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Workin' 4 Toys
02-24-2006, 12:30 PM
Let's say a kid is in a sport (any). Any age between 1 and 18.
Hypothetical questions.
Should both players/teams receive the same awards for winning and losing?
Should scores be kept secret from them?

Granite_33
02-24-2006, 12:32 PM
No, no, and Hell no!!!

The same award for winning and losing breeds mediocrity........just like affirmative action.

The question about keeping scores from them......is quite frankly....beyond me.

Kids need to learn how to win and how to lose. That is life.

bcampbe7
02-24-2006, 12:34 PM
Teach them sportsmanship. You can have sportsmanship along with awards and scores.

maristarman
02-24-2006, 12:38 PM
JMHO.

I think for real little kids, maybe up to age 8 or 9 you don't keep score.

Not because of any "You don't want to hurt the kids feelings" type of psychological mumbo jumbo.

By that age kids have a lot of experience with winning and losing and doing well and not doing well (school grades, games played with siblings or with kids at school, etc.)

After a decade of coaching youth sports, I can tell you from experience that with team sports, when kids have to learn a complex set of rules, and need to learn to cooperate in a team environment, it's a lot easier to get them to focus on doing the fundaments CORRECTLY when they are NOT worrying about the scoreboard.

Just my :twocents:

Maristar210
02-24-2006, 12:40 PM
Teach them sportsmanship. You can have sportsmanship along with awards and scores.

I agree. Sportsmanship first and the competition associated with winning and losing establishes both reward and disappointment for your efforts or lack there of..

this from a little league coach who has to bite his tongue five times a game......

Steve

ski_king
02-24-2006, 12:41 PM
Should both players/teams receive the same awards for winning and losing?
Only for the beginners, like T-Ball. Some kids develop slower and you dont want to discourage them first time out.


Should scores be kept secret from them?
They might as well keep the score, everybody keeps track of it anyway.
I have watched a lot of childrens basketball games and the score was always kept although if one team would be running away with the game, they would turn off the score board for the rest of the game.

rodltg2
02-24-2006, 12:42 PM
you dont get paid the same as a good employee for sucking at your job.
setting a bad example for kids early

jmyers
02-24-2006, 01:02 PM
My son plays T ball and they don't keep score, but I don't think it is bad to get them started early! I don't think you should put too much emphasis on the score but I think the kids are out there to win the game it gives them a want to go out there and try harder! I will make sure they all get an award or trophy for all thier hard work though!

tommcat
02-24-2006, 01:46 PM
NO NO NO. the whole idea of "winning isnt everything" and "it doesnt matter who wins or loses" that we teach kids these days is stupid. if winning isnt important to you then dont take up any activity that is competetive. teach them to knit or something.
second place is the first loser, and settling for anything less is a great way to teach them that you dont have to try.
i've been playing hockey for longer than i can remember now, and i still play in beer leagues. these days (over 30) but it doesnt mean i dont still give 100% and want to win every game.

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 01:54 PM
I have watched a lot of children's basketball games and the score was always kept although if one team would be running away with the game, they would turn off the score board for the rest of the game.

What good does turning off the scoreboard do? Only remind you that you are getting shallacked so bad that they won't even show it.

Up until this year, I have refereed College, High School, Middle School and rec basketball. Year before last they instituted a rule in Georgia High School Sports that if you are getting beat by X number of points at Y point in the game they are going to run the clock for the rest of the contest. Now, I have been on the losing end of some major whippins' from my days in High School Football and at the end of the game we got what was coming to us for not being as well coached (it's always the coach's fault) than our opponents. I would have been more embarrassed if they ran the clock for the 4th quarter than the beating itself.

Now, as a referee, blowouts are the most difficult thing to officiate. You have team A who is getting hacked on the way to the basket but you don't want to keep calling fouls on team B because they are way behind, but you call enough to keep the game under control. With team B taking a beating you have to watch tempers as players are embarrassed and will be quicker to fight if a situation arises, and they often do.

Another thing about this rule is that you are taking away valuable minutes from 2nd and 3rd stringers. They are going to have to play eventually.

In closing, I say keep score, like or not it builds character.

Workin' 4 Toys
02-24-2006, 02:58 PM
It just seems there is such a large push to make things "equal" for both "teams".
I understand that people get a wrapped up in a game if their team loses, and feelings get hurt. But do they not understand the rest of their lives they will be challenged to the same extent, in fun and work. Or is it that people just think kids don't need the "lesson" at an early age.

I am glad to see there are real world coaches/teachers commenting here too.

I have been concerned about this for quite some time, and it disturbs me. Especially in years ahead.

jmyers
02-24-2006, 03:11 PM
NO NO NO. the whole idea of "winning isnt everything" and "it doesnt matter who wins or loses" that we teach kids these days is stupid. if winning isnt important to you then dont take up any activity that is competetive. teach them to knit or something.
second place is the first loser, and settling for anything less is a great way to teach them that you dont have to try.
i've been playing hockey for longer than i can remember now, and i still play in beer leagues. these days (over 30) but it doesnt mean i dont still give 100% and want to win every game.
Slight threadjack! I am actually playing hockrey in Hawaii in April with my dad in a thirty and older league Hawaii beaches, Hockey, and alot of drinking! :D And we will be keeping score!! (In many ways) :toast:

tommcat
02-24-2006, 03:13 PM
hockey in hawaii??? that should be interesting

jrcarte78
02-24-2006, 03:15 PM
**On Soapbox**

I think the sportmanship and competition aspect are equally important. This(not keeping score) seems to me to be another situation where some parent doesn't want to take the responsibility of teaching a lesson to their child. They don't want to have to take the time to teach good sportmaship or competitiveness--and the correct balance between the two--so they just don't want to keep score so their job is easier. I think alot of our societies problems today come from this very thing--lazy parents not wanting to deal with actually raising their child.

**Off Soapbox**

:twocents:

jmyers
02-24-2006, 03:16 PM
**On Soapbox**

I think the sportmanship and competition aspect are equally important. This(not keeping score) seems to me to be another situation where some parent doesn't want to take the responsibility of teaching a lesson to their child. They don't want to have to take the time to teach good sportmaship or competitiveness--and the correct balance between the two--so they just don't want to keep score so their job is easier. I think alot of our societies problems today come from this very thing--lazy parents not wanting to deal with actually raising their child.

**Off Soapbox**

:twocents:
AMEN!! :headbang:

bucky
02-24-2006, 03:29 PM
In my son's under 7 soccer league, we keep score and teach sportsmanship. Without the score, team sports are just playdates. If you don't want your kids to be disappointed, take them to the park and let them play on the slide.:twocents:

6balls
02-24-2006, 03:29 PM
WOW! :eek3:

Okay, the very suggestion that equal awards would even be considered speaks volumes to how far - in the wrong direction we have gone as a society.

This type of SOCIALIST CRAP is caters to the lowest common denominator and is in its very nature counter productive. By clearly separating "Winners" and "Losers" we demonstrate that in life there are rewards for success and consequences for failure. This does not mean that the "loser" is a failure, but rather that they need to work harder or maybe they should look to developing other talents.

I never exceeded in traditional sports, but I sure did find success in Water and Snow Skiing.

The idea that we should protect our children from the idea of losing is dead wrong. However, it is pervasive in our schools and communities, all the way through our Universities and Colleges. This leads to 25 year old adults standing in dumbfounded amazement when there *** gets canned for being a "Loser" and wondering why the "other guy" got a promotion.

Take that Purple Dinosaur BS and go hang out with Mr. Rogers in Make Believe Land! :rant:

maristarman
02-24-2006, 03:30 PM
**On Soapbox**

I think the sportmanship and competition aspect are equally important. This(not keeping score) seems to me to be another situation where some parent doesn't want to take the responsibility of teaching a lesson to their child. They don't want to have to take the time to teach good sportmaship or competitiveness--and the correct balance between the two--so they just don't want to keep score so their job is easier. I think alot of our societies problems today come from this very thing--lazy parents not wanting to deal with actually raising their child.

**Off Soapbox**

:twocents:

Wow!

So if a parent puts their 4 or 5 year old in a league that focuses more on actually teaching kids how to do things, and do them the right way, they are somehow lazy?

I guess it's a pretty sad reflection on our society that people can't just do things for "fun" anymore.

Or better yet, that there are parents out there that can't comprehend that and that someone must always "win" or always "lose".

I can't tell you how sad and pathetic it is to see the parents of little 5 or 6 year old kids ranting and raving on the sideline because their kids team is "losing" and they completely miss the joy the kids feel because they know they're doing something for the first time, or doing something better than they've ever done before.

I'm not talking about the high school scoreboard being turned off, or the running clock situation. I agree with the points regarding older kids.

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 03:31 PM
What irks me the most is everybody is concerned about little johnny not getting a complex because his t-ball team lost, but when little johnny turns 12 and he learns to throw a curve ball and his parents/coach let him throw it, then his elbow hurts for the rest of his life, no body wants to take responsibility for that.

I just love the armor that kids these days go up to the plate with. I wore less equipment playing football than some of these kids do today. I can't believe that they can see or hit the ball with all that stuff on.

Leroy
02-24-2006, 03:33 PM
I think there is a age where participation and development of the ability of the kids and a love for the game is the most important thing and score is not kept. You don't want to cast a 6 yr old as a loser (although I hear parents say things like that every week). At some point in age and with certain leagues you do have the skill and mental development to start keeping score playing for the win.


At our travel soccer club we are looking at making everything up to U11 participation. We have the problem where we have P1, P2 and P3 teams are formed at age 9. P1 teams get the better coach, parents that are more involved and driven, etc. We would like to have equal1, equal2, and equal3 teams until they are say 12 and then either have try-outs and play in ranked teams or have a pool concept. Kids change a lot mentally and physically year to year. Some years they grow out (by 15 pounds or more) and some years they grow up (by 4-5 inches). Some years they play to win and other years it's about having fun.

bucky
02-24-2006, 03:38 PM
My child does learn how to do things right without a score. During practice. He also learns that someone always wins and someone always loses. You don't sulk when you lose and you don't gloat when you win. Those parents you see throwing tantrums never learned this.

Wow!

So if a parent puts their 4 or 5 year old in a league that focuses more on actually teaching kids how to do things, and do them the right way, they are somehow lazy?

I guess it's a pretty sad reflection on our society that people can't just do things for "fun" anymore.

Or better yet, that there are parents out there that can't comprehend that and that someone must always "win" or always "lose".

I can't tell you how sad and pathetic it is to see the parents of little 5 or 6 year old kids ranting and raving on the sideline because their kids team is "losing" and they completely miss the joy the kids feel because they know they're doing something for the first time, or doing something better than they've ever done before.

I'm not talking about the high school scoreboard being turned off, or the running clock situation. I agree with the points regarding older kids.

jmyers
02-24-2006, 03:39 PM
Wow!

So if a parent puts their 4 or 5 year old in a league that focuses more on actually teaching kids how to do things, and do them the right way, they are somehow lazy?

I guess it's a pretty sad reflection on our society that people can't just do things for "fun" anymore.

Or better yet, that there are parents out there that can't comprehend that and that someone must always "win" or always "lose".

I can't tell you how sad and pathetic it is to see the parents of little 5 or 6 year old kids ranting and raving on the sideline because their kids team is "losing" and they completely miss the joy the kids feel because they know they're doing something for the first time, or doing something better than they've ever done before.

I'm not talking about the high school scoreboard being turned off, or the running clock situation. I agree with the points regarding older kids.
Then why put them in ORGANIZED team sports? When you are on a team the goal is to WIN!! I don't pressure my son to win JUST TO BE HIS BEST!! And by doing that he want's to win and help his team win!! He wants to go out and practice in the yard (which we did on Sunday) already to get him ready for yes T-ball!! I will fully stand by what you teach your children now will stick with them forever and to WIN in life!! BE their best at what they do not just half A** it!! No soap box here, just telling it like it is!! :mad:

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 03:39 PM
Here is a question that came up when a co-worker just walked into my office to talk about his sons and t-ball tryouts and the 15 kids per team in the outfield during games.

Little Johnny is on a t-ball team, he is a little slower to develop than little Jimmy, Johnny splits time in the outfield with little Eric who is also developing more slowly. Now, both Eric and Johnny get to bat in their turn, however, they alternate innings playing in the outfield. At what point do little Eric and little Johnny realize that they are being slighted by rotating innings? My guess is when their Dads complain on the way home in the car or at the dinner table. There is responsibility with the coach to make sure that everything is presented in a positive light. But, kids and their innocence and instinctive wanting to be part of the team should be capitalized on. If your kid doesn't like team sports, there are several other activities for them .

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 03:44 PM
Here is a question, what about the thrill that the members of the team with 6 loses and no wins gets when they win a game. To them it is like winning the world series.

Leroy - I don't think I understand what you are saying. Are you proposing that until the age of 13 that kids shouldn't be involved in a win/lose situation around sport?

maristarman
02-24-2006, 03:52 PM
Then why put them in ORGANIZED team sports? When you are on a team the goal is to WIN!! I don't pressure my son to win JUST TO BE HIS BEST!! And by doing that he want's to win and help his team win!! He wants to go out and practice in the yard (which we did on Sunday) already to get him ready for yes T-ball!! I will fully stand by what you teach your children now will stick with them forever and to WIN in life!! BE their best at what they do not just half A** it!! No soap box here, just telling it like it is!! :mad:

So I'm really trying to understand this.

For your son "JUST TO BE HIS BEST!!" you think you need a scoreboard?

That is where the BS comes into this.

Lets say your son is playing a little one on one basketball, and he gets stuck with playing Michael Jordan. :eek:

I'm guessing when you look at the scoreboard, MJ will have beaten him.

What in the H*^@ does the scoreboard show you in regards to whether or not your son "DID HIS BEST"?

It doesn't show you crap.

That is especially true in team sports when you are dealing with little children. Again, not high school kids, but little kids. You put 5 and 6 year olds on a team and an "old" six year old can be a foot taller than a "young" 5 year old.

I guess when that 6 year old continually scores on the kid he's a foot taller than and almost two years older than it's a good thing because it will build "character" in the 5 year old?

Get a grip. All it will do is demoralize him (or her), and possibly make them never want to play the sport again.

If anyone wants to be the "Great Santini" with their little son or daughter it's their business, but I'm letting everyone know that in over a decade of coaching these little kids, that type of parental attitude never does anything to build up that kids self esteem.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not talking about teenagers here, I'm staying within the confines of little kids. And regarding the first question about "Why put them in organized sports?" How about to teach them about teamwork?

richardsoncd
02-24-2006, 03:54 PM
Not keeping score takes the drive out of the game. I played sports from pee-wee ball through college and have seen some unbelievable plays made by kids & adults when they had the "leave it all on the field" mantality (spp??). If you don't keep score at a young age how will children ever learn to be good losers and most importantly good winners. I have felt better about some loses than I did about some wins, it's part of life not just sports.:twocents:

ski_king
02-24-2006, 03:57 PM
Slight threadjack here. I also posted this link in another thread.

Make you feel good after watching the news clip about the underdog having the day of his life.
Check out the video.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/02/23/earlyshow/main1339324.shtml?CMP=OTC-RSSFeed&source=RSS&attr=HOME_1339324

jrcarte78
02-24-2006, 03:58 PM
Wow!

So if a parent puts their 4 or 5 year old in a league that focuses more on actually teaching kids how to do things, and do them the right way, they are somehow lazy?

I guess it's a pretty sad reflection on our society that people can't just do things for "fun" anymore.

Or better yet, that there are parents out there that can't comprehend that and that someone must always "win" or always "lose".

I can't tell you how sad and pathetic it is to see the parents of little 5 or 6 year old kids ranting and raving on the sideline because their kids team is "losing" and they completely miss the joy the kids feel because they know they're doing something for the first time, or doing something better than they've ever done before.

I'm not talking about the high school scoreboard being turned off, or the running clock situation. I agree with the points regarding older kids.

I'm sorry, maybe my point was taken the wrong way. I'm saying that there needs to be a BALANCE between sportsmanship and competitiveness. Neither one needs to be taken out of the equation or over emphasized. My point is that these are two equally important traits for an individual to have.

And, if a parent has to take their child out of a competitive league b/c they are not getting taught the basics i.e. blocking and tackling I'm afraid the youth sports program involved has some much deeper issues.

I'm also in no way stating that Pee Wee football should become the Super Bowl. Children should always have fun playing sports(and doing everything else for that matter) but they can be taught things relating to life while doing these "fun" things.

And as for these parents that live vicariously through their children(I have seen my share as I'm sure everyone else has), possibly because they lacked athletic ability as a child and never succeeded at sports, they are not BALANCING the two things I'm saying are equally important--sportsmanship AND competitiveness.

maristarman
02-24-2006, 04:00 PM
Not keeping score takes the drive out of the game. I played sports from pee-wee ball through college and have seen some unbelievable plays made by kids & adults when they had the "leave it all on the field" mantality (spp??). If you don't keep score at a young age how will children ever learn to be good losers and most importantly good winners. I have felt better about some loses than I did about some wins, it's part of life not just sports.:twocents:

My experience hasn't proven that to be true. I show up to run a practice and there are kids already there and playing. And when practice ends the kids are still out there on the court. Playing

They just want to play.

Kids just like to play to play.

Its the parents that teach them that they need to play "to win".

Teaching kids to be good winners and losers is the parents job. Not the coaches.

I'll tell you something else, teaching kids respect for authority is a parent's job, not the coaches.

I can tell you within 15 minutes of getting my team at the beginning of each season which kids parents are raising their child to be responsible and respectful and which parents are spoiling their kids rotten, do not discipline their children and not teaching them a darn thing.

Leroy
02-24-2006, 04:08 PM
Yes and no, no score for U11 and under travel soccer tournament play. Leagues still keep score at this age. Several states already do this for tournaments. Reason is that they feel the tournament situation is extra competitive for young kids already playing in competitive travel soccer so this gives them a couple of years adjustment and then score is taken.

For our rec program under 9 years old they do not keep score during the season, but have a tournament at the end of the season where score is kept. Logic is develop skills for the season (~10 games) and then test them at the end with 1-3 games.

Even if there is no score kept, kids know the score, it's the parents that don't need to know, ever hear of the worst ride home story.

Leroy - I don't think I understand what you are saying. Are you proposing that until the age of 13 that kids shouldn't be involved in a win/lose situation around sport?

jrcarte78
02-24-2006, 04:09 PM
My experience hasn't proven that to be true. I show up to run a practice and there are kids already there and playing. And when practice ends the kids are still out there on the court. Playing

They just want to play.

Kids just like to play to play.

Its the parents that teach them that they need to play "to win".

Teaching kids to be good winners and losers is the parents job. Not the coaches.

I'll tell you something else, teaching kids respect for authority is a parent's job, not the coaches.

I can tell you within 15 minutes of getting my team at the beginning of each season which kids parents are raising their child to be responsible and respectful and which parents are spoiling their kids rotten, do not discipline their children and not teaching them a darn thing.

That was exactly my point in the first post I had. PARENTS are responsible for instilling the right stuff in their kids. They need to tell their kids that there's always a "next game" if they lost doing their best. Or, that they did a great job and enjoy the win. All their hard work paid off with success.

Workin' 4 Toys
02-24-2006, 04:10 PM
So, if there was two games being played, Hypothetical again....

One game has 8 year old boys playing soccer, with a scoreboard(on).
One game has 8 year old boys playing soccer, without a scoreboard.

Who plays to win?

jmyers
02-24-2006, 04:12 PM
So I'm really trying to understand this.

For your son "JUST TO BE HIS BEST!!" you think you need a scoreboard?

That is where the BS comes into this.

Lets say your son is playing a little one on one basketball, and he gets stuck with playing Michael Jordan. :eek:

I'm guessing when you look at the scoreboard, MJ will have beaten him.

What in the H*^@ does the scoreboard show you in regards to whether or not your son "DID HIS BEST"?

It doesn't show you crap.

That is especially true in team sports when you are dealing with little children. Again, not high school kids, but little kids. You put 5 and 6 year olds on a team and an "old" six year old can be a foot taller than a "young" 5 year old.

I guess when that 6 year old continually scores on the kid he's a foot taller than and almost two years older than it's a good thing because it will build "character" in the 5 year old?

Get a grip. All it will do is demoralize him (or her), and possibly make them never want to play the sport again.

If anyone wants to be the "Great Santini" with their little son or daughter it's their business, but I'm letting everyone know that in over a decade of coaching these little kids, that type of parental attitude never does anything to build up that kids self esteem.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not talking about teenagers here, I'm staying within the confines of little kids. And regarding the first question about "Why put them in organized sports?" How about to teach them about teamwork?
My point If I can make it, is if you teach your child to do their best they will! If they do their best on a team the team will do their best together, without a score how do they really know what they did or didn't achieve as an individual or a team? And I am not a coach and it is my job as a parent to teach respect, and a true appreciation for the game all of it! Not just the part about "did you have fun" if they weren't having fun you would know, if you are a good parent! Fun is number one, but as the old saying "it's not if you win or lose it's how you play the game" How do you really know if there isn't a score? :confused:

richardsoncd
02-24-2006, 04:19 PM
My experience hasn't proven that to be true. I show up to run a practice and there are kids already there and playing. And when practice ends the kids are still out there on the court. Playing

They just want to play.

Kids just like to play to play.

Its the parents that teach them that they need to play "to win".

Teaching kids to be good winners and losers is the parents job. Not the coaches.

I'll tell you something else, teaching kids respect for authority is a parent's job, not the coaches.

I can tell you within 15 minutes of getting my team at the beginning of each season which kids parents are raising their child to be responsible and respectful and which parents are spoiling their kids rotten, do not discipline their children and not teaching them a darn thing.

I do see your point, and as I saw...those who excelled as they got older in the high school level and then in the college level had an "inbedded" sense of respect, work ethic, and character...probably taught by there parents...in some cases they got it from coaches when there parents weren't there for them (diffrent point all together), I feel that emphasis shouldn't be on the score, but it should not be eliminated...it is the first chance for many children to expererience competition besides pick up ball...and in team situations you learn that others depend on you and you depend on others for a common goal, regardless of the outcome. If you loose it helps you realize that you have more to work on and you can always get better, if you win...you do so with grace. It is the coaches responsibility to make sure that as a child you don't take loosing as a sign of failure.

*by the way great discussion topic

tommcat
02-24-2006, 04:19 PM
teaching a kid to play for fun vs playing to win??? i've always found that winning IS fun

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 04:19 PM
After putting some more thought to this issue I have come to the conclusion that it is the parent's responsibility to find the scenario that is best suited to his/her child and place them there. If that means no keeping score, fine, if it means ultra competitive fine.

While there are some parents that are going to choose ultra competitive and their kids will suffer, other kids will suffer just as much in the play league.

The real issue, as I see it, is that parents are trying to dictate what other parents should and shouldn't do using the best interests of the kids as an excuse. This is not OK. I have absolutely no right to tell you how to raise your children, what schools to send them to, what leagues to sign them up for and you have no right to tell me what to do with my coon dog. :D

maristarman
02-24-2006, 04:26 PM
My point If I can make it, is if you teach your child to do their best they will! If they do their best on a team the team will do their best together, without a score how do they really know what they did or didn't achieve as an individual or a team? And I am not a coach and it is my job as a parent to teach respect, and a true appreciation for the game all of it! Not just the part about "did you have fun" if they weren't having fun you would know, if you are a good parent! Fun is number one, but as the old saying "it's not if you win or lose it's how you play the game" How do you really know if there isn't a score? :confused:


Usually after the first practice (unless someone is hurt or sick that first day) I know what skills each player has, and what they need to work on. I don't need a scoreboard to know if they're playing their best.

Some days they'll play someone a lot better than themselves. Other days they'll be better than the guys guarding them.

But using your logic, as long as your team always plays inferior competition, it's all good.

I've had teams beat the crud out of the team they've been playing, but had the players not giving maximum effort (or doing their best, or demonstrating sound fundamentals) and I've had kids play the best games of their lives, but lose to a better opponent.

But the scoreboard didn't tell me any of that information.

Thank you for asking that question.

It really helped me state my case as clearly as I could.

jrcarte78
02-24-2006, 04:27 PM
After putting some more thought to this issue I have come to the conclusion that it is the parent's responsibility to find the scenario that is best suited to his/her child and place them there. If that means no keeping score, fine, if it means ultra competitive fine.

While there are some parents that are going to choose ultra competitive and their kids will suffer, other kids will suffer just as much in the play league.

The real issue, as I see it, is that parents are trying to dictate what other parents should and shouldn't do using the best interests of the kids as an excuse. This is not OK. I have absolutely no right to tell you how to raise your children, what schools to send them to, what leagues to sign them up for and you have no right to tell me what to do with my coon dog. :D

Well said.... I agree 150%

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 04:29 PM
Yes and no, no score for U11 and under travel soccer tournament play. Leagues still keep score at this age. Several states already do this for tournaments. Reason is that they feel the tournament situation is extra competitive for young kids already playing in competitive travel soccer so this gives them a couple of years adjustment and then score is taken.

For our rec program under 9 years old they do not keep score during the season, but have a tournament at the end of the season where score is kept. Logic is develop skills for the season (~10 games) and then test them at the end with 1-3 games.

Even if there is no score kept, kids know the score, it's the parents that don't need to know, ever hear of the worst ride home story.

I believe that this whole traveling team thing has gotten way out of control. What ever happened to just playing league ball? I have seen some of these outfits around here with baseball, they have professional quality uniforms, play ball somewhere 4 to 5 days a week, practice the other 2, get a day off and this goes on for 8+ months out of the year.

Hoosier Bob
02-24-2006, 04:29 PM
Teach them young there is a difference between winning and losing. Play as hard as possible and between the lines. Understand and learn from your losses and strenghten with your victories. I lose today I do not get paid and daddy won't buy me an ice cream cone. Competitive children will be competitive regardless of a score or the satisfaction of winning or losing. Some people want to win every down whether or not someone says it is politically correct or not. Short story is: keep score, winners and losers so all know what they have to do to better themselves in the future. Socialistic football? Why try at all? Great way to start Friday WFT! :toast:

richardsoncd
02-24-2006, 04:32 PM
After putting some more thought to this issue I have come to the conclusion that it is the parent's responsibility to find the scenario that is best suited to his/her child and place them there. If that means no keeping score, fine, if it means ultra competitive fine.

While there are some parents that are going to choose ultra competitive and their kids will suffer, other kids will suffer just as much in the play league.

The real issue, as I see it, is that parents are trying to dictate what other parents should and shouldn't do using the best interests of the kids as an excuse. This is not OK. I have absolutely no right to tell you how to raise your children, what schools to send them to, what leagues to sign them up for and you have no right to tell me what to do with my coon dog. :D

Chuck Norris could dictate what to do with your coon dog. :D

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 04:34 PM
Chuck Norris could dictate what to do with your coon dog. :D

ROFLMAO

Chuck Norris sleeps with the light on, not because he is afraid of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of him.

richardsoncd
02-24-2006, 04:35 PM
ROFLMAO

Chuck Norris sleeps with the light on, not because he is afraid of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of him.

Chuck Norris is my new ski partner because everyone knows:

The air around Chuck Norris is always a balmy 78 degrees.
:cool:

Wow...what a sled jack, probably my fault...sorry fellas. Back on subject, don't beat your kids if they lose.

Leroy
02-24-2006, 04:41 PM
Respectfully disagree for younger kids, because there at least ten other important life lessons to learn before you think about winning. Skills of the sport, respect for the game, coaches, and officials, how to play with a team, having fun, developing physically, developing emotionally, learning plays, on and on.

Again this is the younger kids, at some age you do keep score and it is important to have at least 10 other life lessons in your child for them to handle winning and losing.

I'm no expert in this area, but I've been around and coached my 3 kids on probably 20-25 different teams over the past 13 years and am presently on the our travel soccer club board of directors. Our club is consistently ranked in the top 10-20 of the nation for travel soccer. This is competitive, try out, rank, cut, win or be cut soccer getting you ready for college soccer. Many kids take private training in addition to the 3 times a week training and 2 games per weekend typically. It's getting where almost every player in our club can get a college scholarship if they want it.
http://www.carmelunited.org/xiglanews/templates/?a=987&z=113

I can't believe it, but I see too many kids burn out at 8 and 9 years old. If your kids are teenagers and playing and loving a sport I think that is great. Playing at a national level then even better, but not required.

Then why put them in ORGANIZED team sports? When you are on a team the goal is to WIN!! I don't pressure my son to win JUST TO BE HIS BEST!! And by doing that he want's to win and help his team win!! He wants to go out and practice in the yard (which we did on Sunday) already to get him ready for yes T-ball!! I will fully stand by what you teach your children now will stick with them forever and to WIN in life!! BE their best at what they do not just half A** it!! No soap box here, just telling it like it is!! :mad:

maristarman
02-24-2006, 04:43 PM
YEAH.

What Leroy said.

Hey Leroy, I wonder how many people will give your statement more credibility (whether consciously or subconsciously) because of your teams winning "nationally ranked" status.

Even if your team sucked I'd agree with you. :D

jmyers
02-24-2006, 04:44 PM
Usually after the first practice (unless someone is hurt or sick that first day) I know what skills each player has, and what they need to work on. I don't need a scoreboard to know if they're playing their best.

Some days they'll play someone a lot better than themselves. Other days they'll be better than the guys guarding them.

But using your logic, as long as your team always plays inferior competition, it's all good.

I've had teams beat the crud out of the team they've been playing, but had the players not giving maximum effort (or doing their best, or demonstrating sound fundamentals) and I've had kids play the best games of their lives, but lose to a better opponent.

But the scoreboard didn't tell me any of that information.

Thank you for asking that question.

It really helped me state my case as clearly as I could.
I also believe in teaching your children to be a team player, so being that said I don't think a score is going to tell how well your individual child played, but I do think it tell's how the team played and gives them a reason to strive to be a better team, and develop their skills! I again don't think you discourage a loss but encourage a win and how they can achieve that! They don't keep score now but I wouldn't have a problem with it. :twocents:

Leroy
02-24-2006, 04:46 PM
Very true! This is a great discussion!

After putting some more thought to this issue I have come to the conclusion that it is the parent's responsibility to find the scenario that is best suited to his/her child and place them there. If that means no keeping score, fine, if it means ultra competitive fine.

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 04:47 PM
, respect for the game, coaches, and officials

Respect for Officials....yeah right ;)

I though that is why you pay your 5 dollars to get in, to yell at the officials.....that is until I throw you out. :D

Leroy
02-24-2006, 04:54 PM
You are right, I didn't really mean officials, they are there to make bad calls and get yelled at by the parents!:uglyhamme



Respect for Officials....yeah right ;)

I though that is why you pay your 5 dollars to get in, to yell at the officials.....that is until I throw you out. :D

Hoosier Bob
02-24-2006, 05:00 PM
I don't think the problem is winning or losing! I believe the problem is with the lessons that are taught to our children by the parents or coaches upon winning or losing. Children should be taught to handle both and that there are many victories in every loss and as many losses in every victory. We train, study and prepare to put ourselves in the most favorable position possible as does our competition. :D So I guess what I am saying is: You are all wrong! ;)

jmyers
02-24-2006, 05:03 PM
I don't think the problem is winning or losing! I believe the problem is with the lessons that are taught to our children by the parents or coaches upon winning or losing. Children should be taught to handle both and that there are many victories in every loss and as many losses in every victory. We train, study and prepare to put ourselves in the most favorable position possible as does our competition. :D So I guess what I am saying is: You are all wrong! ;)
Just don't let your child play Michael Jordan and everything will be fine! :firejump: And keep all kids that are a foot taller away from them! :wavey:

Hoosier Bob
02-24-2006, 05:05 PM
Physical and home field advantages! I smell a new thread! Every one in the crowd must wear restricter plates that limit shouts to below 90db! I am smellin' what you are cookin' Myers!Just don't let your child play Michael Jordan and everything will be fine! :firejump: And keep all kids that are a foot taller away from them! :wavey:

jmyers
02-24-2006, 05:08 PM
Physical and home field advantages! I smell a new thread! Every one in the crowd must where restricter plates that limit shouts to below 90db! I am smellin' what you are cookin' Myers!
And did I forget to mention my 4 year old hits overhand pitch in T-ball because anything else is too slow! :D Mabey that is where the competive side is coming from! :noface:

Gloves Off Now! DING DING!!

Hoosier Bob
02-24-2006, 05:11 PM
Nothing wrong with challenging your children as long as we recognize when it is too much. Some kids eat it up and some don't. :D And did I forget to mention my 4 year old hits overhand pitch in T-ball because anything else is too slow! :D Mabey that is where the competive side is coming from! :noface:

Gloves Off Now! DING DING!!

maristarman
02-24-2006, 05:20 PM
And did I forget to mention my 4 year old hits overhand pitch in T-ball because anything else is too slow! :D Mabey that is where the competive side is coming from! :noface:

Gloves Off Now! DING DING!!


Just make sure that when your 4 year old comes up against the 4 year old that can throw a curveball and he strikes out every time that you do the honorable thing and tell him that he sucks.

Remember, it's important that kids learn that they won't always win.

DING DING!!

It never seems to fail that what starts out as an interesting exchange of ideas somehow degrades into ridiculousness.

Oh well. Have a nice weekend guys.

:wavey:

jmyers
02-24-2006, 05:26 PM
Just make sure that when your 4 year old comes up against the 4 year old that can throw a curveball and he strikes out every time that you do the honorable thing and tell him that he sucks.

Remember, it's important that kids learn that they won't always win.

DING DING!!

It never seems to fail that what starts out as an interesting exchange of ideas somehow degrades into ridiculousness.

Oh well. Have a nice weekend guys.

:wavey:
Until you started throwing around "your will" and trying to tell good parents your 10 steps to being coach of the year in a what I would have to say a demeaning way about it, I was explaining my points and putting my two cents in the conversation!! You should watch your words before they come back to bite you!

maristarman
02-24-2006, 05:32 PM
Until you started throwing around "your will" and trying to tell good parents your 10 steps to being coach of the year in a what I would have to say a demeaning way about it, I was explaining my points and putting my two cents in the conversation!! You should watch your words before they come back to bite you!

Wow, this just seems to be your day for being wrong.

I never posted any "10 steps" in this thread.

If you're going to get mad at someone for something they posted, make sure you get the right person.

Leroy had the 10 steps thing.

I just agreed with him.

Hoosier Bob
02-24-2006, 05:33 PM
The whole point is not to say he sucks but work on his inability to hit the freakin curve ball! Get those kids together with a little juice to the local baseball association and coach them both! Score/winning or losing is the least of our concerns. Check out some of those little league teams. Ruled by relationships and parental manipulations. One team always seems to be loaded but another team always plays harder and together to unseat them. Still a fun thread and all of our beliefs will be exposed! ;) Just make sure that when your 4 year old comes up against the 4 year old that can throw a curveball and he strikes out every time that you do the honorable thing and tell him that he sucks.

Remember, it's important that kids learn that they won't always win.

DING DING!!

It never seems to fail that what starts out as an interesting exchange of ideas somehow degrades into ridiculousness.

Oh well. Have a nice weekend guys.

:wavey:

Hoosier Bob
02-24-2006, 05:34 PM
Lets just ski! :(
PS. Remember everything sounds worse in a post or an email. All points are valid. I remember hearing that it was not Michael Jordan's parents that drove him but himself. Most parents do a good job of assessing the potential of their children. Some get surprised. We may be focused on a very small percentage of people when we make these politically influenced decisions.

jmyers
02-24-2006, 05:38 PM
Wow, this just seems to be your day for being wrong.

I never posted any "10 steps" in this thread.

If you're going to get mad at someone for something they posted, make sure you get the right person.

Leroy had the 10 steps thing.

I just agreed with him.
I know it was 10 life steps, not 10 steps of coaching!
F**K it! Time for a beer! I'm buying! :toast:

maristarman
02-24-2006, 06:13 PM
I know it was 10 life steps, not 10 steps of coaching!
F**K it! Time for a beer! I'm buying! :toast:


Pour me a tall cold one.


:toast:

Hoosier Bob
02-24-2006, 06:19 PM
I'll be right over guys! By the way, my kids can kick your kids arse! At least the 4 year old anyway! No offense!:D
Good time to take this to the, "It's Friday, Time for a Drink!"

Leroy
02-24-2006, 06:39 PM
I'm with ya! I've got the next round!



I know it was 10 life steps, not 10 steps of coaching!
F**K it! Time for a beer! I'm buying! :toast:

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 06:40 PM
Referee's always take bribes.....espically booze...:friday:

Leroy
02-24-2006, 06:43 PM
Can you travel to Indiana?

LakePirate
02-24-2006, 06:50 PM
Don't know much about soccer....my only real experience with it was during College we had the Club Team National Championship at Georgia Southern University. They paid me to sit there all day and watch. I would never take the abuse that Soccer Refs take, holy cow, any call they make is questioned. Basketball....now that is a different story.

jmyers
02-24-2006, 06:52 PM
Don't know much about soccer....my only real experience with it was during College we had the Club Team National Championship at Georgia Southern University. They paid me to sit there all day and watch. I would never take the abuse that Soccer Refs take, holy cow, any call they make is questioned. Basketball....now that is a different story.
Iv'e got a soccer picture for Ya! German Women's soccer team! I will forward it to the list-or Pm if you want it sooner!

X-45
02-24-2006, 06:55 PM
First off the kids usually know who won and who didn't. Turning off the score board just saves electricity. Keeping score for young kids is for the parents not the kids. Young kids are more focus on individual accomplishments than team score anyway. My kids are young and play soccer, football and basketball. At 4 thru 7 it is about building the very basic fundamentals, coordination, speed and the rules. Everybody thinks there kid is a great athlete until they see them run to first base and donít know were to go next. You set a 4 year old on the bench and youíll never see him play another season. The difference in a kids ability between the first and last game at this age is incredible. All of a sudden, usually in a game it will click and he will know what to do. After that the kid will be more focus on the game. And it stars all over next year. At this age you practice one hour per week. This hours is spent just teaching the fundamentals. The game takes about an hour. This is where the coach tries to keep the kids watching the game. Football and basketball, not so bad. Baseball, itís tough to keep a kid interested for an hour. Kids get enough grief from there parents and siblings. Believe it or not Moms are the worst to scream at kids during the game. Iím not even going there. But the biggest challenge about sports is keeping a kid involved. If my kids play thru high school they will have played 14 years of sports. Theyíll have plenty of wins and losses by then. A lot of kids quit long before they learn there potential. If itís not fun theyíre not going to play. Oh and screaming at a 5 year old does not motivate. One other thing coaching kids is great. Iíll do it as long as they let me. But when your good old friend comes out and uses a lot of word he shouldnít around a lot of kids because you didnít start his kid at quarter back. Donít say I didnít warn you.

Iím out
:firejump:

Workin' 4 Toys
02-24-2006, 07:11 PM
Very true! This is a great discussion!
Why try at all? Great way to start Friday WFT! :toast:

Thanks to both of you.....8p

X-45
02-24-2006, 08:26 PM
So, if there was two games being played, Hypothetical again....

One game has 8 year old boys playing soccer, with a scoreboard(on).
One game has 8 year old boys playing soccer, without a scoreboard.

Who plays to win?

Not a kid in either game will look at that scoreboard until the parent tells them to. They are going to talk about what they did on the field If they scored one goal that is all you will hear about till they score another one. And if they had a bad day they will be sad. If your kid scored a goal and the team lost are you really going to tell him he should hang his head in shame.

:noface:

Hoosier Bob
02-24-2006, 09:18 PM
I think we all agree but have different methods of getting there. So far this has been a very cool thread. There are parents that do a very honorable job pushing kids and peers to levels no one ever expected. There are others who expect their kids to perform at a level that can't be pushed or expected. I have seen some great motivators and some a**holes! I still think we are focusing on the latter. Kids deserve some credit when it comes to motivation and parents deserve the responsibilty in managing there motivation be it lacking or excessive. Any little league game I see is still filled with a majority of good kids backed by decent parents. I played Highschool basketball my freshman year only. I felt I was pretty good but our team lost every game! Did you catch that? Every game! Ok so I went another direction after that but every loss was still some of the best and most motivating experiences of my life. What can I say I am a loser! I am also a player and if I lost 100 more games I would still be playing! I still love playing basketball and still win occasionally even after a blown achilles!:D Not a kid in either game will look at that scoreboard until the parent tells them to. They are going to talk about what they did on the field If they scored one goal that is all you will hear about till they score another one. And if they had a bad day they will be sad. If your kid scored a goal and the team lost are you really going to tell him he should hang his head in shame.

:noface:

Workin' 4 Toys
02-25-2006, 12:14 AM
Not a kid in either game will look at that scoreboard until the parent tells them to. They are going to talk about what they did on the field If they scored one goal that is all you will hear about till they score another one. And if they had a bad day they will be sad. If your kid scored a goal and the team lost are you really going to tell him he should hang his head in shame.

:noface:You don't think the kids care who scores? I hear the kids talking about the goals for days after the games. I guess it would be the fact that the parents congratulate them on the goals and make a big deal out of it. Is it wrong to do so because they feel bad if they did not get the goal.

Workin' 4 Toys
02-25-2006, 12:19 AM
One of my buddies has a 5 year old in thai kwon do. Does real good. Funny thing about that sport, there has to be a winner and a loser, the winner doesn't get his but kicked (literally) I suppose that is a quick lesson in try harder.

6ballsisall
02-25-2006, 08:41 AM
Just finished reading this thread. Lots of good and different perspectives.

I haven't given this one much thought because it's years before my lil' tike will be playing sports. I hear the stories of parents making it tough for the kid to enjoy playing the game because there to busy trying to make sure they win. I'm very competitive, guess I'll need to wathc myself and make sure I don't end up being one of the guys.

Seems to me at this point I want my kids to grow up knowing there is always a winner and a loser in the game but it would be nice if somehow not a lot of pressure was put on that stuff at a young age and everyone was more focused on making sure the kids have some fun, get some exercise, and in the case of team sports, they learn to work together and build a team environment.

As for sports like waterskiing, mine will be make all 6 by the time there 8 whether they like it or not :D j/k