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ixthus
10-25-2004, 06:44 AM
I'm so impressed with how civilized everybody has been when discussing politics that I thought we could handle this topic also. :)



15 Reasons to go to Church

Even if you, your friends or your family members are not believers, there is value in going to church. Here are some facts that are reason enough to get up on Sunday mornings and hit the pews:


1. Church attendance is the number-one predictor of marital stability. (Journal of Marriage and the Family, 40)


2. Attending church is helpful in the prevention of cancer, heart disease, and mental illness. (National Institute of Healthcare Research in America, June 2000)


3. Teens who attend church are four-times less likely to commit suicide. (Journal of Chronic Disease, 25)


4. People who attend church are more likely to remain married and have a better sex-life. (David Larson, National Institute of Mental Health)


5. Church attendees stay half as long during hospital stays. (Duke University)


6. Those attending church are five-times less likely to require antibiotics. (Southern Medical Journal, July 1998)


7. There is lower blood pressure among men who attend church versus those who do not. (Duke University)


8. There's an additional average life expectancy of seven years. (Demography, May 1999)


9. People attending church report a 50% higher weekly average family income. (UCLA School of Medicine)


10. Church-goers have fewer heart attacks than non-church-goers. (David Larson, National Institute of Mental Health)


11. Those who attend religious services in their youth have about $11,000 more in yearly income by their early 30's. (UCLA School of Medicine)


12. Cities with high church attendance have the lowest crime rates. (Crime, Values and Religion, 1987)


13. People attending church are physically healthier and less depressed. (The American Medical News. 3/4/96)


14. Alcohol abuse is 300% less for those who attend church. (UCLA School of Medicine)


15. Church attendance moves the underprivileged out of poverty and into the middle class. (Why Religion Matters: The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability. The Heritage Foundation)

gene dobies
10-25-2004, 07:38 AM
Here, here my friend. I have been married for 27 years and always have attended church with my wife and children. We are blessed. I don't know how we could get through without God.

H20skeefreek
10-25-2004, 07:46 AM
In all fairness, some of those sources are a little biased. BUT, I do know that I attend church every sunday (unless I haven't skied for a few weeks, then we'll hit the lake early) and I'm happier for it. I've been happilly married for 4.5 years and I've been in a long faithful relationship with the same woman for 10 years. Our relationship started in Church Youth Group in High School.

Mag_Red
10-25-2004, 08:57 AM
Hmmmm.....this could explain a lot things that have been happening to me lately. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/leaving.gif

ixthus
10-25-2004, 09:14 AM
Willing to expand on that Mag or are you talking about MRBM?

Mag_Red
10-25-2004, 09:16 AM
Willing to expand on that Mag or are you talking about MRBM? No comment :D

ixthus
10-25-2004, 09:25 AM
No comment :D

Chicken! 8p

Mag_Red
10-25-2004, 09:29 AM
Chicken! 8p :uglyhamme You're as bad as the guys :purplaugh

DrNautica
10-25-2004, 09:31 AM
Does midnight Mass and mayby a trip on Easter count as "church attendance"?

ixthus
10-25-2004, 09:36 AM
:uglyhamme You're as bad as the guys :purplaugh
Moi? ;)



Does midnight Mass and mayby a trip on Easter count as "church attendance"?
It's better than nothing, IMO.

Dan K
10-25-2004, 10:23 AM
ixthus,
Thankyou for the message, It ties in perfectly with a group discussion I currently am participating in.

Ric
10-25-2004, 10:46 AM
Ixthus I can be civil regarding politics but not regarding divorce!
I applaud you on raising this topic.
My attendance in church rivals the Doc. I've always felt that I need to concentrate more on living right than I do showing up every sunday.

"I've sinned... I mean I don't have any polaroids or anything like that, but I've sinned."

Knoxes
10-25-2004, 11:30 AM
I never felt as spiritually liberated as I did when I walked away from the church. It's sad, really. I would have preferred to have stayed, but I felt I couldn't reconcile my beliefs with theirs. And I haven't found one that really represents - not really looking anymore.

captkidd
10-25-2004, 02:17 PM
Thanks Mrs. Ixthus for having the guts to start this. I've been on both sides of this fence (and straddled it as well), and I can definitely say that walking with God is much better than trying to run from Him. Reason #4 is more than enough to convince me ;) . I met my wife at church, we became engaged there, were married there, and are very excited about raising our son there. It's not a cure-all, but it certainly helps.

Knoxes, I've been in churches like that too. Don't give up just because one church (or several) have disappointed you.

Ric, as I'm sure you know, we can never "live right" enough to please God. The Bible says that "our righteousness is as filthy rags" to Him. I'm not very good at quoting Scripture, and I don't go around doing it all the time, but it also says that "we've all sinned and fallen short of God's glory" (pleasing Him). We can never be "good enough".

I would recommend reading a book by Rick Warren, "The Purpose Driven Life". It certainly explains it a lot better than I ever could.

ixthus
10-25-2004, 02:27 PM
Knoxes and Ric-

Having grown up in one of the big denomination churches where going to church was all about tradition, ritual and guilt I know exactly what you guys are talking about.

Concentrating on living right is a good thing but you need the "church". Church has nothing to do with a building, we, the people are the church. We all need someone to share our experiences, homes and problems; we're stonger together than we're apart.

My family has been blessed with a church whose motto is "We do life together." and we do!

Don't give up Knoxes, keep looking, you'll find them!

And just for the record: I'm NOT saying you can't find what you're looking for at the "denomination" churches.

Leroy
10-25-2004, 02:45 PM
Well done post Ixthus! Didn't realize the stats, but in general it makes sense.
I have also been good and bad in attendance and things always seem to go better when I'm in regular attendance mode. I also struggle with several of the Catholic Church's doctrine (converted ~10 years ago), I have had a problem with some doctrine in every church and decided it was about how it could help me and how it could help me to help others. So I look for the good and what it can do for me and the things I disagree with, well often that is someone else's strength so they can bear that cross.

Mag_Red
10-25-2004, 02:49 PM
Knoxes and Ric-

Church has nothing to do with a building, we, the people are the church. We all need someone to share our experiences, homes and problems; we're stonger together than we're apart.

Sounds like the people on the Mastcraft forum have been my church lately :toast:

captkidd
10-25-2004, 02:55 PM
Mag, that's exactly what Mrs. Ixthus said. The church really has nothing to do with the building. Glad we could all be here for you (although we probably didn't help much).

ixthus
10-25-2004, 02:59 PM
Sounds like the people on the Mastcraft forum have been my church lately :toast:

Mag you're absolutely right but virtual hugs are not as nice as real ones! 8p

ski_king
10-25-2004, 03:08 PM
Thanks Ixthus for starting this thread.

I have been pleasantly suprised to find some christian waterski web sites.

http://www.inhiswakes.com/

http://www.skidim.com/daily_encouragement.asp

Ric
10-25-2004, 03:12 PM
Thanks Ix I agree with what you're saying and I'm certainly not running from anything.
I have seen some "people" who make up the church do some terrible things that have made me think twice about how self righteous some who attend weekly really are. That being said, I don't hold God or the church of any denomonation responsible for mans imperfections.

Guys, The polaroid thing was a fletch quote trying to keep the thread a little on the lighthearted side.

Knoxes
10-25-2004, 03:19 PM
I just haven't found one that I could really commit myself to - that I felt reflected or atleast embraced the ideas I have/had. I don't like being bound by any set of beliefs and I've found myself enjoying rituals from Ramadan to the rosary.

I agree though, that it's important to be in an environment where these ideas can be discussed on a regular basis. Otherwise I become stagnant, and that's a short step from jerk for me.

Leec
10-25-2004, 04:54 PM
Does midnight Mass and mayby a trip on Easter count as "church attendance"?
NO!:noface: :noface: :noface: But it is a start!

:smile:

lakes Rick
10-25-2004, 05:31 PM
I would have to add that the wildest girls I ever dated were from the mormon dances in town locally.. Whew wee were they fun...

My good buddy met BOTH of his wives at church.. They both were having affairs with other men while married to him.. One was carrying the child of another before the divorce was final..

Most of my customers who PUSHED how they were good christians, were the greediest, bloodsucking business people I ever met.. I run when I see a " fish " now.....

stevo137
10-25-2004, 06:10 PM
Rick,
It is unfortunate that there are people who are hypocrites especially in the church. It's just a part of life.
I have visited and been part of quite a few different churches over the years and have lost interest in attending at this time.
While I haven't experienced any major problems myself besides people that are not sincere, I do know of some stories that are very disturbing.
I don't have a problem with someone that makes a mistake and is sincerely sorry for it. It's the wolf in sheeps clothing that are tough to discern and can do the most damage.
I can tell you this much for sure, there are some great Christian people in the world who truly love God and are doing great things for His purpose.
Ixthus,
Thanks for the post, it should be a good discussion. I have great respect for everyone that is a part of this forum. It would be nice if we all could meet face to face someday.
I think we all respect each other dispite our differences.

lakes Rick
10-25-2004, 07:32 PM
Stevo, I truly do understand what you said and agree with you.. Rick

rem_p
10-25-2004, 08:21 PM
I would have to add that the wildest girls I ever dated were from the mormon dances in town locally.. Whew wee were they fun...

My good buddy met BOTH of his wives at church.. They both were having affairs with other men while married to him.. One was carrying the child of another before the divorce was final..

Most of my customers who PUSHED how they were good christians, were the greediest, bloodsucking business people I ever met.. I run when I see a " fish " now.....

I have also seen that here locally in some churches...i even saw a preacher from one church buying beer and cigarettes in a gas station one friday nite.... :confused: i was shocked....but all i can say is that the people doing this are not living for god, or in church for the right reasons...my opinion

H20skeefreek
10-25-2004, 08:26 PM
I have also seen that here locally in some churches...i even saw a preacher from one church buying beer and cigarettes in a gas station one friday nite.... :confused: i was shocked....but all i can say is that the people doing this are not living for god, or in church for the right reasons...my opinion


There is nothing wrong with the consumption of alcohol. The OVER consumption is wrong Try to find any record of other beverages being drank in the bible. Jesus turned water into wine. My church uses real wine during communion, and no we aren't Catholic.

Now, the cigarettes is kinda wierd, i've never seen a preacher smoke.

Smitty
10-25-2004, 09:45 PM
I think the point of the first post, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that a family that prays together stays together. We can all be cynical and say that its not always that case, but for the most part it is true. We all have our faults, even Christians, Muslims, Hindu's, etc. A part of believing is acknowledging that we are sinful by nature and that a higher power exists to help us be better people. Church is meant to strengthen and support your beliefs and to encourage outreach to those who need it. Using a church to pick up dates and to show how much better your are than others is not my understanding of church and religion. I understand that church may not be for all people, but a church is meant to be a place of santuary, shelter, hospitality, community, fellowship, counsel and so on.

The best thing I ever heard about religion is that its like ice cream; everbody has there own favorite flavor that is their own, but in the end its still ice cream. That is; we all have our own way of worshiping and acknowledging God's presence, but in the end we are here to worship him and to serve others.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

rem_p
10-25-2004, 10:05 PM
There is nothing wrong with the consumption of alcohol. The OVER consumption is wrong Try to find any record of other beverages being drank in the bible. Jesus turned water into wine. My church uses real wine during communion, and no we aren't Catholic.

Now, the cigarettes is kinda wierd, i've never seen a preacher smoke.


well this is in the south... i guess its just a Southern Baptist thing but i never seen a preacher drink or smoke....infact we had a preacher once who got fired because he was caught in a local store buying beer....now i dont have anything against drinkin a cold one it just seems odd to me that the ones trying to get him fired for buying the beer, are the same ones that act like they never have drank a beer in there life (hypocrits) :twocents:

H20skeefreek
10-25-2004, 10:33 PM
well this is in the south... i guess its just a Southern Baptist thing but i never seen a preacher drink or smoke....infact we had a preacher once who got fired because he was caught in a local store buying beer....now i dont have anything against drinkin a cold one it just seems odd to me that the ones trying to get him fired for buying the beer, are the same ones that act like they never have drank a beer in there life (hypocrits) :twocents:


it's not a southern thing, maybe southern baptist thing, i don't know. I live in SC. I've drank wine at dinner with my preacher. and I've thrown back a few with the youth minister at the church. All in moderation though. I saw my preacher at the grocery one time, i was carrying 3 cases of beer. He said "i'll grab the ice and be right behind you!"

It's all about livin', laughin' and Lovin'.

Vern Swieringa
10-26-2004, 12:20 AM
OK It's time for a preacher to add his :twocents: I left the insurance industry 14 years ago to go back to school to become a pastor. 9 1/2 years later I was ordained as a minsiter of the Word. What made me do it? It wasn't the church (I saw all it's flaws). It wasn't my wife (she had to warm up to the idea of being a preacher's wife). It wasn't the money (I make less now than I did when I sold insurance 14 years ago). I became a minister, because Jesus Christ died and rose again for me and everybody else who puts their faith in him. The church is simply a body of forgiven sinners, who live under grace. We all sin (even preachers) because none of us have arrived yet. None of us have received our glorified bodies, which will not be able to sin. SO then, the only perfect church is in heaven and it will not come to this earth until Jesus returns. But if we wait that long to find the perfect church, it will be too late. My advice is to find a church that speaks the truth in love. Admits it's faults. Forgives those who ask for foregiveness. And doesn't point fingers. But most importantly celebrates thier Savior.

P.S. I like an occasional Killians. Preachers are people too and to drink in moderation is quite all right. But if my beer should cause someone else to stumble, I would respectfully refrain.

captkidd
10-26-2004, 10:08 AM
Pastor Vern, thanks for the good words. I've known several men who walked away from jobs that paid very well in order to go into the ministry, and I've never heard any of them say they made the wrong choice.

There is nothing wrong with the consumption of alcohol. The OVER consumption is wrong Try to find any record of other beverages being drank in the bible.


While the Bible doesn't mention iced tea, coffee or soft drinks, it certainly speaks a lot about drinking water. Daniel drank water, Jesus asked the Samaritan woman for a drink of water, Elijah drank from the spring, and there are many other instances where the beverage of choice was water. I personally prefer Diet Dr. Pepper or Diet Mt. Dew, but I'm sure that water is better for me.

Before I accepted Christ I used to drink a lot, especially on the weekends. I typically hung out in bars and nightclubs and partied with my friends every weekend. There were far too many nights that I drove home when I had absolutely no business behind the wheel of a car; it was only by God's grace that I didn't get arrested or worse yet, kill someone. I made a decision to quit drinking because it was something that caused me to do some very stupid things that I would have never done without the alcohol. IMHO, anything that impairs your ability to think clearly and to make good judgments is something that should be avoided.

Even though the Bible never says that you shouldn't drink at all, it does warn against overindulging, and some people can't drink at all without drinking too much. I know of several men in our church who have lost their homes and families due to alcoholism, and our position is that we can help them much more if we totally refrain from alcohol. I don't judge anyone who chooses differently or believes differently, it's just that for our church and for me, we believe that the best policy is to totally avoid anything that can cause so many problems.

I'd be lying if I said that every once in a while I didn't have an urge to have a cold beer. But, the problems that it could cause would be so much greater than the brief enjoyment I would get from it. There's nothing that I miss about my old lifestyle; my life now is so much better.

Vern Swieringa
10-26-2004, 11:26 AM
Captkidd,

I'm glad you were able to turn your life around with God's help. And I certianly understand how one beer can cause a recovering alcoholic to fall off the wagon. I certainly respect your and your church's decision not to drink at all, for fear of stumbling yourself or making others stumble. I seldom have a beer, myself. But I have no problem with drinking an occasional beer with friends who don't get drunk. But each person must decide for themselves. I think you have made the right decision considering your personal circumstances and I applaud you. Let me end by saying, that the temptation all Christians have to avoid is judging eachother in these disputable matters (see Romans 14).

Keep the faith!!!

Leec
10-26-2004, 05:47 PM
I personally prefer Diet Dr. Pepper or Diet Mt. Dew, but I'm sure that water is better for me.
Well try to avoid canned drinks the facts are not in on Aluminum cans and alzheimer's (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=alzheimer%27s%3F&spell=1) disease.;)
:smile:

ixthus
10-26-2004, 08:24 PM
Our church doesn't ban drinking and, although I happen to know that some of my friends drink an occasional beer, I have yet to see anybody drinking any alcohol!

My husband and I choose not to drink for various reasons one of them being that we both grew up with alcoholic fathers. Another reason and probably the most important, our children. We tell them drinking is not bad but getting drunk is. In America (as opposed to Europe) drinking is all about "partying and having fun". We want our children to understand we can have fun without it. That's why we have a MasterCraft! :woohoo:

Captkidd,
I'm glad you were able to turn your life around with God's help.
Me too! :D

ixthus
10-26-2004, 08:41 PM
Guys, The polaroid thing was a fletch quote trying to keep the thread a little on the lighthearted side.

I couldn't remember where it came from but I did chuckle when I read it! 8p

BriEOD
10-26-2004, 09:18 PM
I agree with you that church is a good thing. However, those statistics are a bit askew. It's like saying we should do away with ice cream because when sales are high more rapes occur. Well of course, the weather is warm, people wear less clothes etc. It's indirectly related as are most of those references. But, hey it is your thread you spin it anyway you want.

Church is good, I just don't think many of those actually have any scientific or sociological empirical value.

ixthus
10-26-2004, 10:00 PM
I agree with you that church is a good thing. However, those statistics are a bit askew. It's like saying we should do away with ice cream because when sales are high more rapes occur. Well of course, the weather is warm, people wear less clothes etc. It's indirectly related as are most of those references. But, hey it is your thread you spin it anyway you want.

Church is good, I just don't think many of those actually have any scientific or sociological empirical value.

OK,so, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that these studies are not valid because the Universities, Medical journals, Mental Health institutions etc. that conducted the studies have made it look like the results are directly related to attending church. But in reality the results are directly related to something else...

BriEOD
10-26-2004, 10:29 PM
I'm not saying each and everyone one of the examples is a fallacy. However, I believe many of those are based on indirect truth. For a lot of them I don't see how those can be hard and fast facts. As many researchers, especially sociologists will tell you, most research is not all inclusive. For example lets take #5:

5. Church attendees stay half as long during hospital stays. (Duke University)

As compared to who? What group of people did they use as a sample for this comparison? I'll use my own peer group as an example. Their is no way that church attendees are healthier and stay half as long in hospitals as military personnel. Their is a few million military personnel that you could use as a sample. Military personnel have to pass medical screening to enter into military service,r conduct more physical fitness on average and are probably one of the top 3 groups in the US in regards to health. Military Docs are quite often criticized that they aren't on par with their civilian counterparts. It has been documented that this is due to them dealing with a pool of young, healthy people. So, you're going to tell me on average that church attendees stay half as long? Based on what? Against who?

15. Church attendance moves the underprivileged out of poverty and into the middle class. (Why Religion Matters: The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability. The Heritage Foundation)

This one just blows me away, again I would like to read the research method on this. This says to me that going to church changes the goals and means of lower class people in regards to their ability to function in our society. I cannot even think of a sociological theory that even remotely comes close to explaining this.

8. There's an additional average life expectancy of seven years. (Demography, May 1999)

This is no different then my ice cream/rape explanation. How do you know their isn't some other factor. It is coincidental at best. It's also based on quanitative demographics rather then a study.

I'm a matter of fact kind of person. I want to see it in black and white. A large problem with our society is people read something in a paper or see it on TV and take it as fact. It's possible to spin things in many different ways. I'm very skeptical when I read things like posted here. I'd like to see the data and research methods.

Again, I'm not challenging that church is good. I'm all for it. I grew up, went to Catholic school the whole 9 yds. But, I question some of those statements.

NeilM
10-26-2004, 11:08 PM
Brian,
Fully understand, and agree, with what your saying.. as my Stats prof said: "The demographics of planet earth clearly say that every human has one tit and one testicle"...

Nonetheless, I think this world would be a lot better place if the values from (most) church environments were practiced by a larger percentage of the population...

Knoxes
10-26-2004, 11:46 PM
I'm not saying each and everyone one of the examples is a fallacy. However, I believe many of those are based on indirect truth. For a lot of them I don't see how those can be hard and fast facts. As many researchers, especially sociologists will tell you, most research is not all inclusive. For example lets take #5:

...

I'm a matter of fact kind of person. I want to see it in black and white. A large problem with our society is people read something in a paper or see it on TV and take it as fact. It's possible to spin things in many different ways. I'm very skeptical when I read things like posted here. I'd like to see the data and research methods.

Again, I'm not challenging that church is good. I'm all for it. I grew up, went to Catholic school the whole 9 yds. But, I question some of those statements.


perfect.

What they have demonstrated is a correlation, not a causal-effect relationship. Correlation does not imply causation.

ixthus
10-27-2004, 12:42 AM
8. There's an additional average life expectancy of seven years. (Demography, May 1999)

For this one they used 20,000 adults representative of the U.S. population (I know:rolleyes: ). The study was conducted by Oman and Thoresen sociologists at the University of California, Berkeley.

I could probably go one by one and give you exactly what you want but I really don't wanna work that hard (do your own research slacker 8p ) so I'll just say that dozens upon dozens of these kind of studies have been done over and over through the years. They have all used different kinds of groups:people over 64, heart patients, youth from inner-cities, single women and men, adults representative of the U.S. population, I don't know about the military but that would be interesting. The numbers also vary from a small sample of 200 to thousands like the Oman and Thoresen. They have been conducted by religious and non religious groups. The study changes from smoking to colon cancer. The results are always the same.

I understand your skepticism; anybody can manipulate data.

Is it really so hard to believe that "Church attendance moves the underprivileged out of poverty and into the middle class."? Not to me, I've seen it happen. So, when all is said and done the studies and statistics don't really matter. You have to experience it yourself.

Is sitting on a pew Sunday mornings going to make you live longer? No, but the love of the people sitting around you might.

Like you said "church is a good thing".

Leec
10-27-2004, 02:56 AM
Confucious say man who pass gas in Church sit in own pew!:o

:smile:

gene dobies
10-27-2004, 09:05 AM
I agree with you that church is a good thing. However, those statistics are a bit askew. It's like saying we should do away with ice cream because when sales are high more rapes occur. Well of course, the weather is warm, people wear less clothes etc. It's indirectly related as are most of those references. But, hey it is your thread you spin it anyway you want.

Church is good, I just don't think many of those actually have any scientific or sociological empirical value.

Rapes don't occurr when a woman dresses provocatively, they are not of sexual lust but a form of violence by the perpetrator.

Vern Swieringa
10-27-2004, 09:33 AM
Isn't it funny how a thread that begins talking about the benefits of belonging to a church turns into a discussion about rape??? :confused:

BriEOD
10-27-2004, 11:18 AM
Here we go with the telephone game...

I was using the example of rape and ice cream as an example. Their have been many studies that show quanitatively that when ice cream sales are up more rapes occur. So, you could argue that we should do away with ice cream. However, then we must apply a little common sense because we know ice cream has nothing to do with rape. This is known as spuriousness. A meaningless relationship.

Their are many theories on why crimes occur. You could fill books with them all. Is it a learned behavior, biologically inherited, etc. With that said, I would suspect their are many reasons why a rapists rapes. But, I'll put myself out here on a limb and say that a victim wearing less clothes such as shorts and a bikini top is more vulnerable then a person in a sweat suit. Actually, I'm sure many rapists use the theory of neutralization techniques to justify what they are doing. "Well, she dressed like that so she deserves it."

captkidd
10-27-2004, 11:51 AM
I agree with you that church is a good thing. However, those statistics are a bit askew. It's like saying we should do away with ice cream because when sales are high more rapes occur. Well of course, the weather is warm, people wear less clothes etc.

Oh man! I already gave up beer and now I've got to give up ice cream too?! :rant:

Thanks for the good words, but I wasn't an alcoholic, just a heavy partier. I rarely even drank during the week, just a lot on the weekends.

Wouldn't the aluminum can thing apply to beer as well as soft drinks?

Their are many theories on why crimes occur. You could fill books with them all. Is it a learned behavior, biologically inherited, etc. With that said, I would suspect their are many reasons why a rapists rapes. But, I'll put myself out here on a limb and say that a victim wearing less clothes such as shorts and a bikini top is more vulnerable then a person in a sweat suit. Actually, I'm sure many rapists use the theory of neutralization techniques to justify what they are doing. "Well, she dressed like that so she deserves it."
Certainly doesn't explain why so many rapists attack old defenseless women.

jimmer2880
10-27-2004, 12:53 PM
Well try to avoid canned drinks the facts are not in on Aluminum cans and alzheimer's (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=alzheimer%27s%3F&spell=1) disease.;)
:smile:
That's why I only drink either Bottled or Draught beer! :toast:

I like this thread. Thx for having the guts to get it started.

Guess I need to get my pastor fired since he cracked a cold one with all of us after my wedding ceremony was over. :friday:

Vern Swieringa
10-27-2004, 01:02 PM
Captkidd, I didn't mean to imply that you were anything other than a partier. I had my season of partying too. And I agree with you, I don't miss getting drunk at all. I love waking up refreshed and no hangover.

But I'm going to keep eating my icecream in Saugatuck :D on hot days, regardless of what the women are or are not wearing.

BriEOD
10-27-2004, 01:12 PM
Certainly doesn't explain why so many rapists attack old defenseless women.

Nor was it an attempt to. My point to this entire debate is you can spin data many different ways. Just because you read something doesn't mean it is true. Especially on the internet. As they say in Missouri..."Show Me."

BriEOD
10-27-2004, 01:16 PM
Here let me back myself up with facts from experts and data....

Academic study reveals: Ice cream production is closely correllated with the rate of forcible rape. Yes, that's right — Professor Eugene Volokh, of the prestigious UCLA School of Law and the even more prestigious Volokh Conspiracy Web log, has uncovered scientific evidence that ice cream production is closely correlated with the forcible rape rate.

Professor Volokh used 2000 data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Reports, and 2000 data from the international Dairy Foods Association's Dairy Facts publication; the correlation was 0.84, which is very high (1 would be a perfect correlation and 0 would be no correlation at all) and statistically significant. Unfortunately, data on monthly ice cream consumption was unavailable, but ice cream production data seems likely to be a good rough proxy for ice cream consumption. For the spreadsheet containing this data — The Volokh Conspiracy is a stickler for openness in research — see here.

It is time, especially in this election season, that Big Dairy be asked some serious questions about this disturbing phenomenon and about its impact on the women and children of our nation. Professor Volokh (volokh at law.ucla.edu) is available for interviews and commentary on this important research finding.

captkidd
10-27-2004, 01:44 PM
Academic study reveals: Ice cream production is closely correllated with the rate of forcible rape. Yes, that's right — Professor Eugene Volokh, of the prestigious UCLA School of Law and the even more prestigious Volokh Conspiracy Web log, has uncovered scientific evidence that ice cream production is closely correlated with the forcible rape rate.

Is there another kind of rape?

Vern, I wasn't offended or anything, (unless we really have to quit eating ice cream).

Brian, I knew you weren't talking about old women, and I agree that you can spin anything to say what you want. Otherwise there would be only one church denomination.

ixthus
10-27-2004, 02:45 PM
As a resident of "America's Dairyland" I resent the hateful talk about one of our most beloved products!
Please...stop the hate. :cry:
________


As I said before it's all about the people and fellowship:

"Real fellowship is so much more than just showing up at services. It is experincing life together. It includes unselfish loving, honest sharing, practical serving, sacrificial giving, sympathetic comforting, and all the other "one another" commands found in the New Testament."
"The Purpose Driven Live" by Rick Warren

And that is how you directly reap the benefits numbered in the first post of this thread.

Brian, just curious, do you currently attend church? Why or why not?

BriEOD
10-27-2004, 03:41 PM
Yes, RC denomination.

Why, probably because it's more of a "norm" then anything else. I was raised in church, went to a RC school, Christian College etc. I'll leave it at that. My beliefs and opinions on this subject are very personal to me. I like some of Benjamin Franklin's ideas on religion. But I will say their is a lot you can learn from the bible. Some of the best college classes I have taken were based on the good book. You can get history, law, ethics, fables, religion, love stories, war stories, action stories, you name it. I'm a big Old Test fan I think it is far more interesting then the New Testament (save JC).

However, people have their own interpretations. I mean some people handle poisonous snakes in church because they literally interpret a passage in the new testament. Lots of weirdos and hypocrites that claim foundation in religion...

Vern Swieringa
10-27-2004, 03:51 PM
That's great you love the O.T. Too many people think once the N.T. was written the O.T. is just an old dispensation. The truth is that even though there are hundreds of stories in both the Old and New Testiment, they all tell one overriding story, that of God's redemptive history. The "Old" Testiment is the "New" concealed and the "New" is the "Old" revealed. And Jesus Christ stands at the center of all God's redemptive work. Sorry for the sermon :o But preachers can't help it! :D

captkidd
10-27-2004, 03:56 PM
Preach on.

There are stories in the OT that rival anything that modern fiction writers could come up with, and they're true. Stories of murder, rape, incest, etc. (in case you're wondering, those aren't being portrayed as good things :) ). You definitely can't have either Testament without the other.

ixthus
10-28-2004, 10:17 AM
Thanks for sharing Brian, specially since this is so personal to you.

I must admit I'm more of a NT person myself but I don't dismiss the OT. Psalms and Proverbs are two of my favorite books.

Lots of weirdos and hypocrites that claim foundation in religion... Unfortunately, yes. They are in every church and they are usually the ones who speak for the rest of us in the media. *sigh*

For some of you Catholics (and others) out there... I grew up reading the King James version of the Bible. I never even knew there were different versions out there until I was in college! If you've never read anything other than the King James try picking up some other version,(approved by your church, of course ;) ) there are quite a few. I thought it was the coolest thing the first time I read the Bible in plain english!

ixthus
10-28-2004, 12:33 PM
Thanks Ixthus for starting this thread.

I have been pleasantly suprised to find some christian waterski web sites.

http://www.inhiswakes.com/

http://www.skidim.com/daily_encouragement.asp
I was just checking inhiswakes.com. That looks pretty cool. The "Night of Champions" looks particularly interesting. Maybe I can get 'em to come to WI!
Have you ever seen them in person?

east tx skier
10-28-2004, 12:50 PM
Question: Got God?
Answer: Yup.

That said, I'm loving reading Brian's post and agree with what he says about fact-spinning in a general sense. I don't know whether there's a scientific relationship between religion and the things listed or if it's merely a correlation. Not one of those things forms the underlying rationale for my relationship with the "Almighty Skipper in the Sky."

The ice cream example is a good one. Here's another. I've got two homebrewed beers (yes, as Lee says, the jury is still out on AL) in a box sitting on my desk that I have pondered mailing to Brian from time-to-time, but have refrained doing so given legal issues related thereto. Since the building has not fallen to the ground while the box has been sitting there, nor have I been attacked by tigers, I reason that the box of beer is keeping the building up and the tigers at bay.

Have a great day everyone!

ixthus
10-28-2004, 01:50 PM
If a guy says something and no woman hears it, is he still wrong? :dance:

east tx skier
10-28-2004, 02:10 PM
... and they accuse us of raising our voices too much. ;)

lakes Rick
10-28-2004, 05:46 PM
If a guy says something and no woman hears it, is he still wrong? :dance:

One of the guys you are talking about was on Dr. Phil last night..

captkidd
10-29-2004, 10:28 AM
For some of you Catholics (and others) out there... I grew up reading the King James version of the Bible. I never even knew there were different versions out there until I was in college! If you've never read anything other than the King James try picking up some other version,(approved by your church, of course ;) ) there are quite a few. I thought it was the coolest thing the first time I read the Bible in plain english!

Mrs. Ixthus, I totally agree. I originally went to a church that was obsessed with rules about things you shouldn't do. Number one on the list was that the KJV was the only version of the Bible that you should use (after all, we all talk like that anyway). Somewhere along the way they missed that "translation" part. Christianity isn't about a lot of rules and regulations that make your life miserable; that's why we have the government. :D

east tx skier
10-29-2004, 11:02 AM
I've read other versions, but still prefer the Old King James version. Sure, we don't talk like that any more, but the same could be said for Shakespeare. Plus, I find the more-poetically written verses easier to memorize if need be. May just be the English major in me.

captkidd
10-29-2004, 03:41 PM
I agree that John 3:16, Psalm 23, Luke 2 (the Christmas story), etc., are much more poetic in the KJV version, and most people have probably memorized these versions. But, the KJV is so hard to read and to try to understand that it just isn't practical for daily use, IMHO. Still, whatever works for you.

east tx skier
10-29-2004, 03:46 PM
Not saying there's anything wrong with other translations. Agree with "whatever works for you." Just my preference. I don't find it hard to read and understand.

BriEOD
10-29-2004, 05:38 PM
Question: Got God?
Answer: Yup.

That said, I'm loving reading Brian's post and agree with what he says about fact-spinning in a general sense. I don't know whether there's a scientific relationship between religion and the things listed or if it's merely a correlation. Not one of those things forms the underlying rationale for my relationship with the "Almighty Skipper in the Sky."

The ice cream example is a good one. Here's another. I've got two homebrewed beers (yes, as Lee says, the jury is still out on AL) in a box sitting on my desk that I have pondered mailing to Brian from time-to-time, but have refrained doing so given legal issues related thereto. Since the building has not fallen to the ground while the box has been sitting there, nor have I been attacked by tigers, I reason that the box of beer is keeping the building up and the tigers at bay.

Have a great day everyone!

Doug, I'm here for you bud! ;)

Leec
10-29-2004, 06:25 PM
[QUOTE=ixthus]As a resident of "America's Dairyland" I resent the hateful talk about one of our most beloved products!
Please...stop the hate. :cry:
________


As I said before it's all about the people and fellowship:

"Real fellowship is so much more than just showing up at services. It is experincing life together. It includes unselfish loving, honest sharing, practical serving, sacrificial giving, sympathetic comforting, and all the other "one another" commands found in the New Testament."
"The Purpose Driven Live" by Rick Warren
QUOTE]
Ixthus,I recognized that verbage right away as we are right in the middle of The Purpose Driven Life. 40 Days. Did you quote that from memory or from the book?:D
:smile:

ixthus
10-29-2004, 10:13 PM
40 days! :headbang: On day 20 today.

Did you quote that from memory or from the book?:D
:smile: I have enough trouble memorizing one scripture a week :o

Leec
10-29-2004, 10:16 PM
So you are in it right now also. Great program. :)

:smile:

stevo137
10-30-2004, 12:20 AM
I think I'm gonna try 40 days, no booze and see how I feel. ;)

Leec
10-30-2004, 08:17 AM
Stevo you will feel a whole lot better, I know I did. More energy. But you weren't serious about quitting for 40 days, were you?8p
:smile:

stevo137
10-30-2004, 09:47 AM
OK, I'm gonna try starting the 1st. I love this editing option! :D
Ixthus, great thread you started, keep it going.
I have a feeling it will continue regardless.
Is that 40 days a program or a devotional book?

ixthus
10-31-2004, 10:01 AM
Is that 40 days a program or a devotional book?Yes!
It can be a personal devo but our church is doing the "40 Days of Purpose Campaign". We are reading the book "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. The book has 40 chapters and we read a chapter a day, hence the 40 days. We all signed up to read the book and once a week we meet in small groups at someones home to discuss what we've learned. Our church provided all the materials for us - book, study guide and video.
You can find more inormation about the book here:
http://www.purposedrivenlife.com/

This book is really challenging me in all different areas of my life and I would recommend it to anybody.

stevo137
10-31-2004, 10:08 AM
Thanks Ixthus,
It's funny that you mention the book, while visiting a customer on Friday I noticed that book on the receptionist's desk.
Maybe I should give that book a try.

ixthus
10-31-2004, 10:37 AM
Thanks Ixthus,
It's funny that you mention the book, while visiting a customer on Friday I noticed that book on the receptionist's desk.
Hmmm...God works in mysterious ways... :)


Maybe I should give that book a try.
Go for it!

captkidd
11-01-2004, 03:28 PM
Not saying there's anything wrong with other translations. Agree with "whatever works for you." Just my preference. I don't find it hard to read and understand.
Yeah, but you read all that legal stuff and understand it too. ;)

ixthus
03-23-2005, 09:37 AM
On Good Morning America (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=606157&page=1) this morning: Book Helped Save Hostage.

Professor
03-23-2005, 11:30 AM
"Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People?" by Melvin Tinker.

Beau7
03-23-2005, 12:18 PM
I appreciate your thoughts on the subject & in my experience those that believe these ideas will think I'm nuts.
My wife & I have been married for several years & have a great life together. We are good natured people & lead a good life.
We both believe that there is/was "something" way back when the earth & man was created but neither of us feel the need to worship an all powerful being. And we certainly don't feel the need to contribute to a profit center for someone else's benefit to somehow validate our belief.
After many discussions with people of various faiths, we have been told that we are leading our lives in an empty or unfullfilling way. This is far from the case. We have each other & our families. We own a home in a fantastic neighborhood & enjoy our summers skiing behind our Mastercraft.
We are of the belief that together we are strong enough that we don't feel the need to hang our hats on any all powerful being, much less a worship group that is basically just a business profit center. There may very well be a god & an afterlife. But I'm more concerned with the here & now. And when this "God" allows innocent lives to be destroyed (the recent asian tsunami for example, or the 16 yr old shooting people in MN), then I am less likely to believe that he'll help my family any more than he does anyone else.
Anyway, we'll see just how "big" this group is when they read this. Take care & we'll ski ya someday.

ixthus
03-23-2005, 01:17 PM
Beau7 -

I don't think you're nuts, I know what you're talking about; been there, done that.

You're going to feel the way you do until you find the right people to talk to, "true" believers who really know what it's all about. I have been blessed with having found such people.

I get the sense you didn't read the link about Rick Warren; if you read through it (I know it's long) you'll get a glimpse of what I'm talking about.






And when this "God" allows innocent lives to be destroyed (the recent asian tsunami for example, or the 16 yr old shooting people in MN), then I am less likely to believe that he'll help my family any more than he does anyone else.

You're going to think I'm nuts but this stuff has NOTHING to do with God and everything to do with human nature, free will and of course Satan.

Jessek
03-23-2005, 01:19 PM
Church is just a form of therapy for many that don't know how else to deal with their issues. By handing it over to God they are free from it. Fine with me, whatever works for people. Church also provides a social outlet for many, that otherwise would have none, which I also think is great. I just wish church goers didn't act like they are special and non church goers are less than. We are all human trying to figure out what life is all about and not all of us choose to believe in the biblical story.

I have learned after many conversations with believers, their core values are the same as mine: Be good to your fellow man, do the right thing, take care of your family and friends and living ethically. That is what matters to me, not whether their is a belief in some all mighty being. I have seen many people that claim "they walk with god" only to live an unfulfilled and some what tormented life. The bottom line is we have to help ourselves, nobody is going to miraculously, change our lives for us, not even God.

ixthus
03-23-2005, 02:23 PM
Church is just a form of therapy for many that don't know how else to deal with their issues.
Nooooo....that's what shrinks are for. And don't get me started on those guys... :rolleyes:

By handing it over to God they are free from it.We don't hand anything to anybody, we just receive added strength to deal with our "issues".


Church also provides a social outlet for many, that otherwise would have none, which I also think is great.Maybe for some but that's not the norm. The social aspect of a "church" is vital but if that's the only reason someone is there they have totally missed the boat.

I just wish church goers didn't act like they are special First, being a believer is not about "going to church". Second, we are special. Having said that, no "believer" should ever make you feel that you're less than.

We are all human trying to figure out what life is all about Believers know exactly what life is all about.


I have seen many people that claim "they walk with god" only to live an unfulfilled and some what tormented life. Not true believers then. Not saying that believers don't have problems, we just don't feel unfulfilled or tormented.



The bottom line is we have to help ourselves, nobody is going to miraculously, change our lives for us, not even God. And this is where the biggest misconception lies because He can, He has, He does and He will!

Beau7
03-23-2005, 03:00 PM
Just the fact that every thought was disputed, line for line, says to me its her way or the highway.
There is no room for "whatever works for people".

I've met the right people to talk to, "true" believers who really know what it's all about. And I'm comfortable with letting them believe what they want, while I believe that I've grown away from those beliefs. And when they try to convert me, I ask them to not try to change who I am. I'm not a bad guy who "needs" their beliefs shoved down my throat. Some accept it. And others have left mad.

The asian tsunami had to do with Satan or human nature? I'm sorry, I thought it had to do with tectonic plates in the ocean shifting & kicking up a monster wave that killed thousands of innocent people. Had there been a God, I would have hoped that he could warn these innocent people somehow.

Your making the assumption that our lives as unbelievers would be profoundly better if we were believers. Yet you have no idea where I come from or how I've led my earlier life. My family was very devout in the church till I was in my 30s. My mother still is to this day. And my experiences have led me to believe the things I do now. The thought that if I'm leading a life where I'm good to others, successfull in my endeavors, and happy with my family is somehow unfullfilling or unsuccessfull is just crazy. Maybe your a better person because of your belief. And maybe someone else is strong enough that they can lead a very social, successfull & happy life despite the fact that they do or don't believe. So be it. That should be the end of it. But the thought that this person has to be converted to truly happy & good....... it's crazy in my book.

Man, it must be winter & I need to get out to ski........

André
03-23-2005, 04:08 PM
Welcome to the board Beau7 !
Totally agree with you but made myself swear a lontime ago not to post about that subject here.
Lots of others more importants discussions here!
Check it out !
Where are you from?

ixthus
03-23-2005, 04:22 PM
There's no such thing as my way, it's His way.
I'm not trying to convert, or annnoy, anybody, just posting what I believe and enjoying a friendly dicussion (I thought).
I don't get upset when somebody tries to paint us as a bunch of pathetic loosers, I just give them the facts about who we are.

If you're comfortable with what others believe, then why are you getting so defensive? Why is it OK for you and others to post their opinions and not me? Why are you taking my words as me trying to "convert" others?

And, why are you putting words in my mouth? I never once said that to be happy you had to believe. People achieve "happiness" and "fulfillment" on this earth in many different ways. What I do believe there is that there is only one way to get to heaven.

Why is it harder to blame Satan than it is to blame God when something bad happens? Tectonic plates or Satan, either way, all I know is that it wasn't God's fault and who knows, maybe He did try to warn people, didn't most wildlife survive because they sought a safe place to be when it hit? I don't have all the answers, but God wants us to be happy, and He would never want people to suffer horrible deaths. We'll have all the answers when we die.

Hey Professor - does "Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People?" have anything to say about natural disasters?

Memo
03-23-2005, 04:41 PM
http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/images/icons/icon10.gif .

Professor
03-23-2005, 05:15 PM
Hey Professor - does "Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People?" have anything to say about natural disasters?
Sure. He tries to answer one of the most common objections to the Christian Faith "if God created the universe, and is still in control of it, then Why does he allow suffering and injustice?" It is worth a read!

Beau7
03-23-2005, 05:16 PM
Good points, Memo. A typical arguement will be that those are unique circumstances. But recent events have proven this is not the case. My own experience was with the infamous Overlake Christian Church fiasco...... I believe the old pastor is still doing time from that.
Thanks Andre', I'm in Washington state, and it's probably due for me to duck out of this one too.
No harm intended, Ixthus. My animosity on this comes from personal experience. Recently my wife is being forced to tolerate a person who firmly believes that we are not living our lives to the fullest. Yet, if you take the religion difference out of the picture & compare his family & ours, we are far better shape..... no obesity, quarls with our neighbors, or other issues that he deals with daily. I can understand why he might need to rely on a higher power to get him thru his issues, but to continually push his beliefs on her is just not right. Recently she went to HR to ask that he be told not to bring his religion to the work place. His church decided to build a new profit center near our home so I'm sure we'll see more of him out of work.

Cloaked
03-23-2005, 05:32 PM
I make a point to keep clear of this type of discussions or debates. I have two points to make then I will go back to my cave and hide.

Point one: Please explain to me how or why god will allow a priest, pastor or minister (what ever you want to call the symbol) to molest/abuse innocent kids in his/her house of refuge and pray. Please don’t use the exception rule because one case is one too many to be allowed. Not to mention the ones settled out of court at $X.

Point two: Why do I have to give X% of my income to pry to my savior? Is it because my $ is covering the court costs?

Just curious……:popcorn:With all due respect.. you just don't get it. The answers to these questions lie within the reason that Christ died for all of us, believers and non-believers as well.. I really feel that your points of question are weak but here is an opportunity....

God doesn't allow things to happen. God gives us all opportunities of destiny and choices through his blessings and good graces. It's up to each individual to make choices and commit actions (good or bad) within the guidelines of (my belief in) Christianity.

Question #1 is just that. God didn't (or doesn't) allow anything. Those priest chose to do what they did and will face the consequences as such. They may go to Hell or find foregivness from Christ, but in any manner, it will be their choice through their actions. There is no correct answer to your question.

Question #2 - The reason lies within the Bible. You are secluding and fragmenting a long misread and misunderstood myth of an excuse to avoid the acceptance of Christ, the man whom gave his perfect life for you to be able to make these very choices we are discussing.

This world is not about you or me or anyone else in the world. It's about what we (all of us) will do for God in our (my) chosen quest of eternal life within God's chosen family. His choices are based on your choices....
It's all good my friend... Open your mind and your heart and make your choices based on what you want to do for God.

And like yourself, this is the very first time I have posted in a manner of speaking on the topic, but this is a minor but significant duty of what I have chosen to do for God... I planted a seed. I hope to see it grow... :toast:

:twocents:

powdrhound73
03-23-2005, 06:54 PM
Woah what an intelligent discussion

I wonder if in doing the survey whether the question in each of these instances was "Do you attend Church" and if so would the results have been the same and I suspect so if the question posed was do you have religeous beleifs or something a bit more encompassing than just do you attend church.
Would this have given similar results with the Jewish faith, Hindus Buddhists, Muslims etc in America. food for thought

as there seem to be very intelligent people on this thread and it relates as a whole to the way of life that people choose to lead I would like to know why it is that in the good old US of A you don't appear to be intelligent enough to embrace gun control. how many murders, high school kids getting killed will it take before you think perhaps Canada, New Zealand , Australia etc. have got it right

This may be too off topic and if so feel free to ignore it
but from someone who sits here shaking his head everytime something in the US hits the headlines that screams gun control I'd like to know your thoughts as Americans :(

Imagine growing up in a society where you don't have to lock your doors or worry about your children getting killed going to Highschool
I did and still do

Ric
03-23-2005, 07:09 PM
Woah what an intelligent discussion

I wonder if in doing the survey whether the question in each of these instances was "Do you attend Church" and if so would the results have been the same and I suspect so if the question posed was do you have religeous beleifs or something a bit more encompassing than just do you attend church.
Would this have given similar results with the Jewish faith, Hindus Buddhists, Muslims etc in America. food for thought

as there seem to be very intelligent people on this thread and it relates as a whole to the way of life that people choose to lead I would like to know why it is that in the good old US of A you don't appear to be intelligent enough to embrace gun control. how many murders, high school kids getting killed will it take before you think perhaps Canada, New Zealand , Australia etc. have got it right

This may be too off topic and if so feel free to ignore it
but from someone who sits here shaking his head everytime something in the US hits the headlines that screams gun control I'd like to know your thoughts as Americans :(

Imagine growing up in a society where you don't have to lock your doors or worry about your children getting killed going to Highschool
I did and still do
Hey powderhound. What kinda boat do you have and what do you ski? Same Question for you Beau and Jessek?

86PowerSlot190MC
03-23-2005, 07:24 PM
Sorry WAY too deep for me!!!!! :eek:

Holtrodj
03-23-2005, 08:35 PM
From an academic perspective - I think it's fairly obvious that the stats presented in the first post of this tread represent correlation relationships and not causal relationships - Meaning that the fact that a person goes to church does not CAUSE the results, but that the type of person who tends to attend church is also the type of person who these things hold true for for many different reasons.

Vern Swieringa
03-24-2005, 12:22 AM
I guess it's time for a pastor to chime in. My heart breaks wherever I see injustices, but especially in the church. And there is no denying it, it's there too. The question is often asked, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" I wonder why "Good people do bad things?" And who of us reading this thread, no matter how good we are, can't remember doing something bad? Unless, we are decieving ourselves, we all can remember some bad things we have done. Now because we do bad things, does that prove there is no God? No, it just proves that we are not as good as we could be or as theologians put it, we are"sinners,"every single one of us.

Now let me get to the point! "Why does God allow us to do bad things?" And the answer is that He created human beings in His image, with a free will. Without a free will, we would be mere puppets, simply toys, where God would dictate our every move. With a free will, we have the capacity to choose to love God or reject Him. And the Bible tells us we all have rejected Him. That explains why good people do bad things. In reality we all fall short, some worse than others, but we all fail. Except for One, Jesus Christ.

God sent His Son not only to show us how we ought to live, but also to pay the penalty for the bad things we do. That's what this Friday is all about. The good news is that God accepted His Son's sacrfice on our behalf and raised from the dead on Easter Sunday. And in so doing God credits Jesus' life of righteousness to all who would believe in Him.

So then our being right with God has nothing to do with how good we are. Instead,it has everything to do with how good His Son lived and when we believe that Jesus did it for us, we become right with God. So don't be decieved. We can never earn our own salvation, no matter how good we might be. It's only through faith in God's Son.

I believe this with all my heart and have given my life over to this message. I still struggle with sin myself, and I hate it, but I find rest and peace in these words, "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

powdrhound73
03-24-2005, 01:52 AM
05 x2 I wakeboard in the North Island of New Zealand

quincyfirefighter
03-24-2005, 02:21 AM
I appreciate your thoughts on the subject & in my experience those that believe these ideas will think I'm nuts.
My wife & I have been married for several years & have a great life together. We are good natured people & lead a good life.
We both believe that there is/was "something" way back when the earth & man was created but neither of us feel the need to worship an all powerful being. And we certainly don't feel the need to contribute to a profit center for someone else's benefit to somehow validate our belief.
After many discussions with people of various faiths, we have been told that we are leading our lives in an empty or unfullfilling way. This is far from the case. We have each other & our families. We own a home in a fantastic neighborhood & enjoy our summers skiing behind our Mastercraft.
We are of the belief that together we are strong enough that we don't feel the need to hang our hats on any all powerful being, much less a worship group that is basically just a business profit center. There may very well be a god & an afterlife. But I'm more concerned with the here & now. And when this "God" allows innocent lives to be destroyed (the recent asian tsunami for example, or the 16 yr old shooting people in MN), then I am less likely to believe that he'll help my family any more than he does anyone else.
Anyway, we'll see just how "big" this group is when they read this. Take care & we'll ski ya someday.
A-Man. :) I Don't think I have to go to Chruch to beleve. DO ON TO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD WANT DONE TO YOU!! :worthy:

sizzler
03-24-2005, 02:42 AM
05 x2 I wakeboard in the North Island of New Zealand
I'LL SEE YOU IN JULY FOR THE LIONS TOUR....

H20skeefreek
03-24-2005, 07:37 AM
....................

gene dobies
03-24-2005, 08:02 AM
I guess it's time for a pastor to chime in. My heart breaks wherever I see injustices, but especially in the church. And there is no denying it, it's there too. The question is often asked, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" I wonder why "Good people do bad things?" And who of us reading this thread, no matter how good we are, can't remember doing something bad? Unless, we are decieving ourselves, we all can remember some bad things we have done. Now because we do bad things, does that prove there is no God? No, it just proves that we are not as good as we could be or as theologians put it, we are"sinners,"every single one of us.

Now let me get to the point! "Why does God allow us to do bad things?" And the answer is that He created human beings in His image, with a free will. Without a free will, we would be mere puppets, simply toys, where God would dictate our every move. With a free will, we have the capacity to choose to love God or reject Him. And the Bible tells us we all have rejected Him. That explains why good people do bad things. In reality we all fall short, some worse than others, but we all fail. Except for One, Jesus Christ.

God sent His Son not only to show us how we ought to live, but also to pay the penalty for the bad things we do. That's what this Friday is all about. The good news is that God accepted His Son's sacrfice on our behalf and raised from the dead on Easter Sunday. And in so doing God credits Jesus' life of righteousness to all who would believe in Him.

So then our being right with God has nothing to do with how good we are. Instead,it has everything to do with how good His Son lived and when we believe that Jesus did it for us, we become right with God. So don't be decieved. We can never earn our own salvation, no matter how good we might be. It's only through faith in God's Son.

I believe this with all my heart and have given my life over to this message. I still struggle with sin myself, and I hate it, but I find rest and peace in these words, "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
I wish I could find the words and put them together as nice as you Vern. It breaks my heart when people say why did God let this happen to people (like the Tsunami), how could he.. I believe their is a reason for everything and am sure it is far beyond my ability to figure it out. The same people that can't wait to blame God or fault are never there to give praise for all the good things they receive and see in their lives. God Bless you Vern and all your family on this coming Easter. And God Bless all on this board and their families and keep you all safe.

Ric
03-24-2005, 09:33 AM
05 x2 I wakeboard in the North Island of New Zealand
Curious as to the onslaught of newbies when ixthus revived the post? Skeptical on how many of you are true skiers or just lurkers looking for trouble. Especially the butthair guy.

Beau7
03-24-2005, 12:49 PM
Sorry, 209 Sammy Duvall, here. I visit the group fairly often but had only registered recently.

powdrhound73
03-24-2005, 02:59 PM
I'LL SEE YOU IN JULY FOR THE LIONS TOUR....
now that is definitely something to look foward too I'll have some tissues for ya :toast:

Ric: If your not convinced on my cred. have a look on wakeworld.com, wakeboarder.com, wake.co.nz, wake.com.au

I will start a new topic for the gun control question.

I too don't believe that you need to go to church to be a believer, in fact I subscribe to the teachings of the Gospel of Thomas saying
Jesus said: "Split wood, I am there. Lift up a rock, you will find me there."
and
a phrase attributed to Stephen in Acts 7:48:
"the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands."

"The Kingdom of God is inside/within you (and all about you), not in buildings/mansions of wood and stone. (When I am gone) Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift the/a stone and you will find me."

I also beleive that he said
"If your leaders say to you 'Look! The Kingdom is in the heavens!" Then the birds will be there before you are. If they say that the Kingdom is in the sea, then the fish will be there before you are. Rather, the Kingdom is within you and it is outside of you."

mbeach
03-24-2005, 03:24 PM
amen!!! great post

Vern Swieringa
03-24-2005, 04:38 PM
Hebrews 10:23 "Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching."

1 Cor. 12:12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

The church is the body of Jesus Christ. God never intended for us to go it alone.

Ephesians 3:15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

I share these truths in a spirit of love. The true church is a bunch of forgiven sinners, who really do need each other. Call it a cruch or whatever you will. But if it is the truth, it's one truth I wouldn't want to miss :o

ixthus
03-24-2005, 04:44 PM
"Going to church" should never be about a building.

"I'm writing...so you'll know how to live in the family of God. That family is the church" 1 Timothy 3:14-15

Fellowship is a very important aspect of being a Christian:

"All the believers met together constantly and shared everything with each other." Acts 2:44

"Let us not give up the habit of meeting together. Instead, let us encourage one another..." Hebrews 10:25


I understand people's reluctance to attend church. The main reasons why people don't attend is because they feel unwelcomed, they feel the church (profit center ;) ) just wants their money or beacuse it's boring. We've attended churches that have all three things. The church I was going to before my current one asked for money every single Sunday! Our current church doesn't pass a collection plate and they never ever ask for money.

If one of the above is one of the reasons you don't attend church, don't give up and keep looking! It can be frustrating and discouraging but you'll know when you find the right one and you'll be glad you did.


powdrhound73 good luck with the gun control thread, I'll check it out. And if you don't mind making it public, where are you from that you don't have to worry about guns?

captkidd
03-24-2005, 04:52 PM
Very nice words Mrs. Ixthus, Vern, and Gene. I agree whole-heartedly. Funny how God gets the blame when bad things happen, but Mother Nature, Father Time, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and good luck tend to get the credit when good things happen.

"Why do bad things happen to good people?" The same reason that bad things happen to bad people. God is no respecter of persons (wish I could remember the Scripture reference); simply being "good" (which is a very relative term) or being a believer is not a free pass to "Have a Long and Trouble-free Life". If it were, people would be lining up to "Get God" just to avoid the troubles and problems that everyone else experiences.

As far as priests and pastors and others who have abused children, who have commited adultery, who bilk their followers out of tons of money, etc., they are just humans who have made really bad decisions and used their positions to hurt others. As someone said, God gives us all the freedom to make our own choices, right or wrong. It's not His fault when we choose to do wrong.

I can certainly understand the feelings that have been expressed by those who have been offended by believers who were trying to convert them, or who acted as though they were better than the unbelievers. Jesus never tried to cram salvation down anyone's throats, and no one else should either. Most of those who are trying to convert others are doing so for the "right" reasons (because they care), but may be using the wrong means (guilt, coercion, fear, etc.). Who was it that said, "I would become a Christian if I didn't know so many of them."? Sad but true.

I guess that if this life were all that I had to worry about, then I would live differently than I do. I wouldn't worry about giving to my church so we could help others (I know that you can do that without the church, but a lot of people don't); I would sleep later on Sunday mornings; I wouldn't worry about teaching my son who God is and how to pray; but I'd sure be missing out on a lot of things (I call them blessings) that mean so much to me now.

I'll say this and I'll shut up: Either us believers are right and there is an afterlife and a Heaven, or everyone else is right and we're all going to be worm food. If we're wrong, we'll never know the difference. If the others are wrong, well, they will certainly know. It seems like much too big of a risk to take, but that's why God gives us the freedom to choose.

At least we can all agree on which boat to own.

NeilM
03-24-2005, 04:57 PM
At least we can all agree on which boat to own.


...almost.... :D

powdrhound73
03-24-2005, 08:02 PM
"
powdrhound73 good luck with the gun control thread, I'll check it out. And if you don't mind making it public, where are you from that you don't have to worry about guns?


New Zealand

MasterMason
05-10-2005, 02:30 AM
I am reading the book mentioned right now. It is an interesting read, and is definately designed to make you think.

Ron Grover
05-10-2005, 09:16 AM
I drove by a church once on the way to the lake. Does that count? That's about as close as I want to be.

Vern Swieringa
05-10-2005, 10:46 AM
It's not the building that counts. It's Who made the lake. ;) Those who love the Lake Maker meet in the building to :worthy: Him!

stevo137
05-10-2005, 06:47 PM
I once was "found" and now I'm lost.
I'm not sure if I want to be "found" again.

H20skeefreek
05-11-2005, 07:42 AM
It's not the building that counts. It's Who made the lake. ;) Those who love the Lake Maker meet in the building to :worthy: Him!


As a believer myself, I'm just playing the role of the devil's advocate here: What if the lake is a man made lake?

Vern Swieringa
05-11-2005, 08:06 AM
Deut. 8:17-18 "You may say to yourself, 'My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth [Lake] for me.' But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth [a Lake],
The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (Dt 8:17-18). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

captkidd
05-17-2005, 11:07 AM
It might be a man-made lake, but it won't be man-made water in it :D

loeweb
05-17-2005, 04:35 PM
just t ostir the pot a little. I don't beleive in basing my whole life and belief system on a bunch of events that I personally have not witnessed. I'm not saying that there isn't a higher power, but for me if there was something, I think I would have seen it by now. Again not to sound rude or anything, but my life is going great, and I don't think I need to go to a building and see a bunch of people who that, if I wanted to talk to, I would talk to or make time for any day of the week. Be it a complete stranger or a good friend. I just don't see the need at this point in my life. I figure that if I'm going to be up early on Sunday and the sun is shining and the wind is low, there is no way in hell I'm going to church to pray for good weather, good family, and good health when I already have these things and I got them without praying. Like I said I'm just trying t ostir the kettle and not p1ss anyone off, but if I did, you can go to churh for me and pray for my forgiveness if you think that is what I need! :twocents:

Vern Swieringa
05-17-2005, 05:16 PM
Loeweb,

No offense taken! I think it was Blaise Pascal who once said something like this. If Christianity is false and yet I believe, I have nothing to lose but everything to gain. On the other hand, if Christinaity is true and I don't believe, I have everything to lose. I personally, don't think chosing Christianty, because of a bet is the way God intended. Instead, He sent His one and only Son, so that we might have a personal relationship with Him through His Son.

I don't doubt things are going great for you, without a faith in God. But that is not what being a Christian is all about. In fact, I know many Christians who really struggle with health issues, money issues, and realtionship issues. The Christianty portrayed on TV which promises wealth and health is bogus. God never promised believers those things if they only have enough faith.

Instead, God promises to walk with us through the good times and the bad times. I'm glad your life, at present, is going great and I hope you continue to enjoy your it. But I know that it could be even better if you had a personal relationship with your Creator, who desires to have a realtionship with you. Only He can satisfy our longing for a purpose full life.