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bigmac
04-15-2006, 01:21 AM
It wasn't too bad. Kind of a pain for one person due to a lot of getting into and out of the boat, but the install itself was easy and very straightforward.

I elected to NOT switch to the new tiller arm. They are basically the same, and the lever arm is the same between the two, so there should be no handling difference from the old to the new tiller. Plus, I note that the older tiller has an extra hole about 1/2 inch closer, which would increase steering response (at the expense of steering effort) if I ever chose to use that inner hole.

http://mccollister.info/rudder/rudder1.jpg

http://mccollister.info/rudder/rudder2345.jpg

http://mccollister.info/rudder/rudder6.jpg

bigmac
04-15-2006, 01:24 AM
http://mccollister.info/rudder/rudder78.jpg

http://mccollister.info/rudder/rudder910.jpg

http://mccollister.info/rudder/rudder11.jpg

erkoehler
04-15-2006, 01:26 AM
Looks good, what was the total time of the install?

bigmac
04-15-2006, 01:37 AM
Looks good, what was the total time of the install?Two hours. With another person, I'll bet I could do the next one in less than an hour.

crdickey
04-15-2006, 01:50 AM
Did the same thing on my 2003 PS-197 and really like the difference. I use the inner hole and response is quicker and lessens the amount of rotation for equal turning radius. Great for the slalom course! I had to change the rudder housing, the '06 shaft was a few thousands larger than the '03. Also, filed the trailing edge to load the rudder and it tracks like it's on rails!

Bought my set up from Mike at MasterCraft of Charlotte, great guy, very knowledgeable.

prostar205
04-15-2006, 02:55 AM
Bigmac -

Do you actually have to remove the prop to do this? I am waiting for a non-rainy day in Seattle to do this update. I'll probably be waiting until June the way it is raining here.

Great job posting the pictures. They will really help out.

bigmac
04-15-2006, 08:31 AM
Bigmac -

Do you actually have to remove the prop to do this? I am waiting for a non-rainy day in Seattle to do this update. I'll probably be waiting until June the way it is raining here.

Great job posting the pictures. They will really help out.

No, I just happened to have the prop off already. There would be plenty of clearance with the prop on.

bigmac
04-15-2006, 08:36 AM
Did the same thing on my 2003 PS-197 and really like the difference. I use the inner hole and response is quicker and lessens the amount of rotation for equal turning radius. Great for the slalom course!

I was really tempted to switch to the inner hole on the tiller, but I thought I'd try it this way first. If I moved the cable position, I'm not sure how that quicker steering would affect a big boat like the 230VRS. Probably not that big a deal, but making that switch would be pretty easy later on, even while it's on the boat lift.

vegashomeexpert
04-15-2006, 10:58 AM
Outstanding job with the report! Let us know what you think of the difference. Also, let me know if the steering wheel turns completely uniformly or if there are any tight spots. If I am all the what to the left, it takes a little more effort to start back to the right than it does anyplace. I want to see if I need to tinker more or if this is normal. Have fun and enjoy! :worthy:

bigmac
04-15-2006, 11:12 AM
Outstanding job with the report! Let us know what you think of the difference. Also, let me know if the steering wheel turns completely uniformly or if there are any tight spots. If I am all the what to the left, it takes a little more effort to start back to the right than it does anyplace. I want to see if I need to tinker more or if this is normal. Have fun and enjoy! :worthy:

I perceive that one pitfall might be how much clearance you establish between the rudder and bottom of the rudder port, and the top of the rudder port/nylon washer and the pinch bolt on the tiller. If you crank up the rudder real tight against the bottom of the port with the jack, then tap the tiller down tight against the top of the port before tightening the pinch bolt, you could get some binding. I left a few thousandths gap there - so negligible up and down play of the rudder, but just enough to prevent binding. I greased the rudder shaft pretty well with marine grease too. On the trailer, my wheel turns smoothly without any evidence of binding. I don't know how it will act on the water under way, but if it binds, I'd suspect it was due to hydrodynamics of the rudder rather than binding in the rudder port. It's a new rudder and the port has only had about 50 hours of use, so I doubt that binding under way would be due to slop in the port.

If your wheel binds one way vs the other, you might have a lack of grease on the cable end. When I had my wheel cranked all the way to the left, I wiped that cable shaft, which was now fully extended, down thoroughly with grease.

BuoyChaser
04-15-2006, 11:05 PM
get my new rudder saturday, YEAH!!!

BuoyChaser
04-16-2006, 09:58 AM
my dad got his 197 rudder replaced saturday, only a 15 minute install from the dealer on the 2005 since the gastank has the easy access hole...

prostar205
04-24-2006, 02:33 AM
Mine is in. Took me 20 minutes with the help of a buddy.

However, when I dropped the rudder from the tiller arm, there was no nylon washer between the two parts. My dealer took the rudder out during the summer to do glass work around that area. I bet they just forgot to put the washer back in. Guess I'll be calling on Monday.

I can't wait to get it in the water and test it out.

bigmac
04-24-2006, 10:40 AM
Mine is in. Took me 20 minutes with the help of a buddy.

However, when I dropped the rudder from the tiller arm, there was no nylon washer between the two parts. My dealer took the rudder out during the summer to do glass work around that area. I bet they just forgot to put the washer back in. Guess I'll be calling on Monday.

I can't wait to get it in the water and test it out.

I suspect that the nylon washer is there to prevent binding between the tiller and top of the rudder port, and also to hold the top O-ring in. It seems like it would be an important piece of the system.

One thing that I didn't mention (because I forgot to check for it) is that there are supposed to be two O-rings that sit at the top and bottom on the rudder port. In my case, both O-rings remained in the port when I dropped the rudder, so I never saw them. The boat only has 50 hours, so I'm not worried about their condition, but they should probably be checked and/or replaced in an older boat.

The other thing I've seen mentioned here is that it can be VERY difficult to pump grease into the rudder port via the zerk located there. Those zerks can be changed out easily enough if one were to think that the zerk itself were plugged, but I took the injection difficulty to mean that the tolerances between port and rudder shaft were very close and that the whole system was well-sealed. After struggling with the injection process for a few minutes, I gave up, but when I looked at the bottom of the rudder port afterward, I saw that some grease had indeed escaped indicating that I had put a little grease in there. A lever-action grease gun is more likely to be successful at this than a hand-squeezing mini-gun, I suspect. I also thoroughly greased the new rudder shaft with marine grease before I slid it in.

Driv3r
06-14-2006, 11:11 PM
Wakeseeky and I decided to have our '05 X-30 rudder changed out after moving up from a Prostar 205 and being underwhelmed with the handling. The new style (old-style, really) rudder really did the job, with one caveat: it leaked. Not so much at first, but between November and June, it went from 'I think we have a little more water coming in' to having the bilge pump kicking on at the end of each run, more or less.

bigmac walked me through what to look for, and mentioned that I should put some grease into the mount to seal it up. He was extremely helpful, sending me excellent pics of his install so I could get my bearings, and would know what to look for.

Unfortunately, there was a change from '04 to '05 apparently. Note the differences between his earlier pics, and this image of my mount.

bigmac
06-15-2006, 10:27 AM
Wakeseeky and I decided to have our '05 X-30 rudder changed out after moving up from a Prostar 205 and being underwhelmed with the handling. The new style (old-style, really) rudder really did the job, with one caveat: it leaked. Not so much at first, but between November and June, it went from 'I think we have a little more water coming in' to having the bilge pump kicking on at the end of each run, more or less.

bigmac walked me through what to look for, and mentioned that I should put some grease into the mount to seal it up. He was extremely helpful, sending me excellent pics of his install so I could get my bearings, and would know what to look for.

Unfortunately, there was a change from '04 to '05 apparently. Note the differences between his earlier pics, and this image of my mount.

Interesting! The 2005 owner's manual shows that it's supposed to look like this:

http://mccollister.info/rudder/05rudderport.jpg

Those rubber thingys do look like some sort of compression seal as you mentioned, and I dont' see a grease zerk on your photo. I guess grease is a big part of the seal on older rudder ports, but not on yours. OTOH, you did mention that there's some "wiggliness" to your rudder, and it is leaking, so I question the effectiveness of the new design. As I mentioned, my rudder has absolutely zero play in the port, and doesn't leak a drop.

I wonder how you increase the compression on your setup - that would seem to be the problem with leaking and wiggling. IIRC, you paid your dealer for the install - I'd go have a conversation with him. I wonder if that rudder port is indeed the rudder port on all the 2005's or if he changed the rudder port for some reason when he changed the rudder. ONe reason to think that might be that the color of the sealant on my rudder is black, while yours appears to be plain old clear silicone like you'd buy at the hardware store.

prostar205
06-15-2006, 12:25 PM
My '02 does not have the gray compressions thingys either. It looks like the picture that Bigmac posted above. I don't think mine is leaking.

bigmac
06-15-2006, 12:36 PM
The rudder shaft of the 2006 rudder is exactly the same as the rudder shaft on the 2004, and presumably the 2005. My '06 rudder fit that port with remarkable precision, so much so that injecting grease through the port zerk was very difficult. The picture of the rudder port in the 2006 owner's manual is the same port as my 2004, and the 2004, 2005, 2006 manuals all recommend the boat owner shoot some grease into the rudder port zerk as part of regular maintenance. That's gonna be hard for Driv3r to do...

I'd be very curious to know if that compression-donut rudder port is indeed the new MasterCraft rudder port as of 2005, or if Driv3r/Wakeseeky 's boat has some kind of non-standard rudder port for some reason, and if so, why...

To me, that rudder port looks more like the flexible coupling seen on large, low-speed motor sailers than the rigid and much more precise coupling that would normally be found on a high-performance ski-boat.

JohnnyB
06-15-2006, 01:36 PM
I think I missed something along the way....what is the reason and/or benefit of the rudder change? :confused: I see the shape difference in the '06 rudder vs. the previous years.......

bigmac
06-15-2006, 01:51 PM
I think I missed something along the way....what is the reason and/or benefit of the rudder change? :confused: I see the shape difference in the '06 rudder vs. the previous years.......

HUGE improvement in handling. More effective at low speed, MUCH lighter and quicker steering at speed. It's even steerable (relatively) when backing up...

WakeSeeky
06-15-2006, 04:12 PM
Short version is we did take it back to the dealer and no more wiggle, hopefully no more leak (haven't put it in the water yet, but I think we're good now). I'll let the husband explain the technical details, but there is a rubber bushing in our setup that was worn out. Apparently this is normal. I would be very curious to see an '06...

HUGE improvement in handling. More effective at low speed, MUCH lighter and quicker steering at speed. It's even steerable (relatively) when backing up...
Funny thing, we dropped the boat off & our dealer has a new service manager who wasn't there when we had the rudder put on. He's actually very good, just not familiar the history. He says "We'll look and see, maybe you accidentally got an '06 rudder on there." I said actually we KNOW there's an '06 rudder on there. He says "Well, are you going to be upset if we have to put the '05 back on?" We both looked at him and said DON'T YOU DARE!! :D :D

Driv3r
06-15-2006, 04:14 PM
Result of session with the dealer as of yesterday was that they have corrected the issue, but I will wait for the result of a lake test before I give it a pass.

Working in software, I am familiar with 'enhancements' falling into product without being properly documented, and I lack the manuals to compare, so it may be possible that MC has released something new, or the mechanic hacked this install together.

Beyond that, after picking it up, I manipulated (or tried to) the rudder, and felt zero free play in horiz and vert axes.

Based on Wakeseeky's conversation with the mechanic, made while I was hooking up, it sounds like they are using a large, wide shouldered bushing at the top, and possibly an o-ring for the bottom. This would seem to serve to distribute some of the torsional loading when the rudder blade is off axis, at least from the shade-tree engineer POV.

Finally, I was told that this was a 'consumable' part that if replaced at the dealer would probably run approximately $250.00 all in, and the part itself was ~$100.00. If that is a 'consumable', I am going to have to get good at removing the rudder, as this installation has only been in place since November! They did all the work for free, and also included a couple of smaller repairs, so I cannot complain too loudly.

Driv3r
06-15-2006, 05:02 PM
bigmac: I wonder how you increase the compression on your setup - that would seem to be the problem with leaking and wiggling. IIRC, you paid your dealer for the install - I'd go have a conversation with him. I wonder if that rudder port is indeed the rudder port on all the 2005's or if he changed the rudder port for some reason when he changed the rudder. ONe reason to think that might be that the color of the sealant on my rudder is black, while yours appears to be plain old clear silicone like you'd buy at the hardware store.

The port difference, combined with the different sealant, makes me wonder if this is a design change and/or materials change that has not been documented, or if my installation is unique. I got no indication from the mechanic that this was the case. I really think that he would mention it, especially in light of his desire to change the rudder. If it were wrong, I dont think he would have a problem saying so, and even if he didnt mention it, I think they would simply have corrected it and let me go down the road.

bigmac
06-15-2006, 07:08 PM
Result of session with the dealer as of yesterday was that they have corrected the issue, but I will wait for the result of a lake test before I give it a pass.

Working in software, I am familiar with 'enhancements' falling into product without being properly documented, and I lack the manuals to compare, so it may be possible that MC has released something new, or the mechanic hacked this install together.

Beyond that, after picking it up, I manipulated (or tried to) the rudder, and felt zero free play in horiz and vert axes.

Based on Wakeseeky's conversation with the mechanic, made while I was hooking up, it sounds like they are using a large, wide shouldered bushing at the top, and possibly an o-ring for the bottom. This would seem to serve to distribute some of the torsional loading when the rudder blade is off axis, at least from the shade-tree engineer POV.

Finally, I was told that this was a 'consumable' part that if replaced at the dealer would probably run approximately $250.00 all in, and the part itself was ~$100.00. If that is a 'consumable', I am going to have to get good at removing the rudder, as this installation has only been in place since November! They did all the work for free, and also included a couple of smaller repairs, so I cannot complain too loudly.

The whole thing sounds fishy to me, and I'd want to find out if this new "engineering improvement" is indeed the way MasterCraft is building boats. If it is, then it's a bad idea IMHO. It's clear to me that it's NOT an improvement, not if it wears out in less than 1 year in service and costs $250 to replace, and promotes leaks and wobbles of the rudder. IMHO, they've been using a solid, grease-sealed rudder port for many years and it seems to have been working fine.

I'd really appreciate it if some knowledgeable MasterCrafter here could tell us if this new wiggly rubber rudder concept is indeed the way MasterCraft is building their boats as of 2005 model year.

bigmac
06-15-2006, 07:10 PM
[B]

The port difference, combined with the different sealant, makes me wonder if this is a design change and/or materials change that has not been documented, or if my installation is unique. I got no indication from the mechanic that this was the case. I really think that he would mention it, especially in light of his desire to change the rudder. If it were wrong, I dont think he would have a problem saying so, and even if he didnt mention it, I think they would simply have corrected it and let me go down the road.

I wonder why the new service manager thought that changing your 06 rudder back to an 05 rudder might be helpful, since they both have exactly the same shaft diameter.

WakeSeeky
06-16-2006, 12:20 PM
I wonder why the new service manager thought that changing your 06 rudder back to an 05 rudder might be helpful, since they both have exactly the same shaft diameter.

Like I said, he's new. Once we explained that we'd upgraded on purpose, he said he'd look up the information and he did. He's good, he does his homework, but it was amusing. :)

They had the part in stock, boat was only at the shop for a few hours. I don't believe that would have been the case if this was an oddball part. The boat's got almost 160 hours on it and I forgot to ask if this is typical. Rubber doesn't do so great in the desert, so that may also be a contributing factor.

Anyway, we need to do a little more checking into this. If anyone who has seen an '06 (or another '05) has an urge to chime in, I'd love to hear it, otherwise we'll have to make another trip to the dealer to take a look at the one in the showroom.

WakeSeeky
06-16-2006, 12:58 PM
I should add, the '05 230/X-30 was only in production for around 5 or 6 months before the '06 was introduced (January of '05, if I remember right). So that's why I'm wondering if we got some '06 parts. I know I've heard of other mid-year/end of model year changes, but in this case the "model year" was very, very short.

vegashomeexpert
06-16-2006, 01:35 PM
You guys piqued my curiosity so I had to go take a look and see if I got any rubber goods. Doesn't look like it.

WakeSeeky
06-16-2006, 02:02 PM
If you do have a rubber gasket, it will be inside where you can't see it in these pictures. Should have taken a picture of the old part, but I didn't think of it.

Sorry for the crude Photoshop, but if you imagine that approximately where I've drawn the red line, on the inside of the tube (sorry for using the technical term, there ;) ) is a rubber gasket. I looked at the old part, the rubber was worn away. I'm not sure how "long" the gasket is, if that makes sense. For all I know it may cover the inside of the whole tube. There is supposed to be a lip about where I drew the line (although on the inside) and our lip was worn away, allowing some water to leak in and the rudder to wiggle.

That's probably not real clear, I'm not the mechanical one in the family. I'll see if I can get a better explanation for you. 8p

Driv3r
06-16-2006, 03:00 PM
A further comment on the material:

I am not completely convinced that the different colored material is all rubber, or that it comprises a 'packing gland' in the fullest sense of the word.

I was more or less worming my way to it and working by touch.

It may be urethane/steel/o-ring or urethane/nibral/o-ring working as a damper on feedback within the rudder system. It may also be a compression sleeve over the upper section of the shaft.

For all of that, I think it would be a good cross-check for me to head on down to the dealer and talk my way into an '06 to see what kind of setup it has.

The service guy may have wanted to get back to 'stock' by way of resolving the issue. Hard to say.

Driv3r
06-16-2006, 03:02 PM
bigmac,

Does your service manual include a section view of the installation?

bigmac
06-16-2006, 06:55 PM
bigmac,

Does your service manual include a section view of the installation?

Heh...the lack of availability of a MasterCraft service manual is a sore point with me... :D . I think this $50,000 boat is the only item of rolling stock I have for which I don't have one.

The photos of the '05 and '06 were from those respective MC owner's manuals. No section views.

Driv3r
06-17-2006, 01:18 PM
I have roughed out a section view in AutoCad of the straight version, and I am going to take that to the dealer next time I have a chance, to get a sketch of 'the rubber ducky' for comparison.

bigmac, thanks for your help.

Andyg
06-23-2006, 03:05 PM
I just installed the new rudder on my 2003 197. When I first tried to install the rudder through the old housing it would not fit. I called MYMC up and had a new rudder housing overnighted to me. The new one has the "grey" top to it. I had to cut a larger hole in the hull to accomodate the new rudder housing. The new rudder housing is about 1/4" larger in diameter. There is a seal that seals around the rudder shaft inside of that grey part. If it was leaking then that seal was probably bad. There is a snap ring that holds the seal in place and appears to be serviceable.

prostar205
06-23-2006, 03:07 PM
Andy -

What year and model boat do you have?

Driv3r
06-23-2006, 04:58 PM
Andyg,

The problem is that we just took the boat back to have the dealer stop the leak, and it is still leaking. I am wondering if there is another leak, which I am going to check for on the water tomorrow.

Andyg
06-23-2006, 05:11 PM
Andy -

What year and model boat do you have?

I have a 2003 PS197.

WakeSeeky
07-04-2006, 08:30 PM
Just an update... turns out our heater core burst as well, which is why fixing the rudder did not fix the leak. Just bad luck that we had a grand total of three different things start leaking around the same time, making the problem very difficult to diagnose. But I'm happy to report that this entire weekend the boat was bone dry, just like it used to be.

Andyg, glad you posted that. I'm hoping you're right, I can live with a consumable seal.

prostar205
07-06-2006, 11:55 AM
Wakeseeky -

Where is our heater core located? Mine is under the dash area. What were your other leak sources? I am getting a fair amount of water in my bilge now also. The packing nut drips once every 2 seconds and my dealer said that was acceptable. The new '06 rudder does not leak.

WakeSeeky
07-06-2006, 12:43 PM
First thing we found leaking was the hose to the shower. There was a snap fitting on it and the guys at the shop said those hadn't held up all that well so they replaced it with a screw in fitting. Next was the rudder, then the heater core. The heater core is under the front of the engine in our boat. I'm told it's in the back in the '06+ boats. The mechanic mentioned he had the cushions of the back seat out when he saw the water start pouring out.

The weird part was, it took probably 30-45 minutes before water would start showing up in the bilge, so we thought fixing the other two leaks fixed the problem. We actually don't know when the heater core went south, but it sure was hard to track down.