PDA

View Full Version : Ford to cut jobs...


BriEOD
01-23-2006, 09:10 AM
First GM now Ford. This is not good for the economy.

Ford Link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182457,00.html)

stevo137
01-23-2006, 09:38 AM
The amount of vehicles made outways demand and Toyota is steadily becoming number one.
There is no way that Ford can continue and stay as large as they are. Same with GM.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-23-2006, 11:13 AM
Sorry to see the jobs go (again), that's for sure.

I hope I never HAVE to buy a toyota or an import for that matter. I wonder if GM or Ford will ever sell out like Chrylser did to MB. Looks like its only a matter of time. I can't believe how many Americans love to send their hard earned dollars overseas.

The minivan, that I won't miss.

twieder
01-23-2006, 11:26 AM
The news was sayin somthin about China havin a roller skate they are gona start importing to the U.S. that doesn't pass safety regs here. The thing is gona be under 10k.
Problem is a minimum wage earner can't afford 30k on a ford,gm, or dodge, but can get a 10k rice wagon!
Now there's gona be 30000 unemployed Ford workers plus all the GM workers that are gona be buyin cheap foreign jobbies cause they can't afford American cars!
Pretty simple math if ya ask me!My wife just got an '06 GMC Serria that we wouldn't have been able to afford if it wern't for 4500 in rebates and her dad workin for GM and usein his discount! Took a 40k truck to just over 28k. Makes a big differance in payments. :confused:

Cloaked
01-23-2006, 11:29 AM
Sorry to see the jobs go (again), that's for sure.

I hope I never HAVE to buy a toyota or an import for that matter. I wonder if GM or Ford will ever sell out like Chrylser did to MB. Looks like its only a matter of time. I can't believe how many Americans love to send their hard earned dollars overseas.

The minivan, that I won't miss.Most Americans like a quality product. Look back at the rejection of industrial enrichment by Americans, during the Industrial Revolution. They did it to themselves.

We refused the concept.

http://www.lii.net/deming.html

Cloaked
01-23-2006, 11:31 AM
...Took a 40k truck to just over 28k. Makes a big differance in payments. :confused:Makes a big difference in the way people purchase products. You are lucky, unlike others that have to pay the full valued price.

Point and case. Maybe jobs would be here if everyone could get a value at this offering. :confused:

Workin' 4 Toys
01-23-2006, 11:43 AM
Hypothetical question.
What happens when all the Automobile manu. jobs go overseas, and the labor rates rise there?
Do we then have a situation that "we" could overcome then?
I worry more about my kids jobs in the future more than anything. I better start to teach her how to work on Toyotas or sell them......:mad:

twieder
01-23-2006, 11:44 AM
I'm to the oppinion(and it's mine) there is not one reason a vehicle should cost that much!The CEO's blame the stock holders,unions,and insurance companies.The employees blame management, and the public is blameing them all and taking their buisness elseware!
Yes, we as Americans demand guality in our purchases,but you only can afford so much a month in payments too!

OhioProstar
01-23-2006, 11:47 AM
Hypothetical question.
What happens when all the Automobile manu. jobs go overseas, and the labor rates rise there?
Do we then have a situation that "we" could overcome then?
I worry more about my kids jobs in the future more than anything. I better start to teach her how to work on Toyotas or sell them......:mad:
I think you can take that hypothetical even further. What happens to all consumable goods when countries like China, India, etc increase their wages. That $5 Hanns t-shirt will be $15.

Dan K
01-23-2006, 11:47 AM
[QUOTE=Sporty]Most Americans like a quality product. Look back at the rejection of industrial enrichment by Americans, during the Industrial Revolution. They did it to themselves.

We refused the concept.

Sporty, Having worked closely with Dr. Deming in the Eighties, when he was in his 80's I became quite familier with his 14 points and other concepts. He was a brilliant mind !
Having said that I fail to see the connection with that to Toyota's and China's gain in market share. GM, Ford, and Toyota as well as DCX all build quality cars, GM has lead a number of segments in quality for several years and ironically they are loosing market share in those segments. So I beleive it comes down to price and price is dependant on labor as well as evironmental costs. GM & Fords health care burden is huge as are all the environmental costs of running "clean" plants. certainly China is not concerned with either of these and therby has a dramatically lower cost base. GM is the nation's largest health care provider, paying for healthcare on hundreds of thousands of people, Ford is right behind.
I say level the playing field, either impose import duties to help offset the national health care costs or eliminate the burden of the US manufactures paying those costs. This was partially done with the new medicare part D program that reimburses employers that provide similar or better coverage to retirees.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-23-2006, 11:52 AM
Ok, what's the difference....
A purchase price of a
2006 GMC Yukon loaded-
2006 Toyota Sequoia loaded-
2006 Ford Expedition loaded-

Then PP price of say a
2006 Toyota Camry-
2006 Chevrolet Malibu-
2006 Mercury ????


Payments on each? Interest rates? I don't see how the payment or PP could vart that much.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-23-2006, 11:54 AM
I say level the playing field, either impose import duties to help offset the national health care costs or eliminate the burden of the us manufactures paying those costs. This was partially down witht he new medicare part D program that reimburses emplowers that provide similar or better coverage to retirees.
Great point.

OhioProstar
01-23-2006, 11:55 AM
Dan with what you said. I think you can look at Ford and GM as a microcosm of the US benefits (SS, Medicare, etc…) problem. A company or government can’t support non-working recipients without a larger base of workers to off set the outflow. Now the government can just raise taxes…but even that has a certain amount of elasticity. This problem is only going to get larger.

twieder
01-23-2006, 11:56 AM
I don't think they do differ that much. That would be the reason Ford claims to be loosing an average of something like $250 on each vehicle and Toyota makes $1600 plus.

Dan K
01-23-2006, 12:01 PM
I don't think they do differ that much. That would be the reason Ford claims to be loosing an average of something like $250 on each vehicle and Toyota makes $1600 plus.

Again, my point is proven. Fords Health Care costs are something like 1400-1500 for every vehicle sold. Toyota's is around 200. Change this and the equations are alot more competitive.

Tom023
01-23-2006, 12:02 PM
Toyota's philosophy is to produce products in the regions where they are to be sold, that is why they are increasing their manufacturing base in the U.S. Camry, Corolla, Sequoia, Tundra, etc. are all produced in the U.S. with American workers. Japanese production on some models, Camry for example, is used to balance supply and demand in the U.S., so there are a few imported Camrys if necessary. Why is Toyota performing so much differently than domestics, their cost structure is lower...non-union wages, not burdened with health care costs for retired workers, etc., etc., etc.,
That is why Ford loses money on small cars whereas Toyota makes it.

twieder
01-23-2006, 12:15 PM
Again, my point is proven. Fords Health Care costs are something like 1400-1500 for every vehicle sold. Toyota's is around 200. Change this and the equations are alot more competitive.
I agree 100%, but how can we do that?I don't think all the doctors in this country are gonna take a 50k a year cut in pay to cut health care costs! Nor do we want the government to dictate who gets what care and at what cost! Do that and we won't have many people in med school!
Another problem as i see it is the tax breaks these foreign companies get to build a plant.Yes they employ Americans, but at what cost!
I truely feel for the people loosing their jobs and thats why I buy American when I can(find me a tv or dvd player made here)but as long as we keep supporting foreign interests,Americans will keep loosing jobs!

Dan K
01-23-2006, 12:17 PM
Toyota's philosophy is to produce products in the regions where they are to be sold, that is why they are increasing their manufacturing base in the U.S. Camry, Corolla, Sequoia, Tundra, etc. are all produced in the U.S. with American workers. Japanese production on some models, Camry for example, is used to balance supply and demand in the U.S., so there are a few imported Camrys if necessary. Why is Toyota performing so much differently than domestics, their cost structure is lower...non-union wages, not burdened with health care costs for retired workers, etc., etc., etc.,
That is why Ford loses money on small cars whereas Toyota makes it.

It appears that Toyota's zest to be competitive has many hidden costs to our economy.
Toyota workers benefits (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22773-2004Oct10.html)

Tom023
01-23-2006, 12:25 PM
It appears that Toyota's zest to be competitive has many hidden costs to our economy.
Toyota workers benefits (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22773-2004Oct10.html)
Enlightening article. I guess that could be true for just about any company that uses temporary staffing. Would the U.S. economy be better off if, for example, Toyota moved all their production outside the U.S.?

LakePirate
01-23-2006, 12:33 PM
Ok, what's the difference....
A purchase price of a
2006 GMC Yukon loaded-
2006 Toyota Sequoia loaded-
2006 Ford Expedition loaded-

Then PP price of say a
2006 Toyota Camry-
2006 Chevrolet Malibu-
2006 Mercury ????


Payments on each? Interest rates? I don't see how the payment or PP could vart that much.

According to the talking heads on Fox news they are losing out because Detroit is not producing a car that Americans want to buy. Not that I would buy an accord or camry they are more attractive to the American public than the Malibu or Fusion.

On another note, Ford reported a gain this past quarter and the stock is holding steady. Ol' Bill Ford says that these cuts are for the future profitability of the company.

LakePirate
01-23-2006, 12:37 PM
19% jump in profitibility, 4th year in the black. However, they say that north america division is losing money.

They are closing the Atlanta plant, that means both the GM and Ford plants in Atlanta are closing. Super.

Dan K
01-23-2006, 12:41 PM
Enlightening article. I guess that could be true for just about any company that uses temporary staffing. Would the U.S. economy be better off if, for example, Toyota moved all their production outside the U.S.?

Tom,
I don't believe there are any easy answers to this. My frustration lies with our leadership, I do not see them acting in our best long term interest. I know we are now in a global economy and we must be able to compete globolly but the playing field is not level. It is far more profitable for foriegn firms to enter our US market and milk it than it is for US firms to enter Japan to sell product. The laws protecting worker rights in Europe, Japan and some South American countries are far better than those here. The Unions are the ones trying to protect rights here and they get a bad rap for having costly wages.

OK I am off my soap box now :worthy:

BriEOD
01-23-2006, 12:53 PM
At some points the Feds are going to have to do something. Ford and GM are HUGE companies. Think about how that effects the companies who provide tires, upholsetry, electronics, infrastructure. Not good.

Tom023
01-23-2006, 12:54 PM
Dan, I don't disagree with you at all, it is frustrating and I see it getting worse. I always look at a product to see where it is made and I cringe everytime I see "Made in China." Perfect example: last night I was in the Toyota Center and they had a big photograph blown up on the wall which included a basketball. Imprinted on the ball were the inflation pressures, and such, but also "Made in China", and it didn't help the letters were 8" tall. Same thing on the 50 baseballs my son keeps in a bucket. It's frustrating.

Cloaked
01-23-2006, 01:13 PM
....Having said that I fail to see the connection with that to Toyota's and China's gain in market share. GM, Ford, and Toyota as well as DCX all build quality cars, GM has lead a number of segments in quality for several years and ironically they are loosing market share in those segments. I wish I knew all of the good answers. I'd certanily be interested to see our great country survive.

My best guess opinion is this: Too little, too late by America. Way too little way too late.

Like I said and as you very well know, Deming offered up his concepts and knowledge, we just out right refused to accept it...

With all due respect, I fail to see the quality in any American made Big Three. Been there and didn't return. I tolerate my GMC truck and GM's bull$hit service because Honda hasn't built a diesel truck just yet.

Market shares are a raw indicator of how well a company is selling their product. Pretty simple. All of the other aspects of health insurance, retirement, etc are all directly self-inflicted downfalls.

Cloaked
01-23-2006, 01:16 PM
At some points the Feds are going to have to do something. Ford and GM are HUGE companies. Think about how that effects the companies who provide tires, upholsetry, electronics, infrastructure. Not good.Honestly, the Feds have to do nothing. They owe me nothing at all. I don't see why one would expect the Feds to bail anything out of hock.

We voted the Feds into office and have gotten here by virtue of default-failure.

You are correct, this is not good but it's the way American industry and finance have chosen, else this discussion topic would not have been presented.

Ric
01-23-2006, 01:43 PM
well I've posted ad-nauseum how I feel about unions, litigation and other regulatory distractions on the american manufacturer so I think I'll threadjack because toyotas aint so cheap anymore...

Hondas truck, the ridgeline is shown in an ad during the nfc game last night pulling a huge center console boat thru the woods loaded with 4 guys and camping gear when they roll up on a bear in the road.
The funny thing is watching the rig sliding on all fours because of the big load :purplaugh anybody else spot that, or am I just being a honda hater?

milkmania
01-23-2006, 01:44 PM
I need a valid argument settled.....

my brother in law just bought a Toyota 4Runner, I tell him he bought an import!

he says no, they are made in the United States, but I point out that the money goes overseas.

What's my valid argument here?


Guys, I don't know what to do that will help stimulate our economy, but it looks very very dim for our children.

I read the Yahoo story of Toyota's temporary employees, would it help is someone forced these temp companies to keep from having a 4 year temporary employee?

I'll admit, I used a temp. company once.....I was hired after 6 months, then worked for that employer for 13 years before my back problems began.

The brother in law I mention..... he's a plant manager that employs a lot of temp workers...he says they stay for years.

I think I posted a few weeks ago all the things on my desk that were from wal-mart.... I should probably update that post with all the things on my desk that are imported:rant:

ski36short
01-23-2006, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=milkmania]I need a valid argument settled.....

my brother in law just bought a Toyota 4Runner, I tell him he bought an import!

he says no, they are made in the United States, but I point out that the money goes overseas.

What's my valid argument here?
[QUOTE]

It's *ASSEMBLED* here, not produced here. Big difference.

Tom023
01-23-2006, 02:10 PM
Actually 4Runner is produced in Japan and imported.

What is the big difference between assembled and produced? Component sourcing?

Dan K
01-23-2006, 02:11 PM
Check the vehicle content label. All new vehicles have to have them indiacting the origin of major parts.

jraben8
01-23-2006, 02:13 PM
well I've posted ad-nauseum how I feel about unions, litigation and other regulatory distractions on the american manufacturer so I think I'll threadjack because toyotas aint so cheap anymore...

Hondas truck, the ridgeline is shown in an ad during the nfc game last night pulling a huge center console boat thru the woods loaded with 4 guys and camping gear when they roll up on a bear in the road.
The funny thing is watching the rig sliding on all fours because of the big load :purplaugh anybody else spot that, or am I just being a honda hater?


Yea, I noticed that too. The towing capacity of the Ridgeline is 5000 lbs. The boat alone looked like more than that.

OhioProstar
01-23-2006, 02:14 PM
I need a valid argument settled.....

my brother in law just bought a Toyota 4Runner, I tell him he bought an import!

he says no, they are made in the United States, but I point out that the money goes overseas.

What's my valid argument here?



I would think you are both right in some form. The 4Runner is being made in the US and thus producing high paying blue collar jobs. Parts for the truck probably came from a domestic manufacturer(s) and thus more jobs. You are right that revenue is sent back to Japan, but in turn the profits are pushed out as dividends to stock holders who include a number of large funds most likely held by individual 401(k) investors or ETFs. It is a global world now and companies who can't make the shift will die out.

Tom023
01-23-2006, 02:18 PM
4Runner is produced, assembled, whatever the correct term is in Japan and imported as a complete vehicle. The VIN starts with a "J" which indicates Japan as the manufacturing country. U.S. vehicles start with 1 or 4, maybe a few more in there too.

Here is a list:

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/TORONTO/VIN/WMI.html#ccode

OhioProstar
01-23-2006, 02:56 PM
I found this with a quick search:

"The 4Runners are built in two facilities in Japan: the Toyota Tahara plant and the Hino plant in Hamura."

School Skier
01-23-2006, 03:51 PM
We used to buy Fords! But Ford never took good care of us. My 77 Ford pickup had a cracked intake manifold with 27,000 miles on it just out of warranty that Ford plea bargained out of a judge. When I called them all I heard them say was I'm sorry Mr. Rank we can't help you.
We then bought an 86 full size Ford van after we had the engine replaced in the 77 at our expense at 27,000 miles, the new Ford van started falling apart soon after we bought it one thing after another.
We then bought a Dodge Dakota! Not bad till we hit 100,000 miles we had many problems with the computer that ran the electrical parts of the truck. I had been towed in so many times I was getting to know the tow truck driver on a first name basis.
We now have two Toyota's a 03 Highlander and a 01 Tundra and we are very pleased with both. We have not had the vehicles back for any major problems just oil changes and wipers. The Toyota is a solid vehicle if we all want to beleive it or not. I would like to buy American but not with the way the cars are built in this country.

Tom023
01-23-2006, 04:01 PM
In all fairness, domestic manufacturers have come a long way in terms of quality since your '77 and '86. A comparision to current level vehicles is not too accurate a measure. Most American vehicles and imports rank about the same for initial to 3 years in service quality, after 3 years, the gap does widen a bit in favor of Asians.

bcampbe7
01-23-2006, 04:05 PM
snip... after 3 years, the gap does widen a bit in favor of Asians.

Why is this?
Why can't, or should it be won't, this Country produce a vehicle that can compete with the foreign automakers in the long run?

Sidenote:
My in-laws have an 03 Yukon Denali XL. This is a sweet vehicle and has given them no trouble what-so-ever. My wife and I will buy one, if funds allow, as our next new vehicle.

Cloaked
01-23-2006, 04:06 PM
Why is this?
Why can't, or should it be won't, this Country produce a vehicle that can compete with the foreign automakers in the long run?Posted above... they refused to listen... :guitar:

jayocheskey
01-23-2006, 04:07 PM
I always have and always will drive a GM product. Sad to see Americans being laid off.

jayocheskey
01-23-2006, 04:08 PM
We used to buy Fords! But Ford never took good care of us. My 77 Ford pickup had a cracked intake manifold with 27,000 miles on it just out of warranty that Ford plea bargained out of a judge. When I called them all I heard them say was I'm sorry Mr. Rank we can't help you.
We then bought an 86 full size Ford van after we had the engine replaced in the 77 at our expense at 27,000 miles, the new Ford van started falling apart soon after we bought it one thing after another.
We then bought a Dodge Dakota! Not bad till we hit 100,000 miles we had many problems with the computer that ran the electrical parts of the truck. I had been towed in so many times I was getting to know the tow truck driver on a first name basis.
We now have two Toyota's a 03 Highlander and a 01 Tundra and we are very pleased with both. We have not had the vehicles back for any major problems just oil changes and wipers. The Toyota is a solid vehicle if we all want to beleive it or not. I would like to buy American but not with the way the cars are built in this country.

Did you ever give Chevy a chance?

bcampbe7
01-23-2006, 04:12 PM
Posted above... they refused to listen... :guitar:


You're going to make me reread this entire thread aren't you? :D

milkmania
01-23-2006, 04:18 PM
I always have and always will drive a GM product. Sad to see Americans being laid off.

I hear ya, same here

Workin' 4 Toys
01-23-2006, 04:44 PM
I always have and always will drive a GM product. Sad to see Americans being laid off.
Same here, Bro, At least until they sell out to Toyota.
I can't think of any issues I've had in my GM vehicles I bought new over the years, Or used ones for that matter.

I had the wire harness and dash of a toyota pickup truck burn up on me while driving once. Lucky for me it was someone else's...:o I think it was a 1996 in '97 if I recall. It had a whole 10K I believe. They fixed in in two days....

Cloaked
01-23-2006, 05:50 PM
You're going to make me reread this entire thread aren't you? :DLMAO...Sorry Man..... :D

Luvs you. Mean it.

Ric
01-23-2006, 06:07 PM
I always have and always will drive a GM product. Sad to see Americans being laid off.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Leroy
01-23-2006, 07:23 PM
This is sad and very tough on a lot of people. I've seen personally my company announce shut down after shut down involving ~10k people directly at each factory. I don't want to sound negative but I'm afraid the big 3 will continue their slide and it's not easy to stop given where they are at. Having lived through the consumer electronics transformation, ie there are no US consumer electronics left, (TV's, audio, telephones, DVD players, CD, etc) other than maybe Apple (gone or only pieces left of RCA, GE, Sylvania, Zenith, Philco, and many others). These guys think they can save their businesses by resizing the staff, this will not work, won't catch me buying their stock on that strategy.

Avg selling price of equivalent Toyota's or Honda's are $3-4k more than GM/Ford/Chrysler and that will continue to drive the trend, that is the problem they need to fix. Everyone has made great improvements and I think the difference is much smaller, if there are 100 Honda's, 95 people are happy at 150k miles and with 100 GM's and 85 people are happy at 150k miles.

My car history
Chevy Vega disaster
Chevy C-10 avg
Chevy S-10 below avg
Ford F100 avg
Honda Accord hatchback wonderful
Honda Accord sedan wonderful
Ford Windstar disaster.
Honda odyssey wonderful
Lexus ES300 wonderful
Lexus LX470 Wonderful.
Mastercraft Wonderful.

You can guess which brands I'll continue to buy.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-23-2006, 07:40 PM
Chevy Vega disaster
Chevy C-10 avg
Chevy S-10 below avg
Ford F100 avg
Honda Accord hatchback wonderful
Honda Accord sedan wonderful
Ford Windstar disaster.
Honda odyssey wonderful
Lexus ES300 wonderful
Lexus LX470 Wonderful.
Mastercraft Wonderful.

Well, given the opportunity you have given GM and Ford No wonder you are a huge import fan.
3 Dom. trucks and a minivan vs. 4 import cars.

Footin
01-23-2006, 08:10 PM
I have been loyal to GM for many years, however as I now search for a new or slightly used suburban, tahoe or avalanche, I have also started looking at the Honda Ridgeline. I hate to sway over to the other side, but my Trailblazer has been recalled or in the shop under warrenty FIVE times! I hate to say that the Honda is probably a better built truck for my needs. I hope it pulls the boat ok if I decide to pull the trigger on it.

6ballsisall
01-23-2006, 09:01 PM
Don't ask my opinion of the Big 3 :mad: Actually, I have never been a GM fan, I had a 96 Blazer (small one) and it was a good rig for the time but I just can't get into the styling of GM trucks and cars.
I used to like DC but thats an obvious now............
Ford, I had mixed success with, 2 Ford Rangers with the 4.0 V6, hypereurcratic pistons=bad idea=blown engines. I had a 2000 F150 that I totally rodded (supercharger, etc...) it was a good ride. I blew that trans in it but obviously that was my doing.

I don't know at this point where my "scenario" will play out. I do have to say it will be very hard for me to consider a US Big 3 manufacturer if I get another truck/suv

The thing of it is the service seems to be so much better with the imports/europeans. My tolerance level/time to deal with F&&&in paperwork is gone. I used to take in our Benz and the dealer was always Johnny on the spot and I bought it used and not from them! Same goes for my families experience with Toyota and Lexus. My next car buying experience will be heavily weighted on the local dealers ability to service the vehicle and my time.

6ballsisall
01-23-2006, 09:07 PM
Lastly, don't get me wrong, it GREATLY concerns me so many americans are losing their jobs and it saddens me the working Joe will have to take the hit for the Leaders errors. BUT, there is no irony as to why the Big 3 US auto manufacturers are in the financial shape they are in today. You can only give away the farm so long to gain marketshare before it bites you in the a$$. We have the soft used car market to blame for the Big 3's pricing incentives they used in later years to pull marketshare. Ironically, imports are doing well financially and when's the last time you heard them in big financial trouble? It's just to bad they didn't catch on sooner and save the working classes jobs.

Hindsights 20/20

Stepping off soapbox now

stevo137
01-23-2006, 11:46 PM
[QUOTE=Leroy]This is sad and very tough on a lot of people. I've seen personally my company announce shut down after shut down involving ~10k people directly at each factory.
Leroy,
Just a short time ago, the company that I work for had over 90,000 employees wordwide. Today, it is just over 70,000. Last year, I watched colleagues loose their jobs after many years of service.
This year, we will continue to downsize and eliminate unprofitable business units.
If we don't do this, the entire company is at stake.
I am fortunate to be a part of one of the most profitable business units but the Chinese factor is a major concern.
I personally lost over $400,000 of business to China last year and came to the realization that I need to find new business quickly. Fortunately I was able to gain new business to make up for this deficit not by adding new customers that may be opening a new facility (that is very rare these days) but by taking my competitors business.
It's dog eat dog now and and if you are my competitor, I will do everything within my power to take your business.
The same applies to the Japanese automakers. They are refusing to loose and will continue to take market share until the "Big 3" finally get it. Hopefully it's not too late.

6ballsisall
01-23-2006, 11:52 PM
The thing that frustrates me and I don't get is there have been signs and continue to be signs of concern for the Big 3. Ford has a plan thru their restructure to become profitable again in 2008. Stakeholders love that :rolleyes: Meanwhile the guy working the job to support his family making $15 an hour and paying union dues is out a job and can't support his family while the Ford family keeps their lifestyle going. Don't get me wrong, I am all about big business but the signs for the Big 3 have been here for literally years, executive management ignored them thinking they would go away and now alot of people suffer from it.

stevo137
01-24-2006, 12:00 AM
The thing that frustrates me and I don't get is there have been signs and continue to be signs of concern for the Big 3. Ford has a plan thru their restructure to become profitable again in 2008. Stakeholders love that :rolleyes: Meanwhile the guy working the job to support his family making $15 an hour and paying union dues is out a job and can't support his family while the Ford family keeps their lifestyle going. Don't get me wrong, I am all about big business but the signs for the Big 3 have been here for literally years, executive management ignored them thinking they would go away and now alot of people suffer from it.
Right on Jeff. It really does come down to the leadership and where their interests lie...

bigmac
01-24-2006, 12:01 AM
..... the signs for the Big 3 have been here for literally years, executive management ignored them thinking they would go away and now alot of people suffer from it.

Oh yeah. Toyota has been wondering why it took the US auto industry 30 years to understand how stupid they've been. Had it not been for the most recent "gas crisis" GM and Ford might have been able to limp along "business as usual" for another 4 or 5 years before the inevitable happened.

Stupid, stupid, stupid...

vegashomeexpert
01-24-2006, 12:07 AM
Woe is me! We are a free market economy! Sorry people are losing their jobs but gosh, that sounds like a chance to go get a better job! Bet they have whined about their old job for years! I have been a loyal for guy. Every new car I have bought, (except for the wife's Acura :smile: ) has been a Ford (2 escorts, 1 Expedition, 2 F150 Supercrews). I keep going back because I have never had a problem, except for periodic maintainance, with any of them. If the American public doesn't want to buy American cars, American car manufacturers should make a better car or find a way to become profitable. When GM announced their plant closings a month or two ago, every time I turned on the TV I saw GM ads. How much do they spend on advertising (and rebates). Bet they would sell just as many cars and maybe be a little closer to profitability. I did a case study in graduate school about this same issue in the mid 90's. Nothing has changed. We (the US), just don't get it. The article talked about temp employees at Toyota. Vegas casinos have a ton of temp employees (called steady extras). You do what you gotta do to be competitive! I am done with my turn on the soapbox. Next?....

Workin' 4 Toys
01-24-2006, 12:21 PM
I just saw a picture of a Toyota Camry all set for the NASCAR circuit.

Hmmmm.... I thought they were not using imports for those races.:confused:
What's next..HONDA Civic NHRA dragster...:(

6ballsisall
01-24-2006, 02:55 PM
What's next..HONDA Civic NHRA dragster...:(


Theres a whippersnapper on my block that sure thinks he's fit for that category with his ricer :rolleyes:

twieder
01-24-2006, 04:55 PM
When ya throw a toyota into the biggest red neck(and I'm proud to be one)sport in this country,somethin starts smellin...... well it smells!
End of the day, and I don't care who ya are, it all comes down to that green paper. Root of all evil or what ever you want to call it....The rich get richer and the rest get screwed!
A big 80's band had a lyric went like this


The rich control the government, the media and the law.


It's up to us (American people) to change it or quit b***hin... :mad: your choice :noface:

JMO Now I'll jump off my pedistal?

Workin' 4 Toys
01-24-2006, 05:30 PM
F................ Toyota...........;) 8p :D

twieder
01-24-2006, 05:33 PM
F................ Toyota...........;) 8p :D


Thank you I couldn't have said it any better!

Kevin 89MC
01-24-2006, 06:44 PM
I read in Car and Driver that Toyota is planning on entering NASCAR. I drive Toyotas for personal vehicles, I've had way too many problems with domestics, and even German cars. I do worry about the potential downfall of GM & Ford. It would have a devastating effect on this contry's economy (it is starting already), and that will affect most all of us in some way. I see the government bailing them out, just like they tried with Chrysler in the 80's, and the airlines recently. We all pay for that in the end. I think the simple answer is the short-sightedness of the management, not looking at the long term results of their actions, only the short term. But what do I know? I work in construction. Hard to outsource that, but even that's starting to happen. It's not just Ford/GM though. There are several other Japanese car companies that are suffering. It's a tough time for auto manufacturers now. Toyota just seems to have it together more than most.
OK, done with my ranting! When is spring coming, I want to SKI!!!

Leroy
01-24-2006, 07:23 PM
I get it and would love nothing more than to buy a great American car, but the Windstar killed me. Many more outcomes like that and I will be living on the street. Paid 25k for it in 95 (96 model), rebuilt engine, transmission, CV joint and brakes by 65k miles, all my nickle. Sold it in 99 for $3k.

Also, I'm not sold on all imports, just Honda and Toyota/Lexus. I still dream about getting a corvette some day, I think they are great!

Well, given the opportunity you have given GM and Ford No wonder you are a huge import fan.
3 Dom. trucks and a minivan vs. 4 import cars.

stevo137
01-24-2006, 07:53 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention one of the biggest problems.

"THE UAW"!!!!!!!!!!

6ballsisall
01-24-2006, 08:26 PM
We all pay for that in the end. I think the simple answer is the short-sightedness of the management, not looking at the long term results of their actions, only the short term.


Tru Dat!!!

j2nh
01-24-2006, 10:10 PM
I think the simple answer is the short-sightedness of the management, not looking at the long term results of their actions, only the short term.

As long as the market lives and dies by quarterly statements, short-sightedness rules the day. Explosion in medical costs, aging workforce, unfunded pensions and the result is a disaster. Is it fair to expect us to bail out the Airlines and Auto industry for this? I don't think so.

ski36short
01-24-2006, 10:38 PM
As long as the market lives and dies by quarterly statements, short-sightedness rules the day. Explosion in medical costs, aging workforce, unfunded pensions and the result is a disaster. Is it fair to expect us to bail out the Airlines and Auto industry for this? I don't think so.

That's how it works in Japan and Germany, right? I do agree with what you're saying though. I wish I had the time to join in this topic more...

Cloaked
01-24-2006, 11:42 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention one of the biggest problems.

"THE UAW"!!!!!!!!!!I knew it.. A perfect lead-in for me: :D






Unions are killing this country, here is a prime example.
It is not that uncommon for as many as 14 to 18 union people to just stand around and watch while only one person is doing the work.





















http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1633/unions1vp.jpg
:D:D

Workin' 4 Toys
01-25-2006, 12:27 AM
Also, I'm not sold on all imports, just Honda and Toyota/Lexus. I still dream about getting a corvette some day, I think they are great!
As a side note, when I was shopping around not so long ago, it APPEARED to me, that SOME hondas had some of the highest %'s of domestic goods listed on the sticker. Not that I would get one, just thought it was interesting.
My neighbor has Hondas and he claims thats why he gets them, they use the most US steel of any Auto Comp. I never looked into that, but I suppose.:confused:

bcampbe7
01-25-2006, 10:26 AM
As a side note, when I was shopping around not so long ago, it APPEARED to me, that SOME hondas had some of the highest %'s of domestic goods listed on the sticker. Not that I would get one, just thought it was interesting.
My neighbor has Hondas and he claims thats why he gets them, they use the most US steel of any Auto Comp. I never looked into that, but I suppose.:confused:


So...how much of a Ford, GM, or Chrysler is really made in the USA as opposed to Honda and or Toyota?

bcampbe7
01-25-2006, 10:27 AM
I knew it.. A perfect lead-in for me: :D


Unions are killing this country, here is a prime example.
It is not that uncommon for as many as 14 to 18 union people to just stand around and watch while only one person is doing the work.

:D:D


I agree, but in that situation I can't say that I blame them!

Dan K
01-25-2006, 10:41 AM
So...how much of a Ford, GM, or Chrysler is really made in the USA as opposed to Honda and or Toyota?

It really varies alot by each model and even model year. I searched and could not find a list anywhere on the net.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-25-2006, 01:14 PM
So...how much of a Ford, GM, or Chrysler is really made in the USA as opposed to Honda and or Toyota?
Between 60 & 80% on all I'd guess without going and looking at all the window stickers again.
Toyota I have no idea, never made it their lot.

Kevin 89MC
01-25-2006, 03:35 PM
So...how much of a Ford, GM, or Chrysler is really made in the USA as opposed to Honda and or Toyota?
There was an article a while back in either Motor Trend or Car & Driver. They said it is a very complicated process for deciding what percentage of content is from what country, and where it is assembled. For a while all car companies were reporting it differently, but I think a lot of it's been standardized. One of the examples was something like "the transmission parts were made overseas, assembled in Mexico, sent to Canada for assembly into the car, then sold in the states, after some final badging is installed." Not to mention the DaimlerChrysler cars that are really mixing things up. Many of the new Chrysler cars are using several MB parts. Tough to really know anymore.

bcampbe7
01-25-2006, 03:39 PM
I guess what I am getting at is this... Is saying one should buy GM, Ford or Chrystler a valid argument for buying American? I am by no means trying to be a smart a$$. I am just curious and to be honest I like the 2006 Honda Pilot.
And if a Honda vehicle has a higher % of the build process performed in the USA are we not supporting more Americans by buying the Honda versus the GM, Ford, or Chrystler?

6ballsisall
01-25-2006, 03:42 PM
I guess what I am getting at is this... Is saying one should buy GM, Ford or Chrystler a valid argument for buying American? I am by no means trying to be a smart a$$. I am just curious and to be honest I like the 2006 Honda Pilot.


You make a valid statement Beau. IMO it's clearly a global economy in the car industry anymore.

To a prior statement about quarterly statements and P & L's. Look at the Japanese car companies, they assess their businesses with these tools as well yet they aren't broke like the Big 3........there's something else to it thats making them more sucessful....

j2nh
01-25-2006, 04:47 PM
Honda engine castings are made in my hometown in Michigan. Hard to argue with a Honda purchase in that case.

Bigger picture is the one that was mentioned earlier. Global economy and a global market.

If I can make it overseas cheaper than I can make it here should I?

The automotive industry is aging in this country. Older workforce, older factories. If you are already loosing money how do you reinvest? Everytime the auto industry starts looking up they get wacked with a new labor contract. No win situation. Overseas manufacturers are younger. They are not yet saddled with unfunded pensions and health care benefits like the Big Three are.

I have worked in management in a union environment and unions are not the cause of all problems. Nor will you find 18 people standing around watching one guy work. Maybe in the past but those days are gone. Union shops tend to be organized and for the most part well run. The problem is getting workers who have been promised benefits and pensions when they retire to accept that those days are gone and still maintain positive attitudes about their jobs. Even more difficult is getting them to accept responsibility for managing things like health care and 401k's.

Without government intervention I cannot see, from what I have read, how the big three are going to remain even remotely competitive and meet the contractual obligations that they have with their workforce. Look at the airlines and even Delphi, bankruptcy with the major goal of eliminating retirement benefits and health care. Worked for US Steel.

Pretty depressing.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-25-2006, 09:50 PM
Hmmm.... makes me wonder...

2006 Jeep commander US-76% Engine-US Trans-Germany Assem-Detroit MIch
2006 Jeep Wrangler US-82% Engine-US trans-US Assem-Toledo Ohio
2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee US-73% Engine-US Trans-Germany assem-Detroit MIch
2006 Jeep Grd Chre SRT8 US-73% Engine-Mexico Trans-Germany assem-Detroit Mich
2006 Isuzu I350 PU US-85% engine-US Trans-US assem-shreveport Louisiana
2006 Isuzu Assender Us-90% engine-US trans-US assemb-moraine Ohio
2006 Ford Explorer US-80% engine-germany trans-france assem-St louis Missouri
2006 Kia sportage US-2% Korea-92% Engine-Korea trans-Korea Assem-korea
2006 Pontiac Grand Prix US-92% engine-US trans-US assembly-oshawa canada
2006 Pontiac GTO US-20% Australia-54% engine-US trans-US assem-holten Australia
2006 Pontiac Torrent US-50% china 15% engine-china trans-japan assem-ingersol canada
2006 GMC canyon US-86% engine-US trans-US assem-shreveport louisiana
2006 GMC Sierra 1500 US-90% engine-US trans-US Assemb-oshawa Canada
2006 Mazda 5 US-0% Japan-95% engine-japan trans-japan assem-japan
2006 Honda CRV- US-5% Japan-75% engine-japan trans-japan Assem-Japan

bcampbe7
01-25-2006, 11:23 PM
Hmmm.... makes me wonder...

2006 Jeep commander US-76% Engine-US Trans-Germany Assem-Detroit MIch
2006 Jeep Wrangler US-82% Engine-US trans-US Assem-Toledo Ohio
2006 Jeep Grand Cherokee US-73% Engine-US Trans-Germany assem-Detroit MIch
2006 Jeep Grd Chre SRT8 US-73% Engine-Mexico Trans-Germany assem-Detroit Mich
2006 Isuzu I350 PU US-85% engine-US Trans-US assem-shreveport Louisiana
2006 Isuzu Assender Us-90% engine-US trans-US assemb-moraine Ohio
2006 Ford Explorer US-80% engine-germany trans-france assem-St louis Missouri
2006 Kia sportage US-2% Korea-92% Engine-Korea trans-Korea Assem-korea
2006 Pontiac Grand Prix US-92% engine-US trans-US assembly-oshawa canada
2006 Pontiac GTO US-20% Australia-54% engine-US trans-US assem-holten Australia
2006 Pontiac Torrent US-50% china 15% engine-china trans-japan assem-ingersol canada
2006 GMC canyon US-86% engine-US trans-US assem-shreveport louisiana
2006 GMC Sierra 1500 US-90% engine-US trans-US Assemb-oshawa Canada
2006 Mazda 5 US-0% Japan-95% engine-japan trans-japan assem-japan
2006 Honda CRV- US-5% Japan-75% engine-japan trans-japan Assem-Japan


Is this from the internet or dealership surfing?

Workin' 4 Toys
01-25-2006, 11:46 PM
Is this from the internet or dealership surfing?Dealership window shopping......;) It was all I had time to get in about 20 minutes.

bcampbe7
01-26-2006, 09:42 AM
Dealership window shopping......;) It was all I had time to get in about 20 minutes.


That's great information, and I am amazed that you could gather that all in 20 minutes! :cool:

Workin' 4 Toys
01-26-2006, 10:25 AM
That's great information, and I am amazed that you could gather that all in 20 minutes! :cool:
I have access within about 2 miles more dealerships than you would think. I think the only brands that are not near here are Lotus, Lambo. and ferrari. If I had a few more minutes (or cared more about the project I could have alot more) Let me see, what's in the lineup just down the road.
VW, Lexus, Toyota, BMW, Mercedez, GMC, Isuzu, Chevrolet, Land Rover, Audi, Volvo, Ford, Acura, Hummer, Porsche, Cadillac, Nissan, Subaru, Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, Kia, Buick, Pontiac, Mazda, Honda,
(I can't think if there are more right now)