PDA

View Full Version : Shaft alignment??


6ballsisall
05-01-2006, 03:01 PM
Does anyone know how I can check my shaft alignment? Before I took it to the MC dealer for my last wonderful experience I didn't have any rattles or vibrations but thought why it was in there I'd have them check the angle using all their cool tools. They told me it was way out and adjusted it for me (and charged me alot!) Now I seem to have some rattles in reverse and forward when at a sharp turn at idle speeds. How can I check to see what is going on? I checked the prop, no dings or bends, it's the same prop I used last year (Acme CNC 541) and is in perfect shape.

88 PS190
05-01-2006, 03:14 PM
You unbolt the coupler and use feeler guages, think its .003" and check to see that they coupler's faces are all in alignment with each other. if not, there are pinch bolts on the mounts to allow the adjustment.

Hoosier Bob
05-01-2006, 03:18 PM
Assuming all is aligned well you may want to check the Strut Bearing. A rattle in reverse may be coming form there. All can be aligned fine but when that bearing goes the shaft will move. Not too expensive. You can even replace the whole strut for under $150 I believe (doing it yourself).

Tom023
05-01-2006, 03:38 PM
If the shaft were out of align, it probably wore the strut bearings as Hoosier Bob indicated. I just replaced my strut bearings with the Johnson XPC vesconite bearings, put in a dripless seal and aligned the shaft, which I think has been off by 3/4" since the day I took delivery. Although I didn't notice any harsh vibrations before, it is definitely smoother now.

6ballsisall
05-01-2006, 03:39 PM
I got under the boat and jiggled the shaft at the prop end to see if there was play at the strut and there isn't any. Is there another way to tell if the strut bearings are going bad??

Tom023
05-01-2006, 03:42 PM
Take a look at where the shaft enters the bearings from the boat and the prop side. Look specifically at the "gap" between the bearing and the shaft and see if it is appoximately equal. If the shaft were misaligned and now aligned, you may have a large gap worn on one side.

6ballsisall
05-03-2006, 12:05 AM
Ok so I got under the boat tonight before going out and looking at the strut from the back side and the front side I don't see any wear on them. The strut is tight and doesn't have any "slop" on it when I grab the shaft and try and move it around. I bought a feeler gauge and will check the gap this weekend when I have the time and desire to tear it apart. What else should I check? When I look up at the hole that goes into the hull the shaft looks to be well centered in that hole.
The vibrations are annoying me to say the least. I get them while at idle speeds in a hard right turn and sometimes when going into reverse specifically. Any help this anal retentive boat owner would greatly appreciate!!

east tx skier
05-03-2006, 12:11 AM
Jeff, two things to check.

1. Is the prop nut on tight? This caused me to have a little rattle when I first started up. Once under way, the force kept it tight on. But in reverse, there was a little wobble and you could hear it.

2. My brother in law had a bad vibration in his boat. Turned out to be an impropelry packed stuffing box. Something you could do easily in 20 minutes for $6. If that's not it, at least you repacked the stuffing.

RobertT
05-03-2006, 12:12 AM
I had the same problem. My dealer came out to my lift and showed me how to do the following...

Peel back the motor cover/deck, exposing the coupler. There was four bolts on mine, which he loosened but not completely. He spun it around by hand and we found without a gauge that it was absolutely perfect. Had it not been, it would have not been hard to figure out how to align it with the motor mounts but there was no need.

My prop was perfect, and my lake is never less than 6 feet deep so I figured that couldn't be it.

It was.

I put a new prop on and all vibration was fixed. Turns out that I must have hit a little stick or something and dinged the prop.

Sixty bucks later the prop was fixed, but I still have the acme on the boat but now I have a spare.

This may not be applicable, but it was my experience with a similar problem.

rt

6ballsisall
05-03-2006, 12:26 AM
hmmmm... maybe I'll take the prop off and run over to Delta propeller and have them check it out???? Thanks for the info!!

Tom023
05-03-2006, 11:21 AM
Eastie may be on to something. Did you take your prop off between the time it was vibration free and now? It is possible for the prop not to be on quite straight if it's not torqued down properly, which would cause a vibration.

6ballsisall
05-03-2006, 11:28 AM
I will check the prop tonight. I haven't taken it off but from experience know the prop nut can work itself loose. Thats worth checking into! I looked at the prop once again this morning before leaving for work (can you tell this is driving me nuts!! :( ) and the prop looks perfect, not even the slightest ding or knick in it. I think this evening I will try the prop nut and making sure the key is still in place correctly and see how that goes.

Hoosier Bob
05-03-2006, 12:40 PM
Maybe there's a screw loose but it isn't in the boat? :D

CoFooter
05-03-2006, 12:46 PM
You may want to pull the prop and re-seat it. Sometimes the key does not get completely seated (it can tend to ride up on the shaft) in its keyway which prevents the prop from fully seating against the taper. Make sure it is flush with the back side (rear facing side) of the prop hub when you put it on and slide it up the shaft.

Hoosier Bob
05-03-2006, 09:59 PM
Good to always put the prop on without the key and mark where it seats and make note of how it seats. Then remove, place the key in and slowly tighten. If it appears to be short of your mark the key may be binding. Just a note.

PendO
05-03-2006, 10:07 PM
we used to have a good thread on this topic.

jimmer2880
05-04-2006, 06:58 AM
Good to always put the prop on without the key and mark where it seats and make note of how it seats. Then remove, place the key in and slowly tighten. If it appears to be short of your mark the key may be binding. Just a note.

Wow - great idea. I never thought of that before.

MYMC
05-04-2006, 09:59 AM
You can paint the shaft with blue machinist dye and then install the prop and tighten the nut. Remove the prop and look at the "witness" marks (where the dye was rubbed off)...does it make good contact or is it only touching the high points? You can then sand the high spots so that you have full contact.

Be forewarned this is a tail chasing procedure that is zero amount of fun!

6ballsisall
05-06-2006, 06:38 PM
Well I pulled the 4 bolts today and look what i found............. I know it's probably hard to get some perspective on this but first let me say when I pulled the 4 bolts there was so much tension on the shaft I couldn't even get it to break free of the coupler. I had to get a screwdriver on it and pry them apart. When I did there was an enormous amount of tensio let off the driveshaft. On the right side (looking at the picture) there is about a 1/4" gap and the motor sits about 1/4" inch higher than the driveshaft.

Would you say it was aligned my a Mastercraft dealer correctly??

6ballsisall
05-06-2006, 06:39 PM
Another pic.........

6ballsisall
05-06-2006, 06:41 PM
Another pic..........

Cloaked
05-06-2006, 06:42 PM
Dealers..... Pfffffffffffffttt.

pilot02
05-06-2006, 06:44 PM
Ouch!!
Sorry to hear that Jeff.
Guess I'm not the only one out of the water today. Went to change the oil and my temp sender was pegged. No one around had one instock so instead of being on the course today, I'm sitting at the house! ArrrrgggghhhhhhhHHHHHH!!!!

6ballsisall
05-06-2006, 06:46 PM
After I took the pics and before I got on here I decided I better crack open a beer. Otherwise I might have chosen to get in the car and go crack someones head at Hern Marine.

I've had it. $600 I gave them and they didn't fix a damn thing on my boat, in fact they gave it back to me in worse shape than when it went in. Who do I write a letter to at Mastercraft?

erkoehler
05-06-2006, 06:56 PM
Pilot, clean out your PM's.....are you bringing the course to MM2 in May?

6ballsisall
05-06-2006, 07:08 PM
Erk no threadjacks here........

So I loosened all the pinch bolts thinking I'll get the side to side worked out then do up and down next. Should the motor slide pretty easy or do I need a crowbar to get it going?

Tom023
05-06-2006, 07:13 PM
Mine was off by about 3/4" I'm sure from the day I bought the boat, check it out in this thread. (http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=6984&highlight=alignment)

After a short discussion with my dealer, when he said "we don't worry about the 0.003" that MC requires, we just get it so it slips in," I decided to do the job myself. Chuck at BAWS helped me with one thing I couldn't figure out, and after that, I got it perfectly aligned to .001. If you have the time, do it yourself, you'll learn a lot and know it's done right. You should get your $$ back.

If you want to try it I can walk you through the basics over the phone if you need. It's not too hard.

Tom023
05-06-2006, 07:18 PM
Erk no threadjacks here........

So I loosened all the pinch bolts thinking I'll get the side to side worked out then do up and down next. Should the motor slide pretty easy or do I need a crowbar to get it going?

Yep, get bar and put between the engine mount and the engine. Be careful, the engine slides WAY easier than you would think. I gave it a good tug and it went the 3/4" plus another inch, then I had to come back.

Although hard to tell from a picture, looks like yours needs to twist a bit too. Read my comments in the other thread about locking down one corner.

Cloaked
05-06-2006, 07:22 PM
Mine was off by about 3/4" I'm sure from the day I bought the boat, check it out in this thread. (http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=6984&highlight=alignment)

After a short discussion with my dealer, when he said "we don't worry about the 0.003" that MC requires, we just get it so it slips in," I decided to do the job myself. Chuck at BAWS helped me with one thing I couldn't figure out, and after that, I got it perfectly aligned to .001. If you have the time, do it yourself, you'll learn a lot and know it's done right. You should get your $$ back.

If you want to try it I can walk you through the basics over the phone if you need. It's not too hard.Thank you for stepping up to assist my good friend Jeff..... Mighty nice of you....

6ballsisall
05-06-2006, 08:02 PM
Ok I got the side to side action corrected. Now I need to drop the motor, probably about 1/2" of so!! Off to go by a 1" wrench :rolleyes:

6ballsisall
05-06-2006, 08:03 PM
Mine was off by about 3/4" I'm sure from the day I bought the boat, check it out in this thread. (http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=6984&highlight=alignment)

After a short discussion with my dealer, when he said "we don't worry about the 0.003" that MC requires, we just get it so it slips in," I decided to do the job myself. Chuck at BAWS helped me with one thing I couldn't figure out, and after that, I got it perfectly aligned to .001. If you have the time, do it yourself, you'll learn a lot and know it's done right. You should get your $$ back.

If you want to try it I can walk you through the basics over the phone if you need. It's not too hard.


Tom

I appreciate that! I may have to take you up on it, could you PM me your # just in case?

TMCNo1
05-06-2006, 09:02 PM
You can paint the shaft with blue machinist dye and then install the prop and tighten the nut. Remove the prop and look at the "witness" marks (where the dye was rubbed off)...does it make good contact or is it only touching the high points? You can then sand the high spots so that you have full contact.

Be forewarned this is a tail chasing procedure that is zero amount of fun!


That purple stuff is called "Prussian Blue" and is put on the shaft then the prop is rotated on the shaft w/o the key by hand slowly for several revolutions. Pull prop off and inspect where the blue is missing. At least 60% contact [loss of blue] is required for a proper installation of a prop. If less than 60% estimated contact is obvious, place some valve grinding compound on the shaft and inside the prop hub and spin the prop on the shaft w/o the key with moderate pressure 100 times, 10 revolutions in each direction. This will grind down and mate the two surfaces for sufficient contact for proper prop installation. Remove prop and clean shaft and prop hub inside, apply a light coating of grease on shaft and inside hub install key and prop, install and tighten prop nut and install cotter pin. Everytime you change props it is recommended you install a new Nyloc prop nut or you can apply a small amount of Loctite on the propshaft threads.
Most of this information came from my 1989 MC owners manual and from Mastercraft Technical advisors.
This should be covered in everyone's MC owners manual under "Changing Props".

6ballsisall
05-07-2006, 10:48 AM
Well I got the side to side tolerances back to spec, and today will tackle the height issue. All in all, the motor was crooked in there and I had to move the motor side to side close to 3/4"!!!!!!! No wonder I had some vibrations!! I just hope the shaft isn't bent now :mad:

6ballsisall
05-07-2006, 07:25 PM
Well after talking with Footin and telling him I wasn't going to worry about the top to bottom alignment the little guy on my shoulder told me to do it right. I dropped the back of the motor 2 full rotations on both rear motor mounts and Voila!! From 9-3pm the tolerance is now .001 and from 3pm-9pm is .003 so it's all within MC specs. (And an entirely different world from what Hern Marine set it at :mad: ) My anal retentive self wanted to lower the front motor mounts just a touch but I couldn't break the lock nuts free and the little one was crying inside so I called it a day. Who knows, I still might try and lower the front in the next day or so. Can't wait to water test it now. Something tells me it will be smooth as silk again!! :worthy:

Footin
05-07-2006, 07:57 PM
I am sure you will sleep better knowing its done.

Wes
05-07-2006, 09:22 PM
Probably a little late on this discussion, but I will attach an instruction sheet that a member posted some time ago that outlines in detail how to align the prop shaft. Hope this helps.

Wes

MYMC
05-08-2006, 09:56 AM
Dealers..... Pfffffffffffffttt.
Hey, watch that...where do you think he got the idea to do this?

6ballsisall
05-08-2006, 09:59 AM
Hey, watch that...where do you think he got the idea to do this?


:D Glad there are a few good dealers out there!! ;)

Thanks Mike!! :toast:

MYMC
05-08-2006, 12:04 PM
Anytime Jeff, just sorry to hear I was right.

6ballsisall
05-08-2006, 12:07 PM
Anytime Jeff, just sorry to hear I was right.

So is my wallet :mad:

MYMC
05-08-2006, 12:45 PM
So I am assuming no skiing?

6ballsisall
05-08-2006, 12:48 PM
So I am assuming no skiing?

No skiing this past weekend. HOwever I did get out Mon-Thur. this past week! I'll probably get out Tue-Thur. this week!

You've got email ;)

jpattigr
05-10-2006, 01:22 AM
Thanks to all for this thread, I decided to check my shaft coupling after reading this thread and lo and behold it was out of spec!
With the info on here and a few turns of the mounts all is perfect now. I look forward to getting it back on the water to feel the improvements.
Thanks to all :toast:

parkcityeric
05-10-2006, 02:01 AM
I just went through a similar excercise with my 2001 Prostar 190 as I replaced the factory packing with a PSS seal . . . I think all MC boats should come standard with the PSS seal as the packing is so dated . . . anyhow, my motor was off a good 1". I think the easiest test . . . if you can turn the propellor easily with one hand it is pretty much in alignment, if you need two hands, there is something wrong! My boat runs perfect now! I think it is strange that so many come from the factory out of alignment . . . my '92 was the same way.

6ballsisall
05-10-2006, 09:53 AM
I think the spin test is a misnomer. I could turn my prop with one finger without any problems and it was definetely out of alignment.

Bert
05-10-2006, 10:12 AM
I just went through a similar excercise with my 2001 Prostar 190 as I replaced the factory packing with a PSS seal . . . I think all MC boats should come standard with the PSS seal as the packing is so dated . . . anyhow, my motor was off a good 1". I think the easiest test . . . if you can turn the propellor easily with one hand it is pretty much in alignment, if you need two hands, there is something wrong! My boat runs perfect now! I think it is strange that so many come from the factory out of alignment . . . my '92 was the same way.
If it was out that much didn't it vibrate ??

Tom023
05-12-2006, 03:31 PM
So what is the result of your efforts or the weather too bad for you to get out? Inquiring minds want to know.

6ballsisall
05-12-2006, 03:33 PM
So what is the result of your efforts or the weather too bad for you to get out? Inquiring minds want to know.


Haven't been out yet. It's to darn cold here. I might weather out tomorrow heavily clad just for a quick test spin. Depends on how much rain we continue to get. :rolleyes: :(

Tom023
05-12-2006, 03:43 PM
Let us know how it goes. Fall like weather here, 80s with no humidity. Perfect for the CART racet this weekend...in which I have a seat waiting in the pace car.

6ballsisall
05-15-2006, 10:49 PM
Well I put it all back together. I couldn't sleep knowing the bottom half of the shaft was at .003 so I dropped the front of the motor a little. The whole thing is about .001-.002. Probably will get out tommorrow regardless of weather in the evening and give it a test. Feels good to know it's back to were it should be. Just wish the local MC dealer hadn't screwed it up so bad :mad:

6ballsisall
05-17-2006, 01:16 PM
Test rode it last night. It's as smooooooooth as silk again!! Thanks all who lent a hand with this!! :wavey:

JimN
05-17-2006, 01:42 PM
parkcityeric- the shaft alignment is part of dealer prep. It obviously wasn't done and some dealers think gassing it up, putting the plugs/knock sensor in, hooking it up to a battery and slapping it on the butt is the way to do it. There's a lot more to it and some dealers don't care about doing things right when they're busy.

Bert- it was out of alignment, not bent.

For anyone who makes a major adjustment in their shaft, go and check the strut's alignment. That may be off now

jrandol- .003" is within spec. Changing it to .001" or .002" won't really accomplish anything. I've seen a few that were off by about 1/8" and worked fine but I reset them because they were so far off and really should be right.

6ballsisall
05-17-2006, 01:54 PM
JimN I know .003 is spec, mine wasn't even the ballpark after leaving the dealer. I would have been happy with .003 when I did it myself but just happened to get lucky and be a little tighter. That won't hurt it will it?

How do I check the strut alignment??

JimN
05-17-2006, 01:59 PM
Being that close is great. Go under the boat and see if the shaft is centered in the strut bearing on top and at the bottom. You can use feeler gauges for this and if it's way off anyplace around the shaft, the strut should be tweaked. This may take two people since the screws and nuts aren't anchored in place.

6ballsisall
05-17-2006, 02:00 PM
Being that close is great. Go under the boat and see if the shaft is centered in the strut bearing on top and at the bottom. You can use feeler gauges for this and if it's way off anyplace around the shaft, the strut should be tweaked. This may take two people since the screws and nuts aren't anchored in place.


Will do! Think this will wait until after MM2 this weekend but plan to get on that! I like it when the boat rides like Butta!

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-17-2006, 02:02 PM
I run smooth at 'boarding speeds (<25mph), but once I kick 'er in the pants a bit (>30) I get a shimmy/vibration. Wonder if I should check my alignment?

bigmac
05-17-2006, 08:43 PM
I run smooth at 'boarding speeds (<25mph), but once I kick 'er in the pants a bit (>30) I get a shimmy/vibration. Wonder if I should check my alignment?I was told that a shimmy often indicated either a prop way out of balance, or a bend in the middle of the shaft, so that at speed it "jump-ropes"...

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-17-2006, 09:06 PM
I was told that a shimmy often indicated either a prop way out of balance, or a bend in the middle of the shaft, so that at speed it "jump-ropes"...

Thanks for the reply. I describe the vibration as more of a pulsating vibration than a constant vibration.

I posted a thread on what my prop looks like, so hopefully I'll get some feedback.

See prop thread here. (http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=8935)

Any help is appreciated.

TMCNo1
05-17-2006, 09:29 PM
From the looks of that prop, it has been worked on by someone, sometime. I would have the dealer swap it out for a new one and see what happens or you can do it yourself. That righthand blade in the picture looks to me like it has an unusual bend in it near the hub, ICBW, but when I get under my boat and look at mine from the same angle there is no bend. Is your prop an OJ? Because I am comparing your picture to my S/S 4 Blade OJ.

bigmac
05-17-2006, 10:56 PM
Thanks for the reply. I describe the vibration as more of a pulsating vibration than a constant vibration.

I posted a thread on what my prop looks like, so hopefully I'll get some feedback.

See prop thread here. (http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=8935)

Any help is appreciated.

I just put a new Acme CNC on my boat 2 days ago. I saw those same smooth marks on the back of two of the 4 blades - my prop guy told me they were for balancing.

I'd get the prop looked at - most good propeller shops have the blocks for most inboard props and they should be able to be sure it's balanced in spec.

If its "pulsating" rather than shimmying that doesn't change directly with engine RPM, it might be just a harmonic slightly out of phase, which would mean you have two vibrations. I guess I'd go the whole route and check the prop, check the shaft, check the engine alignment.

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-18-2006, 09:02 PM
OK. Reading thru this thread and it's attachments, I need to get clarification. It's mentioned that the prop shaft flange and coupler should align w/o the bolts and it spread so it's not resting of the boss. However, the "Propshaft Alignment" Word attachment in this thread states that you should bolt the shaft and coupler together and leave about 1/16" of a gap b/w the coupler and shaft flang and then start your measurements. Which is correct?
Thanks!

Edit:

I should mention I have a V-drive.

Here's (http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=6984&highlight=alignment) where it's mentioned they should align without forcing.

And here is the Word attachment that states to bolt them together before starting the measurements. Note 12, specifically.

vogelm1
05-18-2006, 10:02 PM
I took all the bolts out. I tried leaving them in as suggested, but it does affect the alignment...the bolts "****" just enough between the flanges to goof things up and not get a correct reading with the feeler gauges. Mate the flanges together by hand and push them together good 'till you think they're perfectly face to face. Then used the feeler gauges to check all around the flange. Even though they may look parallel, you might be surprised that a .003 or larger feeler gauge can be stuck between them somewhere. The packing gland will keep just enough friction on the shaft to hold things in place while you check.

My boat had 60 hours on it when I checked, and it was off .010 - a couple cranks down on the front mounts put 'er right on the money. Good luck -

Tom023
05-18-2006, 11:01 PM
Exactly as vogelm1 said, without the bolts.

vogelm1
05-18-2006, 11:23 PM
In my post above I must have used a word that the program didn't like...it was **** 'd out. The word referenced a male rooster. Anyway, what I wanted to say was that by leaving the bolts in, the bolts 'jam' or provide enough tension that it's very difficult to get a proper feeler gauge reading. Sorry for the confusion and didn't mean to get vulgar on purpose. :o

JimN
05-18-2006, 11:34 PM
Male rooster- have you ever seen a female rooster? "I say, I say, there's something a little wrong here!"

vogelm1
05-19-2006, 12:26 PM
Male rooster- have you ever seen a female rooster? "I say, I say, there's something a little wrong here!"

Ah yes... that would be correct :D Didn't want to leave room for misinterpretation! ;)