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Old 11-02-2012, 12:58 AM
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KahunaCraft KahunaCraft is offline
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Pumps...thruster ...why not?

So I'm in the middle of planning a ballast upgrade... I have a few design requirements:

Must fill either side additional bags in less than 4 minutes (or better)
Must switch surf sides in less than 4 minutes (or better)
Draining for returning home can take 5-6 minutes.

After doing real world calculations, a reversible pump can move about 90lbs/minute...

Moving 2000 lbs with 3 new pumps + the 3 factory pumps (6 total) would translate to 6 x 90 x 4 minutes = 2160lbs

Goal solved right? Wrong.

I'm not all that excited about this configuration. I think, but am not sure ( i need guidance/help ), that there is a better way to fill/drain bags than using reversible pumps.

To fill, what if I used a Jabsco Low Pressure Cyclon Centrifugal Pump - 12V 50840-0012 ... It does ~29 vs ~8 GPM .. 3 times the volume on paper... 3 times faster.

What am I missing here? Likely an impeller burnout problem or other common problems with that type of use case. This pump isn't reversible.. Could solve that two ways. 1 use a set of valves to swap the fill/drain pipes ... 2 use a tsunami pump to drain or transfer surfsides from a separate connection to the bag.

I also think the real world #'s might be less. I gotta think that wakemakers or somebody has already spent more than the 20 minutes I have on this problem.

Ok, so maybe there is a better way, maybe not... I'll poke around to see what's possible.

But wait...Thinking bigger, much bigger and am wondering if when the thruster pump in the below video isn't being used to help dock or maneuver in tight places, could the massive jet pump be filling bags really fast?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLfosg89ak8&sns=em

Last edited by KahunaCraft; 11-02-2012 at 01:22 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-02-2012, 08:41 AM
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If you were crafty you could plump in the the Tsunami pumps...it's the flow control which would take a little effort and design to make it clean and serviceable. Or multiple Tsunami pumps in-out. Pumps are cheap and replacement cartridges are cheap. Probably spend more on Wire, hoses, switches.

Regarding the jet pump...that would be fun if you had north of $4K to spend on that project... that's alot of gas money...
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:23 AM
MLA MLA is offline
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Kahuna,

In terms if a transfer pump system, a reversible impeller pump like the Jabsco Ballast Puppy or Johnson Ultra Ballast, makes for the perfect pump. Not only does it push water both directions, but it act as a check-valve between the two sacs when off. Connect the transfer to a centrally located bottom sac fitting.

If im reading your post correctly it sound like you are looking to have a single fill pump with a diverter valve to direct the flow to which ever surf sac you want to fill. A diverter valve will greatly reduce flow rate. They can also be a little finicky on the drain cycle if you are using an impeller pump to draw back through them. I would recommend giving each sac its own fill pump if a short fill time is a high priority.

If your bilge is deep and has enough room, the Johnson Pro series or Rule Tournament Series aerator pumps are both 1600 GPH, or 26 GPM. The Rule 1100 makes for good drain pump.

As you stated, the Jabsco Cyclone is not reversible. Due to the head design and intake/outlet configuration, it will not flow in reverse, even if you wired it to a DPDT switch and reversed the direction of the motor. Its also not self-priming like an impeller pump. This means it would have to be mounted below the waterline for either a fill or drain pumps. As a fill pump, keep in mind its not waterproof, so if your bilge filled with some water, the pump motor could be damaged.
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:31 PM
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http://www.drainmastermarine.com
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  #5  
Old 11-02-2012, 08:08 PM
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KahunaCraft KahunaCraft is offline
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@mikeg205, yeah not cheap (closer to $5k +?k to install), plus a lot of space. You'd have to want a thruster to make it worth it, even then I have a better low cost option under consideration.

@MLA the boat is a 2012 X30 6L. It has stock ballasts, no PnP. I've got a bunch of bags, but am willing to start from scratch and use them as spare. Budget is about $1,500 (without bags).

I was thinking diverters, i didn't know they cut flow, could always go bigger (1-1/2 inch ) if that was an issue, at some point the diverters costs more than another pump. Or just go one bag per pump with a spare pump. The other reason for the diverters was to make use of an idle pump to fill or drain bags.

Good point on the waterline.

@xstar08 nice. I like that. Game changer. Anybody using that system?

Thank you, good helpful information. KahunaCraft
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:30 AM
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@kahunacraft: don't know if anybody is using it, thought you would be the perfect test bunny
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Old 11-03-2012, 03:40 AM
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You could also think about using these bilge pumps. They are not self priming and not reversible, so one pump for filling and one for emptying the sack(s). If installed below the water line there should not be a problem not having a selfpriming pump...

The good thing with these bilge pumps is that you won't have issues with dry running (cause they are made to do so).
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KahunaCraft View Post
So I'm in the middle of planning a ballast upgrade... I have a few design requirements:

Must fill either side additional bags in less than 4 minutes (or better)
Must switch surf sides in less than 4 minutes (or better)
Draining for returning home can take 5-6 minutes.

After doing real world calculations, a reversible pump can move about 90lbs/minute...

Moving 2000 lbs with 3 new pumps + the 3 factory pumps (6 total) would translate to 6 x 90 x 4 minutes = 2160lbs

Goal solved right? Wrong.

I'm not all that excited about this configuration. I think, but am not sure ( i need guidance/help ), that there is a better way to fill/drain bags than using reversible pumps.

To fill, what if I used a Jabsco Low Pressure Cyclon Centrifugal Pump - 12V 50840-0012 ... It does ~29 vs ~8 GPM .. 3 times the volume on paper... 3 times faster.

What am I missing here? Likely an impeller burnout problem or other common problems with that type of use case. This pump isn't reversible.. Could solve that two ways. 1 use a set of valves to swap the fill/drain pipes ... 2 use a tsunami pump to drain or transfer surfsides from a separate connection to the bag.

I also think the real world #'s might be less. I gotta think that wakemakers or somebody has already spent more than the 20 minutes I have on this problem.

Ok, so maybe there is a better way, maybe not... I'll poke around to see what's possible.

But wait...Thinking bigger, much bigger and am wondering if when the thruster pump in the below video isn't being used to help dock or maneuver in tight places, could the massive jet pump be filling bags really fast?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLfosg89ak8&sns=em
What is the weight capacity of your boat?
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2012, 10:15 AM
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KahunaCraft KahunaCraft is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimN View Post
What is the weight capacity of your boat?
2250 is the rated capacity, excluding the ~1000 lbs of factory ballast.

If I were a stickler for the rules, then the ~2000 additional ballast (3000 total) would leave enough for a driver and a spotter. Adjust as necessary based on the weight ppl in the boat, gear, conditions and requirements.

That being said, I've heard tales X30's north of 3,500 lbs. I've also watch people speed on interstate hwy's by as much as 50% of the limit.
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  #10  
Old 11-03-2012, 10:43 AM
Nordicron Nordicron is offline
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I think eventually most boats will go to a system like MB. Only problem I can see with MB or any factory ballast system is the coast guard ratings. Especially on the smaller 21' wake boats. Almost everybody out there adds bags or other ballast over what the factory uses. I just don't see how the factory can add 2-3k of weight standard to the boat and still have rated capacity left.
I wonder even how legal the plug and play systems some companies put in the boats as options don't subtract from the factory weight ratings. Or do they get around this by not providing the bags?
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