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oxmach
05-09-2006, 10:45 AM
I had the boat out for about 1/2 an hour running anywhere from just in gear to about 1/2 to 3/4 throttle.

All of a sudden it stumbled, surged and then stalled. I started it without difficulty, and it ran well fro 10 min or so and then did the same thing. After that it stalled two more times within about 5min as I was making my way back to the launch.

I spoke to my dealer who is quite good but a little over an hour away. The current thinking is to try to put some gas treatment in and give it a run. If it still acts up, I'm to take it in and have them look at it to see if it is throwing any codes etc.

This boat has about 270 hrs on it, and I suspect little maintenance. I picked it up last weekend so don't know the service history, but expect that it was winterized properly form my dealer.

Any thoughts on other items to check besides fuel?

Thanks.

JimN
05-09-2006, 10:51 AM
If you have a fuel pressure gauge, check that. If the gauge has a bleeder valve and a thin hose coming off of it, take a fuel sample. If it's cloudy and smells bad (not like fresh gas), it'll have to go. Hopefully, there's not much gas in the tank if you need to dispose of it. Otherwise, make sure the battery connections are clean and tight and look at the grounds on the back of the motor- make sure they're tight by doing a wiggle test on them.

oxmach
05-09-2006, 11:06 AM
No, I don't have a fuel pressure guage. I should have mentioned, when I first water tested the boat it had about 1/4 of a tank, and they topped it up when we got back to the dealer.
At this point, there is about 1/2 a tank in her. I thought it could be water as it would have been stored with 1/4 tank.

Oh, one other thing I noticed, after the first stall, the tach was moving a couple of hundred RPM back and forth, although you could not hear a change in the engine, or feel the surge.

Thanks,

MYMC
05-09-2006, 11:10 AM
Fuel filter is plugged and the pump will die next. Replace both.

oxmach
05-09-2006, 11:18 AM
Thanks Mike. The manual says to have dealer perform this due to pressure in the line. Is this a must? I hate to trailer it 2 hours if I don't have to.
Also, when you say both, I'm guessing this would be an inline and the screen on the pump?

Thanks again.

vogelm1
05-09-2006, 11:49 AM
oxmach - I have the same engine/year and just replaced my fuel filter...it's not too bad a job, just smelly. It's "dealer recommended" I'm sure due to safety issues working with gasoline. If you're OK with basic tools you shouldn't have any worries.

Obviously you'll want to be absolutely sure there is no chance of a spark nearby (trouble light hanging that could fall and break, whatever. Just always remember you're working with gas fumes and an open 'container' once the pump is temporarily out. The pump/filter are together and hang inside the fuel tank. If you're replacing the pump too, take off the two fuel lines and unplug the electrical connector. If not, you'll just have to take off the larger diameter return/vent line. To get the pump out, take off the circle of 12 or 14 allen head screws holding the pump into the top of the tank. The whole assembly comes out as a unit - the filter simply 'snaps' onto the bottom of the pump with tangs on each side. I used a small screw driver to carefully pry back the tangs on the old filter. A couple wiggles and it'll slide right off. There is a small 5 inch length of black tube that you'll need to take off the old filter and put on the new prior to re-installing. I re-used the round pump gasket, and grommets for the mounting screws, but next time I think I'll replace with new just to avoid potential leaks. Good luck!!

bigmac
05-09-2006, 12:10 PM
Classic for a dying fuel pump, IMHO.

oxmach
05-09-2006, 12:52 PM
Vogelm1, thanks for the how to, much appreciated. I'll give it some thought, but since it's all of a week old to me and the chance that it may infact be the pump, I might run it in and have them do the work. I'd hate to go the filter route only to have to run it in for the pump.

Thanks again.

MYMC
05-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Thanks Mike. The manual says to have dealer perform this due to pressure in the line. Is this a must? I hate to trailer it 2 hours if I don't have to.
Also, when you say both, I'm guessing this would be an inline and the screen on the pump?

Thanks again.
The dealer is reccomended due to the hazards involved with a boat and fuel spills. You need fuel line tools to seperate the lines from the pump. Also you need an inch/lbs torque wrench for the bolts securing the pump so that the gasket doesn't get crushed and leak...if you are comfortable with all this the actual job is not difficult.

When I say replace both I mean the filter and the pump. The pump may work now but the end is near...trust me when I tell you it has seen the light and is moving toward it.

Tom023
05-09-2006, 12:58 PM
Also you need an inch/lbs torque wrench for the bolts securing the pump so that the gasket doesn't get crushed and leak...
.

MYMC, what is spec for tightening the bolts?

jraben8
05-09-2006, 01:03 PM
How many hours are these pumps normally good for? The reason that I ask is that when I bought my '99 SS last year it only had 85 hours on it. I haven't had an issue yet but I'm beginning to wonder how long they normally last? I just don't want to get caught unprepared.

oxmach
05-09-2006, 01:18 PM
Mike, thanks for the guidance. No fule line tools, but do have the torque wrench....

Called my dealer and will be dropping it off and have asked them to check the pump. He seemed confident on how to diagnose with pressure test at various RPM's which I belive JimN has mentioned in other postings.

I don't like to second guess the guys at my dealership as they are very good, but it helps to have some background to ask the right questions or provide a more thorough explanation of the problem.

This is a great site, so much knowledge and experience, much appreciated.

MYMC
05-09-2006, 01:28 PM
How many hours are these pumps normally good for? The reason that I ask is that when I bought my '99 SS last year it only had 85 hours on it. I haven't had an issue yet but I'm beginning to wonder how long they normally last? I just don't want to get caught unprepared.
They will last a long, long time...unless the filter gets plugged and the tank is below 1/2, or you run out of gas...if that happens the pin has been pulled on the gernade.

bigmac
05-09-2006, 01:32 PM
How many hours are these pumps normally good for? The reason that I ask is that when I bought my '99 SS last year it only had 85 hours on it. I haven't had an issue yet but I'm beginning to wonder how long they normally last? I just don't want to get caught unprepared.

My first pump was good for about 6 hours. My second pump has been good for 55 hours, so far. If treated well, I think they should last a long time, but I do think there are some pitfalls to which they are susceptible. Dirty fuel, debris in the tank etc can plug the filter, which in turn slows the flow, which in turn causes the pumpt to run hot, which in turn can damage the impeller etc etc. Likewise, running out of gas can cause overheat. I suspect that my fuel pump died at 6 hours because of debris that got in the tank during manufacture of the tank and/or boat. Now that that's done, I suspect it will last a long time unless I abuse it by running out of gas or not pay attention to the filtering of my home fuel tank, or something like that. And I refill the boat when it gets to no lower than 1/4 tank on the gauge when sitting level in my lift. I do note that it would seem to be naive to think they'll last forever, though - I hear of in-tank fuel pump failures on automobiles fairly often.

When my fuel pump originally failed, I took it to the dealer the next day. Naturally, electrical and pressure testing were entirely normal, and on-water testing by him showed the boat to be running great. Fortunately, my dealer persisted. He put one of his shop guys (his 13 y/o son, actually) in my boat and told him to run it around on the lake until something happened. He did that for about 45 minutes, running great the whole time, before the boat died from terminal fuel pump malfunction.

The fuel-line crimping tool is standard part and is available at Autozone.

jraben8
05-09-2006, 01:39 PM
They will last a long, long time...unless the filter gets plugged and the tank is below 1/2, or you run out of gas...if that happens the pin has been pulled on the gernade.


Thank you sir. Time to change my filter... again.

Tom023
05-09-2006, 01:48 PM
FYI, here is a thread that spoke about fuel filter replacement.

http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=6270

MYMC
05-09-2006, 02:12 PM
The filter is an extremely fine element (10 micron I think) which is smaller than a human hair...so it plugs easily. The design of the fuel module is such that above a 1/2 tank the fuel goes through the system unfiltered...it enters through the open top. Once below 1/2 tank all of it goes through the filter. As this gets plugged the pump gets hot...as the fuel gets lower the pump & impeller get hotter (see where this headed). I advise all new boat customers that when you see 1/4 tank it is time to start thinking about filling up. Below an 1/8th your playing with becoming a pedestrian. Run it out of gas and the death of the pump will soon follow.

vogelm1
05-09-2006, 02:55 PM
Vogelm1, thanks for the how to, much appreciated. I'll give it some thought, but since it's all of a week old to me and the chance that it may infact be the pump, I might run it in and have them do the work. I'd hate to go the filter route only to have to run it in for the pump.

Thanks again.
If it is a new boat and under warranty, I would do the same thing...a little inconvenient, but then they can verify the pump not working properly. Hopefully they'll just replace the darn thing and be done with it - it sure sounds like that is the deal. Good luck!

jraben8
05-09-2006, 03:05 PM
Thanks Tom. I guess I'm glad that I'm anal about stopping to fill when I'm at about 1/2 full.

1. Doesn't cost as much to fill.
2. I'm saving my fuel pump.

djhuff
05-10-2006, 08:18 AM
As far as keeping the tank full (learned this the hard way) I look at it as extra ballast. I usually don't have to put more than 20 gal in the boat, and I fill up every day I go out. extra weight. As far as the pin on the grenade comment, I ran out of gas and put 60 hours on it before I lost the pump. And it died 12 hours before I was giving the final water demo for a potential buyer.

Leroy
05-10-2006, 08:59 AM
MYMC: FAQ WORTHY!



The filter is an extremely fine element (10 micron I think) which is smaller than a human hair...so it plugs easily. The design of the fuel module is such that above a 1/2 tank the fuel goes through the system unfiltered...it enters through the open top. Once below 1/2 tank all of it goes through the filter. As this gets plugged the pump gets hot...as the fuel gets lower the pump & impeller get hotter (see where this headed). I advise all new boat customers that when you see 1/4 tank it is time to start thinking about filling up. Below an 1/8th your playing with becoming a pedestrian. Run it out of gas and the death of the pump will soon follow.

wiltok
05-10-2006, 10:37 AM
I agree - MYMC post is invaluable. I'd write more but gotta' to fill up the boat... :)

Ric
05-10-2006, 10:52 AM
I agree - MYMC post is invaluable. I'd write more but gotta' to fill up the boat... :)
his post had a very negative tone to it.. almost the tone of a uligy








:uglyhamme

MYMC
05-10-2006, 11:25 AM
Feel free to move it where ever it is deemed needed. Not sure where the FAQ post went.

rodltg2
05-10-2006, 11:41 AM
The filter is an extremely fine element (10 micron I think) which is smaller than a human hair...so it plugs easily. The design of the fuel module is such that above a 1/2 tank the fuel goes through the system unfiltered...it enters through the open top. Once below 1/2 tank all of it goes through the filter. As this gets plugged the pump gets hot...as the fuel gets lower the pump & impeller get hotter (see where this headed). I advise all new boat customers that when you see 1/4 tank it is time to start thinking about filling up. Below an 1/8th your playing with becoming a pedestrian. Run it out of gas and the death of the pump will soon follow.


the problem with that is that most skiers at private lakes like to keep there tanks low at or above 1/4 tank. On 197's and such , i dont think there will be much if any wake difference between a full tank and 1/4 full, but alot of these boats are kept on sight and dont have access to a gas station. so they only get filled up enough for the sets they are going to take..

is this advice only on new boats?

MYMC
05-10-2006, 11:45 AM
is this advice only on new boats?
Any MC with the pump in tank.

bigmac
05-10-2006, 12:31 PM
Any MC with the pump in tank.

Don't other EFI boats use a similar or identical in-tank fuel pump? What type of fuel pump does Malibu use, for example?

rodltg2
05-10-2006, 12:37 PM
i would imagine the same since they are both indmar

MYMC
05-10-2006, 12:47 PM
Don't other EFI boats use a similar or identical in-tank fuel pump? What type of fuel pump does Malibu use, for example?
Not sure what is on the Malibu (engine mounted I believe). The MasterCraft fuel system is proprietary to MasterCraft.

rodltg2
05-10-2006, 12:53 PM
oh...........

sand2snow22
05-11-2006, 03:03 AM
Below an 1/8th your playing with becoming a pedestrian.

Now that's funny...... :D

skisix@38
05-11-2006, 08:46 AM
Not sure what is on the Malibu (engine mounted I believe). The MasterCraft fuel system is proprietary to MasterCraft.


Malibu's is engine mounted, so it's outside the tank. The Bu's problem is different though, when it reads empty, you still have 10-15 gals of fuel in the RLXi.

Oh, the human hair is 3 micron. But, I don't want to split hairs with you :wavey:

MYMC
05-11-2006, 09:18 AM
Oh, the human hair is 3 micron. But, I don't want to split hairs with you :wavey:
Human hair diameters range from 40 microns to 120 microns. Hair texture is usually classified as follows:

Fine less than 60 microns
Medium 60-80 microns
Thick greater than 80 microns

And by way of further knowledge:
Unfortunately, there is very little you can do to permanently increase the diameter of your hair shaft, but you can maximize what you do have by making sure your hair is as healthy as possible. Maintain a nutritious, well-balanced diet, as illness and malnourishment can reduce your hair’s diameter.

Plagiarized from www.pg.com
(no need to split hairs...but I guess they are big enough we could) :D

6ballsisall
05-11-2006, 09:23 AM
Mike: with all this knowledge on hair, gotta any tricks for keepin it on your head? I seem to have this problem with that. :rolleyes:

MYMC
05-11-2006, 09:31 AM
Might I suggest HAIR (http://www.pg.com/science/haircare/hair_twh_65.htm) ? There seems to be a plethora of knowledge about hair and it's care on this site ;)

BuoyChaser
05-11-2006, 10:09 AM
the problem with that is that most skiers at private lakes like to keep there tanks low at or above 1/4 tank. On 197's and such , i dont think there will be much if any wake difference between a full tank and 1/4 full, but alot of these boats are kept on sight and dont have access to a gas station. so they only get filled up enough for the sets they are going to take..

is this advice only on new boats?
i agree, i'm only going 300-500' to my slalom course, so not anxious to have to fill everytime...i certainly don't notice any difference b/w full tank or 1/4 fuel tank...always wondered how that extra weight affects the PP...

my buddy had these thoughts:
" Not too sure I like the sounds of that design. No filtering above a half tank of gas? What rocket scientist thought up that? What happens when you run the boat in chop conditions or perform power turns with ¾ tank of fuel? Hmmmm, how bout sediment getting stirred up & running straight into your fuel delivery system"

bigmac
05-11-2006, 10:22 AM
i agree, i'm only going 300-500' to my slalom course, so not anxious to have to fill everytime...i certainly don't notice any difference b/w full tank or 1/4 fuel tank...always wondered how that extra weight affects the PP...

my buddy had these thoughts:
" Not too sure I like the sounds of that design. No filtering above a half tank of gas? What rocket scientist thought up that? What happens when you run the boat in chop conditions or perform power turns with ¾ tank of fuel? Hmmmm, how bout sediment getting stirred up & running straight into your fuel delivery system"

It does seem like an odd engineering arrangement, and fuel pump failures are not an uncommon topic here on TMC. Furthermore, I would think that the first indication that such a thing might represent questionable engineering would be the recommendation by anyone that the boat never be allowed to go below half a tank if one wants to minimize the chance of fuel pump failure.

The issue appears to be MC's decision to put the fuel filter before the pump intake, instead of inline between pump and fuel rail. In the latter case, a plugged filter will just bypass the fuel back to the tank. In the former case with the filter before the intake, a plugged filter overheats the pump and causes it to fail. Hmmmm...

BuoyChaser
05-11-2006, 10:31 AM
It does seem like an odd engineering arrangement, and fuel pump failures are not an uncommon topic here on TMC. Furthermore, I would think that the first indication that such a thing might represent questionable engineering would be the recommendation by anyone that the boat never be allowed to go below half a tank if one wants to minimize the chance of fuel pump failure.

sounds like the same issue as putting a strainer on fresh water intake...great because it protects the engine from leaves/weeds/sand but for the idiot MC owner who doesn't know where the dip stick is, the poor engineers have to idiot proof everything...why not just put an inline strainer like on the old muscle cars and vw bug, looks dirty you replace it...see through so you can see if it is running rough throw a new one on...

The issue appears to be MC's decision to put the fuel filter before the pump intake, instead of inline between pump and fuel rail. In the latter case, a plugged filter will just bypass the fuel back to the tank. In the former case with the filter before the intake, a plugged filter overheats the pump and causes it to fail. Hmmmm...
agree better to have a plugged filter than a burned up pump, but GOTTA BE A BETTER WAY...come on, totally unrealistic keeping the tank 1/2 full with current mindset...my grandfather was great at doing that, always stopping to fill his tank when he got to half...just a different way of thinking...

bigmac
05-11-2006, 11:14 AM
I would think that optimal filtering and the consequences of the filtering method would be something that a boat engineer would want to think out pretty thoroughly, given the variable quality of gasoline and its storage at many marinas. I'm sure MasterCraft has indeed thought about it a lot, but as one of the MasterCraft owner's who's had a fuel pump failure, I'm not convinced that they came to the right conclusion.

jmac197
05-11-2006, 11:26 AM
Just how much is a new fuel pump? I am considering getting one for my personal stock. On water time is too valuable a commodity to me. It may be worth a couple of bucks to make sure I don't lose days at a time waiting for a new pump.

Anyone have a backup?

MYMC
05-11-2006, 11:26 AM
For what it is worth:
The pump in the tank is absolutley the way to go...keeps the pump cool and eliminates tons of problems. My thoughts on filtering would include a filter designed to catch large debris before entering the pump and a fine filter before the fuel rail. Of course this system would require the use of a fuel pump that could handle digesting debris from time to time. BTW, This is how the automotive industry has done it for years.

Ric
05-11-2006, 11:28 AM
Malibu's is engine mounted, so it's outside the tank. The Bu's problem is different though, when it reads empty, you still have 10-15 gals of fuel in the RLXi.

Oh, the human hair is 3 micron. But, I don't want to split hairs with you :wavey:
skisix I think you are thinking .003", not 3 microns...

rodltg2
05-11-2006, 12:18 PM
For what it is worth:
The pump in the tank is absolutley the way to go...keeps the pump cool and eliminates tons of problems. My thoughts on filtering would include a filter designed to catch large debris before entering the pump and a fine filter before the fuel rail. Of course this system would require the use of a fuel pump that could handle digesting debris from time to time. BTW, This is how the automotive industry has done it for years.


dont want to start an arguement here. just curious, if it is the best way to go, why do we read about and expereince for ourselves , so many fuel pump failures.?

bigmac
05-11-2006, 01:42 PM
For what it is worth:
The pump in the tank is absolutley the way to go...keeps the pump cool and eliminates tons of problems. My thoughts on filtering would include a filter designed to catch large debris before entering the pump and a fine filter before the fuel rail. Of course this system would require the use of a fuel pump that could handle digesting debris from time to time. BTW, This is how the automotive industry has done it for years.

I think that would make the most sense. With the filter AFTER the pump, it's more easily changed, and a blockage won't damage the in-tank pump.

bigmac
05-11-2006, 01:43 PM
dont want to start an arguement here. just curious, if it is the best way to go, why do we read about and expereince for ourselves , so many fuel pump failures.?

I don't think the failures are related to the pump being in the tank, rather the way the filtering arrangement is set up.

MYMC
05-11-2006, 02:06 PM
dont want to start an arguement here. just curious, if it is the best way to go, why do we read about and expereince for ourselves , so many fuel pump failures.?
The issues really have nothing to do with where the pump is mounted. The location in the tank is the accepted standard for auto everywhere and has been since the early eighties.

The following is my opinion only and does not represent the views of anyone other than me
The real issues come down to filter placement and a pump that has little tolerance for heat or debris. Since the filter is so fine it becomes restrictive as the media becomes clogged making the pump work harder. Always remember that pumps are much better at pushing than pulling! As the heat builds the impeller begins to swell at a rate greater than the housing thus causing things to get hotter due to the interference. Without the aid of a fuel to cool it (since we are down below a 1/4 tank) things go from bad to worse.

Any trouble with the fuel pump in your car? Probably not…why? Look at how it is laid out…large media sock on the inlet side of the pump in the fuel tank out to a fine media serviceable filter before the fuel rail. My personal solution would be to do it exactly the same way.

BuoyChaser
05-11-2006, 02:37 PM
The issues really have nothing to do with where the pump is mounted. The location in the tank is the accepted standard for auto everywhere and has been since the early eighties.

The following is my opinion only and does not represent the views of anyone other than me
The real issues come down to filter placement and a pump that has little tolerance for heat or debris. Since the filter is so fine it becomes restrictive as the media becomes clogged making the pump work harder. Always remember that pumps are much better at pushing than pulling! As the heat builds the impeller begins to swell at a rate greater than the housing thus causing things to get hotter due to the interference. Without the aid of a fuel to cool it (since we are down below a 1/4 tank) things go from bad to worse.

Any trouble with the fuel pump in your car? Probably not…why? Look at how it is laid out…large media sock on the inlet side of the pump in the fuel tank out to a fine media serviceable filter before the fuel rail. My personal solution would be to do it exactly the same way.
i like, i like, so lets come up with a "Mastercraft by Design" solution...

MYMC
05-11-2006, 03:05 PM
i like, i like, so lets come up with a "Mastercraft by Design" solution...
Let me get a couple ducks in a row first... ;)

pilot02
05-11-2006, 03:30 PM
The issues really have nothing to do with where the pump is mounted. The location in the tank is the accepted standard for auto everywhere and has been since the early eighties.

The following is my opinion only and does not represent the views of anyone other than me
The real issues come down to filter placement and a pump that has little tolerance for heat or debris. Since the filter is so fine it becomes restrictive as the media becomes clogged making the pump work harder. Always remember that pumps are much better at pushing than pulling! As the heat builds the impeller begins to swell at a rate greater than the housing thus causing things to get hotter due to the interference. Without the aid of a fuel to cool it (since we are down below a 1/4 tank) things go from bad to worse.

Any trouble with the fuel pump in your car? Probably not…why? Look at how it is laid out…large media sock on the inlet side of the pump in the fuel tank out to a fine media serviceable filter before the fuel rail. My personal solution would be to do it exactly the same way.


I agree with Mike on this, unfortunately, I think it would cut into service oppurtunities for MC dealers too much.... lol

PS: Mike, I asked for ya at the tournament last weekend (Sunday), Guess you were already gone. as the folks at Watersports Central hadn't seen ya that day. Did meet J.D....

MYMC
05-11-2006, 03:41 PM
I agree with Mike on this, unfortunately, I think it would cut into service oppurtunities for MC dealers too much.... lol

PS: Mike, I asked for ya at the tournament last weekend (Sunday), Guess you were already gone. as the folks at Watersports Central hadn't seen ya that day. Did meet J.D....
Sorry I missed you. The day didn't go as planned for Maeghan (never fall mid course on a short site) so we headed back.

pilot02
05-11-2006, 03:55 PM
That's ok. We'll catch up to ya another time.

Did you fly yourself in?

MYMC
05-11-2006, 04:13 PM
Yeah, and drove back...what fun! To be honest I did test drive the new Lotus Exige, and that was a blast. Of course I did look a little silly as they were using the jaws of life and come along to get me out! :eek:

oxmach
05-16-2006, 04:01 PM
Well I took it into my dealer on the weekend, and gave the service manager a run down on my symptoms, and passed along the suggestions from here.

They ran the boat for 20 mins and it shut off, ran another 20min shut off. He said it was like clock work.

Turns out it was the ECM. They've run it three times since with no problems.

Reminds me of a few of JimN's posts not to change parts on spec. but to do a complete diagnostic. All the same, the discussion on the fuel pump and filter is very valuable to those who see it.

MYMC
05-16-2006, 04:34 PM
Glad to hear it's fixed and I guess I was wrong... :popcorn:

JimN
05-16-2006, 04:35 PM
If they said anything about a 51 code, that's EEPROM failure. I had one boat come in where the IAC function was toast and it would start if the throttle was cracked but on hard deceleration, it would park the IAC and die. Good to see it's up and running again.

oxmach
05-16-2006, 06:49 PM
Thanks, I'm happy too as we are going into the first official long weekend of the summer season this weekend. Tough one to call based on the symptoms....I would have put money on it being fuel related based on it's behaviour.

BuoyChaser
06-21-2006, 11:05 AM
sure enough the running rough in my dad's was a clogged fuel filter, so weird because the filter looked fine to the human eye...

JimN
06-21-2006, 12:39 PM
Unless your eyes can see 10 micron particles or there's an accumulation, you won't see anything wrong.