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Knoxes
10-20-2004, 10:12 AM
That conservatives are still supporting Bush. He's abandoned the principles of the GOP - fiscal responsibility, small federal government, personal liberties and hands off foreign policy. He seems to have found some ground that neither party would whole-heartedly endorse.

Tax cuts and massive deficits, grossly inflated federal government, the Patriot Act and taking on a humanitarian effort halfway across the world? I don't get it. This is not your father's GOP.

Stritt
10-20-2004, 10:57 AM
Don't be suprised, we live in a land of free speech and democracy our society is a better place with opinions that can be heard. With that said, I do believe we have reached a whole new level of "negativity".

Now, more upsetting to me than your point is people who are not able to vote properly and then are exploited by the media and political groups for their incompetence. Throughout life if I make a mistake, I pay the price. It erks me to see people playing the role of "victims". Somewhere we loss common sense........

Ric
10-20-2004, 11:11 AM
ya knoxes, right on! now I'm gonna go vote for Kerry!!!!!!! ???????

Knoxes
10-20-2004, 11:26 AM
ya knoxes, right on! now I'm gonna go vote for Kerry!!!!!!! ???????

Well, I didn't exactly suggest that, but I really am curious about why old school GOPers continue to support him. I realize there are other issues, but are they sufficient for you guys to overlook some obvious and significant departures from the principles that have guided the GOP for decades?

Mag_Red
10-20-2004, 11:33 AM
Maybe cause as far as Bush sways from the original GOP pronciples, he ain't no where as bad as Kerry.

Knoxes
10-20-2004, 11:45 AM
Maybe cause as far as Bush sways from the original GOP pronciples, he ain't no where as bad as Kerry.

Can you clarify that, Red? What do you mean by "no where as bad"?

Ric
10-20-2004, 12:05 PM
Well, I didn't exactly suggest that, but I really am curious about why old school GOPers continue to support him. I realize there are other issues, but are they sufficient for you guys to overlook some obvious and significant departures from the principles that have guided the GOP for decades?
I wondered the same thing about clinton voters but it didnt seem to stop you guys from re-electing him, did it?

Knoxes
10-20-2004, 12:26 PM
I wondered the same thing about clinton voters but it didnt seem to stop you guys from re-electing him, did it?

Specifically, where did Clinton deviate from the Democratic party policy?

And I don't recall ever saying I voted for Clinton.

Ric
10-20-2004, 12:36 PM
when you referred to "you guys" I thought it only appropriate to return the favor. Dont worry lot's of people won't admit they voted for clinton but he won twice somehow.
I dont have time for all the non-democratic policy moves clinton made, but can you spell NAFTA?

Stritt
10-20-2004, 01:09 PM
Question. If you owned a business that could supply the same product with substancially less labor resource dollars and increase your margins but required that you move the business to Mexico. What would stop you?

With the Clinton NAFTA agreement, your conscience would be the only stop. Big business does not have a conscience,they have boardrooms and shareholders, all of which are in it for the $$'s.

I think its ironic that the unions, who's membership is primarily in manufacturing positions, support the party that opened the door to a mass exodus of manufacturing jobs........Seems that if they don't get smart, in the near future there "stock" in the political areana is going to be a small asset.

I'm going to stop now.

Knoxes
10-20-2004, 01:13 PM
That's a pretty good point. Nobody knows whether to take responsibility or blame someone for that one. (NAFTA)

Now, are you saying you're willing to overlook his first term activities as mentioned above?

edited to clarify the response.

BriEOD
10-20-2004, 02:10 PM
Clinton...what a piece of work. He tried to promote the economy at the expense of the military. He appointed a Secretary of State that isn't even a true American citizen. Fianlly, their are hundreds of stories about how poorly he and his spouse treated Secret Serivce agents, White House, staff etc. And we still continue to pay for their high society ways of life. :noface:

River Rat
10-20-2004, 04:45 PM
NAFTA…..
I don’t pay attention to politics as much as I should, but I do know NAFTA sucks. I work for a large chemical company and all I hear is how they are building new plants in China, Middle Eastern country’s and South America were the labor is cheap :noface: and all the money they are making. It’s good for the stock holder but that little bit of stock I own won’t feed my family when they move all our jobs overseas. When the jobs are gone WHO is going to buy there products!! I have seen our company go from over 5000 people to less than 3000. some was needed but alot wasn't. :rant: Ok I’ll get off my soap box now :rant: and I’ll beat you to the punch…… ya…ya…. I need to pay more attention to politics :D

Leec
10-20-2004, 05:05 PM
Well here is what I see,which was forecast, we would become an exporter of technology, not an exporter of goods. Now with that being said, how come I can buy all silk dress pants from Dillards that listed for $65,made in China, for $15 on clearance at Dillards? Now the latest are pants for $5.65 on sale at Dillards made in China. Yes they have an elastic wasteband, but what do you expect for $5.65? Also almost all recalls are from products made in China! Hello,
Feds:uglyhamme are you checking this crap before it come into this country?:cry:

:smile:

Knoxes
10-20-2004, 05:06 PM
I guess based on the number of views but the lack of responses, that most people here are actually voting against Kerry. Is this right?

Leec
10-20-2004, 05:12 PM
:worthy: YES!:toast: :woohoo:


:smile:

Knoxes
10-20-2004, 05:51 PM
I suspect that this happens a great deal more than most people are willing to admit and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

If I may, Lee, why against Kerry? And would you consider voting Libertarian since you're voting against someone?

Leec
10-20-2004, 06:22 PM
Knoxes I would not vote Libertarian because I honestly think I would be throwing my vote down the proverbial toilet!

There are so many reasons why I wouldn't vote for Kerry . Mainly because of his attitude of Wrong war, Wrong Place, Wrong Time!
How does this man think he can lead the US armed forces with that attitude? How does he dare,after his stint with Hanoi Jane think he could ever be President of the strongest country on Earth! His plan is too pull out as soon as he can! Leave then to fend for themselves and that is what he helped do in Vietnam. Why is why it fell.
As for his getting the Allies to fall in line and help us? The ones who are not there now have also publicly stated they will not support us even if Kerry is elected President.
As for his health plan for all Americans? That would break the American Tax payer, figures like $7,000 a year it would cost per family which is what we the Tax payers are paying for Congress. I have been unemployed for 3 &1/2 years and but for the grace of God I now have a job, not beneath me either, but I even applied at Walmart, Home Depot, etc. I am 60 so look out if you get unemployed at an older age it is rough. I have all but liquidated my guitars and Lionel trains just to keep my car, boat and food on the table.
Thank God I had them to sell on eBay.
More Liberal than Ted Kennedy! Now that is saying something. In 20 years he has only got 5 bills passed!
The list goes on. His current wife is in the top ten richest people in America with 14 Billion dollars. Only in America could someone commit manslaughter and stay in office and the people of Taxachussetts vote him in again and again. Yes Ted Kennedy drove off a bridge, drunk and left his passenger Mary Jo Kopechney(SP) to drown. Now we all know if we did that we would be in prison not in congress!!!!! But I am getting off Kerry but it is just the whole Democrat lifestyle. from Clinton getting BJ's in the White House, to semen stains on the dumb girls dress, to Kennedy drunkeness, too Kerrys flip flop and promise them everything and if he gets in he will break the financial backs of America working man wwith his tax and spend politics.
i have ranted and raved too much I am sure. No I don't think President Bush is perfect, neither does Swartznegger(SP?),but he is still a Republican.
Now here's the kicker. If God new of us before we were even conceived,then what does that say about abortion? Hmnnnnnnnnn
:smile:
.

Knoxes
10-20-2004, 06:33 PM
Beautiful response, Lee. Thanks. This election cycle has been a ride. People are passionate about politics this year. It's exciting to see.

I bet there are quite a few people here that feel the same way you do. One further question for you folks. If you're voting against Kerry, isn't a Libertarian vote the same as any other?

stevo137
10-20-2004, 06:34 PM
Absolutely RIGHT ON LEEC!
Thanks for spending the time to post the TRUTH!
It makes it easy for me say....... I agree with Lee!
And while Clinton was getting serviced in the oval office, the terrorists were planning their attacks!

lakes Rick
10-20-2004, 07:05 PM
Beautiful response, Lee. Thanks. This election cycle has been a ride. People are passionate about politics this year. It's exciting to see.

I bet there are quite a few people here that feel the same way you do. One further question for you folks. If you're voting against Kerry, isn't a Libertarian vote the same as any other?

NO it isnt. We need to defeat Kerry, not just vote against him..

Good try Knoxes, although we tried to do the same here in Oregon with the Nader ticket.. Good ole Democratic Secretary of State, Bill Bradbury, got him kicked off the ballot, knowing he could possibly help oregon electorates go to Bush this year... Too bad Mr. Bradbury is up for election this year.. I even voted for a women to get that Hack kicked out....

River Rat
10-20-2004, 07:25 PM
Beautiful response, Lee. Thanks. This election cycle has been a ride. People are passionate about politics this year. It's exciting to see.

I bet there are quite a few people here that feel the same way you do. One further question for you folks. If you're voting against Kerry, isn't a Libertarian vote the same as any other?


Absolutely not A few years back there was a little oil man from Texas that ran. A lot of people believed in him, unfortunately most were republicans and I think this is what cost Bush his second term. I voted my conscience and afterward I felt stupid. Even though I did what I thought was right. I won’t even consider it this time.
Bush all the way
And further more I will not vote for a man who betrays his fellow solders in front of the world for political gain and then calls them his band of brothers for more political gain. I feel he will tell you whatever you want to hear, I wouldn’t let this man feed off the bottom of my lake. If I had one!!
Just my :twocents:
Isn't this Country great!! Some places I could get shot for talking like that!!

BriEOD
10-20-2004, 09:23 PM
Lee very well said, thanks for sharing I enjoyed reading the post.

River Rat I was thinking the same thing as I red Rick's post about old Ross Peraut (spelling?).

My wife and I are both military and neither of us know any colleague that is even considering voting for Kerry. I think the man has brought great discredit upon the American military. I don't think Bush is perfect but I think he tries to do the right thing and I'm more then satisfied. My wife and I vote absentee ballot because we are Fla. residents so our 2 "Bush" votes are already in the mail.

Also, on another gee wiz voting note, I heard on a talk radio station today that over the past 60 years an organization conducts a mock vote for 1 million elementary school kids. Over the 60 years only twice has the real election outcome differed from the mock election. This year Bush received like 58% of the vote while Kerry received 40%. Also, the number 1 write in...mom.

Knoxes
10-21-2004, 12:15 AM
The thing I liked about Perot is that people voted on his policy - not personality. And I don't think those votes were cast against other candidates. I wouldn't call that a wasted ballot at all. Win or lose isn't the issue. It's that folks took the time and effort to examine the platform and went to the polls and said "I like what this man stands for". That's honorable and respectable. I don't see that in this election - on either side.

Dems are voting against Bush and obviously, GOPers are doing the same. I know it's always been this way to a certain extent, but its just so apparent this time around.

I think if folks really examined what they thought was important, a lot of votes would change. Probably many more would abstain entirely.

As President, Kerry's an unknown - and unpredictable. We can make all kinds of assumptions about how his administration would work once he's in office, but they're still just assumptions. He hasn't shown enough consistency to make any accurate estimations. And yet, Democrats are still gonna pull the ticket.

Bush has a track record as president. It's established. Assumptions aren't necessary. And the record is inconsistent with typical conservative issues. And yet, Republicans are still gonna pull the ticket. That's what I don't understand. If they were minor issues, I could see shrugging it off, but these are Republican standby's.

I think an interesting exercise would be to make a priority list of issues. I'll start another thread with my priorites and see if I can match a candidate.

rem_p
10-21-2004, 12:28 AM
in my ethics class earlier this week, our teacher...who is a "card carrying" liberterian made us watch a video on the liberterian presidential debate....I never really have been exposed much to this party but i was drawn toward them for some reason.....their methods of thinking and their beliefs are so much like mine that it kinda shocked me...one of these canidates is Michael Badnarik...he is the man i would vote for....but since he has little chance of winning i believe im still going to vote for Bush.....i feel like the real contest will be between kerry and bush and i sure as hell dont wont Kerry running the country...my personal opinion of the fella is he aint got enough sense to pour piss out of a boot with the instructions wrote on the heel.... but thats my 2 cents

Knoxes
10-21-2004, 12:37 AM
rem - wouldn't it be ethical to vote your conscience? Support the party that represents you. It is not a wasted vote!

<soapbox-up> The beauty of this country is that you can voice a minority opinion - you can support a minority party - you can effect change - you can see your party succeed. The Libertarian party could be the future of the US. I'm not saying it will or should be, but it definitely won't be, if people who believe in it don't support it. If you believe in it, get behind it, man! Don't shrug your shoulders and walk away. <soapbox-down>

jpattigr
10-21-2004, 01:16 AM
NAFTA- North American Free Trade Agreement was signed first by President Reagan and Canadian Prime Minster Mulroney in 1988. Later Mexico and Chile along with a few small island nations in carribean were brought in as partial partners.

The two largest trading nations in the world are Canada and USA with over 1 billion worth of trade a day happening. Millions of jobs on both sides of the border were created. Go back and check the unemployment rate in 88 and compare to today in both nations and we are stronger. The 12 years after signing NAFTA were the longest recession free period in both our nations history and have led to lower interest rates and historically low unemployment.

Do not blame NAFTA for job loses to China, India or other third world nations as they do not belong to this pact. Nafta was created to protect jobs here in North America and protect our joint high standards of living.

China has a fixed currceny and a very protective goverment and will not allow many imports. They want you to buy their cheap goods but will not buy our preminum goods as massive duties are in place. If we forced China to float the Yuan ($) and drop the duties we as NA could compete as there is much more then just cheap labour at play.

Protectionism is a major dampner on any economy and open and free trade is a win win for all but all must play.

BriEOD
10-21-2004, 07:58 AM
Maybe it is not wasted in principle but here in the real world the only 2 people with a legitimate shot of Presidency is Bush and Kerry. So, why waste a perfectly good vote on someone who has not shot.

rem - wouldn't it be ethical to vote your conscience? Support the party that represents you. It is not a wasted vote!

<soapbox-up> The beauty of this country is that you can voice a minority opinion - you can support a minority party - you can effect change - you can see your party succeed. The Libertarian party could be the future of the US. I'm not saying it will or should be, but it definitely won't be, if people who believe in it don't support it. If you believe in it, get behind it, man! Don't shrug your shoulders and walk away. <soapbox-down>

mgurley
10-21-2004, 08:27 AM
I also do not think that Bush is the ideal presidential canidate, but then again I am pretty sure that such a thing does not exist. I am just an old country boy from Alabama but I believe in President Bush. He is a strong, decisive man who makes decisions on what he beleives in his heart is best for the country, not what is popular among partison America. I think W. has strong family values and is sincerly concerned with what is best for me and my family, not what is popular among his or any other party. Kerry has been doing what makes others happy or what is popular at the time for years I think he could learn from the President in some ways. Perhaps if he would stop looking around to see what others would have him do and look into his heart and make his own decisions based on what he feels is best for this country I could take him seriously. But it is hard for me to follow a follower that swerves radically between popular opinion.

I do not hate democrats or even John Kerry for that matter but I do know a leader when I see one. I think if everyone would take an honest non-partisan look at the canidates you too could see that there is only one leader in this race and that is President Bush. John Kerry has been following all of his life do you really think he will be any different as President. I choose Bush.

OhioProstar
10-21-2004, 09:08 AM
Either way you cut it Kerry wants to get into my pocket and yours like he has already promised (big, fat, dollar sign, PERIOD)

One thing to think of that you never hear anything about is the senate and congress is controlled by Republicans and most likely will stay that way. If, God-forbid, Kerry is elected there is very little chance anything will get through congress after his tone on the stump. That will leave him a lame duck president for four years.

mgurley
10-21-2004, 09:18 AM
Very good point Ohio.

east tx skier
10-21-2004, 09:48 AM
I'm only saying anything so I can get the picture to come up. Knoxes, I asked this same question on another thread. You are correct ... "not your father's GOP."

Ric
10-21-2004, 10:16 AM
Boys this aint our father's world either........
Have you forgotten?
Knoxes, you like to stir the pot don't you? hahahhahah

Here's my quick list
My family's Security (read military, homeland security etc)
Taxes
Regulations
Strong Leadership (reaganesque)
Economy
I honestly want a real man running my country. (Dems haven't offered one in a while my friend.)

what I dont want
World View
Tax & spend liberalism
a white house who holds our military in contempt

As far as third party politics, they are a great exercise, but get real man! I want one thing and that is to WIN. Idealism won't win. Win with ideas, win a majority, lead with your heart and your gut. I liken the idealism of a third party vote cast to a protectionist outlook. It won't work. We are the strongest economy in the world. Remember when there were world superpower(s)? Now there is one. One world superpower with right minded people at the helm. We're not out blasting aspirin factories, we're killing terrorists and their sponsors.

Have you forgotten?

Woops, one more thing: My vote will be FOR my candidate, not a bullheaded vote against another.

east tx skier
10-21-2004, 10:39 AM
/slams door to bunker. cranks up generator. cracks beer. turns on the t.v. and waits for the Astros game to come on. Go ASTROS!

Ric
10-21-2004, 11:00 AM
/slams door to bunker. cranks up generator. cracks beer. turns on the t.v. and waits for the Astros game to come on. Go ASTROS!
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa :toast:

east tx skier
10-21-2004, 11:10 AM
So do you think they made the right move not starting Roger C. last night (without hindsight being 20/20)? I think probably the right way to go. You've got a game to play with and you get a 42 year old pitcher another day of rest. Of course, you also give St. Louis some momentum with that win. Good game last night nonetheless.

Knoxes
10-21-2004, 11:10 AM
Ric - would you mind posting that list over in the other thread. I think you have some interesting ideas that should foster some further discussion.

Ric
10-21-2004, 11:24 AM
no knoxes I'm done with your game, I read the list and laughed. I'll let the others play.

Doug, I really really think it was the right thing to do, even in hindsight. A rested rocket for game 7 is almost a lock since we already know we CAN hit off these guys.
Hold on... Is that "please come to Boston" I hear playing in Houston?

Knoxes
10-21-2004, 11:31 AM
Game? I think you have some good ideas, but I'd like to get some clarification on a few. This isn't a game.

NeilM
10-21-2004, 02:21 PM
.:popcorn: .:popcorn: .:popcorn:


+1

Leec
10-25-2004, 05:00 PM
Finally I found the Kerry audio where I could post it!

http://web.syr.edu/~kmwilcox/files/...tecandidate.mp3 (http://web.syr.edu/~kmwilcox/files/...tecandidate.mp3):rant::popcorn::noface:


:smile:

sfitzgerald351
10-25-2004, 08:47 PM
Came across this while looking at one of the political party's website. It was a fun 'litmus' test for your political beliefs...


http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

Leec
10-26-2004, 02:43 AM
Oops I'm a full blown Libertarian! Who woulda thunk?:o


:smile:

Knoxes
10-26-2004, 09:42 AM
Centrist. No surprise there. At least not for me.

JimN
10-26-2004, 10:27 AM
Why is it that there aren't any candidates running who call themselves or register as Centrist? If there are less far Left and far Right out there, it would be logical to think that the middle ground would be the majority. Kind of like the middle income being the majority. And why is it that the lower income families and individuals are the ones who need the most help but it's the middle that Kerry wants to help? Maybe because the middle has more voters?

One of these days, someone is going to start talking, and keep talking, about the fact that the longer people are dependant on the government, the less likely they are of advancing their position. As long as they're dependant on the Gov't, the more likely the Gov't is of passing their own preferred legislation, which perpetuates the cycle. We wouldn't want people to be able to do/get/have what they want and not depend on the Gov't for their basic needs now, would we?

Ric
10-26-2004, 10:44 AM
kerry told perky katie that he wanted to give a middle class tax cut and I choked.
Remember clinton promising that? then mid term he says "I've tried, I've worked hard, harder than anything I've worked on in my life and I just can't give you the middle class tax cut"

who buys it now? Bush 41 said no new taxes..... Clinton said I promise a middle class tax cut..... Kerry is now promising it. Who do you believe?

No far left or far right candidates will win, I believe it was said earlier that party affiliation means $. It's my belief that clinton & kerry must move more in order to get to the center than Bush41, Dole or W (That being said, 41 lost 2nd term, dole lost & this one is a horse race.)
Who do you believe? Who's comprimising more to be who "the middle" wants to lead them?

JimN
10-26-2004, 01:13 PM
Bush 41 lost partially because he raised taxes after his campaign promise not to. And because Clinton is a really good campaigner.

MarkP
10-26-2004, 01:23 PM
I was waiting for “W” to say “READ MY LIPS” as he talked about the draft in the one debate..:popcorn:

Knoxes
10-26-2004, 02:20 PM
I think I'd rather have a president that repealed a campaign promise as opposed to one that followed through despite better judgement. Atleast in respect to taxes, which are not high on my priority list. I'm not uncomfortable with the amount I pay.

Ric
10-26-2004, 03:54 PM
I'll take a leader who is a real man rather than one who must be something he's not in order to get my vote(that's called a phony).

east tx skier
10-26-2004, 04:38 PM
Oops I'm a full blown Libertarian! Who woulda thunk?:o


:smile:


That was the apparent result for me and three "Republicans" in my family when we took that quiz earlier this year.

Knoxes
10-26-2004, 04:51 PM
That was the apparent result for me and three "Republicans" in my family when we took that quiz earlier this year.

Well, it is the farm team for the GOP.

Knoxes
10-26-2004, 04:53 PM
I'll take a leader who is a real man rather than one who must be something he's not in order to get my vote(that's called a phony).

I wonder what your qualifications are to be a "real man"? (not what they are not, but what they are). What does that mean, Ric?

BriEOD
10-26-2004, 05:01 PM
What ever happened to the good old days when we talked about MCs, skiing, beer, and women. This is one of the three taboo topics (religion, polotics, and family) people just ought to leave alone. Especially on this kind of site... :twocents:

Knoxes
10-26-2004, 05:05 PM
What ever happened to the good old days when we talked about MCs, skiing, beer, and women. This is one of the three taboo topics (religion, polotics, and family) people just ought to leave alone. Especially on this kind of site... :twocents:

Tell you what. Take me out on that big mofo boat and a couple of passes at Trophey and I'll never say another word.

JimN
10-26-2004, 05:06 PM
I thought religion and politics were the topics to avoid in a bar. Of course, we have spent a good deal of time talking about beer, etc, so I guess this qualifies, eh?

Leec
10-26-2004, 05:37 PM
I wonder what your qualifications are to be a "real man"? (not what they are not, but what they are). What does that mean, Ric?
He means not a "GIRLY MAN":uglyhamme don't ya Ric!!!!:D
:smile: :smile:

Leec
10-26-2004, 05:39 PM
I thought religion and politics were the topics to avoid in a bar. Of course, we have spent a good deal of time talking about beer, etc, so I guess this qualifies, eh?
Yes Jim N it only comes around once every four years.:D :toast: :popcorn:

:smile:

Ric
10-26-2004, 06:01 PM
He means not a "GIRLY MAN":uglyhamme don't ya Ric!!!!:D
:smile: :smile:
I'll keep it simple knoxes.... Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Think about it.

Knoxes
10-26-2004, 06:04 PM
I'll keep it simple knoxes.... Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Think about it.

edited for bad behavior.