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View Full Version : Incredible!!!


milkmania
02-07-2006, 09:02 AM
SawStop's 10 cabinet saw was developed from the ground up with a particular focus on safety and quality. It features a revolutionary safety system that stops and retracts the blade (within 5 milliseconds) upon accidental contact, drastically reducing the severity of user injury.


http://www.sawstop.com/ (http://click%20here%20for%20sawstop/)

watch the video!
http://www.sawstop.com/media/Table%20Saw%20-%20WMV%20high.wmv

mrcrowson
02-07-2006, 09:06 AM
WOW!!


Wonder were the blade went? :eek:

That is really cool

milkmania
02-07-2006, 09:07 AM
yeah, their links are incredibly jacked up, but dang!

here's an explanation....
http://www.sawstop.com/how-it-works-overview.htm

BrianM
02-07-2006, 09:08 AM
That is a really neat system. That video is amazing.

milkmania
02-07-2006, 09:08 AM
That is a really neat system. That video is amazing.


but, would you say incredible???;)

bcampbe7
02-07-2006, 09:19 AM
How do it know???? :confused: :D

Mag_Red
02-07-2006, 09:23 AM
:eek: Amazing, simply incredible! I'm always nervous using the table saw.

jbfootin
02-07-2006, 09:25 AM
Great idea for safty, but I would have a few questions, such as:
-How long does it take to reset the system once the brake trips
-How expensive is reseting the system
-How often does it trip by accident
-How long do the sensors last before they start to fail.

If this does not trip by accident every once in a while and stands up to the test of time it is just a matter of time before all saws should have this! Talk about a bar bet!....Hey Al. Betcha I can stop that table saw with my tongue! :rolleyes:

jake
02-07-2006, 09:34 AM
-How long does it take to reset the system once the brake trips
-How expensive is reseting the system


How long does it take to grow a finger back?
How expensive is it to reattach digits?

If this thing is reliable long term, reset time and cost don't really seem relevent.

BrianM
02-07-2006, 09:36 AM
According to the site resetting the system takes about the same amount of time as changing the blade. The brake cartridge is $69.00 or $89.00 depending on application

jbfootin
02-07-2006, 09:43 AM
How long does it take to grow a finger back?
How expensive is it to reattach digits?

If this thing is reliable long term, reset time and cost don't really seem relevent.

I guess I asked the questions in the wrong order. The most important questions are how long does it work and does it ever lock up during normal operation. If so how long am I down for and how much will it cost to reset the system. If this thing trips on a regular basis without having a "near miss" and it will cost alot of time and $ also, and the user will simply figure out a way to short cut the safty. You are correct that if it is reliable long term the rest does not matter.

shepherd
02-07-2006, 09:44 AM
Well, I was skeptical... but it's apparently true. They got a patent on it last year:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=SAWSTOP&OS=SAWSTOP&RS=SAWSTOP

JimN
02-07-2006, 09:49 AM
I'm not sure the system is reset as much as the cartridge is replaced. IIRC, the blade needs to be replaced too, since the cartridge jams the brake into the saw gullet. The Taunton Press website has forums and the Saw Stop has been discussed there. (www.taunton.com) From what I have seen, it's a good saw even without the braking system but at $2500, I think I'll be careful until they offer a universal add-on unit.

Being nervous when using a power tool is a bad thing.

jbfootin- if saws come with the cheesy POS splitter/blade guard/anti-kickback they do, what makes you think they'll make a really good mechanism mandatory? If they do, it'll make the price go down, but I doubt if it'll be made in the US if they need high production numbers. They could have it made where most of the woodworking machinery sold in the US is made- Taiwan.

Workin' 4 Toys
02-07-2006, 01:58 PM
I did not click the link, but if it is the same system I saw years ago, the guy did a demostration years ago with a hotdog. I thought it was kind of funny, but then again, how else do you test a rig like that to see if it would cut off a finger. He was saying manufacturers at the time didn't jump on it, because if that safety failed, then they would be liable for missing fingers for the guy that thought he would try it (or purpose or not).

I wasn't sold on it then, and I am still not. If I don't feel comfortable around a piece of machinery I stay away. A table saw is on the bottom of my list to be afraid of. Now walking in front of a Jet engine and getting sucked in is something I don't look forward to, I wonder if someone can develop a device to keep that from happening.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-07-2006, 02:05 PM
that is neat, but I wouldnt rely on it. I guess I think a push stick is a must. Just use it to push your stock so your fingers arent anywhere near the blade. I have always used the ancient theory of keeping my fingers away from the blade to keep them from getting cut.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-07-2006, 02:07 PM
Now walking in front of a Jet engine and getting sucked in is something I don't look forward to, I wonder if someone can develop a device to keep that from happening.


I think they did, its called common sense not to walk in front of jet engines...... ;)

M-Funf
02-07-2006, 02:14 PM
Well, I was skeptical... but it's apparently true. They got a patent on it last year:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=SAWSTOP&OS=SAWSTOP&RS=SAWSTOP

Shep,
For what it's worth, a device doesn't need to work for it to get patented...

That said, I NEED to get one of these...but it's a bit pricey :o

Workin' 4 Toys
02-07-2006, 02:23 PM
I think they did, its called common sense not to walk in front of jet engines...... ;)
EXACTLY!!!! So why run your hand across a spining blade!!!!!

rodltg2
02-07-2006, 02:25 PM
the company that does laminate in our countertop group has one. we wanted to test it out but apparently its big ordeal to get it reset .

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-07-2006, 02:30 PM
EXACTLY!!!! So why run your hand across a spining blade!!!!!


Yep, I agree! thats why I use a push stick. I just keep my hands away from the blade when using ANY saw. SAFETY FIRST!!!! :toast:

Workin' 4 Toys
02-07-2006, 02:32 PM
I wonder what else people can come up with to protect me from myself.....

Any place sell cans of common sense? That would fix alot of issues in the world.

M-Funf
02-07-2006, 02:39 PM
I wonder what else people can come up with to protect me from myself.....

Any place sell cans of common sense? That would fix alot of issues in the world.

And you know the government will jump on this, too. They'll probably demand that all table saws, band saws, chop saws, and dremel tools be fitted with this technology.

Stopsaw will get rich, and we'll have to shell out more money for tools :cry:

If the company is smart, they're already courting Delta, Powermatic, Jet, Ryobi, Bosch, etc. etc. to license this technology to them. If they're REALLY smart, they'll wait until the government requires these companies to use the technology, and then license it for more $$ :rolleyes:

j2nh
02-07-2006, 03:12 PM
Or
One company will bite the bullet and install the system on their saw, thus creating a safety standard and the rest of the companies will have to follow suit.

"Mr DeWalt were you aware of a safety system that could have been installed on your table saw that would have saved my client, Mr. Idiot, his fingers?"
Then they play the hot dog video for the jury and the jury promptly awards Mr. Idiot 5 million of which he keeps $25,000 and his lawyer gets $4,475,000. Of course we pay for all of it the next time we buy a saw, or when our neighbor, who used to work for a company that had table saws on its shop floor, loses his job because his company moved its operations overseas to a country that isn't sue happy, and we have to pay for his job retraining or food stamps.

jake
02-07-2006, 03:28 PM
EXACTLY!!!! So why run your hand across a spining blade!!!!!

Are you saying this is only useful for people who CHOOSE to jam their hand into the blade?

I think it's aimed at preventing "accidents"...

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-07-2006, 04:03 PM
I wonder what else people can come up with to protect me from myself.....

Any place sell cans of common sense? That would fix alot of issues in the world.

Hey Toys, you just hit it man. The jackpot. Lets market it man, lets get rich! We will sell empty cans with nothing in them, but lable them as filled with knowledge, common sense, etc.... and people will buy them, I know they will. I can really envision ways to do this. Well be business partners. In a year, we will be sitting on a beach somewhere drinking bright colored drinks with umbrellas in them. Whatcha say??

mtripper
02-07-2006, 04:07 PM
From what I've read about it over the years when it does fire you have to replace the cartridge and the blade. It took them a few years to get this to market after the announcement. So for a good blade and the cartridge you are looking at $2-300. It looks to be a well designed saw, one of the few with a riving knife. The prototypes fired when you touched the blade, even if the saw was off, and had a manual disengage switch so you could touch it if you had to. I haven't seen the production models yet.

mtripper
02-07-2006, 04:07 PM
I forgot to mention they are working on a bandsaw version as well.

Workin' 4 Toys
02-07-2006, 06:07 PM
Hey Toys, you just hit it man. The jackpot. Lets market it man, lets get rich! We will sell empty cans with nothing in them, but lable them as filled with knowledge, common sense, etc.... and people will buy them, I know they will. I can really envision ways to do this. Well be business partners. In a year, we will be sitting on a beach somewhere drinking bright colored drinks with umbrellas in them. Whatcha say??
I am in.... I could sell a whole bunch on the beach......
How about labeled "Hydrogen two parts and Oxygen one part" and we call it "common sense"... ;)

Workin' 4 Toys
02-07-2006, 06:09 PM
Are you saying this is only useful for people who CHOOSE to jam their hand into the blade?

I think it's aimed at preventing "accidents"...
I see I struck some nerves in this thread.....:D At least people are looking at both sides of the fence and not just jumping on something so stupid. Whats next, are they going to put a safety cage around my MAG77 so I can't cut some Fur across my lap...?:rolleyes:

Workin' 4 Toys
02-07-2006, 06:12 PM
And you know the government will jump on this, too. They'll probably demand that all table saws, band saws, chop saws, and dremel tools be fitted with this technology.

Stopsaw will get rich, and we'll have to shell out more money for tools :cry:

If the company is smart, they're already courting Delta, Powermatic, Jet, Ryobi, Bosch, etc. etc. to license this technology to them. If they're REALLY smart, they'll wait until the government requires these companies to use the technology, and then license it for more $$ :rolleyes:

Right on..... It will be the companys fault that thinks its a stupid idea because they did not protect their customers.
I wonder if they can make these for Lathes, Mills, Chop saws, Planers, Drill presses, and Jointers too. I can't wait.... MY OLD STUFF WILL BE WORTH A FORTUNE...!!!:D

jake
02-07-2006, 09:07 PM
I can see you guys are real "glass is half full" kind of people. I think this is a pretty cool invention.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-07-2006, 09:30 PM
I am in.... I could sell a whole bunch on the beach......
How about labeled "Hydrogen two parts and Oxygen one part" and we call it "common sense"... ;)


OK, I will have my people contact your people, and they will do lunch and ink the deal. after we get rich with this one, lets market a IQ enhancing program to the same clientel. ya know, a "double your IQ or NO money back!!!" type of thing. We cant lose...... :toast: Forbes will be doing a cover story on us.

UMP

Workin' 4 Toys
02-07-2006, 10:56 PM
I can see you guys are real "glass is half full" kind of people. I think this is a pretty cool invention.
Cool invention? Its a safety on a spinning saw blade, I guess I just don't get it.
It fits right up there with putting a tether in a boat that tops out at 45mph...:eek:

jake
02-08-2006, 07:22 AM
Cool invention? Its a safety on a spinning saw blade, I guess I just don't get it.
It fits right up there with putting a tether in a boat that tops out at 45mph...:eek:

Actually, no it doesn't equate to that at all. I think you just like to find things to complain about.

Leroy
02-08-2006, 07:35 AM
***; They are working on a model to check the DNA touching your keyboard now! :uglyhamme

Wow, finally watched and really amazing!

I see I struck some nerves in this thread.....:D At least people are looking at both sides of the fence and not just jumping on something so stupid. Whats next, are they going to put a safety cage around my MAG77 so I can't cut some Fur across my lap...?:rolleyes:

Workin' 4 Toys
02-08-2006, 11:16 AM
Actually, no it doesn't equate to that at all. I think you just like to find things to complain about.
Yup, you got me all figured out. Next time I run my hand across a spinning saw blade, Ill be sure to keep it to myself.....:rolleyes:

JimN
02-08-2006, 12:01 PM
Workin'- IIRC, the inventor decided to make this because table saw accidents are the most common among woodworkers. It's easy to tell people to be careful, but when it comes down to it, some just get complacent, work when they're too tired to be safe, haven't had good training or are an accident waiting to happen. When you have almost every home improvement or woodworking program on TV showing saw cuts and no blade guards, splitters, etc and then telling us that eye protection is THE most important safety measure, that's kinda dumb. Since a lot of the people watching aren't necessarily highly experienced with power tools, they should really drive home the importance of not getting fingers within about 6" of the blade and definitely not in line with it when pushing a piece through. Push sticks and blocks are cheap, reattaching fingers and hands aren't.

I think safety is a good thing but when the safety equipment is automatic, people will assume that it'll save them when they should still be as careful as ever, IMO. There are some people making wood cutting equipment (Festool and EZ Smart, specifically) who think it's just a really bad idea to take the material to the blade and the blade should be taken to the material. They have crosscut assemblies that appear very accurate, take up very little space compared to crosscutting long boards and claim that they won't chipout when set up correctly.

Ultimately, it's up to the person as far as what they're comfortable with, in terms of machinery. Some people are just a little too fearless and don't want to admit that they don't know how to use power equipment safely. You ought to see what they require in English commercial woodworking shops when it comes to safety.

Bottom line, accidents happen and the SawStop is just trying to minimize the damage when body parts come into contact with the blade. Ever known anyone whose fingertips line up on one hand from going into a jointer?

Workin' 4 Toys
02-08-2006, 12:11 PM
I watched the video since your comment Jim. It is the same system I saw years ago. Funny how they would make a safety video with the blade guard and antikickback arms removed... But who uses them anyway.
I get WHY someone would do it. But I suppose I wasn't taking into consideration just any one would go buy a tablesaw from the local department store. Let alone a 3 or 5 HP version they obviously used in the video.
I did not look at the link to see what machines they were offered for, I suppose they could offer them on the portable units for the HOME stores. But the cost would probably be significant, and the $100.00 table saw now is $400 and if it ever trips on a hot dog needs $300.00 in parts? Perhaps if they are getting hurt too often because of these types of machines, they would be better off not selling them??

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-08-2006, 12:24 PM
I guess one problem I have with people in general is lack of preperation, knowledge, and safety. People just think they can write a check and do anything they want. Thats our society's mentality. People need to remember to THINK. When I get into something new, I research it. I talk to people, get input. Find out the pitfalls invovled and potential problems. When its something that concerns safety, I am even more avid. I am a safety nerd. I always wear safety glasses and earplugs when doing any type of job around the house, even when mowing the lawn. (laugh if you want to, its ok) I always take a minute before a job and just walk around and look at it. just clear your head of the job at hand, and look around you. Look for hazards, dangers. I wear steel toe boots when appropriate, knee pads, gloves, face sheild, dust mask, or vapor respirator. You need to take care of yourself, you cant regrow things you wreck on your body. People are usually in too big a hurry, or too proud to ask for help or admit they dont know what they are doing. Most injuries I have seen from poeple I know that arent sports related are do to unsafe work practices.

If people would think more, that would drastically reduce the number of accidental injuries. Yes, devices like that are neat, but I wouldnt rely on it to work. I always think good ol common sense and thinking before you do something is the best way to prevent accidents. :twocents:

UMP

JimN
02-08-2006, 12:32 PM
I'm not sure they offer the mechanism for aftermarket use. Their saw is in the $2500 and even without the stop mech is supposed to be very good. OTOH, I'll put my Grizzly saw up against Delta, Powermatic, Jet, General (Canadian) and just about any other "American" saws in terms of reliability and accuracy. The only consumer saw that I know of with a riving knife is the new Powermatic 2000, and it goes for $2K. The splitter/anti-kickback devices supplied on most saws are just a government requirement and they're all pretty much the same POS. I just saw a piece by Excalibur that, for some reason, comes with a thin kerf blade. I just want a good, solid splitter that can come off for dados and go back on without having to readjust it again. Looks like I'll have to make one.

Then, there are the ones who go out and buy the most expensive saw they see on TV and get a swap meet $5 "universal" blade that would have a hard time going through balsa wood, let alone aged white oak, rosewood, wenge. padauk or koa. Or think that, just because the blade has carbide tips, it'll last forever without any maintenance. Another good one is when someone without a lot of experience is surprised when they kick back a chunk of hard maple or nicely figured cherry because of the sugar content gumming up the blade.

In the part about writing a check to do whatever they want, you forgot about "and when something goes wrong, I'll sue them till they bleed".

M-Funf
02-08-2006, 01:00 PM
But who uses them anyway.


W4T,
I have a Delta 3hp left tilt saw. I use safety devices all the time. I have the Delta Blade guard, as well as a Biesemeyer splitter, and routinely use Bench Dog Feather-Loc's. Most important, I maintain my blades to be as sharp as possible. There is nothing more dangerous (my opinion of course) than a dull blade...

I have a HUGE amount of respect for the table saw. I know what it is capable of if I slip up.

JimN,
I almost bought a Grizzly, but found the Delta unit locally because I got a great deal, and it was maintained well.

How do you like the Grizzly equipment? I'm thinking about getting their 8" Jointer next...or maybe the band saw... :rolleyes:

jake
02-08-2006, 01:06 PM
I guess one problem I have with people in general is lack of preparation, knowledge, and safety.

My father, who is in the woodworking profession with 30 + years experience, had an accident on a big re saw band saw that removed two fingers about 4 years ago. Thankfully, they were able to re-attach. It's not just inexperienced people that get hurt. That's why they call them "accidents". Being fairly involved in the woodworking world myself, I guess I'm gonna come down in favor of improved safety.

Following the logic being discussed here, I'd have to assume you're against safety stops on a power feed time savers or planners? I suppose you are anti-safety glasses...just be smart and don't get your eyeball in the way of flying debris. You probably don't wear ear protection....I'll keep my ears away from the damaging sound waves...I'm smart, knowledgeable and prepared.

This train of thought is bass ackwards.

So yes, Americans are overly letigious, but your leap to using this as a premise in an argument for avoiding safety improvements is a gigantic leap.

Cops shouldn't wear bullet proof vests...they should be smart enough and well enough prepared to not get their bodies in the way of moving bullets.

Passengers in cars shouldn't wear seat belts....they should be smart enough and good enough drivers to avoid any and all accidents.

You shouldn't need smoke detectors in your house...you should be smart enough not to light your house on fire....

on...and on....and on...and on....

Ric
02-08-2006, 01:09 PM
I couldnt get the video to run but I like the technology behind it

what I dont like is them using a wiener as an example :eek:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-08-2006, 01:36 PM
[QUOTE=jake]

Following the logic being discussed here, I'd have to assume you're against safety stops on a power feed time savers or planners? I suppose you are anti-safety glasses...just be smart and don't get your eyeball in the way of flying debris. You probably don't wear ear protection....I'll keep my ears away from the damaging sound waves...I'm smart, knowledgeable and prepared.

This train of thought is bass ackwards.

So yes, Americans are overly letigious, but your leap to using this as a premise in an argument for avoiding safety improvements is a gigantic leap.

QUOTE]


Jake,

I dont know if you were directing those comments at me because you qouted me at the beginning of your post, but If you were, please go back and read my post. I absolutley believe in wearing safety glasses. Like I said in that post, I am a safety nerd. I'm not dissing that product, but I wouldnt trust it personally. I was talking about public in general that dont take the proper time to be safe. I realize there are always accidents that can happen to professionals even. I worked in an iron mine as a plant repairman, so I know all about safety in the workplace. I dont want to cause friction with anyone here man, so please dont think Im trying.

UMP

jake
02-08-2006, 01:42 PM
UMP...didn't mean to imply that. Actually was addressing W4T. Just thought your statement captured the thought that I was disagreeing with, the thought being...

"safety is only for litigious idiots who aren't smart enough or well prepared enough to not run their hand (by choice) across a moving saw blade".

Workin' 4 Toys
02-08-2006, 04:08 PM
UMP...didn't mean to imply that. Actually was addressing W4T. Just thought your statement captured the thought that I was disagreeing with, the thought being...

"safety is only for litigious idiots who aren't smart enough or well prepared enough to not run their hand (by choice) across a moving saw blade".
You assume I do not follow standard safety procedures because I find this device useless to me. There are plenty of safety devices listed in the thread alone that should be used. MANY are in fact manufactured to keep hands and/or hotdogs out of the way. Now the individuals that chose not to use them, should. I think there are plenty of ways to keep yourself safe around machinery. Many precautionary as UMP stated. The best part is, they are OPTIONAL.
I will find other ways to keep my hands away from the blade. Especially knowing this thing could fail.

JimN
02-08-2006, 05:20 PM
M-funf- I have the Grizzly G-1023S right tilt with 7' rails on a Shop Fox mobile base w/extension and an extension table with my router in it. I also have their older 12 1/2" planer, 6" jointer and the G-0555 bandsaw with the riser block (because 6" of resaw capacity is pretty useless). I'm happy with all of them but I use the table saw the most. The planer is about 12 y.o., the BS is 1 y.o., the jointer is about 6 y.o. and the TS is about 5 y.o.

I just bought one of the General T-rules (same as the Incra) with laser cut holes for marking at 1/64" increments and I cut the stiles/rails for my kitchen cabinet doors to 2-1/4" (according to the scale on my TS rail) before getting the rule. I grabbed a couple of the parts to check them and when I put the rule on it, it was dead center on 2-16/64". This is after using the 7' rails for 2 years and not resetting anything. It's the same fence they still sell it with and I haven't touched it. I don't set the fence up for any relief at the back, either. I am planning to make a splitter that makes sense, though. The POS guard/splitter/anti-kickback has never been on it-I feel safer with nothing than with that. I have some 1/8" steel from a beam I made when I removed the wall between my kitchen and living room, so I'll use that.

I took about 2 hours to set up the bandsaw, including separating the upper and lower halves so I could add the riser block. When I got my first blade (locally from someone who makes them up from bulk stock) and with almost no tweaking, I was resawing 6" white oak to about 1/16" with no drift at all.

I use the jointer less than any of the others because I can glue up the stock after cutting it on the saw (Forrest WWII 40T blade). I also recently got into hand planes and if I only have a couple of pieces to joint, it's not worth dragging the jointer out. My #4 cuts fluffy shavings with the original unlaminated iron and my #7 jointer plane w/ laminated iron is coming along nicely.

Most of the machines available in the US are made in the same plants in Taiwan, it's justs a matter of how the company specs fir, finish and accessories.

To get to your actual question, I like the jointer, but don't like setting
them up after sharpening. The spiral carbide cutters are nice for not needing setup but from what I have read, they aren't really any better when it comes to the surface they leave. If you go to www.taunton.com and look for their forums, there are tons of threads about all of this, including the Grizzly 8" and their bandsaws. Actually, there's a lot of good info there in a lot of areas.