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Ryan
01-09-2006, 07:03 PM
What do you think of WaterSki Mag's new buyer's guide?

I need to see a picture or the contraption they used for evaluating wakes. I still don't totally have my head wrapped around their explaination.

I miss the online videos. I like the extra stuff, but it's a lot to click through and wait for (ex: 360 view - waiting for 15 images to upload).

SKI*MC
01-09-2006, 07:06 PM
I think that wake chart it awesome! I too would like to see what they used to measure it..

rodltg2
01-09-2006, 07:50 PM
calipers :D

SKI*MC
01-09-2006, 07:55 PM
anyof you look at the X-80, that wake must be like hitting a wall!

rodltg2
01-09-2006, 09:33 PM
i like that they included some base prices to satisfy my curioisty . i did not like how some of the boats ended up split between two pages, makes it hard to get a good look. aslo i dont like that there is only one photo. didnt last years give more than one?

i was surprised to see how much the base svfara svone was. i would think if your going to compete with the big three , you need to be priced below until you make a name for yourself. i was also suprrised how inex*****ve the moomba outback is. i know its a price point boat , but its way cheaper than anything else. must be pretty crappy.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-09-2006, 10:31 PM
Gotta go to the boat show for this stuff.....

Ryan
01-10-2006, 01:52 AM
I really liked the MSRP's too.

[edit] ok, you should have been able to vote more than once.

BriEOD
01-10-2006, 08:01 AM
[QUOTE=Ryan]I really liked the MSRP's too.

Ditto!!

east tx skier
01-10-2006, 10:07 AM
MSRPs were an improvement. But it's still not as good in a straight forward kind of a way as what they gave us 13 years ago. Just rate the categories 1--5 stars.

Yeah, yeah, I know, they're afraid they'll lose ad revenue. If that's really their best excuse, I'd like to change my vote.

G-man
01-10-2006, 11:05 AM
Eastie

They didn't use Stars they used Props. They are more nautical you know.

loeweb
01-10-2006, 11:16 AM
I personally liked the wake characteristics and how they rate according to suitability on skiing/ wakeboarding/ family. I personally was p!ssed at the fact mastercraft didn't put the 190 in it though, isn't that the signature ski boat, and one that every skier knows and compares all others to? Kind of a dissapointment for me, but I bet the wakeboarders loved it.

mitch
01-10-2006, 11:35 AM
i like that they included some base prices to satisfy my curioisty . i did not like how some of the boats ended up split between two pages, makes it hard to get a good look. aslo i dont like that there is only one photo. didnt last years give more than one?

i was surprised to see how much the base svfara svone was. i would think if your going to compete with the big three , you need to be priced below until you make a name for yourself. i was also suprrised how inex*****ve the moomba outback is. i know its a price point boat , but its way cheaper than anything else. must be pretty crappy.

I agree it was pricey, but the wake on that SVone looked sweeeeet

G-man
01-10-2006, 12:00 PM
I thought the 197 was the signature slalom boat not the 190. I say that because the 197 is the "Team" edition.

east tx skier
01-10-2006, 12:22 PM
I think they left the 190 out in the 04 Guide, then it reappeared last year. I don't know why they don't put it in there.

Yes, I think MC considers the 197 as its premiere slalom boat these days. But the 190/197 are really the same boat with/without bow seating, at least for test purposes, right? Not the same as, say, a 196 versus a 206, where they each have different hulls (especially this year).

So, as much as I personally like to see all versions of the ski boats written up and pictured, the only real difference between the 190 and the 197 would be better storage under the bow in the 190 theoretically. I guess I'd prefer that they, at least, put up a nice picture of a 190, if only to make us old fogie slalom skiers feel loved. Then again, I presume MC pays for every boat tested. So if they're they same as far as tests, etc., take a dollar off those boats, throw in a new keychain, and save the buyer some money somehow.

ski_king
01-10-2006, 12:36 PM
Overall I think it is pretty good. Although I would like to see them more critical on the shortcomings of some boats, but I understand they don't want to upset their advertisers.

CoFooter
01-10-2006, 12:41 PM
Here's my thought on the buyers guide,

If you did't know any better, you'd thing every boat out there is great, Not a negative word on any boat (to protect their ad revenue as someone said) so it's a little biased.

The wake profiles on most of the hard core slalom boats are similar or the same. Hard to judge the relative difference unless you ski behind them all.

Like the MSRP's, but man is this hobby getting expensive

Could have bought an brand new 2004 Infinity ZX-1 off the lot for $28K. What is Svfara thinking? Its a great wake, but the boat is no Mastercraft.

Nice diversion in the cold Winter as I dream about Spring

rodltg2
01-10-2006, 01:26 PM
Here's my thought on the buyers guide,

If you did't know any better, you'd thing every boat out there is great, Not a negative word on any boat (to protect their ad revenue as someone said) so it's a little biased.

The wake profiles on most of the hard core slalom boats are similar or the same. Hard to judge the relative difference unless you ski behind them all.

Like the MSRP's, but man is this hobby getting expensive

Could have bought an brand new 2004 Infinity ZX-1 off the lot for $28K. What is Svfara thinking? Its a great wake, but the boat is no Mastercraft.
Nice diversion in the cold Winter as I dream about Spring


thats what im talking about. especailly such a barebones hard core ski boat. no locker, open bow etc... did they screw up the conversion?

G-man
01-10-2006, 01:27 PM
A 190 weighs 380lbs less than a 197. There is going to be a difference in the wake. The difference isn't going to be huge but I'm sure there is a good reason for MC to continue building the 190.

rodltg2
01-10-2006, 01:31 PM
it should be priced less too.

Sodar
01-14-2006, 08:31 PM
I like everything about the boat buyers guide except I am getting razzed by my Nuatique buddies. I am getting a lot of "If MasterCraft if so great, why don't they warranty their products like Nautique." Even my dad, a 3 time mastercraft owner made a comment about taking a look at the nautiques. Please, do not turn this into a nautique bashing, mine is better than yours thread. I just would seriously like to know what the deal is with this? Am I missing something with the quality of the warranty or what? I would love for some MasterCraft execs to make a few comments. It just seems a little contrary to their advertisements!

JohnnyB
01-14-2006, 09:10 PM
I spent some time browsing the WS Buyer Guide issue again today.....one more want for next season......I'd like to see both the slalom and wakeboard wakes on some of the crossover boats. The Malibu Sunsetter LXi description talks it up as a pretty good slalom boat, but all they show you for wakes is the wakeboard wake.

Hoosier Bob
01-16-2006, 07:14 PM
Did anyone catch how high the X-9/209 rated? I ski behind one regularly and am not surprised. I would have to say it is the best of all worlds and it appears WS Mag agrees. Great ski and wake boat with room all can enjoy. I am pointing this out because we tend to be very divided. Boats are all or none, one or the other. You buy a wake boat or a slalom boat. If you have a family you should learn to wake because slalom boats are typically too small. Add fat sacks and they don't get any bigger! There are a lot of us who have families but want no comprimise between sports. I want no wake and huge wake that 6 people can enjoy. Way to freakin' go MC! :D

3event
01-16-2006, 07:24 PM
It's a nice format and the online content is pretty impressive. Like EastTX, I liked when they had ratings for each usage category that you could easily glance at and compare.

But really all the magazines (car mags come to mind) are so beholden to the mfrs for demo boats, goodies, free rides, etc etc., that the content is not as critical as we would like.

I guess that's why we have places like TeamTalk ! You almost need to cruise the boards to be a really informed consumer these days....

Hoosier Bob
01-16-2006, 09:23 PM
Did anyone else notice how many dealerships there are in Indiana (all manufacturers)? Not that it matters but almost as many as California, Texas and Florida. Do we buy that many tournament boats in Indiana? That demographic was shocking. Just an observation. :confused:

skitilldark
01-17-2006, 04:38 PM
Yeah, I like the msrp's this year too. But it seems like a mag like waterski could summon the courage to rate the "best picks" in each category, length, etc.. It would be interesting just to see which boat their staff enjoys the most in each category. (Especially if they are all MasterCraft's!)

3event
01-19-2006, 03:08 PM
I finally got around to looking thru the buyer's guide, and NO ProStar190? What gives on that? I am 197er myself, but isnt the 190 a little lighter and really the best wake MC has to offer?

Just curious......

Ric
01-19-2006, 03:32 PM
I probably mentioned this before but my local dealer keeps alot of new boats on the floor yet I have never seen a 197 in the showroom.(& probably havent seen a new 190 there in 5years)
NOT that they sell themselves, but the salesman told me flat out, we sell more 209's ...... I want to say mayybe if there was a 197 on the floor.... then that little voice says, Stop ric, you're not a boat dealer. :o


I think they left the 190 out in the 04 Guide, then it reappeared last year. I don't know why they don't put it in there.

Yes, I think MC considers the 197 as its premiere slalom boat these days. But the 190/197 are really the same boat with/without bow seating, at least for test purposes, right? Not the same as, say, a 196 versus a 206, where they each have different hulls (especially this year).

So, as much as I personally like to see all versions of the ski boats written up and pictured, the only real difference between the 190 and the 197 would be better storage under the bow in the 190 theoretically. I guess I'd prefer that they, at least, put up a nice picture of a 190, if only to make us old fogie slalom skiers feel loved. Then again, I presume MC pays for every boat tested. So if they're they same as far as tests, etc., take a dollar off those boats, throw in a new keychain, and save the buyer some money somehow.

Leroy
01-19-2006, 03:39 PM
I really like the magazine. Like all was disappointed the 190 was not in. I am impressed at the number of ~20' multipurpose boats and how good their wakes are for both skiing and wakeboarding. I found it easy to read and the wake ratings and measurements are great.


I would like to see a table of results like Consumer reports for each category.
I'm going to look at a moomba the next opportunity. Price is so cheap you would think it is made in China!

east tx skier
01-19-2006, 04:03 PM
I probably mentioned this before but my local dealer keeps alot of new boats on the floor yet I have never seen a 197 in the showroom.(& probably havent seen a new 190 there in 5years)
NOT that they sell themselves, but the salesman told me flat out, we sell more 209's ...... I want to say mayybe if there was a 197 on the floor.... then that little voice says, Stop ric, you're not a boat dealer. :o

For two years after I bought my boat from them, I used to stop by on my way through Houston to see if they had a 197. Eventually, I quit stopping by. I've said it before, but, hypothetically, if I'm ever going to drop the kind of cash on a new boat that they expect me to drop, they'd better have one for me to sit in.

3event
01-19-2006, 04:35 PM
Are we in danger of being lost to the wakeboard lifestyle where blinged up maxxed out boats generate more profit....where all the younguns with lowrise jeans hang out and watch their homies shreddin 360s and wicked sick grabs ???

I had some enlightened coworkers describe my 197 as a "base boat", ie that all the really cool wakeboarding boats were based on lesser models like this.

HELLO....world records? 5-event approved? BEST BOAT IN THE WORLD FOR WHAT I WANT TO DO. Give me my HO and my Eagle Barefoot suit, let's see you young chumps longline deep and 1foot toehold.........

/rant done
/feel better

rodltg2
01-19-2006, 04:53 PM
i dont think any of the mc wave boats our based on a 197 hull, however i know where your coming from. some people see a 197 with a tower or any other tournament ski boat with a tower and assume that its wakeboarder who couldnt afford the bigger boat.

Ric
01-19-2006, 05:05 PM
For two years after I bought my boat from them, I used to stop by on my way through Houston to see if they had a 197. Eventually, I quit stopping by. I've said it before, but, hypothetically, if I'm ever going to drop the kind of cash on a new boat that they expect me to drop, they'd better have one for me to sit in.
I think they had a 197 at the show 2 years ago, I guess it was a 35th because it had all the chrome stuff but it may have been a dolled up 04 sammy??

I had to use my imagination in the purchasing process, I drove and skiid an 04 he had on demo but the only 05 I drove and skiid prior to purchasing was a new smellin, new lookin 05 x7 at the dealer in Dallas, whew!! I remember it like it was yesterday :D

André
01-19-2006, 07:27 PM
Are we in danger of being lost to the wakeboard lifestyle where blinged up maxxed out boats generate more profit....where all the younguns with lowrise jeans hang out and watch their homies shreddin 360s and wicked sick grabs ???
I would say yes... :(

skitilldark
01-19-2006, 07:29 PM
I would say yes... :(

I think we already have. Check out any lake in the US these days.

André
01-19-2006, 07:37 PM
I think we already have. Check out any lake in the US these days.
I'd like too...but i live in Canada! :D :D ;)

skitilldark
01-19-2006, 07:39 PM
I'd like too...but i live in Canada! :D :D ;)


hey, how's the skiing up there!

Hoosier Bob
01-19-2006, 08:43 PM
Very tough to teach kids these days to Slalom when they pop right up and are tricking on a wakeboard in minutes! Maybe more dedicated parents but then again maybe a little discouraging. The wakes kill the water, docked boats and the landscape. They are fun but at some point I think we will be run off. I enjoy all but slalom and kneeboarding are my favorite. The 209 is the least offensive best slalom boat that transcends both worlds. I think my kids appreciate the fact that I know nothing about wakey and they can do what they want without my bi*#$@&*! :twocents:

skitilldark
01-20-2006, 01:59 PM
Very tough to teach kids these days to Slalom when they pop right up and are tricking on a wakeboard in minutes! Maybe more dedicated parents but then again maybe a little discouraging. The wakes kill the water, docked boats and the landscape. They are fun but at some point I think we will be run off. I enjoy all but slalom and kneeboarding are my favorite. The 209 is the least offensive best slalom boat that transcends both worlds. I think my kids appreciate the fact that I know nothing about wakey and they can do what they want without my bi*#$@&*! :twocents:


Last summer I saw a family(in a MC of course) teaching what I estimated to be a 5 or 6 year old to slalom(and he was doing great). It warmed my heart.

jayocheskey
01-20-2006, 02:42 PM
Last summer I saw a family(in a MC of course) teaching what I estimated to be a 5 or 6 year old to slalom(and he was doing great). It warmed my heart.

That is pretty impressive. I guess the younger the better. The smaller kids have a whole lot less weight to pull up.

jayocheskey
01-20-2006, 02:46 PM
Very tough to teach kids these days to Slalom when they pop right up and are tricking on a wakeboard in minutes! Maybe more dedicated parents but then again maybe a little discouraging. The wakes kill the water, docked boats and the landscape. They are fun but at some point I think we will be run off. I enjoy all but slalom and kneeboarding are my favorite. The 209 is the least offensive best slalom boat that transcends both worlds. I think my kids appreciate the fact that I know nothing about wakey and they can do what they want without my bi*#$@&*! :twocents:
Wakeboarding will not be able to replace the "speed seekers" need for the slalom. I have been wakeboarding for about 4 years now and still crave the slalom on occasion - just to haul balls and spray. I never got to big into kneeboarding because of the stress on my knees. Wakeboarding may have already grown to be more popular than slalom, but it can't ever replace it.

skitilldark
01-20-2006, 02:47 PM
That is pretty impressive. I guess the younger the better. The smaller kids have a whole lot less weight to pull up.

I can't imagine learning at that age. I didn't really learn to slalom until I was about 14 and only then by dropping a ski.

rodltg2
01-24-2006, 08:34 PM
i was thumbing through the guide again last night and was wondering why the sea level line is different on each tests. what does that line really represent?

Ryan
01-25-2006, 12:52 AM
i was thumbing through the guide again last night and was wondering why the sea level line is different on each tests. what does that line really represent?

Exactly why we need a little video fottage of this contraption they used, and some better explaination.

rodltg2
01-26-2006, 02:25 PM
after looking at the tests again, it appears to me that the sea level line may represent the wake table.

rodltg2
02-07-2006, 03:59 PM
some of the boat manufacturers had a two page layout for some boat models and only one for others. looks like nautique went double truck on all their models. do think this cost them money?

Ryan
02-07-2006, 06:12 PM
That stuff always seems so political.

I have wondered if they have some deal going on. Something like this: X Brand, "Well, since MC gets the back of every issue we want a full spread for all of our boats and our ads right next to MC boat reviews." Take a look at the 05 guide.

I guess they either pay more, or there is a little kickback from X brand to WSM editors. Like maybe a new promo boat that X brand just happens to be lying around that no one else wants. It seems like something shady is going on since they stopped being critical and objective of any boat. I want to know who threatened to pull ad buys.

rodltg2
02-07-2006, 09:21 PM
i rememebr one year ( cant remember which ) nautique was not in the boat buyers guide at all. soemthing fishy must have happened there..

SKI*MC
02-07-2006, 09:24 PM
I noticed that for the Gecko Boat Co. section of the Magazine, when they are just talking about the boats and what not, they have some pics of water skiiers, or wakeboarders, and they use a MasterCraft picture. You can only see the bow of the MC, but i have seen MC run that picture in an ad..

Ryan
02-08-2006, 11:41 AM
i rememebr one year ( cant remember which ) nautique was not in the boat buyers guide at all. soemthing fishy must have happened there..


Anyone know what year that was? Or do you have it mixed up with BoatingLife? :D

TRBenj
02-08-2006, 01:20 PM
Anyone know what year that was? Or do you have it mixed up with BoatingLife? :D

I believe it was sometime around 2000-2001 when CC didnt send boats to participate in WSM's tests. Instead, they ran ads that encouraged potential buyers to test the boats for themselves. I have heard that CC wasn't happy that all manufacturers were getting good reviews, and no boats were being criticized. This may be pure speculation, but it makes sense to me.

I think they returned in 2002 when they introduced the TSC2 hull. Probably figured the exposure was worth participating.

Ric
02-08-2006, 01:55 PM
I believe it was sometime around 2000-2001 when CC didnt send boats to participate in WSM's tests. Instead, they ran ads that encouraged potential buyers to test the boats for themselves. I have heard that CC wasn't happy that all manufacturers were getting good reviews, and no boats were being criticized. This may be pure speculation, but it makes sense to me.

I think they returned in 2002 when they introduced the TSC2 hull. Probably figured the exposure was worth participating.
could be... and it coincides with the shampoo years :rolleyes: