PDA

View Full Version : Engine Damage due to Gas


jeffrpod
05-26-2006, 07:20 PM
You know how rumors get started - is there any truth to this?

A nieghbor told me he heard from a a local boat repair shop that due to the 10% Ethonyl in gas these days it's causing the fuel lines in boats to clog up. They stated you should add dry gas every time you fill-up.

Has anyone heard of this?

BrianM
05-26-2006, 07:43 PM
That is a load of BS.

Footin
05-26-2006, 08:18 PM
That is a load of BS.

Be honest Brian...tell us what you really think. hehehehe

Hoosier Bob
05-26-2006, 08:19 PM
My 98 Trans AM had a warning to stay away from it as it supposedly degraded the injecters some how. I am sure anyone with an LS 350 will have a similar warning. :eek:

JimN
05-26-2006, 08:21 PM
The guy who recommends using dry gas and not 10% ethanol is FOS. Google dry gas and see why.

"Dry gas is basically alcohol, ethanol to be specific. The ethanol mixes with the water and keeps it from freezing when the temperature drops and makes it burnable. So yes, it does serve a very useful function. The engine doesn't matter. It could be a little three cylinder Geo Metro or the V-16 Cadillac. Condensation will still form in the gas tank and you will need the dry gas to keep it from freezing so it can be burned.

The only place where dry gas would not help is in areas that require a 10% ethanol/gasoline blend which, in essence, puts in one gallon of dry gas in every ten gallons of gasoline."

This took me about 10 seconds to find.

Alcohol can degrade rubber parts and is corrosive to aluminum in high concentration or if it just sits. Since it mixes with water, steel fuel lines can rust from sitting with a gas/water mix. There is also some steel in injectors but newer ones are using more stainless.

Hoosier Bob
05-26-2006, 08:26 PM
This is a little scary!
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/story/6266161p-6172320c.html

JimN
05-26-2006, 08:36 PM
I would like to know how a clogged filter could allow crud to get to the injectors. Hmmm.

Fiberglass tanks? That's just stoopid! Why would they even use something that reacts as easily with so many solvents as fiberglass when polyethylene is a lot more durable. flexible, and inert?

This reinforces my advice to take fuel samples whenever a motor runs badly and the other obvious causes have been explored (although the fuel sample could save a lot of time, effort and money). If the vehicle has been at rest for any length of time, the crud is at the bottom of the tank and will be the first thing sent to the motor, or in the case of a fuel sample, the container.

PendO
05-26-2006, 09:16 PM
This is a little scary!
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/story/6266161p-6172320c.html

*********thanks HB, here are a few quotes


Brian Lefebvre, an assistant professor of chemical engineering at Rowan University, said ethanol's chemical characteristics raise another concern for boaters.

“Ethanol can actually suck the moisture out of the air, so if there's any leaks or pressure problems with the fuel lines, it's going to mix water into the fuel,” he said.

Seaworthy magazine cautioned boaters last fall that ethanol could break down the fiberglass, creating a black sludge that gums up valves and intake manifolds, destroying the boat's motor.

Engine Nut
05-26-2006, 09:32 PM
I have had experience with Indmar for the last 8 years and before that with another marine engine manufacturer for 15 years. Since the time that leaded fuel was no longer available we (Indmar and the other manufacturer) have specified that fuel containing 10% or less etahnol is acceptable. Ethanol does have an affinity to attract water. That is why we have stated for several years that when you winterize, if your fuel does not contain alcohol, stabilize the fuel and keep the tank full. If the fuel contains alcohol, you should run the tank as dry as possible and stabilize any remaining fuel. Indmar engines will not tolerate the new E85 ethanol fuel.

Engine Nut

JimN
05-26-2006, 09:44 PM
I would like to see data on how much moisture can be drawn out of the air, based on the volume of alcohol. If it could attract 10% of it's own weight, that would mean just more than 1% of the fuel's weight, by volume, is water since alcohol is heavier than gasoline and the specific gravity of water is 1 and there would be less than 2 pounds of water in 30 gallons of gas. That's not a lot but when the water and alcohol mix, it still sinks below the gas and the water/alcohol phase creates a broader layer in the tank. Not good if the gas has been sitting, the tank is less than full and there have been repeated temperature inversions. Once the alcohol becomes saturated, there will be water on the bottom, alcohol/water above and gas on top. Still best to avoid E10 but in some places, it's hard, if not impossible to do.

JimN
05-26-2006, 09:48 PM
Engine Nut- has Indmar done any work with alternative fuels or is the power output by volume not efficient enough? What effect does the dyno show when the fuel changes to E10 from straight gasoline?

Hoosier Bob
05-26-2006, 09:55 PM
That's it! I am going to propane! Add a couple of burners and I will be set. I have always heard (GM autos) it was best to stay away from it. That being said if they or I am wrong it costs nothing if they or I am right who on here is fixing my engine? So far I have had no injecter problems from my Holley 4010 and do not expect any! ;)

Engine Nut
05-26-2006, 09:59 PM
Engine Nut- has Indmar done any work with alternative fuels or is the power output by volume not efficient enough? What effect does the dyno show when the fuel changes to E10 from straight gasoline?

There is not a significant change in the dyno data with 10 % ethanol fuel. We have not done a lot of testing with alternative fuels. All of our resources have been consumed by our Catalyst project which will be coming out on all 2007 Model Year Premium 5.7L engines (MCX and it's cousins).

Engine Nut

roddydog
05-26-2006, 10:33 PM
My 98 Trans AM had a warning to stay away from it as it supposedly degraded the injecters some how. I am sure anyone with an LS 350 will have a similar warning. :eek:
Of course you have a '98 Trans AM!!!!! :firejump:

PendO
05-26-2006, 10:50 PM
There is not a significant change in the dyno data with 10 % ethanol fuel. We have not done a lot of testing with alternative fuels. All of our resources have been consumed by our Catalyst project which will be coming out on all 2007 Model Year Premium 5.7L engines (MCX and it's cousins).

Engine Nut

**** guess I should have read the other thread first thx.

Hoosier Bob
05-26-2006, 11:10 PM
And a Mullet! :D I had a 98 T/A! Before that a 91! Hard habit to break.Of course you have a '98 Trans AM!!!!! :firejump:

JimN
05-26-2006, 11:12 PM
EngineNut- What about O2 sensor? When I was in Indiana for MC training the last time ('2000), Alan had a motor on one of his dynos with an O2 sensor and said it was working pretty well.

Engine Nut
05-27-2006, 02:31 AM
EngineNut- What about O2 sensor? When I was in Indiana for MC training the last time ('2000), Alan had a motor on one of his dynos with an O2 sensor and said it was working pretty well.
The catalyst motors will run with O2 sensors. The problem with o2 sensors has been to get them to live in a wet exhaust. We have resolved that problem with out new ETX-CAT exhaust manifolds. The O2 sensor is in front of the catalyst and the water doesn't mix with the exhaust till after the catalyst.

Engine Nut

JimN
05-27-2006, 10:43 AM
So, now that they'll have O2 sensor and convertors, are they going to add the IAT or go to a MAF sensor? I would imaging the EPA and CARB would like that.

Engine Nut
05-27-2006, 01:00 PM
Currently there are no plans to add those sensors but who knows what the future may bring.

Engine Nut