PDA

View Full Version : Double bindings vs. single with RTP


shepherd
05-15-2006, 05:43 PM
Just curious, how many of you use double bindings and how many use the rear toe plate? I've always used a RTP and I'm not sure if I would like doubles on my new ski but it seems to be the way most people are going. I tried doubles years ago when I was first learning to slalom and didn't like it a bit back then. Now my skiing level is higher and I'm wondering should I try it?

east tx skier
05-15-2006, 05:47 PM
Once I got used to doubles I couldn't go back. Tried to ski a toe plate recently and it felt very strange. The stiffer the front wrap, the more dangerous it becomes to ski with a toe plate.

In a fall, both feet in is okay. Both feet out is okay. One foot in and one foot out is not good at all. With a toe plate, you'll always have that back foot come out in a fall. Just hope the front does as well. If you go with a toe plate, don't go too tight on that front boot.

skibrain
05-15-2006, 05:56 PM
I grew up using rear toe because with low-powered boats and a long drag it was the only way to get up. Switched to double boots about 12 years ago. I found I would occassionally get my rear heel out of place, slightly twisted, which would mess me up for a turn or two.

The rear boot prevents that and keeps my rear foot aligned. Double boots however make it about impossible to get into your ski with out a ski platform. But it can be done. It also makes it nearly impossible to do a step-off to barefoot...although that too can be done. :D

rodltg2
05-15-2006, 05:59 PM
wont catch me doing a step off on a $900 ski... thats what a crappy ski from a double set is for..

88 PS190
05-15-2006, 06:03 PM
crappier the better for a step off ski, would hate hate hate to loose any of the others, besides, w/ my rubber boots i need to grab the tip to pull my heals up and out.

erkoehler
05-15-2006, 06:05 PM
Usually barefoot, but I do have double animals on the HO Truth.

jmyers
05-15-2006, 07:24 PM
I always use double boots, I always feel like my back foot is going to slip out when I cut with the open boot! Plus I tend to jump on my ski, so I like both feet to stay on the ski when I land! :eek:

rodltg2
05-15-2006, 07:33 PM
I always use double boots, I always feel like my back foot is going to slip out when I cut with the open boot! Plus I tend to jump on my ski, so I like both feet to stay on the ski when I land! :eek:


i gotta see this....

88 PS190
05-15-2006, 07:59 PM
you've never jumped the wakes on your slalom before? normally mine are by accident, ie ski comes back and i loose edge before the wake, but if you give a little hop it works pretty well.

Life is Good!
05-15-2006, 08:02 PM
I have skied w/both set ups and dont think one is better than the other. Just a matter of preference. As a side note, Andy Mapple skis with a rear toe plate and not double boots. :worthy:

rodltg2
05-15-2006, 08:04 PM
you've never jumped the wakes on your slalom before? normally mine are by accident, ie ski comes back and i loose edge before the wake, but if you give a little hop it works pretty well.

yes, but like you never on purpose...

Brent
05-15-2006, 09:43 PM
Chris Parrish skis with double's. You are right though , it is a matter of preference . That explanation about not releasing out a boot with a toe plate seems a bit flawed to me. :noface: You are more likely to have both feet free with a single than a double , less is energy needed to release out of 1 than 2 boots (toe plate is not a boot). I know it is all theory. Just go with what is most comfortable for you. :toast:

Larryp
05-15-2006, 09:59 PM
yes, but like you never on purpose...
I believe this jumping wake thing on a ski is where Tony Finn got the idea for the skurfer.

shepherd
05-15-2006, 10:36 PM
If I bought a ski with double boots, how easy would it be to switch the rear boot out for a RTP if I don't like it? I guess it depends on brand of ski?

88 PS190
05-15-2006, 10:44 PM
with the release out of one vs. two. It takes alot more energy to release you simulaniously from two high wrap bindings particularly those like the approach or the lace up variety than it does w/ one. That being said, if you have X energy and its enough to release you from two, but is put straight into one of your ankles the ankle is going to give LONG before the foot has a chance to come up and out. Achilles damage or breaks result.

When you use two approach bindings or other highwrap style bindings the energy goes into both ankles, and this may disappate the effect to the level that neither foot get enough strain to be pulled out of the binding.

There is a reason HO recommends strongly against setting up a ski w/ only a front approach boot, your front ankle requires alot of strain to be pulled out of it. That strain distributed amongs two bindings causes the peak force to be mitigated.

An important and somewhat vague concept is that of the timing of the release. Ie. your foot has inertia, and the binding has static friction on your skin. At a certain point the force is going to hit, and then its a response from those two aspects that determines how quickly your foot comes out.

I spiral fractured my femur coming out of a plain highwrap, not even a tight one. But the force I'd built up was released so suddenly and violently that the bone shattered before my foot had a chance to be pulled out of the binding. Had I been in a double boot at that point i'd probably have just spun the ski over the surface of the water instead of my bone being loaded against the ski's leverage.

its really personal preference, but as most of the people you run into are not pro skiers safety is a real concern.

Parrish uses a double boot set up with dual wiley boots, they're good bindings but not extra stiff and a very safe setup.

Mapple at CTP used a hardshell front rigidly fixed to his ski, with a rtp in the back. His release mechanism is the ratchet straps being ripped out. This set up provides alot of control but very little safety.

Balance the equation however you see fit. But remember its a cost vs. benefit curve.

long post sorry. and rtps are easy to add.

east tx skier
05-16-2006, 10:27 AM
Usually barefoot, but I do have double animals on the HO Truth.

When did you pick up the Truth?

Kevin 89MC
05-16-2006, 10:54 AM
Wow, didn't know that Andy runs a hardshell w/RTP. That sounds like a ripped knee or hip just waiting to happen. Of course, he probably doesn't go out the front at the wake like I do! I run a RTP with an old highwrap front that I release out of pretty easily. I get launched out of both when the ski stops at the wake & I keep going. Last fall I did feel my back foot slip a bit on one wake cross, and ever since then I've been thinking of getting a double boot. I will probably get a setup that doesn't require too much energy to release - I'd rather still get launched out of them than go down with the ski if I catch the wake wrong. it's dangerous either way. I'll need to start practicing getting up with my rear foot in the ski. Ugh, I hate that!

east tx skier
05-16-2006, 11:00 AM
I've been using the HO Animal highwraps for the last two seasons. I don't cinch them down too tight and I've come ouf of them in an OTF fall almost every time (I can only think of 1 time both feet stayed in).

Upper Michigan Prostar190
05-16-2006, 11:23 AM
POLL POLICE PULL THE POLL OVER NOW!!!

http://childersburg.qscend.com/images/police_car10flashing%20lights.gif

(cough, cough) Uh.....excuse me sir, Did you forget something in your poll?? http://www.tsl-products.co.uk/p_images/tsl2007.jpg

Do you know why I stopped your poll here?? Lets hear your story son.....

shepherd
05-16-2006, 12:55 PM
(cough, cough) Uh.....excuse me sir, Did you forget something in your poll??
Do you know why I stopped your poll here?? Lets hear your story son.....

Uh, no, why officer? What did I forget???













Oh, I know! Option No. 4: The UMP option, double fur-lined arctic explorer boots!

jmyers
05-16-2006, 01:42 PM
i gotta see this....
I clear both wakes, and about 3 feet in the air! :eek: Landing is fun with the fins in the side! I stopped by the bar for a beer and a couple of wakeboarders said they have never seen someone jump that high on a ski! Just somehthing different when I get tired! :D

rodltg2
05-16-2006, 01:45 PM
like i said, i gotta see this..

east tx skier
05-16-2006, 02:58 PM
I clear both wakes, and about 3 feet in the air! :eek: Landing is fun with the fins in the side! I stopped by the bar for a beer and a couple of wakeboarders said they have never seen someone jump that high on a ski! Just somehthing different when I get tired! :D

I guy in our old ski club was running 28 off at 34 (he was about 63). At the end of each run as the boat was doing a turn around (lots of room - public lake), he'd pull off a nice wake jump and clear at least a foot or so off the water. 3 feet sounds really high.

6ballsisall
05-16-2006, 03:06 PM
I ski'd with a guy a few times at Soda Lakes in Colorado that after each pass would let go of the rope at speed, do a bunny hop and in the air do a 180 on his ski, land it (essentially skiing backwards) and into the water. The first time he did it was very cool and surprising.

jmyers
05-16-2006, 03:12 PM
I guy in our old ski club was running 28 off at 34 (he was about 63). At the end of each run as the boat was doing a turn around (lots of room - public lake), he'd pull off a nice wake jump and clear at least a foot or so off the water. 3 feet sounds really high.
It is true, when I jump I pull my legs all the way up! I have done it a long time, sometimes a little scary on the landing! I will try to dig up a picture!

east tx skier
05-16-2006, 03:15 PM
I ski'd with a guy a few times at Soda Lakes in Colorado that after each pass would let go of the rope at speed, do a bunny hop and in the air do a 180 on his ski, land it (essentially skiing backwards) and into the water. The first time he did it was very cool and surprising.

I think someone does that in the Drew Ross Shortline Video. They also get up backwards on a slalom and do a 180 when they're up.

shepherd
05-16-2006, 03:20 PM
I think someone does that in the Drew Ross Shortline Video. They also get up backwards on a slalom and do a 180 when they're up.

There was a guy on the river in MD where I skiied who used to do that. Show off :rolleyes:

jmyers
05-16-2006, 03:24 PM
There was a guy on the river in MD where I skiied who used to do that. Show off :rolleyes:
I have to make up for my slalom skiing somehow! ;)

rodltg2
05-16-2006, 03:55 PM
I ski'd with a guy a few times at Soda Lakes in Colorado that after each pass would let go of the rope at speed, do a bunny hop and in the air do a 180 on his ski, land it (essentially skiing backwards) and into the water. The first time he did it was very cool and surprising.

that always leads inot a funny crash. on that note, jeff, you should try this!!

jmyers
05-16-2006, 05:14 PM
that always leads inot a funny crash. on that note, jeff, you should try this!!
I will try it after a few beers! :banana:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
05-16-2006, 10:32 PM
The high court of Jrandol is now IN SESSSION!!!!!! JR, he admitted guilt of forgetting the UMP option. You already know how I feel about the crime, now you decide the time. :cool: BOOK EM DANO!!!! :headbang: Sentence him JR!!!!!

shepherd
05-16-2006, 11:34 PM
What's the difference between HO's Animal and Approach bindings? I like the idea of the "Superfeet orthotics" of the Animals... Or should I just buy some Wiley highwraps?

east tx skier
05-17-2006, 10:55 AM
The Animals are pretty much your typical rear lace up high wrap boots, but with orthotics in them. Hard rubber overlays soft rubber with rear laces.

The approach boots are stiffer (front lace), provide more ankle support, and pitch your heel forward a bit to improve position. They are sort of a middle ground between the animals and hard shell boots.

Wileys are a more traditional rubber boot. Very comfortable with good support. The trick wraps are a little higher and provide more ankle support, and are preferred by some skiers for that reason over the regular Wiley's boots.

/edit I'm using the word "rubber" loosely. Might be rubber over neoprene or some other combination. What I mean is that they're softer than the stiff molded overlays.

88 PS190
05-17-2006, 05:36 PM
The nice thing about the approach in comparison to the hardshells is how much closer to the ski your feet are, with hardshells there's the boot, the liner, and the plate between you and the ski and it causes elevation.

The bad thing, an approach is basically a non-release boot.

east tx skier
05-17-2006, 05:43 PM
I don't have first hand experience with that yet, but when I spoke to a friend of mine and asked him that very question, he said he had an out the front and both feet came out.

88 PS190
05-17-2006, 05:47 PM
Yea, they happen but its possible to cinch them down way tight.

Which some people do.

east tx skier
05-17-2006, 05:52 PM
That's what I figured. I've always erred on the side of keeping my boots a little loose for just that reason.

jraben8
05-17-2006, 05:59 PM
Mentally, I don't like having one in and one out at any time. I have to have either both in or both out.

Mi.mc
05-17-2006, 07:04 PM
you've never jumped the wakes on your slalom before? normally mine are by accident, ie ski comes back and i loose edge before the wake, but if you give a little hop it works pretty well.
before we got our mastercraft my main goal was to jump the wake... it's actually kinda fun..

rodltg2
05-17-2006, 07:46 PM
thats funny, my main goal is to keep it glued to the water..

Upper Michigan Prostar190
05-17-2006, 07:59 PM
Mentally, I don't like having one in and one out at any time. I have to have either both in or both out.
WOrd up to that! I learned that last year with an RTP. I had two falls where the ski hit me very lightly(luckily) in the head. That really motivated me to learn to deep start on one ski to transition to double boots. I had one come out of my Vengeance last year when I first got it, I had the boots loose. I didnt like it, so I cinch the buggers down tight now. The tight boots give me more support, and I have had some pretty aggressive falls, and both feet have stayed in. Maybe I am wrong to do that, but to me it feels safer. I dont like the concept of one or both feet coming out. The danger of twisting an ankle, and the danger of being hit by the ski, both of which I was lucky enough to not get seriously hurt by. I dunno, I just feel safer with both feet cinched in tight. :twocents: If my skill level ever progresses to the point where I really get good and get into a Monza or something else high end, I will look into those hard boots.

shepherd
05-26-2006, 10:50 AM
Well, I opted for the double boots (Wileys) on my new ski and I like it. I feel like I have more control over the ski and I'm forced to maintain better body position while skiiing (I think). I still have to get used to trying to put my feet into two boots and "hopping" off the swim platform.

jwchapman
05-26-2006, 11:03 AM
I learned to ski in college (Georgia Tech Ski Club/Team) and the only good skis were double boot. Seemed to work well the the trick they taught me for putting them on in the water was to put the the back one first. Then position the ski in the water like you are getting ready to start, take a deep breath and lean over and put the front foot in. Your head will go under but it is fairly easy to then put in the front foot. I fell a lot learning to ski the course (which I did that summer) and got a lot of practice. Still works today.

jraben8
05-26-2006, 12:44 PM
I have always put my back foot in first whether its on the platform or not. I don't think its nearly as awkward.

3event
05-26-2006, 02:23 PM
Broke an ankle good on single boot + RTP setup, never again. When only one stays in the ski can rotate on you. April Coble Eller agrees with this safety argument, see article in recent WaterSki mag. My :twocents:

88 PS190
05-26-2006, 02:36 PM
I don't own any dual boots that could be put on in the water w/o soap, lube, or other method, too tight.

rodltg2
05-26-2006, 03:14 PM
Well, I opted for the double boots (Wileys) on my new ski and I like it. I feel like I have more control over the ski and I'm forced to maintain better body position while skiiing (I think). I still have to get used to trying to put my feet into two boots and "hopping" off the swim platform.


you can also slide backwards off the deck too.