PDA

View Full Version : Hardshell Bindings


USC8791
09-22-2004, 05:29 PM
I'm considering switching to hardshell bindings (fogman); mainly to relieve foot pain. I'm interested to hear any pro's or con's from those of you who have skied hardshells. Thanks!

Leroy
09-22-2004, 05:36 PM
Wow, just looking at them why not put ski bindings on and use your ski boots! Looks like they actually have a release binding, true?

I have not used them.

east tx skier
09-22-2004, 05:49 PM
I think most of the hardshells are mounted with 3m Dual Lock Velcro now if I'm not mistaken. No experience, but judging from what others have said on another ski board, I'd look into the Goode Powershells in addition to the Fogman bindings.

rmc1
09-22-2004, 05:57 PM
Have not used them m self, but know seveal people who have used them and they have had sprained ankle to one friend who wore his accilities tendon and was off skiing for quite a while. It allways seems to happen when they fall on a slalom ski. and the binding dose not release. While it also happens with rubber bindings I have heard of a lot more with the hard shells.

divetravis
09-22-2004, 07:33 PM
My wife and I have been sking with Fogmans since 1999 and there is no way either of us want to go back to rubber bindings. There are a number of reason why I feel they are better, first would be comfort, we used to ski with HO Animals, we liked the control but they were so uncomfortable we could only make about 4 passes through the course and we would have to get out of them, we never have this problem using Fogmans, I also like the fact that when they release both feet come out, I always worried with rubber bindings that one foot would come out and the ski would tear up my other ankle. I don't think you will find anyone who will try to convice you that hardshells will give you better control, most of the folks I know use them because they are more comfortable and they feel they are safer. If you watch you can find a set used for a very reasonable price.

east tx skier
09-23-2004, 03:34 PM
I'd add that there are heat molded footbeds available for some boots, I think the powershells.

phecksel
09-24-2004, 12:42 PM
ABSOLUTELY NOT!

We have had a few injuries in our club from hard shells. Including a very good amatuer level skier who was Noregian national champ. Two days before leaving to defend his title, spiral fractured his leg. Year later, almost to the day, did it again. Two others have has serious tendon damage, one require surgery. One of the pro's fractured a leg with hard shell.

Stay with soft shell!

H20skeefreek
09-24-2004, 01:15 PM
ABSOLUTELY NOT!

We have had a few injuries in our club from hard shells. Including a very good amatuer level skier who was Noregian national champ. Two days before leaving to defend his title, spiral fractured his leg. Year later, almost to the day, did it again. Two others have has serious tendon damage, one require surgery. One of the pro's fractured a leg with hard shell.

Stay with soft shell!


while the HO phantoms are not hard shells, do you think they are too firm?

east tx skier
09-24-2004, 02:20 PM
I was told most recently at ski school by the instructor that hardshell boots were "ankle breakers." Taking such a comment with a necessary grain of salt, the same could be said for water skis in general. That being said, I've heard lots of stories about injuries in hardshell boots.

Don't know how firm the phatoms are. I've heard at least one person report that in an OTF fall, he did come out of his phantoms. So that's good. With lace ups, I never cinch them up very tight, if at all. I've never come out of them when I didn't want to, and always have come out of them when I needed to (knock on wood).

H20skeefreek
09-24-2004, 03:06 PM
I was told most recently at ski school by the instructor that hardshell boots were "ankle breakers." Taking such a comment with a necessary grain of salt, the same could be said for water skis in general. That being said, I've heard lots of stories about injuries in hardshell boots.

Don't know how firm the phatoms are. I've heard at least one person report that in an OTF fall, he did come out of his phantoms. So that's good. With lace ups, I never cinch them up very tight, if at all. I've never come out of them when I didn't want to, and always have come out of them when I needed to (knock on wood).


forgive my ignorance....OTF fall???

G-man
09-24-2004, 03:44 PM
that would be the painful "out the front"

phecksel
09-27-2004, 12:05 PM
I have double high wraps, predicessor to the phantoms, and as I learned friday, they do come off. How I came out of the ski without falling is still a mystery, and it still hurts too! We've only had a couple of injuries with high wraps and several with hard shells.

east tx skier
09-27-2004, 05:14 PM
Phecksel, you're on the animals?

phecksel
09-28-2004, 11:12 AM
Yes, animals

rodltg2
11-30-2005, 06:02 PM
i'm thinking about swithcing to hardshells this winter so i can get used to them by summer. anyone try out the fluid motion ones?

Ric
11-30-2005, 06:06 PM
i'm thinking about swithcing to hardshells this winter so i can get used to them by summer. anyone try out the fluid motion ones?
I've not tried them but thought I'd post a link to FM's (http://www.fluidmotionsports.com/)
They have alot of good things to say about them on the nicholls site

H20skeefreek
11-30-2005, 07:18 PM
I've not tried them but thought I'd post a link to FM's (http://www.fluidmotionsports.com/)
They have alot of good things to say about them on the nicholls site
lol, and a lot of bad things too! Has all of that fighting ended? haven't checked it out in a while.

rodltg2
11-30-2005, 07:26 PM
nicholls site is where i read about them. i visited the site but there are so many differnet models and im confused somewhat on which ones i should buy. i havent read any bad things however i must have missed that.

H20skeefreek
11-30-2005, 07:30 PM
no big deal, just a bunch of hot-headed guys in a pee-ing match. "My binding is better than your's!!"

BrianM
11-30-2005, 07:34 PM
i'm thinking about swithcing to hardshells this winter so i can get used to them by summer. anyone try out the fluid motion ones?

I switched over to the Fluid Motion Carbon 6 late this season. I love them. Extremely comfortable and responsive. Have released smoothly everytime and have never released when they shouldn't have. If you are considering hardshells you definately need to give them a demo. I bought mine as barely used demos and saved a almost $200 bucks. I couldn't tell they had ever been used.

nicholls site is where i read about them. i visited the site but there are so many differnet models and im confused somewhat on which ones i should buy. i havent read any bad things however i must have missed that.
There is one idiot over on the Nichols board that seems to have a hair up his a** against the FMs. Besides that most seem to love them.

I would send Paul an e-mail or call him and talk to him about the systems he will help you find what is right for you.

I would definately go with the Double 6 System as I think it is smoother releasing and safer than the single plate SP system. As for Carbon or not. Supposedly it make the front boot stiffer but I don't know for sure. I went with the carbon because at the time he had a deal on the demo pair that made them cheaper than the regular Double 6.

Brent
11-30-2005, 07:41 PM
What are you trying to gain in switching to hard shells? Do you want double boots or a single with toe plate?
I use the single type R , which I love . It gives me added control & releases when it should as well as being very comfortable.I'd suggest the Double six if you use doubles (great solution for OTF injuries ).

I would write Paul @ jagersport & tell him what you want from a binding & I'm sure he will point you in the right direction .They have a Demo program, so if you don't like them ,just return them ! Paul does great costumer support.

Thomas Wayne has returned to nicholls (not my favorite person).

ski36short
11-30-2005, 09:09 PM
I'm on FMs too. I have the single plate that I've been on for a year and I bought VTJC's Carbon system that I'm going to switch to next year. I love them. Comfort and control are phenomenal (REALLY slow the boat down the first time you use them) and I'm with Brian - they release when they should, otherwise they've stuck with the ski. I was on the Powershells but they were getting old and I was sick of replacing dual-loc annually.

88 PS190
11-30-2005, 09:42 PM
Here's the issue, two hardshells on a single plate is dangerous to your front ankle because it can be exposed to more stress before the rear releases than it would if they were on seperate plates.

Systems such as the FM have a bit of ankle relief in the form of the front being held in place by the back, and using velcro to stabilize the system.

3M dual lock comes in several varieties. The one w/ less loops per inch releases w/ less effort, Goode uses this to hold the plate onto the ski, when you fall the Dual lock seperates releasing the boots. you tune this binding by removing or adding dual lock till it releases how you like.

FM and Fogman and Skitech(reflex) use a tuned spring aparatus similar to downhill skis to control the release quality and force.

Of these Ski tech are two seperate plates, that must be tuned seperately, fogman is a single plate w/ two bindings and is tuned w/ a single release in the rear. And FM double plates involve a spring unit in the rear w/ two plates that align in the middle w/ a puzzle piece, then are stabilized w/ velcro to prevent the bindings from seperating when you hop in, or take light falls, but if you pull up on the front ankle enough to release the velcro in the middle it will release, saving you from achilles and broken ankles. The rear is tuned w/ a set screw and plunger w/ a spring. Like the ski boots.

I like the look of FMs. Fogmans are more streamlined as are goode. Skitech uses more non-specific parts that seem to be hussled together imo.

Additionally, properly fitting your liners to your foot and binding shells minimizes the chance of injury, if you don't pick the right liner it can cause problems.

Brent
12-01-2005, 06:29 AM
FMs also have Double boots on a single flexible plate. I've never seen anyone use that model & don't know the benefits it would have over the 66.

BrianM
12-01-2005, 09:53 AM
Additionally, properly fitting your liners to your foot and binding shells minimizes the chance of injury, if you don't pick the right liner it can cause problems.

All of the FMs have heat moldable liners. After heat molding them to your foot they fit absolutely perfect and are more comfortable than my tennis shoes.

and I'm with Brian - they release when they should, otherwise they've stuck with the ski.
The key is the setup. It seems that the only people that have had injurys with FMs are the people that have the tension way to tight then they don't release. I am 185 lbs and ski 36mph and I have my bindings set at a very light 2.25 and have never had a pre-release, At this setting the release when needed is smooth as silk for me.

Ric
12-01-2005, 10:04 AM
peeeing matches over there galore! I only glanced at nicolls yesterday and it looks as Brian said, to be one guy .
Maybe they all think they are Paul's outside engineers, working probono of course!
oh and don't leave out "my boat is better than your boat"

88 PS190
12-01-2005, 11:15 AM
Funny thing about the FMs is that no one gets the same thing, they're always reinventing it.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 11:55 AM
wow, all this seems so complicated. the fm's do seem to have a bunch a diffrent ones. i guess the best thing to do is call paul at jager, fm system6 or whatever they go by.

what im trying to gain is comfort, my rear foot usually cramps up so bad in regualr bindings that i have to pull my foot out between passes.
ive tried various binding and it does it with all of them.

88 PS190
12-01-2005, 12:00 PM
Does your arch cramp up? The hardshell bindings use heat moldable liners (you heat them in your oven and then form them to your foot) This should provide some support under your foot. They also sell footbeds that you could custom into your bindings if you wanted... would be alright.

Advantage, and perhaps what would stop your cramping is that hardshells allow the bindings to hold your foot by its whole surface, including from the sides. Rubber bindings pull mainly down, and the tighter you go the more squeeze. Of course I always run the rear a bit looser to get some heel lift/freedom.

The FMs are also essentially a custom binding system, very much made to order. So you could discuss your discomfort and see what they think about it.

ski36short
12-01-2005, 12:10 PM
The key is the setup. It seems that the only people that have had injurys with FMs are the people that have the tension way to tight then they don't release. I am 185 lbs and ski 36mph and I have my bindings set at a very light 2.25 and have never had a pre-release, At this setting the release when needed is smooth as silk for me.

Agreed, it is all in the setup. There is some trial and error involved - with the Powershells it's the amount and location of dual-loc. With FM it's basically only the spring setting. While I agree with 88ps190 that the front ankle is susceptible to overloading on a single plate system, the tension setting can still be set low enough to release the whole thing when the front ankle is about to get jammed. I've gone OTF (slow and fast) more than I care to admit without tweaking my ankle at all and my settings are similar to Brian's - 175 lbs, 36 mph, but ~2.50 on the tension.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 12:18 PM
hey thanks for the info. yes it is my arch that cramps up. i may as well give these a try and i have the whole off season to tweak on them to get them right.

Ric
12-01-2005, 12:23 PM
hey thanks for the info. yes it is my arch that cramps up. i may as well give these a try and i have the whole off season to tweak on them to get them right.
rodlt what bindings do you run now?

My HO venoms have an adjustable arch support for either Lefties or Righties

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 12:24 PM
i have the kD's but im thinking about trying the d3's i have a brand new pair i havent put on yet.

88 PS190
12-01-2005, 12:41 PM
I have nothing against the single plate system... I just wanted to note that it can be the cause of damage.

I think running rubber bindings tight on a ski together is the same thing w/ more danger, as there is no mechanical release, just physically getting thrown clear of the rubber. which is dependant on the amount of water on the rubber when you fall and how tight you ran it. Its just not as safe as any of the hard boot systems once you go for a good firm fit.

Ric
12-01-2005, 01:38 PM
If you're wearing rubbers, leave them outside.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 01:51 PM
im also tired of the huge hassle and expense of soap.

:uglyhamme

Ric
12-01-2005, 02:27 PM
im also tired of the huge hassle and expense of soap.

:uglyhamme
ya that soap can break a budget! :rant:

88 PS190
12-01-2005, 02:36 PM
I'm tired of freakin fallin into the water putting a binding on... can you say embarrassing???

Don't lie, i know you've all done it atleast once.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 02:36 PM
ya that soap can break a budget! :rant:


seriously i think i spent about $5.00 last summer. and of course nobody who used my soap even bothered to help chip in.

Ric
12-01-2005, 02:37 PM
I'm tired of freakin fallin into the water putting a binding on... can you say embarrassing???

Don't lie, i know you've all done it atleast once.
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


Ok I admit it but only happened once :o

Ric
12-01-2005, 02:38 PM
seriously i think i spent about $5.00 last summer. and of course nobody who used my soap even bothered to help chip in.
man that bites

sayyyy does anyone know where we can buy binding slime in bulk to save some money? ;)

BrianM
12-01-2005, 03:54 PM
wow, all this seems so complicated. the fm's do seem to have a bunch a diffrent ones. i guess the best thing to do is call paul at jager, fm system6 or whatever they go by.

what im trying to gain is comfort, my rear foot usually cramps up so bad in regualr bindings that i have to pull my foot out between passes.
ive tried various binding and it does it with all of them.

Call Paul and he will hook you up. You will not find a binding that is more comfortable than the FMs after you heat mold the liners. They will seriously be more comfortable than your street shoes.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 04:03 PM
im definately calling him and ill post my observations after the intial trial run. thanks for all th info..

BrianM
12-01-2005, 04:09 PM
Don't know what size foot you have or what forward but make sure you ask him about deals. Check out this page http://www.jagersport.com/saleitems.htmHas a set of Carbons for $499 which is $200 less than normal. This is how I bought mine and saved a ton of money.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 04:50 PM
how shoul;d i size them, i wear a 9.5 shoe. the small-meduim says it can fit upto 9.5 . so would they be too snug?

88 PS190
12-01-2005, 05:03 PM
They like to size my measurement of the length of your foot.

Stand on a ruler w/ you ankle up against a wall, and then measure it.

Remember this. The shell is only part of the game, the liner can be fit in various ways.

If your shell feels tight you can take a smaller lining, and fit it to a larger than normal foot, but it will get thinner than if you get the normal sized liner for yourself.

You can also work the boot into more space, if once you are in it feels tight you can hit it w/ a heat gun and using your foot stretch the shell and it'll form a memory of your new location (not sure on the carbons).

I would talk w/ them to figure out what they'd recommend, have a good measurement metric and standard. And remember, the liner makes the boot.

any one know why this is in the wakeboard section?

BrianM
12-01-2005, 06:34 PM
how shoul;d i size them, i wear a 9.5 shoe. the small-meduim says it can fit upto 9.5 . so would they be too snug?

Just call Paul and he will hook you up. I think the sizes run large because of the heat molding.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 07:18 PM
ok will do. i just like the price on the sm-med ones.

BrianM
12-01-2005, 09:12 PM
ok will do. i just like the price on the sm-med ones.

If you wear a 9.5 I think that s-m will work for ya.

ski36short
12-02-2005, 12:34 PM
how shoul;d i size them, i wear a 9.5 shoe. the small-meduim says it can fit upto 9.5 . so would they be too snug?

Rod, I'm a 9.5/10 and I use the medium. My foot is a bit wide at the toes so it was a little cramped until I got around to heat-molding the liners. It's still a little snug around the toes like a good pair of skates but otherwise perfect. Oh wait, you're from CA. Probably not too familiar with that, huh?!?

rodltg2
12-02-2005, 12:37 PM
skates? i dont think ive ever tired on a pair. maybe roller blades.

Kevin 89MC
12-02-2005, 01:02 PM
Speaking of skates, I skied with a guy this summer who made a his bindings out of a pair of ice skate boots! Apparently he liked them so much, he removed the blades & plastic blade holders, and somehow attached them to a single piece which is held onto his ski with the velcro that the hardshells use I think. Took him forever to lace up. He also would want to be stopped at the end of each pull through the slalom course. Not so much to rest, but he said he'd rather get pulled up than turned around. All that seemed pretty odd to me, but what do I know, he's skiing 32 off no problem and I'm still at 15 off! He gave me some good tips too.
OK, enough threadjacking for one day!
Kevin

88 PS190
12-02-2005, 04:25 PM
I've been trying to get a set, and found some used from ski it again's website. The set is at my house right now, but they look kinda beat up so I may just be getting some new ones.

These are unique though. Build on Roces Rollerblade boots. I have not seen them in person yet as I am at school, so i've only heard through my father that he feels them to be in not such great shape. And the tension adjustment seems to have been munged up by improper use. For 300 w/o liners it is iffy, we'll see if I end up w/ new ones or using these. Take a peak. If they were in good shape, this would be key.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c138/pb_hawkeye/FMBoots.jpg

Jorski
12-15-2005, 12:01 PM
Rod, I'm a 9.5/10 and I use the medium. My foot is a bit wide at the toes so it was a little cramped until I got around to heat-molding the liners. It's still a little snug around the toes like a good pair of skates but otherwise perfect. Oh wait, you're from CA. Probably not too familiar with that, huh?!?

When they heat mold snow ski boots and that problem occurs they have the person slip little rubber toe caps over the end of their foot...makes a little more room for the toes.

If that doesn't work, they punch out or grind the shell. Perhaps an alpine boot fitter would work on these for you....but maybe not for fear of liability.

88 PS190
12-15-2005, 03:00 PM
The shells of these are a bit easier to work with, and if they're really tight you can give a blast of a heat gun to the shell and it'll lose memory a tad and give you room. alot easier to work w/ than a downhill boot.

ski36short
12-16-2005, 02:30 PM
When they heat mold snow ski boots and that problem occurs they have the person slip little rubber toe caps over the end of their foot...makes a little more room for the toes.

If that doesn't work, they punch out or grind the shell. Perhaps an alpine boot fitter would work on these for you....but maybe not for fear of liability.

Thanks for the tip - I'll try that on my next set of liners. The local ski shop does let me use the heat molding equipment but otherwise weren't able to lend much assistance. Full of questions though!

BuoyChaser
05-03-2007, 10:21 AM
just broke the bank and ordered myself a pair size 11, can't wait to try them!!!hopefully they'll arrive for the weekend!!!

http://fogmanbindings.com/