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east tx skier
12-13-2005, 10:32 AM
I recall some time back someone making inquiries about the dripless shaft seal such as the one sold at skidim. Any updates on it? How difficult is the install? Any issues with it? Worth it in your opinion?

Tom023
12-13-2005, 10:49 AM
Got one sitting on the work bench waiting to be installed. I'm not looking forward to it with the V-drive, but once I get it in I'll let you know how it went. I think getting the shaft out of the coupler will be hardest part since the setup doesn't let you press it out with a socket. Space is limited at the log, but not impossible to get to.

east tx skier
12-13-2005, 11:18 AM
Keep me posted. It may just be easier to have it repacked. If anyone wants to put up a how to w/ pics to repacking a traditional shaft seal, please don't hesitate.

Danimal
12-13-2005, 11:45 AM
Keep me posted. It may just be easier to have it repacked. If anyone wants to put up a how to w/ pics to repacking a traditional shaft seal, please don't hesitate.

I would be greatly interested in a traditional "how-to" photo tutorial. I really don't want to pay the dealer to do since I have heard it is "easy".

MarkP
12-13-2005, 11:52 AM
Doug, I think the most important part of the install would be lining everything up after installation. Iíve been thinking about adding one to my boat the next time the shaft is out for any reason.

martini
12-13-2005, 12:01 PM
the part is very easy to install once you are able to un-couple the prop shaft from the transmission, also assuming you are able to remove the coupler from the shaft. That, by far, is the hardest part of the whole process. I would also remove the propeller first, so as not to ding it up with a loose propshaft. That was the best part I ever installed on my boat and worked really good. It was also nice not to ever have to worry about the stuff box anymore. Well worth it in my opinion.

martini
12-13-2005, 12:04 PM
Really, shaft alignment is not going to be an issue after this install. You haven't moved the engine in relation to it's position in the boat and you aren't replacing the shaft with a new one. As long as the engine is not moved, it will align right up when complete. Every single one I've installed(have checked alignment on each one) did not require any adjustement of the engine to make the coupler flush and I have experience no vibration issues either.

east tx skier
12-13-2005, 12:36 PM
Actually, I was talking about a pictorial how-to on the traditional wax rope replacement. If I had this installed, I'd let someone with a bit more mechanical know-how than me handle it.

Glad to know you think it's worthwhile though. Still mulling it.

martini
12-13-2005, 12:44 PM
From what I've seen with the "traditional" style of packing. Never actually replaced any, but did witness it being done. You cut pieces and wrap them around the shaft, offsetting the butt ends(picture laying bricks with offset joints) until you fill up the stuff box. The butt ends must be tight. The packing nut will secure things in place and obviously controls water drip or "lubrication" to the joint. Too tight, no water gets in.....to loose and....well, you get the picture.

ski_500
12-13-2005, 01:00 PM
I repacked by stuffing a couple of years ago. I used a silicon impregnated rope instead of the traditional wax. It's available Boater'sWorld, Boat USA, West Marine, etc...

It's been working fine.

jimmer2880
12-13-2005, 01:26 PM
I agree with everything Martini has said on both the dripless & traditional rope installs.

It's about 2x as long to install the dripless packing as it is to replace the rope. And the rope is like 100x cheaper (~$10.00 vs ~$200.00). But - I absolutely love the PSS system I bought from DIM 5 years ago. It's not that difficult. The worst part is getting the coupler off of the shaft. But - if you have someone who can hold the prop while you turn the ratchet - it's not that hard either.

peason
12-13-2005, 02:31 PM
Are all the newer boats dripless? In particular I have a 2003-209 and I thought I read somewhere that it has a dripless shaft.

dchatagnon
12-13-2005, 03:19 PM
I just bought one this year from skidim. I have already removed the shaft/coupler. now i'm waiting for a new propeller shaft.
I will post some pics when I will install the PSS system probably next week.

planoboy
12-13-2005, 04:26 PM
here is a how-to w/ pics.
doing it w/o taking anything out of the boat is not bad.
R/plano
http://www.diy-boat.com/Pages/Archives/links/eng99_2.html

east tx skier
12-14-2005, 11:40 AM
Thanks a bunch. I'll check it out.

pilot02
12-14-2005, 11:52 AM
OK, having read the article, I now have a question. Since the packing is avail in a variety of different sizes, if you were to change shaft sizes from 1" to 1.5" do you really have to replace the stuffing box or can you get by with just changing the packing thickness?

Jorski
12-14-2005, 11:56 AM
I believe that you would have to change the stuffing box....looks like way less than 1/2 an inch gap on mine....I have a 1 inch shaft.

stumbledog
12-14-2005, 12:01 PM
Sidebar comment: It seems to be that it is necessary to access this region of the boat on a regular basis...............lube you steering, inspect stuffing box etc. However the "access hatch" is secured with screws that screw into the fiberglass beneath. IMO this is a poor design. Does anyone have a solution for this besides just leaving the screws out?

east tx skier
12-14-2005, 12:07 PM
stumbledog, not really an answer to your question, but since you have a 93, I'll pass on some helpful info that I received. You can get the access panel up without removing the motorbox lid. Just leave the motorbox attached to the panel (remove the gas shocks of course), unscrew the floor panel and slied it toward the motor while lifting it up. Rest the panel on the manifold risers and support the motorbox with a broomstick or something tall. I like the later design where the access panel was separate from the small panel where the motorbox attached.

While you probably don't really need the screws as it is such a tight fit, with the motorbox attached to it, I'd just screw it down. I'm only under there once per year max. That honeycomb aluminum does not take stress well. I had to reinfoce my motorbox attachment points last year because they had pulled through.

Hunterb
12-14-2005, 02:15 PM
Hi guys,

I see in the above post that there is a reference to this material. It apparently works very well, but I have not tried it myself. It's a lot cheaper than a dripless seal and accomplishes almost the same thing, or so they claim.

Has anyone installed this stuff?

See website below

http://www.e-marine-inc.com/products/gfopacking/packing.html

Bruce

chico
12-15-2005, 05:59 PM
I installed it this spring and have"nt had a drop in the bilge.

rasmithaz
12-15-2005, 09:24 PM
Sidebar comment: It seems to be that it is necessary to access this region of the boat on a regular basis...............lube you steering, inspect stuffing box etc. However the "access hatch" is secured with screws that screw into the fiberglass beneath. IMO this is a poor design. Does anyone have a solution for this besides just leaving the screws out?


I installed a dripless system that requires a shot of grease occasionally to keep the "donut" gasket set firmly around the prop shaft. I don't like messing around with the packing gland on the traditional stuffing box and I knew that access to the dripless system would be an issue. I installed a 5 inch deck plate directly over the grease fitting. It's a clean install and the access problem is solved. The drippless system is a far superior product then the stuffing box. The only hurdle for the purists is getting past the idea that you have to cut a hole in the access panel and look at a deck plate.

wesgardner
12-16-2005, 08:22 AM
I don't know, I guess I'm an old school guy, the traditional stuffing box is something I understand and can rebuild at will, furthermore, with the newer packing material it's pretty trouble free.

Oh, and someone was asking about switching to a larger shaft - put a new stuffing box on your list as well as at least boring out your coupling...the stern tube (the fiberglass tube glassed in the boat) will probably take the increase in diameter...measure first... ;)


Wes

rem_pss308
12-20-2005, 04:04 AM
I have it installed on mine. It works great. No leaks, been going strong since summer of 2004


Hi guys,

I see in the above post that there is a reference to this material. It apparently works very well, but I have not tried it myself. It's a lot cheaper than a dripless seal and accomplishes almost the same thing, or so they claim.

Has anyone installed this stuff?

See website below

http://www.e-marine-inc.com/products/gfopacking/packing.html

Bruce

cloisel
12-20-2005, 05:56 AM
I installed GFO rope packing (3 pieces of rope) in my stuffing box last winter and set it on the edge of dripping. From then I have had no water in the bilge and no vibrations or any other problem. Shaft is in great condition, so in conclusion this is a relatively cheap investment for the mind-free feeling it gives...
Clement

Storm861triple
12-27-2005, 10:26 AM
I installed the PSS seal in mine three years ago. It features 3 things that packing seal users can only dream about:
1. Zero leakage
2. Zero measurable friction (and zero resulting wear to the shaft)
3. Zero Maintenance.

My parents used to be into antique cars when I was a kid. We had a 1910 Hudson touring car. Gorgeous car, but it had packing on the water pump drive shaft -exactly like what you see under the floor of a "modern" inboard boat. The Packing on the Hudson's water pump was always leaking/dripping, and my dad had to regularly tighten it to prevent a mess where ever the car was parked. I think we can all agree that 95 years later, better technology exists. And it does. Why don't modern cars use packing on their water pump drive shafts, if it's so great? Because it's not great. Packing seals leak, require maintenance, and creat friction, heat and wear.

EJ OJPROP
12-28-2005, 07:59 AM
Master Craft began using our dripless shaft seal as standard on all 2005 boats. If anyone has questions regarding the seal feel free to give me a call, 800-359-9730 or check it out at the web site, ojprops.com, under XPC products. Eric

Leroy
12-28-2005, 09:19 AM
Welcome EJ OJPROP! I just read all of your posts and it's great to have someone like you on the message board.

jimmer2880
12-28-2005, 12:53 PM
Ok - OJ.... how much for your dripless system? I'm just curious - I already have the PSS system.

It's always nice to see factory support on here. :woohoo:

EJ OJPROP
12-28-2005, 02:42 PM
The system is retailing for $150.00.

Jorski
12-28-2005, 04:56 PM
Can you tell us more about how it works ? It is hard to tell from the picture on the website how a seal is formed.

Dan K
12-28-2005, 05:09 PM
The system is retailing for $150.00.

Is there a Teamtalk discount available ?

OhioProstar
12-29-2005, 02:23 PM
OJ Prop,
I didn't see anything on your website regarding the seal. Could you post a PDF link?

jimmer2880
12-29-2005, 02:57 PM
OJ Prop,
I didn't see anything on your website regarding the seal. Could you post a PDF link?

here you go

http://www.ojprops.com/xpc_flyer.pdf

Footin
12-29-2005, 03:00 PM
I like the fact that the shaft leaks alittle water into the bilge.
When I get to the lake and install the plug, I put a couple drops of dish soap in the bilge, then during the day as water washes around with the dish soap it keeps the bilge nice and clean.

OhioProstar
12-29-2005, 03:09 PM
Footin...that is a pretty good idea. A little simple green would keep the grease to a minimum too.

chico
12-30-2005, 10:33 AM
Oj Props
How Much Is That Seal?

6ballsisall
12-30-2005, 10:57 AM
I like the fact that the shaft leaks alittle water into the bilge.
When I get to the lake and install the plug, I put a couple drops of dish soap in the bilge, then during the day as water washes around with the dish soap it keeps the bilge nice and clean.


Mike is that how you do the dishes on a camping trip too? :D

My shaft seal doesn't leak a drip and I love it! My 86' had a good drip to it and it wasn't that big of a deal but really enjoy a dry bilge area (I don't have a dripless shaft either)

east tx skier
12-30-2005, 11:32 AM
So your traditional packing doesn't drip? Maybe you want to adjust the nut so it does (just a bit).

EJ OJPROP
01-02-2006, 07:04 AM
The seal is formed from the double lip seals in the housing. The lip seals are made of carbon / graphite not the traditional nitril rubber seal. The carbon / graphite seal will not dry out like the standard rubber seal, providing longer seal life.

dchatagnon
01-14-2006, 02:25 PM
I have installed today the PSS dripless system on my 93 ps190 for 1'' shaft diameter.
The inside diameter of the carbon flange is greather than 1''. so the carbon can move a bit around the shaft. is this normal?
Following the manual the below compression is 0.8'' (20mm) for a 1'' shaft.
I'm wondering if this value is enough because I can still move back with my ends the carbon flange from the rotor ... before to test it on the water, I would like to be sure that it won't be a big mess of water in the bilge...
If anyone have already installed it, can you confirm it's normal?
thanks a lot.

Damien

Tom023
01-14-2006, 03:20 PM
I'm planning to install mine tomorrow so will let you know how it turns out. I believe that it is normal to be able to compress it more. One of the cleaning procedures, if necessary, is to run a rag between the carbon and rotor, so there must be a little give.

Storm861triple
01-14-2006, 03:44 PM
The inside diameter of the carbon flange is greather than 1''. so the carbon can move a bit around the shaft. is this normal?
Yes.
Following the manual the below compression is 0.8'' (20mm) for a 1'' shaft. I'm wondering if this value is enough because I can still move back with my ends the carbon flange from the rotor ...If anyone have already installed it, can you confirm it's normal?
Yes, it's normal. You did everything correctly, and it won't leak. you're going to love it. Now that you have a basically frictionless seal, test your drive train alignment; see if you can turn your prop w/a pinky. :D

dchatagnon
01-15-2006, 04:21 AM
Ok, thanks Storm861triple.
Here is a final picture of the installation. Can you check on the attached photo if everything looks good?
Thanks again.

Damien

Tom023
01-15-2006, 09:05 AM
Maybe it's there and I just can't see it but you should have a hose clamp on your water feed to the seal.

Storm861triple
01-15-2006, 11:19 AM
Can you check on the attached photo if everything looks good?
Other than what Tom 023 said, it looks perfect. You'll be very happy w/it. You don't NEED a hose clamp on the cooling water hose; there isn't enough pressure there to blow the hose off. However, it's a good idea to have it clamped, "just in case". ;)

-Tom

dchatagnon
01-15-2006, 12:22 PM
I have installed the hose clamp today.
Anyway thanks guys for all your help. Now I feel more confident when I will run it on the first time with the new PSS.

Farmer Ted
01-15-2006, 01:58 PM
The seal is formed from the double lip seals in the housing. The lip seals are made of carbon / graphite not the traditional nitril rubber seal. The carbon / graphite seal will not dry out like the standard rubber seal, providing longer seal life.


Are these available for 1" shafts?

Are there installation instructions included?

Storm861triple
01-17-2006, 08:47 PM
Yes (I have one for a 1" shaft on my '92) and

Yes.

-Tom

Farmer Ted
01-17-2006, 09:19 PM
Yes (I have one for a 1" shaft on my '92) and

Yes.

-Tom

Thanks T!

How difficult was it to install?

88 PS190
01-17-2006, 09:36 PM
How bout this question... where does the water hose go to? Is there a t fitting off something, or do you run a hole in the hull like a through hull speedo?

Tom023
01-17-2006, 09:43 PM
T-fitting in one of the manifold hoses coming out of the thermostat housing.

dchatagnon
01-20-2006, 03:58 PM
Hi Ted,

Concerning the installion procedure. It's esay to do.
FIrst thing is to remove the coupler from your shaft for:
getting out the old stuffing box and installing the PSS.
This is the biggest thing of the work! bu the idea is to place a small "key" between the 2 couplers and then put some longer screws and tight it.
then it will push away the sahft from the coupler.

Other thing: before to install the PSS, clean your shaft and be sure that there is nothing that could damage when you will slide the rotor.
If you want a detail procedure just go to the PSS website:

http://www.shaftseal.com/pss-shaft-seal-installation-instruction.html

Damien.

Farmer Ted
04-01-2006, 03:27 PM
Are the strut bearings included with this XPC deal or do I need to buy them seperately?

Tom023
04-01-2006, 04:10 PM
Separately. I did those too without any difficulty. The old ones came out easily with a slide hammer, the new ones just tap in after freezing them in dry ice for about three hours. I'm going to run mine tomorrow for the first time since I installed the seal and the bearings.

Farmer Ted
04-01-2006, 04:17 PM
Separately. I did those too without any difficulty. The old ones came out easily with a slide hammer, the new ones just tap in after freezing them in dry ice for about three hours. I'm going to run mine tomorrow for the first time since I installed the seal and the bearings.


3 hours in dry ice, I'd be afraid they'd shatter from being brittle.

We used to put all kinds of bugs and water bottles in drip pans when servicing LOX, -297 is probably a bit colder than dry ice though....

Did you do the OJ Vesconite bearing?
How much did they cost?

thanks!

Tom023
04-01-2006, 04:50 PM
I think dry ice is something like -120 F, it worked well. I did use the OJ Vesconite bearings and ordered directly from Eric at OJ, they were $45 plus shipping which was $7 I think. Not much too them, they almost look like a piece of white PVC with some grooves cut for water flow. Eric indicated the grooves should be aligned for better water flow through the bearings.

east tx skier
04-01-2006, 05:18 PM
How much longer with the dripless units last over that gortex packing you can get at skidim. I just used the wax and paid $.44 at my dealer for it. Not ever having to worry about adjusting it is nice, but the gortex stuff supposedly hardly drips. You just snug the nut and go. What is the service life of these dripless systems versus the $11 gortex stuff?

Tom023
04-01-2006, 07:07 PM
I think the PSS seal is pretty much considered lifetime, not much to wear out and the carborn and stainless steel "rotors" have a lot of wear available before they would have to be replaced. Not too sure about the OJ system, the seal is made completely differently and in my opinion subject to more wear. Adjusting a traditional packing gland is such a pain in a V-drive, anything that gives you a longer service life is worth it. If I had a DD, maybe wouldn't bother.

east tx skier
04-01-2006, 07:50 PM
My local dealer gave me the impression that the dripless systems he'd seen did wear out. But I don't know what the service life is. He told me to just stick with the original, which I did. In a v-drive, I can see your point.

Tom023
04-01-2006, 08:56 PM
I didn't see anything on the PSS website in terms of service life except "The carbon/graphite flange and stainless steel rotor should never need replacing under normal operation conditions", and did see this testimonial:

"She did this for a total of 13,140 hours on the main engines before we had to replace our first seal. This was due to having to run for about five weeks on a bent port shaft while we waited to get a new shaft..."

That's more hours than I'll ever put on my boat, not that everyone can expect this, but the design doesn't seem to be too susceptible to wearing out. I'm sure the other parts could fail as well. Not sure about the OJ seal as it's different.

east tx skier
04-01-2006, 10:20 PM
That sure is a lot of hours. Sounds like pretty darn near forever. But apparently, my local dealer has seen at least one fail. Sounds like it may have been a fluke to me.

herringtech
04-01-2006, 11:04 PM
I put one in my first boat (Ski Nautique) and it wasnt terribly hard. You do need to remove the shaft from the transmission though which was kind of tough. Once that is done it is a breese.

It worked increadibly. No maintence at all and my bilge was almost completely dry every time out. I will probably put one in my 98 X-Star soon.

Tom023
04-02-2006, 08:05 AM
I have heard that if you boat in sandy areas and get a lot into your bilge, and if that sand works it's way between the graphite and the rotor, it can cause leaks. If it scores either, I would think a replacement is required. It will be interesting to see how the OJ seal remains dripless, which is another reason why I moved away from the stuffing box, in additon to the accessability issues. I know MC is putting the OJ seal on as standard equipment, and am wondering if anyone has had any issues.

dchatagnon
04-23-2006, 12:06 PM
I have installed this winter a PSS shaft seal on my boat.
After running it more than 1 hour (breaking period should be done), I still have a very small leak on the bilge. I have added 1/4'' more of compression on the bellow, but there is still some water coming... Specially when I'm running above 25Mph. Should I add 1/4'' of compression more? Normally for a 1'' shaft PSS indicates to compress the bellow with 0,8''. I have checked both carbon flange and rotor and they are all clean. (no grease or silicon on it..)
Thanks for your help!

Storm861triple
04-24-2006, 12:04 AM
I have a PSS seal and it has performed flawlessly for me. As a matter of fact, it didn't even leak the first time out w/it. IMO the boats should come w/this technology standard.

Anyway, If you're still leaking I doubt another 1/4" of compression is going to help. How much did you compress the billows to start off with?

If you compressed the billows the correct amount, I'd pull the Stainless ring back and check both surfaces. If there is no obvious flaw, then I'd check drivetrain/seal alignment. I've yet to see any Mastercraft that comes from the factory with the proper drive train alignment, and the alignment doesn't get any better by itself.

-Tom

dchatagnon
04-24-2006, 08:07 AM
Tom,

Thanks for your answer. I have started to compress the billows with 0,8'' as recomended on the PSS installation guide. Then added a 1/4'' compression.
Alignment has been check and all is fine. Shaft is brand new and strut bushings also.
Transmission has been rebuilt also.
Do you think I should go back to a compression of 0,8''? I have contacted also PSS company. We will see what they answer.
Thanks.
Damien

Storm861triple
04-24-2006, 10:22 AM
Sounds like you have done everything correctly. I would go back to .08" again, and wait to hear what PSS says. If it contimues to leak one of the two surfaces must have a blemish in it, IMO.

One last thing; when you installed the billows onto the propshaft log, did you "work it" so that the carbon ring was pretty much centered around the prop shaft (rather than laying on it)? That shouldn't matter really, but all the ones I've installed, I take extra time to make sure that EVERYTHING is aligned squarely and centered, from one end to the other.

-Tom

dchatagnon
04-24-2006, 10:37 AM
OK. Yes, the carbon ring looks centered around the prop shaft.

dchatagnon
04-25-2006, 03:43 AM
Here is the answer from the PSS support:

Things to check on your seal:
> - Make sure the bellow is not slid down over the shaft log too far. The
>shaft log should not extend up into the ribs of the bellow.
> - Make sure there is not too much water being fed to the seal. What is the
>pick-up for the water. You could try reducing the flow to the seal.
> - Are the shaft and shaft log running true to each other? Sometimes you
>can reposition the bellow so it runs more in line with the shaft.

dchatagnon
05-02-2006, 04:51 AM
OK. I have re-checked everything on the PSS and re-compress it with .08"
No more leak and it's running great.
I have found another leak, which was from the speedometer ballast tube...
I realized it with the wet carpet at the rear of the driver side... With this I could put half a inch of water in the bilge when running at high speed.
Changed it and now the bilge is completely dry when running and also when the boat is sitting on the water for a long period of time.

Storm861triple
05-02-2006, 01:41 PM
Cool. Good job!

Now that you have a frictionless shaft seal, you can see how aligned your drive train is just by turning your prop by hand. If you can turn it w/your pinky, then it's good. If not, then it could probably use some attention.

-Tom

dchatagnon
05-03-2006, 03:07 AM
Yes. I can turn it easily with my fingers. The boat is running great. No vibration at all.
I have changed a lot of things this winter! but now I really appreciate it ! :)
(New propeller/NEW shaft/ PSS dripless seal/New strut bushings/New dampler plate/Transmission rebuilt)

Storm861triple
05-03-2006, 10:16 AM
Awesome! I had to do all that stuff when I first bought my boat, PLUS the strut itself. It was a lot of work but well worth it, as you now know. I don't believe any direct drive boat comes from the factory properly aligned. Every one I've ever seen/checked/worked on has been all out of whack. When I did mine right after I bought it....well that was 5 years and 550 hours ago, and it's still perfect. :)

Good job on the drive train improvements.

-Tom