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greeneng
06-11-2006, 03:24 PM
1995 PS190 with the LT-1.
Winterized last fall and changed the oil and filter. I don't remember if I ran it after that.
Getting it out for the summer. Put the drain plugs back in, changed the impeller, checked the tran fluid, put the fake a lake on it and started it up. Watched the guages until the oil pressure came up, then went to look at the engine, then in about 20 seconds back to the guages. The oil pressure was very low, and I shut it down right away. Now, I have a lot of oil in the bilge. I can't find where it came from, but the outside of the oil filter is very slimy.
Could I have not seated it enough and the oil is leaking around the outside? Could it be the wrong filter, and it won't seat? Any hints, help or clues here will be greatly appreciated. The boat was in the garage all winter, with light bulbs under the cover, and a thermometer in there. The temp never got below 40 F.
I am not going to put more oil into it and start it up until I try to understand this some more.

Jim.

TMCNo1
06-11-2006, 03:31 PM
Remove the oil filter and check to see if the rubber seal from the filter from last falls oil change remained stuck to the block. If it was then the new filter would not seat properly and would leak real bad. Go ahead and install a brand new filter and add about 1/2 qt oil to make up for what was removed with the filter you just took off. After you run it some more, check the oil level and add if necessary.

bigmac
06-11-2006, 03:32 PM
The oil pressure was very low, and I shut it down right away. Now, I have a lot of oil in the bilge. I can't find where it came from, but the outside of the oil filter is very slimy.
Could I have not seated it enough and the oil is leaking around the outside? Could it be the wrong filter, and it won't seat?

I vote yes. Wrong size filter, filter too tight, filter not tight enough. And, I don't know about your particular engine, but if your oil filter requires a gasket to be applied, a common cause of leaking oil filters is accidentally leaving the old gasket on the filter seat and applying a new filter/gasket over it.

greeneng
06-11-2006, 03:48 PM
Both of you: Thank you. Those were quick responses and I will try that right now. You will hear one way or another.

Jim.

TMCNo1
06-11-2006, 04:43 PM
Most all oil filters today come with the bubber gasket glued to the filter @ the factory. Last time I changed oil in my wife's Explorer, I removed the old filter, dropped it in the oil drain pan, gasket side down to drain and wiped the block where the oil filter seats and somehow did not notice the gasket from the old filter was stuck to the block. Installed new filter with a light film of oil on the gasket, drained the oil pan, put in 5 qts and cranked it up and oil poured from the filter area. Thought I knew what happened, removed the new filter and there was 2 gaskets and the old gasket from the old filter actually tore the gasket loose from the new filter. Cleaned everything up got a second new filter installed as normal with a light coat of oil on the gasket and all is fine. Topped off the oil to compensate for the lost oil and was done. Stuff happens, Duh Huh, that will never happen again!

greeneng
06-11-2006, 05:28 PM
The jury is still out.
I took the filter off, carefully. I tried to keep it in a baggie to contain the oil. But, because it was slick with oil, I dropped it in the bilge. Picked it up and put it aside. Then I looked for a gasket still in the seat. None there. Then I looked for two gaskets on the filter. None there, not even one. Found it in the bilge under the baggie. Either it came off the filter when I dropped it today, or it came off the filter before I installed it last fall. Seems to be keeping pressure now, and the filter is not getting slimy, but I have a bilge full of oil. Just like last May, it overheats and I can't run it very long to see if the oil level goes down. Just boiled the upper thermostat, and it seemed to work. Next, boil the lower thermostat and see what happens. More as the plot unfolds.
Jim

bigmac
06-11-2006, 05:55 PM
The jury is still out.
I took the filter off, carefully. I tried to keep it in a baggie to contain the oil. But, because it was slick with oil, I dropped it in the bilge. Picked it up and put it aside. Then I looked for a gasket still in the seat. None there. Then I looked for two gaskets on the filter. None there, not even one. Found it in the bilge under the baggie. Either it came off the filter when I dropped it today, or it came off the filter before I installed it last fall. Seems to be keeping pressure now, and the filter is not getting slimy, but I have a bilge full of oil. Just like last May, it overheats and I can't run it very long to see if the oil level goes down. Just boiled the upper thermostat, and it seemed to work. Next, boil the lower thermostat and see what happens. More as the plot unfolds.
Jim


If I had a lot of oil in the bilge, the way I'd clean it is to leave the plug in and put several gallons of water in it from the hose, then add a generous amount of some kind of detergent. I'd then take my boat for a little drive with all that water/detergent sloshing around in the bilge, driving to the nearest oil-recycling drop-off. Remove plug, empty bilge into big buckets and dispose of effluent.

As to thermostats, I've never bothered to test 'em. If I'm going to all the work to pull them out, at $10 each I'm gonna replace the suckers.

Brent
06-11-2006, 06:09 PM
Try running it without the thermostat to see if it still over heats , you may have a impeller or water pump problem.

BTW . When I purchased my boat , they guy before me left a extra seal on the filter & I was not as lucky as you (Rebuilt the engine).

"Boat are holes in the water that you pour money into " That was a placard my uncle had on his wall ( he owned boats for over 40 years ).

greeneng
06-11-2006, 07:50 PM
One of the tasks this morning was to replace the impeller. It is working fine. I took both thermostats out and boiled them, and they are OK. There is something about this boat which I still do not understand about getting it to initially cool properly after it has been completely drained. I never used to drain the block for the winter. I just warmed it up and sucked about five gallons of 50:50 antifreeze into it, and left it. Then I was convinced, mainly by Jimn, to just drain the block. I did this after the 04 season and had the same problem last spring. I also had this problem in the middle of the season a couple of years ago when I had to replace the circulating pump. Right now, I just can't run it long enough to be sure I am not still losing oil somewhere. Have to get it to cool first. Any suggestions?
By the way, in both cases, it just mysteriously started to cool properly. Two years ago, just after a friend spilled a beer on the block. I have not tried blessing it with beer yet this year.

Jim G.

greeneng
06-14-2006, 11:17 AM
OK. So the oil loss may have been my fault for losing the filter gasket before I installed it last fall. But I now have the latest edition of the recurring problem: overheating. Two years ago, when I had to replace the circulating pump, it would overheat until, finally, mysteriously, it started cooling normally, and then ran great the rest of the season.
Last spring, after de-winterizing, (I had drained the block for the winter) it would overheat. Then, finally, mysterilusly, it started to work correctly and was great for the entire season.
This spring, after de-winterizing, the exact same things. There seems to be an issue with getting water where it needs to go. Don't say impeller: I just changed it. Maybe there is an air trap; maybe something else. The last two times, once it starts to work right, it is fine for the duration until I open the system again.
1995 PS190 with LT-1, and the two thermostats.
Any ideas, anyone?

Jim G.

erkoehler
06-14-2006, 11:25 AM
What kind of impellar are you running? There was recently a thread on here about a certain brand of impellar not providing enough cooling at idle.

bigmac
06-14-2006, 12:04 PM
OK. So the oil loss may have been my fault for losing the filter gasket before I installed it last fall. But I now have the latest edition of the recurring problem: overheating. Two years ago, when I had to replace the circulating pump, it would overheat until, finally, mysteriously, it started cooling normally, and then ran great the rest of the season.
Last spring, after de-winterizing, (I had drained the block for the winter) it would overheat. Then, finally, mysterilusly, it started to work correctly and was great for the entire season.
This spring, after de-winterizing, the exact same things. There seems to be an issue with getting water where it needs to go. Don't say impeller: I just changed it. Maybe there is an air trap; maybe something else. The last two times, once it starts to work right, it is fine for the duration until I open the system again.
1995 PS190 with LT-1, and the two thermostats.
Any ideas, anyone?

Jim G.

You don't mention it, but I assume you've checked the transmission cooler to make sure it's not plugged with weeds or remnants of an old impeller ?

Also, Erk's question is a good one. The Globe impellers are made of an elastomer called niprene. Their claimed advantage is the ability to run dry for 15 minutes. Unfortunately, the general concensus is that they don't provide adequate cooling at lower RPMs. If you are using a standard neoprene impeller, then never mind...

Again, assuming a good impeller and no outflow blockages, I'd be thinking thermostat. IMHO, the performance of a thermostat in a pan of boiling water doesn't necessarily reflect performance in the engine - I've been there/done that, and in the interest of completely eliminating one potential source of overheat, I'd just replace them. Over the years, I have come to believe that intermittent overheat problems that can't be tracked down are thermostat until proven otherwise. IMHO.

The other possibility is that Fake-a-Lake just isn't giving enough water flow. I chased an overheat on an I/O I used to have only to ultimately find that the hose/muffs on the drive intake just wouldn't do it, and even though it overheated in the driveway, it worked perfectly in the water. If you can't drop the boat in the lake to test, then I'd try hooking up a garden hose directly to the raw water intake hose. You can make a fitting for that for about $10 in parts from the hardware store.

http://mccollister.info/fitting.jpg

Kevin 89MC
06-14-2006, 01:01 PM
I agree with Bigmac, I've chased cooling issues on cars enough to know that t-stats are often the problem even when they look/test fine. I put a new one in once, took the car out for a drive, only to see the needle pass right on by the normal spot. Brand new t-stat was stuck closed. I'd also take it off the fake a lake - many on here have reported problems using them. I'd do either the garden hose attachment, or dunk the pickup hose in a 5 gallon bucket filled with water, supplied with running water from the hose.
Good luck.

greeneng
06-14-2006, 01:37 PM
Both other times, when this happened, I changed the thermostats. That was not an immediate answer, or it would have been the first thing I did this time. I did change one, again, this time.
I used the bucket and hose trick, not the fake-a-lake. I was sucking lots of water, and, when I removed the outlet hose from the raw water pump, it was gushing.
I still believe that there is an air lock somewhere in the cooling system which prevents water from going past it until it breaks down. I just don't know where. I am not able to get the manifold plugs out to vent the system there. Any thoughts on this? Remember, in the past, once it starts cooling properly it works fine until I have to open the system again. BTW, not a closed system, a normal LT-1 raw water cooled system.

Jim G.

bigmac
06-14-2006, 03:27 PM
Both other times, when this happened, I changed the thermostats. That was not an immediate answer, or it would have been the first thing I did this time. I did change one, again, this time.
I used the bucket and hose trick, not the fake-a-lake. I was sucking lots of water, and, when I removed the outlet hose from the raw water pump, it was gushing.
I still believe that there is an air lock somewhere in the cooling system which prevents water from going past it until it breaks down. I just don't know where. I am not able to get the manifold plugs out to vent the system there. Any thoughts on this? Remember, in the past, once it starts cooling properly it works fine until I have to open the system again. BTW, not a closed system, a normal LT-1 raw water cooled system.

Jim G.

I got nothin', then. I've heard of an air lock on the intake side of the RW pump causing failure to prime, with resultant loss of the impeller, but that's on big boats with a siphon break. I've never heard of an air lock blocking engine coolant circulation on a typical trailer boat. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I'd be far more inclined to suspect a mechanical blockage from some kind of ingested FOD.

greeneng
06-14-2006, 03:54 PM
That would make a lot of sense, if the problem did not recur, every time ONLY after the system was opened, and then cure itself at random. And then it is fine until I drain it again. This just can't be coincidental, and a blockage does not occur, twice, while the boat sits on the trailer over the winter. There has to be something more.

Jim G.

Kevin 89MC
06-14-2006, 05:15 PM
Wow, tough one. I tend to agree that it does sound like air is trapped. I know on one of my cars, it takes forever (many cycles of heating & cooling) to get all the air out after a radiator flush. But as you know fresh water cooling boats are a different beast. It still might be some kind of physical blockage (or deformity in casting or hose) somewhere that for some reason causes water to cavitate and trap an air bubble, which eventually works itself out. From automotive experience, coolant temps only tell part of the story. A few ideas: get one of those surface temperature sensing guns (uses infrared I think). You might be able to locate specific hot spots, and concentrate on those. You may also think about installing an oil temp sensor, possibly a better way of gauging true engine temp.
I know you can have a car's engine & radiator "power flushed", I wonder if something similar could be done to a boat? Maybe just try to flush all your hoses & block passages in the block with a garden hose?
The manifold plugs are not likely the cause, but who knows? I'd work on getting them off anyways, for better flushing in the fall.
Good luck!

greeneng
06-18-2006, 12:33 PM
I hauled it to the lake and dunked it. I have about a mile from the launch to the dock. I had a safety boat meet me at the launch. Less than half way home it was so hot I shut it off and had my safety boat tow me there.
I took off the raw water outlet and it was gushing nicely. Put it back on and still overheating.
I took out the upper thermostat and filled with water from the top. Put it back in and still overheating.
I took out the upper thermostat and left it out. Still overheating.
I took out the lower thermostat and left it out. The needle was going up when I goosed it with a little more RPM and the needle dropped like a rock. Cooling nicely now, but too cold. Put the bottom thermostat back in. The needle started up above where it should be and then dropped again. Put the upper thermostat back in. The needle overshot, and then dropped to normal, where it has stayed. Everything normal now and running great. Will cross 1000 hours this summer.

Now, back to the original problem. No oil leak, and, of course, no loss of pressure, with the gasket on the filter. I still have to believe I lost if off the filter during the change last fall, and put the filter on without it. Never ran it again until I started it up last weekend. Real good thing I was watching the guages then.

Thanks to everyone for suggestions.
I still can't believe I am the only one with this recurring issue.

Jim

TMCNo1
06-18-2006, 12:43 PM
The gaskets on the filters are glued on when they are manufactured. Could be you just got a filter with a bad gasket.
I think, just as a precaution change out both thermostats you have installed in there now with another pair of new ones and see what happens. I would be worth a try, especially if it starts to overheat again!

greeneng
06-18-2006, 03:02 PM
I did just buy another set of thermostats, but I did change them last Sunday while on the hose. The LT-1 upper (160 Deg) thermostat is special, with a vent hole drilled through it. I do know the system will not work with a 160 D. thermostat without the hole.

Remember, once I get past this, two times now, and I bet this is the third, it will be fine for the season until the next time I drain the block.

Jim

JimN
06-18-2006, 03:20 PM
I don't know what brand of filters you're using but I would think about changing to one that doesn't lose the gasket so easily. When I was working on boats, I used WIX, Pennsoil and AC filters and unless the oil hadn't been changed in more than two years, don't remember one with the gasket falling off.

Have you checked the oil cooler for weeds? That should be checked every time the motor is started, according to the manual. You may have killed an impeller in the past and lost parts of the vanes. They get stuck in places where they shouldn't and overheating can be the result. OTOH, you have bleeder lines from the heads to the exhaust manifolds and they can become clogged, too. Remove them and check the fittings and lines to make sure they're clear of any blockage.

Personally, I would stop using the Fake-A-Lake and run it from a large bucket with a hose atached to the raw water pump or oil cooler. That way, you can see how well it's drawing water. The way you're doing it, there may be a slight leak around the plunger cup and if it sucks air, it won't cool effectively. Also, when the boat bounces from someone in it moving around, the way the cup seats on the hull can change very easily.

Thrall
06-19-2006, 12:59 PM
The bleeder lines form the heads were an after the fact fix on the LT-1's, weren't they JimN? Thought I remembered reading that initially the LT-1 Indmar motors didn't have the hole in the tstat or the bleeder lines.
Greeneng, does your boat have the bleeders?

Cris209
06-21-2006, 11:47 AM
First time poster, regular reader. Thx to all of you for the good info on this site. Thought the following may be helpful.

I also filled my bilge with oil on the first trip out this year, unfortunate but lesson learned with no engine damage. My '01 209 is stored indoors throughout the winter and I, for the first time, decided to do my own winterization last November...my dealer has done this work in previous years........my '01 owners manual recommends a PH-25 filter for the LTR, which I installed. After loosing oil pressure in first 1/2 hour out last weekend, I realized that it was coming from the filter area and hauled it out and headed home. I pulled the filter an did not have any issues with the previous gasket remaining. I contacted the local dealer who informed me that I should be using a Delco PF-454 filter. When I compared the 2 filters, the gasket location on the 454 is at the perimeter of the filter circumference, unlike the PH-25 that is inset around 3/4". Once installing the new filter and cleaning up a heck of a mess, I have no leaks and am in good shape........be careful with that owners manual recommendation.

greeneng
06-21-2006, 10:24 PM
Thanks to all.
First, Cris209, really glad that neither of us had any damage.

Second, JimN: You may recall this issue from two years ago when the fix, finally, was "poured beer on it." In other words, I did not know then what the problem really was, and I still don't. I only know that, two years ago, last year and again this year, once it was solved it stayed solved.
I always check the tranny cooler first thing: it is the first thing to plug. But, if I was cooling right when I took it out, and cooling right on the fake-a-lake when I winterized, why not the next start up after? I did go, this year, to a bucket (read a little further back) just to be sure. And, although I did not write it, I did take the vent hoses off and waited until they pumped out water. None of this helped until I did the final steps, which, incidentally, I had not tried before on either occasion.

JimN: No better gasket gluing will prevent operator screw-ups. I believe that I filled the filter with oil (Mobil 1 10-30, which I have always used, but that is for another thread) put it in a baggie to capture the oil, and then dropped it before I got it on. If I did not notice then that the gasket was gone, shame on me. Mea Culpa! Just good for me that I noticed the oil pressure disappeared before any damage.

Now, without any other interventions, it is working properly. If there are blockages, they are no more constricting than three years ago.

So, if you have an LT-1, or, probably an LTR, although I have no owner experience with the LTR, and you are overheating: first thing take the thermostats out.

Anyone else have any explanations?

Jim

greeneng
10-01-2006, 07:43 PM
Just like before, once I got it cooling correctly, it was fine for the season. I did pass 1000 hours in early September. I just winterized yesterday. I have to remember to take the thermostats out first thing next season.