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View Full Version : Deep water starting issue....problems..any ideas??


Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-23-2006, 12:57 PM
OK, so I have been out 3 times skiing this year so far. I have been using my new HO Triumph 69" and its nice. SO I figured I would try my Vengeance for the first time this year. SO I try and I cant get up on it :eek: Whats the deal?? I can get up on the Triumph fine. Now the Triumph is 69" and the Vengeance is 67". The Triumph is a bit wider than the vengeance too. Is there that much of a difference in surface area that I can take off that much easier on the triumph? Now keep in mind I am NOt in ski shape as I havent skiied "in shape" since 10-16-05. so I have had 6 months of non skiing. I am a bit surprized about this. I tried 3 times to get up on the Vengeance and I just cant hold on to the handle. Now keep in mind that I am wearing Chota wetsuit gloves(thick ones) and its not easy to hold the handle with them and my hands and forearms fatigue easily with them on, and its early in the season. So can the drag of hte dry suit hinder me too?? I havnet gained any weight over winter, so its not that I am carrying extra weight. I get up fine on that 69" Triumph, but that 67" Vengeance just drags and I eventually just loose the handle..... :o

What what you people think? have I lost the hop on my fastball? Or am I just out of shape?, arms just too weak this early? cant grip the handle well with the thick gloves? What you think? Is it a combination of all these factors?? :confused:

I am open to all ideas :) THANKS!!!!

Cloaked
04-23-2006, 01:19 PM
A deep water start does indeed require a bit of strength for anyone.

Basic concepts to remember:
Without being in the boat to assist from point to point, and successive attempts, my overall opinion and advice is to first and foremost...allow the boat to do the work. Let the boat do the pulling and do not use your arms in an extended and retracting motion to get yourself up on the water. Find a comfortable spot for holding on and allow the boat to do the work.

When I foot with a shorty suit, I do notice a bit of drag, so yes that is a possibility of disadvantage.

Basic reminders: ==> Front knee in close to the chest, tip of the ski up, and have the rope on the inside of the front foot, push forward with the front foot, and allow the boat to get you up.

Patience and a few more tries will have you up and skiing I feel certain.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-23-2006, 01:25 PM
Yea thats generally my method Sporty, I just cant get it on the Vengeance. I just cant hold on. I get up fine on the Triumph, and its just a tad bit wider and 2" longer. It must be just enough more surface area to pop out fo the water..... I think I just need to get my arms in shape so I can hold on. I never had any problems last season on that ski, NONE. I popped out fo the water every time on it.

JLeuck64
04-23-2006, 01:29 PM
Yup, you're right in your thinking.

Kind of reminds me of skiing on my wife's 66 inch ski. I ski a 68 and dropping down a couple of inches makes it harder to get up on, especially if your forearms are already tired or it's early on in the season.

Also kind of reminds me of the summer it took me to teach myself how to deep water start on a slalom trick ski. You have to really pay attention to your position and the driver needs the practice for engine speed and timing etc.

Keep after it and it will come eventually...

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-23-2006, 02:22 PM
well you know, now that I think, It was after I had already skied slalom on the triumph on good run, then twice on the tricks. so my arms were pretty fatigued at that point before I tried the Vengeance. So maybe I should try it FIRST next time when my arms are fresh. Time will solve, once my arms get in shape from the off season.

88 PS190
04-23-2006, 02:44 PM
I ski a 65.5 but have ridden longer skis too. the thing i've noticed is that w/ the shorter ski, if you put the tip in the approx. same spot as your longer ski then you'll have the ski wrong in the water, and you'll end up plowing with the ski, as opposed to getting up on top of it. which increases your drag, and pops the handle out of your hands like nothingelse.

If you can stand to not have your dry suit gloves try using two pair of slalom gloves for hand protection and grip strength.


Try a pull w/ more tip in the air.

hleepert
04-23-2006, 03:01 PM
Make sure most of the air is out of your dyr suit. I know if I have too much air in the suit I am in a bad position for the start. Once I let the air out the start is much easier.

Leroy
04-23-2006, 03:09 PM
Get rid of that rear boot and drag a leg!

erkoehler
04-23-2006, 03:13 PM
On a 69" ski, how much of the ski tip should be showing?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-23-2006, 03:42 PM
I think the rule of thumb is about 2/3 of the ski in the water..... :confused: ??? does that sound correct??

I know I made two mistakes then.

1.There was air in the dry suit
2. I had the ski too far in the water.

This is all great feedback guys! I am learning my mistakes.....

wakesport
04-23-2006, 04:08 PM
I find it more difficult to get up when I have my shorty on. I actually find it easier with my dry suit. But, I don't have a baggy style. The narrower shorter ski will make a big difference. Also, as has already been said if you are tired that will also make a big difference. Get those arms in shape and then give it a go again. With the smaller ski just stay crunched longer.

Cloaked
04-23-2006, 04:36 PM
Get rid of that rear boot and drag a leg!I have always drug a foot on deep starts. :cheers:

jimmer2880
04-24-2006, 08:13 AM
For many folks, when I tell them "keep the handle low", that's all they need to pop out of the water. Remember, handle to the hip - this is still the case when getting up.


Good luck. It sure is frustrating, isn't it?

Brent
04-24-2006, 08:26 AM
Get the driver to drag you @idle a bit before hitting the gas, that should put your body & ski in the best stance to get up.Make sure you look @ the back of the boat instead of the ski on start up.

It will get it ,so relax.

east tx skier
04-24-2006, 10:35 AM
UMP, are you using the deep v rope? The minute you feel that ski start to gain the least bit of lift, just stomp down on that back foot. You'll pop right up. It's always harder to get out with the wet/dry suits (more drag).

DanC
04-24-2006, 10:42 AM
Get the driver to drag you @idle a bit before hitting the gas, that should put your body & ski in the best stance to get up..

People really underestimate the benefits of this technique not just from a body form factor but also a water properties factor. Water has a very stong adhesion property and a slight idle for 1-2 seconds gets some water moving with you to make the break away easier. Not a big deal when you are young and skinny.

If you are using a smaller ski you need to get the ski DOWN in the water more. If you get more ski out of the water you are probably getting the ski too vertical (and just plowing it) instead of getting the back of the ski under your butt (and at an angle to get up on top of the water). This is one of the reasons why dragging a foot can be easier, it gets the ski out of the vertical position.

Thick, soft gloves or old school soft handles can make it tough to hang on.

If you are popping the handle you are probably
1) driver is starting too fast
2) ski too vertical
3) wearing your Uncle's XXXL vest
4) somebody put suntan oil on your handle :eek:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-24-2006, 11:21 AM
NO deep V rope Eastie. I dont need one. and I am being towed at idle for about 3 or 4 seconds before start. Keep in mind, I am able to do deep water starts and I know how to. I am doing them fine with the other ski. I just cant hold on long enough for the vengeance to start to plane out. I think its a combination of these factors: too much air in the dry suit, early in the season(arms out of shape), thick wetsuit gloves, arms were extra fatguied after skiing 3 times that day. Thats what I am thinking.

I appreciate everyones help. I just think its gonna take some time, so I will just keep trying. Gotta get in shape, burb the dry suit, and get my hands and arms stronger to hold the handle in those gloves. If I cant make it on the vengeance, I will keep using the Triumph until I get into shape. At least I can ski that way. :twocents:

east tx skier
04-24-2006, 11:24 AM
NO deep V rope Eastie. I dont need one. and I am being towed at idle for about 3 or 4 seconds before start. Keep in mind, I am able to do deep water starts and I know how to.

My wife's been skiing for in excess of 20 years and she still uses the deep v for the first couple of outings until she gets back into ski shape. Hang on too tight and pop that handle too hard and your arms will hurt for a week.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-24-2006, 11:28 AM
really? Wow. I guess Im not the only one that suffers with it in the early season. I am just gonna keep going. I guess I never suffered from needing a V rope. I have always been able to stay stable and straight, I dont veer off to either side on take off. I think its just gonna take time and practice.

LakePirate
04-24-2006, 11:28 AM
UMP - move your fin one hundredth of a millimeter to the back and that should solve all of your problems. ;)

east tx skier
04-24-2006, 11:30 AM
really? Wow. I guess Im not the only one that suffers with it in the early season. I am just gonna keep going. I guess I never suffered from needing a V rope. I have always been able to stay stable and straight, I dont veer off to either side on take off. I think its just gonna take time and practice.

Well, it keeps your ski tip up, too. Do what you will. There's no shame in using one. Holding on too tight for too long can result in not being able to hold on at all for a while. I'm no doctor, but something about the tendons in the arm. Seen it happen to a couple of people. Very frustrating.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-24-2006, 11:31 AM
UMP - move your fin one hundredth of a millimeter to the back and that should solve all of your problems. ;)
Lakey, I KNEW I could count on you to solve my problems!!! since you solved that, you can solve a few more for me too. see, it burns when I ..... well....you get the idea..... :o will adjusting the fin on my ski help that too?

LakePirate
04-24-2006, 11:32 AM
Well, it keeps your ski tip up, too. Do what you will. There's no shame in using one. Holding on too tight for too long can result in not being able to hold on at all for a while. I'm no doctor, but something about the tendons in the arm. Seen it happen to a couple of people. Very frustrating.

Wife claims that she tore everything in her forearm trying to get up on a slalom for the first time ever.

LakePirate
04-24-2006, 11:33 AM
Lakey, I KNEW I could count on you to solve my problems!!! since you solved that, you can solve a few more for me too. see, it burns when I ..... well....you get the idea..... :o will adjusting the fin on my ski help that too?

Blue star ointment.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-24-2006, 11:34 AM
Well, it keeps your ski tip up, too. Do what you will. There's no shame in using one. Holding on too tight for too long can result in not being able to hold on at all for a while. I'm no doctor, but something about the tendons in the arm. Seen it happen to a couple of people. Very frustrating.
Yea, its a bit frustrating. I can at least ski with the Triumph. I think next time out, I will START with the Vengeance when I am fresh and have all my strength. I will burb my suit good. Then we will see what happens. Just gotta hang in there and get stronger..... arms are just weak from winter.... :o

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-24-2006, 11:35 AM
Blue star ointment.
You RULE Lakey!! :uglyhamme :uglyhamme :uglyhamme

88 PS190
04-24-2006, 11:49 AM
Do you take your pull w/ the baseball grip or with a straight grip on the handle?

It can sometimes change how well people get up. Both work for me though.

I find that if i'm having trouble planing out you have to push your hips up. You'll end up into ski form even before the ski is totally riding and it works.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
05-27-2006, 07:11 PM
Well, I have confirmed with two more trips out on the lake skiing, that I had bad technique earlier this season when I had trouble. The last two times out, I had NO problems deep water starting, and I went up twice on the vengeance. I was just using the wrong combination. I guess I forgot over the winter. I had my ski too straight and I was "plowing" thru the water. I put my ski at an angle, ZOOM right out of hte water! Everytime! :dance:

Did 3 slalom runs today and WOW, a difference between the Vengeance and the Triumph. Both good skis for me, but the Vengeance is noticably more aggresive and it hunts just a tad where the Triumph dont. The vengeance is quicker, and allows a tad more control, but the Triumph is a bit more stable and forgiving. Only 1st comparison test I have done, so I will get more time to analyze them. I have to say this, its nice to have that Triumph if only for the "last run" ski. If I bust arse on the Vengeance all day and I am tired, and want to take just one more run, I can take a more leisurely ride on a slightly more "comfortable" ski. ITs ALL GOOD! :toast: :D

Farmer Ted
05-28-2006, 12:24 AM
I wish it were this easy for me.....


Deep water start (http://www.theswimsuitthread.com/easyup.wmv)

DanC
05-28-2006, 02:24 AM
If you are popping the handle you are probably

2) ski too vertical


you're welcome :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
05-30-2006, 11:13 AM
Oh, sorry DanC :o THANK YOU!!! :toast: :D

LakePirate
05-30-2006, 11:21 AM
I wish it were this easy for me.....


Deep water start (http://www.theswimsuitthread.com/easyup.wmv)


Did they even get wet?

Jeez

Upper Michigan Prostar190
05-30-2006, 04:12 PM
Did they even get wet?

Jeez
Word up to that! was the skier's PFD filled with helium or what? :uglyhamme

H20skeefreek
05-30-2006, 08:05 PM
I'm not sure what everyone else said, b/c I didn't read everything, but.....I was having a heck of a time getting up at the beginning of the season, so I kept telling my wife to hit it harder. I finally realized that we were going the wrong way, a more gradual start up works better, b/c you are ripping the handle out of the skier hands.

PendO
05-30-2006, 08:42 PM
just for the helluvait ... get one of those widebody skis and take a few runs a year with the other foot forward ... it helps with wakeboarding