logic is correct WRT actual temperature vs two-wire sensor's resistance, but it could fail with lower OR higher resistance, so low resistance would cause hard cold start problems, yet it could run fine at normal operating temperatures if the resistance is within tolerance in that range. If the resistance is too low, it would immediately go into RPM reduction. If the resistance is extremely high, it will run rich at all temperatures and be very hard to start when hot.

Again, I would have to refer to my notes and manuals to be absolutely sure about the temperature switch, but I seriously doubt that's causing any of the problems on this boat. Rich fuel ratio could be a combination of faults, too. Bad ECT and TPS or MAP sensor (or both), leaky valves/rings with extremely bad compression loss could all contribute but, unless the engine was abused, I don't think the cylinders/rings/valves are so bad although no actual proof has been presented.
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  #24  
Old 09-02-2013, 03:43 PM
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Rossterman Rossterman is offline
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Boat: 2001 prostar 205V
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Jimn,
On my 2001 tbi motor there is a 1 wire temp switch for hi temp right near another 1 wire thermistor sensor for the guage. As you said, the one towards the front of the motor connects to the MEFI and sets a CEL for hi temp. The replacement has 181 stamped on it. Possibly on at 200 degrees and off at 181?

The other as you said feeds the gauge.

Didn't see the 2 wire sensor but probably down on the side of the block where it can't be easily seen. Here's a picture of the 2 single wire ones with the orange wire boots:
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Rossterman; 09-02-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-10-2013, 05:47 AM
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Mark rsa2au Mark rsa2au is offline
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Boat: Mastercraft X5 2001. 310hp preditor
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Ok, having run every possable electronic measurment mensioned on this and other forums ( and now the Indmar manual) I believe that all the current sensors on the boat are all within spec.

So far I have replaced both thermostats (origionals so replaced for insurance), the ecm temp sensor (faulty), and the impeller (insurance). The MAP sensor replaced (not sure if it was faulty) the throttle position sensor (bad readings), the Air Idle Screw (broken). This week I replaced the Knock sensor, and its connector as it was throwing a code.

The spark plugs, plug leads, distributer, rotor, and coil lead have all been replaced and firing order checked ok.

This week I replaced the fuel system. Fuel Filter, Walbro fuel pump (67 gallons per hour, and up to 90 psi), intank fuel lines and clamps. Also replaced fuel lines from the tank to the motor, and the return lines. Replaced pressure regulator and had the new injectors (30 hours) cleaned just in case. Installed fuel pressure guage and pressure sits steady at 31 PSI at all revs on the trailer (yes full throttle on water is the only real test).

Also pulled the valve covers off to check for broken valve springs, scored cams etc and can see nothing out of the ordinary. Also compression is steady across all cylinders.

Last thing to do is drain some oil from the motor as I have over filled it during the oil change I did. It's about 3 mm over the high mark on the dipstick.

Will be taking it out to the lake on Saturday for its final test, if it runs perfectly we keep it and I replace the MDC and/ or the guages as they have all sh@t themselves as well. If not.....

I do note that my previous 4 boats ( 2 X Yamaha, Sea Ray and Malibu) required no parts replacement other than normal servicing while I had them. They started easily and ran perfectly for the 3 to 5 years I owned each. None of them ever let me down and they were older than 10 years when I purchased them. I purchased a Mastercraft expecting to have a higher quality & reliability but sadly either due to poor desighn, poor quality, or poor maintainence this has not happened. I hope after testing / repairing / replacing everything possible I might find that legendary Mastercraft quality and reliability.

Ps Thanks to all that have helped so far, I will let you know on Saturday... or look out for the smoke signals....
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  #26  
Old 10-10-2013, 09:42 AM
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JimN JimN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark rsa2au View Post
Ok, having run every possable electronic measurment mensioned on this and other forums ( and now the Indmar manual) I believe that all the current sensors on the boat are all within spec.

So far I have replaced both thermostats (origionals so replaced for insurance), the ecm temp sensor (faulty), and the impeller (insurance). The MAP sensor replaced (not sure if it was faulty) the throttle position sensor (bad readings), the Air Idle Screw (broken). This week I replaced the Knock sensor, and its connector as it was throwing a code.

The spark plugs, plug leads, distributer, rotor, and coil lead have all been replaced and firing order checked ok.

This week I replaced the fuel system. Fuel Filter, Walbro fuel pump (67 gallons per hour, and up to 90 psi), intank fuel lines and clamps. Also replaced fuel lines from the tank to the motor, and the return lines. Replaced pressure regulator and had the new injectors (30 hours) cleaned just in case. Installed fuel pressure guage and pressure sits steady at 31 PSI at all revs on the trailer (yes full throttle on water is the only real test).

Also pulled the valve covers off to check for broken valve springs, scored cams etc and can see nothing out of the ordinary. Also compression is steady across all cylinders.

Last thing to do is drain some oil from the motor as I have over filled it during the oil change I did. It's about 3 mm over the high mark on the dipstick.

Will be taking it out to the lake on Saturday for its final test, if it runs perfectly we keep it and I replace the MDC and/ or the guages as they have all sh@t themselves as well. If not.....

I do note that my previous 4 boats ( 2 X Yamaha, Sea Ray and Malibu) required no parts replacement other than normal servicing while I had them. They started easily and ran perfectly for the 3 to 5 years I owned each. None of them ever let me down and they were older than 10 years when I purchased them. I purchased a Mastercraft expecting to have a higher quality & reliability but sadly either due to poor desighn, poor quality, or poor maintainence this has not happened. I hope after testing / repairing / replacing everything possible I might find that legendary Mastercraft quality and reliability.

Ps Thanks to all that have helped so far, I will let you know on Saturday... or look out for the smoke signals....
At any point, did you measure the resistance from the ground at the rear of the engine to the negative battery post? Not the cable clamp, the post. If you see more than about .1 Ohm of resistance, you need to find out why. Do the same on the positive cable going to the starter.
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2013, 04:45 PM
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Mark rsa2au Mark rsa2au is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimN View Post
At any point, did you measure the resistance from the ground at the rear of the engine to the negative battery post? Not the cable clamp, the post. If you see more than about .1 Ohm of resistance, you need to find out why. Do the same on the positive cable going to the starter.
Yep thanks Jim, I did this when I found the loose battery clamps a few months ago. I do not think the resistance was above .1ohm but will check again to be sure.
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2013, 02:14 AM
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Mark rsa2au Mark rsa2au is offline
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Yes!! Success At Last!!!!!

Took the boat out today and ran it hard for over an hour. Fuel pressure held steady at 32psi, and while we maxed out at 4500 rpm (new prop), there was no hessitation, no misfire spluttering, or farting. Pulled like a freight train.

I could hear the new fuel pump when running on the trailer but could not hear it when on the water.

No Codes either.

New prop is a 3 blade 12.5 inch diamter, 15 pitch. Runns easily to 45mph at 4500 rpm and wake is noticably flatter with no rooster tail out of the back. Even the kids noticed the flatter wake at 20 mph. Bad for our wakeboarders but we will fill the ballast bags for them.

Only issue was a nasty vibration from a full bore pull off, as if the prop was cavitating, but as soon as we picked up speed or backed off the power a little, the vibration went?
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2013, 05:10 AM
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hewlett6621 hewlett6621 is offline
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We'll done mate you must be over the moon after all the problems you have had. Summer is here early ,just go and enjoy.
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  #30  
Old 10-12-2013, 07:48 AM
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Mark rsa2au Mark rsa2au is offline
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Originally Posted by hewlett6621 View Post
We'll done mate you must be over the moon after all the problems you have had. Summer is here early ,just go and enjoy.
Thanks Mate! 3 weeks to Melbourne cup weekend, taking 4 days at Lake Eildon... cant wait!
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