View Full Version : Stereo Capacitor Question
quincyfirefighter
03-08-2006, 10:02 PM
OK I know that this should be posted in the electrical forum sorry. Problem is that my 1 Farad Cap is draining my second battery down. The manufacturer wiring said to wire the power lead directly to the battery. Didn't think with the stereo and amps disconnected by a perko switch that the Cap would still be pulling. Does anyone else have a Cap in their stereo system and what am I doing wrong :confused: Also do I really need one. Anyone????? What do you think Diesel? I am working on rewiring my battery setup to your dual battery relay system :worthy: but don't think that will help with the cap problem. Thanks for any help you all can give. Here's a pic. Sorry the wiring wasn't finished in that pic ... :o
Leroy
03-08-2006, 10:13 PM
I'm not an expert in the caps, just an EE speaking. But I am amazed at the farads in them, and the price!
You can just disconnect it and see if your stereo works ok. It's there to supply power on the sound peaks so you would hear a problem on loud sound peaks, distorted, garbled, maybe even cut out.
With adequate wiring size and short run of +12/gnd I don't think you should need one.
Normally leakage current should be very small in the cap, if you have that much leakage current it may not be good anyway.
SteveO
03-08-2006, 10:28 PM
I think the resident king of capacitors (AKA Diesel) should be the man
http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=3189&page=6&pp=10&highlight=diesel.. I wonder if water over the bow would cause a certain Oklahoman to sh!t himself?
quincyfirefighter
03-08-2006, 10:43 PM
I'm not an expert in the caps, just an EE speaking. But I am amazed at the farads in them, and the price!
You can just disconnect it and see if your stereo works ok. It's there to supply power on the sound peaks so you would hear a problem on loud sound peaks, distorted, garbled, maybe even cut out.
With adequate wiring size and short run of +12/gnd I don't think you should need one.
Normally leakage current should be very small in the cap, if you have that much leakage current it may not be good anyway.
I see your point on leakage. It's only for my sub amp thought, but come to think about it, it is in line on the power side of my sub amp so guess that amp is not on the perko switch :o But I have hooked up the sub amp power on wire to one of the acc. switches on the dash so I can turn it on when I want or run the stereo without the sub and sub amp.
Leroy
03-08-2006, 10:48 PM
So is it the power amp killing your battery?
quincyfirefighter
03-08-2006, 10:57 PM
So is it the power amp killing your battery?
Don't know but maybe. I thought when you turn off your amp by the power wirer ( small wire that goes to the ignition) then there shouldn't be any power draw
zberger
03-08-2006, 11:07 PM
ditch the entire thing.. just roll on a 2nd battery. those amps have regulated power supplies most likely anyways.. not a real benefit.. and caps are just a drain on the system when they are dead anyways.
Leroy
03-08-2006, 11:08 PM
Normally true, just installed amp in my son's car and the switch wire would not control the first unit (but if the lights go off it's off). Installer said they get 2-3% of the amps with this problem. Got another amp and it worked as expected, the switch line turns it on/off.
quincyfirefighter
03-08-2006, 11:17 PM
ditch the entire thing.. just roll on a 2nd battery. those amps have regulated power supplies most likely anyways.. not a real benefit.. and caps are just a drain on the system when they are dead anyways.
Was thinking the same thing.
quincyfirefighter
03-08-2006, 11:20 PM
Normally true, just installed amp in my son's car and the switch wire would not control the first unit (but if the lights go off it's off). Installer said they get 2-3% of the amps with this problem. Got another amp and it worked as expected, the switch line turns it on/off.
The amp in question is a MTX 801D, 2 ohm stable mono. Was told that it was a good middle of the road sub amp.
Quincy- what are all of those splices doing there? What color are you using for the turn on lead? With the spaghetti in there, it looks like one or more of the amps may have the turn on lead connected to a power source. Get a couple of distribution blocks for the power and ground.
If I understand the issue correctly, there are about 5 things connected in this system and at least one of the amps didn't turn on when the head unit was on. If this is the case, use distribution blocks, as I said, and run the head unit's turn on lead to a relay (Bosch, preferably- Potter and Brumsfeld is good, too), then run the rest of the turn on leads to the other devices. A head unit's turn on circuit will only feed ~300 mA. Trying to feed too many things will cause the turn on circuit to shut down.
Also, put some spacers behind the amplifiers so the backside of the chassis can get some cooling air. They'll stay cooler and last longer that way.
quincyfirefighter
03-08-2006, 11:54 PM
Quincy- what are all of those splices doing there? What color are you using for the turn on lead? With the spaghetti in there, it looks like one or more of the amps may have the turn on lead connected to a power source. Get a couple of distribution blocks for the power and ground.
If I understand the issue correctly, there are about 5 things connected in this system and at least one of the amps didn't turn on when the head unit was on. If this is the case, use distribution blocks, as I said, and run the head unit's turn on lead to a relay (Bosch, preferably- Potter and Brumsfeld is good, too), then run the rest of the turn on leads to the other devices. A head unit's turn on circuit will only feed ~300 mA. Trying to feed too many things will cause the turn on circuit to shut down.
Also, put some spacers behind the amplifiers so the backside of the chassis can get some cooling air. They'll stay cooler and last longer that way.
JimN the pic that I posted shows were I have the cap to the MTX amp to the right. The wires that you see were there from the old owner and don't run the amps.I have 4 gauge for that. As far as I can tell is that he had some light of some sort. Look at the top of the cap and you can see that I have remove the power lead for now. There is a second battery that sits in the middle that I have on the work bench charging. Thank for the infor on the spacers thought. :D
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 12:01 AM
All hot leads (4 gauge) from amps go right to the perko switch but the one for the sub. That one comes from the cap which comes from the second battery.
Have you checked for current draw with the key and system turned off?
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 12:05 AM
No I haven't. Would I check it at each battery.
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 12:24 AM
Think I"ll install Diesel's dual Battery relay system first than go with distribution block JimN. Should be easier to hook up the three amps that I have right and do without the cap. Do you think the blue top batteries are worth it?
First, how do you have the second battery connected to the primary battery- a pair of cables (indicate gauge and length)? Disconnect the second from the first and tape off the ends of the cables. You have a fuse or circuit breaker between the two batteries, right? If you don't and a short occurs, you have no protection. Then, connect the meter between the battery + and the + cable to check for draw. If you see any more than about 15 mA, start removing fuses from the amps, making note of the effect. If one amp draws a noticeable amount of current, it could have a leaky turn on circuit.
Where is the Perkop switch located? Is it flat on the floor in an area where it could get wet? Moisture inside the switch can cause leakage across the terminals.
OhioProstar
03-09-2006, 10:04 AM
I think once you install the relay you will want to monitor the amps being drawn at the Alternator. Running an isolator basically pushing voltage to both batteries at the same time which in turn taxes the Alt. If I am not mistaken Diesel also has a larger capacity Alternator which then requires a larger main fuse back near the tranny. I wonder if they make a Cap that will turn off once you turn your head unit off. I disagree that Caps aren't needed. If you notice your power fluxuating when heavy bass notes kick in you need the Cap.
Caps help but a second battery has a lot more reserve and can keep the voltage sag to a minimum during extended periods of high demand. A cap is great for instantaneous peaks but needs to recharge faster.
I was waiting to get into the whole high output alternator issue until after the current draw problem was solved.
OhioProstar
03-09-2006, 10:28 AM
Caps will give you the same power as the battery yet being closer to the amp that is pushing the bass notes allows for quicker response. I guess the sub amp could be mounted closer to the battery to achive similar results.
Leroy
03-09-2006, 10:37 AM
When you think of the battery you can buy for $50, it's surprising why someone would spend $100-$200 on a cap.....but they do often have LED's built in....
Caps help but a second battery has a lot more reserve and can keep the voltage sag to a minimum during extended periods of high demand. A cap is great for instantaneous peaks but needs to recharge faster.
I was waiting to get into the whole high output alternator issue until after the current draw problem was solved.
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 10:38 AM
JimN, I got my work cut out for me. I'm going to install the isolation relay first. Take out the perko switch. Then I will check for draw like you said. The battery cables for the second battery are 2 gauge I think with fuse in line. I will check tonight for sizes of wire and fuse. The batteries are only about a foot or two apart. Stock battery placement on a 2000 Prostar and the other in the middle of the storage area under the observer seat. OhioProstar that's what I was thinking also about the cap on hard hitting bass but didn't know for sure. Also if the second battery could keep up with the bass amp if all amps were hooked up to the second battery only in Diesel"s setup without a cap. But first things first, I will check for amp draw first like JimN said asap. Will keep you posted and thanks again for pointing me in the right direction and the help. :)
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 10:42 AM
When you think of the battery you can buy for $50, it's surprising why someone would spend $100-$200 on a cap.....but they do often have LED's built in....
Trust me, I didn't spend that much for my cap. :eek: And no LED read-out
Diesel
03-09-2006, 11:42 AM
JimN, I got my work cut out for me. I'm going to install the isolation relay first. Take out the perko switch. Then I will check for draw like you said. The battery cables for the second battery are 2 gauge I think with fuse in line. I will check tonight for sizes of wire and fuse. The batteries are only about a foot or two apart. Stock battery placement on a 2000 Prostar and the other in the middle of the storage area under the observer seat. OhioProstar that's what I was thinking also about the cap on hard hitting bass but didn't know for sure. Also if the second battery could keep up with the bass amp if all amps were hooked up to the second battery only in Diesel"s setup without a cap. But first things first, I will check for amp draw first like JimN said asap. Will keep you posted and thanks again for pointing me in the right direction and the help. :)
If the two batteries are not isolated the voltage loss could be happening between the batteries themselves and not caused by the system. The key here is to isolate the source of the loss. A Fluke is your friend. Hook the the entire setup to just one battery and measure the amp draw(if any) and then begin unhooking components one by one until the draw disappears. Isolate the different systems (ie boat, stereo, engine, etc) to make it easier.
I highly doubt it is the cap and suspect the batteries themselves. The argument pro/con about caps is as long and opinionated as the oil brand/weight issue. If you can only afford one; a second battery is a much better option than a Cap. I am really indifferent on the issue and only use a capacitor because of the severe current draw my amps are capable of requiring and it makes me feel better having an instantaneous source of power within 8" of the amps. "Theoretically" I think they help but I have never "heard" the difference in any of my systems.
kalanic
03-09-2006, 11:46 AM
If the two batteries are not isolated the voltage loss could be happening between the batteries themselves and not caused by the system. The key here is to isolate the source of the loss. A Fluke is your friend. Hook the the entire setup to just one battery and measure the amp draw(if any) and then begin unhooking components one by one until the draw disappears. Isolate the different systems (ie boat, stereo, engine, etc) to make it easier.
I highly doubt it is the cap and suspect the batteries themselves. The argument pro/con about caps is as long and opinionated as the oil brand/weight issue. If you can only afford one; a second battery is a much better option than a Cap. I am really indifferent on the issue and only use one because of the severe current draw my amps are capable of requiring and it makes me feel better having an instantaneous source of power within 8" of the amps. "Theoretically" I think they help but I have never "heard" the difference in any of my systems.
Are you only running 1 battery?
Diesel
03-09-2006, 12:06 PM
Are you only running 1 battery?
No, I have 3 batteries in my system and my statement has been edited above to make my intention a little clearer. :)
jmyers
03-09-2006, 12:42 PM
OK I know that this should be posted in the electrical forum sorry. Problem is that my 1 Farad Cap is draining my second battery down. The manufacturer wiring said to wire the power lead directly to the battery. Didn't think with the stereo and amps disconnected by a perko switch that the Cap would still be pulling. Does anyone else have a Cap in their stereo system and what am I doing wrong :confused: Also do I really need one. Anyone????? What do you think Diesel? I am working on rewiring my battery setup to your dual battery relay system :worthy: but don't think that will help with the cap problem. Thanks for any help you all can give. Here's a pic. Sorry the wiring wasn't finished in that pic ... :o
What are the units ie. the Sirius mounted to on the left side? Is there a panel or are they mounted on to the side of the boat? I need to mount my Sirius and another amp under the seat!
kalanic
03-09-2006, 01:12 PM
Does anyone have a list a things to buy to add an additional battery?
Ohio- hook an amp up to a cap, turn it on and see how long it stays on. Assuming the alternator can keep up with the demand, there won't be much sag, but the charging voltage at idle is less than 14.4 and every accessory turned on adds significantly to the amount of sag that can occur. A battery makes more difference than a cap.
Quincy- once a cap is charged, it won't have any effect on the battery so, unless it's leaky, it won't kill the battery by itself. .
bobbyB
03-09-2006, 02:48 PM
Hey Quincy
Do you have any more pics showing a better angle of the shelf up under the bow?
my '96 might just need one.
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 09:40 PM
If the two batteries are not isolated the voltage loss could be happening between the batteries themselves and not caused by the system. The key here is to isolate the source of the loss. A Fluke is your friend. Hook the the entire setup to just one battery and measure the amp draw(if any) and then begin unhooking components one by one until the draw disappears. Isolate the different systems (ie boat, stereo, engine, etc) to make it easier.
I highly doubt it is the cap and suspect the batteries themselves. The argument pro/con about caps is as long and opinionated as the oil brand/weight issue. If you can only afford one; a second battery is a much better option than a Cap. I am really indifferent on the issue and only use a capacitor because of the severe current draw my amps are capable of requiring and it makes me feel better having an instantaneous source of power within 8" of the amps. "Theoretically" I think they help but I have never "heard" the difference in any of my systems.Diesel I have a perko switch that my batteries are hook to but like the way you did your setup. Got my isolation relay today and will be rewiring the system Sunday.( hopefully) This may be a dumb question Diesel but what is a Fluke. Also been thinking about my battery situation that you question, both are new last summer ( purchased a month apart, two difference sides if that matters) but they are Napa brand Marina deep cycle batteries and I have to say that I haven't had very good luck with their batteries. So I have been kicking it around and make the decision today about spending the money for two Blue tops. (oh well there goes my new water ski money) :rolleyes:
Leroy
03-09-2006, 09:54 PM
I'm enjoying reading about this.
How about a car audio battery?
http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/car/accessories/capacitors.htm#xb
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 09:55 PM
What are the units ie. the Sirius mounted to on the left side? Is there a panel or are they mounted on to the side of the boat? I need to mount my Sirius and another amp under the seat!That's a piece of 3/16 Plexiglas that I mounted behind the stern light bar holder on the bottom and ran two 1/8 bolts behind the rub rail on top. Tower amp, Alpine XM, Sub Cap mounted on it with no problems. Like that you can still see the carpet behind and that it's not a permanent install, for when I sale to upgrade to a newer MC. ;)
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 10:07 PM
Hey Quincy
Do you have any more pics showing a better angle of the shelf up under the bow?
my '96 might just need one.
I'm confused with your question. I have a open bow. :confused: The pic is from under the observers seat. But if you need more pics I can take some tomorrow.
Fluke is a brand of test equipment, like multi-meters. There are a lot of brands out there and there's a wide range of functions available on them. The ones needed for this kind of work are voltage, current (high current needs a clamp since most meters are limited to 10 amps) and resistance.
You said you have had bad luck with NAPA batteries- how many times have your batteries been totally dead? Deep cycle doesn't mean dead, it means the voltage has dropped to 10.5 V. When a lead/acid battery goes dead or just gets old, the chemical composition of the electrolyte and lead plates changes. The lead sulfide changes to lead sulphate and some of this is shed by the plates, accumulating at the bottom of the case and causing the individual plates in the affected cells to short circuit, reducing their ability to take and hold a charge. Optima and other batteries of that type don't have their electrolyte in a liquid form and that's the reason they can be oriented in any position. It's also the reason they can experience more charge/discharge cycles until they can't hold a charge. The battery needed for an audio system is one that has the most reserve capacity, rated in Amp-hours. This is what it sounds like- 180 amp-hours is 180 amps for one hour, or any combination that equals 180.
quincyfirefighter
03-09-2006, 11:08 PM
Fluke is a brand of test equipment, like multi-meters. There are a lot of brands out there and there's a wide range of functions available on them. The ones needed for this kind of work are voltage, current (high current needs a clamp since most meters are limited to 10 amps) and resistance.
You said you have had bad luck with NAPA batteries- how many times have your batteries been totally dead? Deep cycle doesn't mean dead, it means the voltage has dropped to 10.5 V. When a lead/acid battery goes dead or just gets old, the chemical composition of the electrolyte and lead plates changes. The lead sulfide changes to lead sulphate and some of this is shed by the plates, accumulating at the bottom of the case and causing the individual plates in the affected cells to short circuit, reducing their ability to take and hold a charge. Optima and other batteries of that type don't have their electrolyte in a liquid form and that's the reason they can be oriented in any position. It's also the reason they can experience more charge/discharge cycles until they can't hold a charge. The battery needed for an audio system is one that has the most reserve capacity, rated in Amp-hours. This is what it sounds like- 180 amp-hours is 180 amps for one hour, or any combination that equals 180.OK now I know what a Fluke is :cool: Had bad luck with napa batteries in my blazer and RV in the last two or three years . Just didn't last. Nothing against them, just not my first pick anymore. Thanks for all the help. Will get back to you when I finish with the relay and wiring. Will take pics :D Nice to know that you guy are here ;)
bobbyB
03-10-2006, 10:37 AM
My bad Quincy
I thought I was looking at a closed bow with a shelf built into the front of it. Still...... it's got me thinking. Anyone out there ever build a shelf like that?
kalanic
03-13-2006, 06:07 PM
OK I know that this should be posted in the electrical forum sorry. Problem is that my 1 Farad Cap is draining my second battery down. The manufacturer wiring said to wire the power lead directly to the battery. Didn't think with the stereo and amps disconnected by a perko switch that the Cap would still be pulling. Does anyone else have a Cap in their stereo system and what am I doing wrong :confused: Also do I really need one. Anyone????? What do you think Diesel? I am working on rewiring my battery setup to your dual battery relay system :worthy: but don't think that will help with the cap problem. Thanks for any help you all can give. Here's a pic. Sorry the wiring wasn't finished in that pic ... :o
The is a great lookin install. What did you use to install the plexi-glass to the sidewall?