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Cloaked
12-12-2005, 04:28 PM
Interesting...Shooting a lock open...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5.htm

Workin' 4 Toys
12-12-2005, 04:34 PM
The page cannot be displayed



Not sure if it was me.... but an interesting topic I could not get access to...
What is it?

bigmac
12-12-2005, 04:42 PM
Interesting...Shooting a lock open...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5.htm

We used to address locks using breaching rounds out of a sawed-off shotgun. These were made by DefTec and contained some kind of dental filling stuff - powdered zinc I think. They were called "Hatton Rounds" and would take out a padlock or a dead bolt no sweat - hold the barrel up close. The reason they're not used anymore is that one of the TAC teams south of here had pieces of a door lock go flying across the room on the inside and injure a child.

Now, we're using explosive breaching - several feet of det cord held against the lock side of the door with a long stick. Hard to believe that's safer, but I guess it is. The actual length of det cord used is calculated by the EOD guys according to some arcane formula. When we first started using the technique, we had a couple of doors not go in. That's embarassing...

Workin' 4 Toys
12-12-2005, 04:48 PM
This sounds like the same technique I saw the Duke's use last night....;)

PendO
12-12-2005, 05:40 PM
I always find those pictures quite funny ... if I want in your lock I will just you a good pair of bolt cutters and keep it on the down low ... shooting a masterlock is a bit Clint Eastwood:)

PendO
12-12-2005, 05:42 PM
We used to address locks using breaching rounds out of a sawed-off shotgun. These were made by DefTec and contained some kind of dental filling stuff - powdered zinc I think. They were called "Hatton Rounds" and would take out a padlock or a dead bolt no sweat - hold the barrel up close. The reason they're not used anymore is that one of the TAC teams south of here had pieces of a door lock go flying across the room on the inside and injure a child.

Now, we're using explosive breaching - several feet of det cord held against the lock side of the door with a long stick. Hard to believe that's safer, but I guess it is. The actual length of det cord used is calculated by the EOD guys according to some arcane formula. When we first started using the technique, we had a couple of doors not go in. That's embarassing...

BigMac - are you a volunteer on the SWAT team? :) Your breadth of knowledge is overwhelming!

bigmac
12-12-2005, 06:53 PM
BigMac - are you a volunteer on the SWAT team? :) Your breadth of knowledge is overwhelming!I am the medical director for the TAC Team (http://www.pbase.com/hmac/tac_team) in this county (we don't use the word "SWAT" - too Hollywood :D ) for about 15 years. I have 8 paramedics that I "direct". We have to train and qualify to the same standards. Except for me - I'm too old, and my value to the team isn't very much related to my physical abilities. I try to keep up, though :D . I'm also the Assistant Coroner for this county. I have 12 Deputy Coroners for death investigations, but I always get called for investigations on suspicious deaths. This is a pretty quiet corner of the midwest, so neither job is particularly overwhelming..at least it wasn't until methamphetamine became such a big deal. Most of our warrants are done early enough in the morning that I can still be at work by 6AM. The super-dramatic hostage scenarios are rare around here - fortunately - because they're terribly time consuming and it can get darn cold crouching in the woods for any length of time.

Cloaked
12-12-2005, 07:08 PM
Not sure if it was me.... but an interesting topic I could not get access to...
What is it?It's a good link... :friday:

jimmer2880
12-12-2005, 08:38 PM
Interesting...Shooting a lock open...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot5.htm

Very intersting.... Thanks.

In Highschool, another kid & I were having our issues with each other. He never had a lock on his locker, so one day I put one on for him. They tried bolt cutters and everything they had. They ended up breaking the hasp off of the locker to get in.

I too laugh at the movies when they will shoot a lock off. Some of those things are tougher than they look. On the other hand, though, some, you can just hit with a rock & they will pop right open.

SKI*MC
12-12-2005, 08:45 PM
wow! that is intersesting. haha, i would love to see in a movie somone shoot a lock for a door, and smash themselves into the door thinking it would open and they just bounce off the hit the ground! LOL!

Workin' 4 Toys
12-13-2005, 11:16 PM
Got it from a different comp. Favorite quote of the site....

So, it was time for the .44 Magnum, "The most powerful handgun in the world and capable of blowing your head clean off!", at least according to Dirty Harry.

BriEOD
12-13-2005, 11:31 PM
Now, we're using explosive breaching - several feet of det cord held against the lock side of the door with a long stick. Hard to believe that's safer, but I guess it is. The actual length of det cord used is calculated by the EOD guys according to some arcane formula. When we first started using the technique, we had a couple of doors not go in. That's embarassing...

Are they using det cord (PETN engrained with rubber and asphalt about the diameter of a thick shoe lace) or are they using FLSC (Flexible Linear Shape Charge)? The FLSC also comes in roles but is much safer and more discriminate than det cord. I noticed a lot more breeching charges are using shape charges.

Det cord is some wild stuff. If you stretched a length of it from the eastern US coast to the western US coast and initiated the detonation it would run coast to coast in 13 minutes and change. :headbang:

Also, not to pick on you Big Mac, but I doubt those guys on the SWAT team are EOD guys, ICBW. EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) is the Bomb Squad. It takes a hell of a lot more training to take a device apart than to stick a blasting cap in a block of C-4 and make it go bang. My assumption is they are just demolition rated, I doubt they take devices apart.

Sorry, just a pet peeve of most EOD folk. ICBW, but to be true EOD trained they either had to go to the Federal/Police EOD course at Red Stone Arsenal, AL or the military EOD School at Indian Head, MD--PERIOD. No other training is recognized by the US Government, Police Agencies and especially not the military. Than, their is even a big rift between the military school and the civilian school. The military one is about a year and the civilian one about 3 months. Who would you rather have? Their is probably a similar assumption/stereotype in your field of medicine. :twocents:

bigmac
12-14-2005, 12:31 AM
Also, not to pick on you Big Mac, but I doubt those guys on the SWAT team are EOD guys, ICBW. EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) is the Bomb Squad. It takes a hell of a lot more training to take a device apart than to stick a blasting cap in a block of C-4 and make it go bang. My assumption is they are just demolition rated, I doubt they take devices apart.

Sorry, just a pet peeve of most EOD folk. ICBW, but to be true EOD trained they either had to go to the Federal/Police EOD course at Red Stone Arsenal, AL or the military EOD School at Indian Head, MD--PERIOD. No other training is recognized by the US Government, Police Agencies and especially not the military. Than, their is even a big rift between the military school and the civilian school. The military one is about a year and the civilian one about 3 months. Who would you rather have? Their is probably a similar assumption in your field of medicine. :twocents:These guys aren't TAC, but Sheriff's deputies who are Bomb Squad (http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/Sheriff/Special%20Units/Bomb_Squad.htm) , both EOD trained at Redstone. They are a component of the bomb squad for this region. I've only been on calls with them twice, once for a "suspicious package" in a hotel at a local Reservation Casino, and once where I got to watch them use the robot to disrupt a backpack someone left behind at the local airport. I don't usually go to the bomb squad callouts, but they always want a medic there, and if one of my paramedics goes they always call me since I have to sign off, and I go if I'm free. We don't get a lot of bombs here in this part of Minnesota though. The Army (or MN Guard, not sure which) contracts with the Sheriff's Department for ordnance disposal. About twice a year, we go down to Camp Ripley about 45 miles south of here for that along with Bloomington Bomb Squad out of Bloomington MN and blow up a bunch of stuff, ranging from fireworks to old AIM 9's, whatever they have. The Sheriff's Sergeant who was the commander of the TAC Team when it started years ago was ex-military EOD and he's the one that also started the bomb squad and made the connection with Camp Ripley, the contract being in exchange for free use of the MOUT facility and all the ranges, confidence course, rappel tower etc.

I don't know the details of the breaching equipment, but it appears to use orange det cord about the diameter of a pencil and getting the charge calibrated to the door in question seems to be a little problematic. We did breach a steel door with a hydraulic bomb once. Boy was that messy.

The Bomb Squad is scheduled to go back to Ripley in May. I'll make it a point to take a camera. It's a hoot, as you know.

http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/Sheriff/Special%20Units/bomb%20squad%20patch2jpg.jpg

Leroy
12-14-2005, 01:22 AM
He he, where can I buy some of this stuff.....for personal purposes....it sounds like fun!

If you have a stump in your yard do you just take care of it yourself?



These guys aren't TAC, but Sheriff's deputies who are Bomb Squad (http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/Sheriff/Special%20Units/Bomb_Squad.htm) , both EOD trained at Redstone. They are a component of the bomb squad for this region. I've only been on calls with them twice, once for a "suspicious package" in a hotel at a local Reservation Casino, and once where I got to watch them use the robot to disrupt a backpack someone left behind at the local airport. I don't usually go to the bomb squad callouts, but they always want a medic there, and if one of my paramedics goes they always call me since I have to sign off, and I go if I'm free. We don't get a lot of bombs here in this part of Minnesota though. The Army (or MN Guard, not sure which) contracts with the Sheriff's Department for ordnance disposal. About twice a year, we go down to Camp Ripley about 45 miles south of here for that along with Bloomington Bomb Squad out of Bloomington MN and blow up a bunch of stuff, ranging from fireworks to old AIM 9's, whatever they have. The Sheriff's Sergeant who was the commander of the TAC Team when it started years ago was ex-military EOD and he's the one that also started the bomb squad and made the connection with Camp Ripley, the contract being in exchange for free use of the MOUT facility and all the ranges, confidence course, rappel tower etc.

I don't know the details of the breaching equipment, but it appears to use orange det cord about the diameter of a pencil and getting the charge calibrated to the door in question seems to be a little problematic. We did breach a steel door with a hydraulic bomb once. Boy was that messy.

The Bomb Squad is scheduled to go back to Ripley in May. I'll make it a point to take a camera. It's a hoot, as you know.

http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/Sheriff/Special%20Units/bomb%20squad%20patch2jpg.jpg

BriEOD
12-14-2005, 07:48 AM
These guys aren't TAC, but Sheriff's deputies who are Bomb Squad (http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/Sheriff/Special%20Units/Bomb_Squad.htm) , both EOD trained at Redstone. They are a component of the bomb squad for this region. I've only been on calls with them twice, once for a "suspicious package" in a hotel at a local Reservation Casino, and once where I got to watch them use the robot to disrupt a backpack someone left behind at the local airport. I don't usually go to the bomb squad callouts, but they always want a medic there, and if one of my paramedics goes they always call me since I have to sign off, and I go if I'm free. We don't get a lot of bombs here in this part of Minnesota though. The Army (or MN Guard, not sure which) contracts with the Sheriff's Department for ordnance disposal. About twice a year, we go down to Camp Ripley about 45 miles south of here for that along with Bloomington Bomb Squad out of Bloomington MN and blow up a bunch of stuff, ranging from fireworks to old AIM 9's, whatever they have. The Sheriff's Sergeant who was the commander of the TAC Team when it started years ago was ex-military EOD and he's the one that also started the bomb squad and made the connection with Camp Ripley, the contract being in exchange for free use of the MOUT facility and all the ranges, confidence course, rappel tower etc.

I don't know the details of the breaching equipment, but it appears to use orange det cord about the diameter of a pencil and getting the charge calibrated to the door in question seems to be a little problematic. We did breach a steel door with a hydraulic bomb once. Boy was that messy.

The Bomb Squad is scheduled to go back to Ripley in May. I'll make it a point to take a camera. It's a hoot, as you know.

http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/Sheriff/Special%20Units/bomb%20squad%20patch2jpg.jpg

I stand corrected. That's great that your community has some trained personnel. I've heard horror stories of small counties or towns that have untrained personnel trying to do the work.

The military by law is required to handle any ordnance call. Actually if you think about it ordnance is government property so it makes sense. Heck, we even get calls for Civil War era cannon balls and Parrot rounds that they dig up during construction projects in historic Charleston--still government property and black poweder will still maintain it's chemical properties over all these years.

If it is orange that sounds like cordex (brand of det cord). The FLSC tends to be a bit more but extremely effective.

BriEOD
12-14-2005, 07:50 AM
He he, where can I buy some of this stuff.....for personal purposes....it sounds like fun!

If you have a stump in your yard do you just take care of it yourself?
As long as you take the test and get a commercial blasting licesence, knock yourself out. Make sure you adhere to all the laws and regulations or you will have an ATF explosives enforcement officer coming to visit you.

bigmac
12-14-2005, 08:15 AM
The military by law is required to handle any ordnance call. Actually if you think about it ordnance is government property so it makes sense.

I'll have to ask about the details of how that works, but there are never any military with us on those Camp Ripley excursions. It's not disarming unexploded ordnance, its destruction of old or obsolete ordnance. Usually involves a lot of C-4. In September, one of our big projects was destroying several hundred parachute flares and artillary simulators. (I say "our" , but my role in Bomb Squad activities is "stand over there, Doc, and don't touch anything...". They don't have to tell me twice).

Camp Ripley is a big artillary and armor training facility, so they do have a few unexploded shells around (there's always a big map in Range Control with the locations marked). We aren't involved in that - they apparently know every time a round doesn't go off. They go out and mark it and it becomes off limits. When they get a little batch of 'em, they call in their own people

BriEOD
12-14-2005, 08:50 AM
Hmmm...That's interesting. Maybe their is some formal agreement worked out that I don't know about. However, U.S.C (not sure the # off the top of my head) military ordance is the property of the Department of Defense and military EOD units have the sole responsibilty for destroying. One of the primary reasons is civilian agencies are not trained, nor equipped to handle military ordnance. The resason the military school is about a year and the civilian school is 3 months is because the GIs get trained on military ordnance (foreign and domestic) as well as IEDs. Conversely, the civilian school strictly teaches IEDs. I have actually experienced some huge "pissing" contests over this. Such as Base Commanders (Generals) calling Chief's of Police and ordering them to have their guys back off.

However, with that said I have also seen a few memorandum's of understanding between military and civilian agencies to defer "minor" situations to civilian agencies due to response time, manpower, etc.

Unless it is a declared emergency an unsafe to move/transport and item you will always dispose of explosives and ordnance on a demolition range which pretty much are located on DoD installations. The EPA's RCRA (Resource Contamination Recovery Act) forbids disposing of any material that could contaminate air, land, water without a permit, unless it is an emergency. Most ranges are permanently permitted areas. If you can move something it is not an emergency. The Act intially was instituted to enforce dumping, etc. But, as most laws do they become a slippery slope. Detonations release toxic gases and alot of ordnance is made up of lead and other contaminants. You get to know the EPA regulations and your local regulator pretty well. God help you if you don't follow the rules--big time fines.

bigmac
12-14-2005, 08:50 AM
I stand corrected. That's great that your community has some trained personnel. I've heard horror stories of small counties or towns that have untrained personnel trying to do the work.



No, these guys are pretty cool. They have all the toys - robots, xray equipment, those big heavy green suits, cool bomb squad truck.... They cover the entire northern half of Minnesota and apparently their big thing is pipe bombs...which usually turn out to be leftovers from somebody's plumbing project.

A couple of years ago, there was a suspicious package found at the Mall of America. They evacuated the whole facility (it's a big place!) Bloomington Bomb Squad was called and they used their robot to put it in that big kettle-on-a-trailer thing. It was a big deal. One of the news choppers was following the rig down the interstate taking video. They get a closeup of the kettle from the top, showing the package, when all of a sudden it flies out the top and lands on the highway, and run over by a couple of cars. It turned out to be nothing, of course, but it certainly gave our guys razzing points in the ongoing friendly rivalry between the two squads.

bigmac
12-14-2005, 09:07 AM
However, with that said I have also seen a few memorandum's of understanding between military and civilian agencies to defer "minor" situations to civilian agencies due to response time, manpower, etc.



I suspect that's the case here. The Bomb Squad doesn't actually physically handle the stuff - it's unloaded into discreet piles for them and they just blow it up.

Ric
12-14-2005, 11:52 AM
THREADJACK
I have a growing ziploc bag of old rounds at the house
rifle, pistol and shotgun
I'd never shoot them because they either appear bad or I know they've been wet at one time or another.
How do I properly dispose of them?.

bigmac
12-14-2005, 12:06 PM
THREADJACK
I have a growing ziploc bag of old rounds at the house
rifle, pistol and shotgun
I'd never shoot them because they either appear bad or I know they've been wet at one time or another.
How do I properly dispose of them?.

I would call your local police department or Sheriff's office, tell them you have a quantity of old, and potentially unstable ammunition. Most have provisions for that kind of stuff, or can at least advise you on what to do with it. Many local or county landfills have provisions for accepting hazardous household waste (HHW) but they can't accept ammunition.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-14-2005, 12:08 PM
THREADJACK
I have a growing ziploc bag of old rounds at the house
rifle, pistol and shotgun
I'd never shoot them because they either appear bad or I know they've been wet at one time or another.
How do I properly dispose of them?.
This might sound funny, but call your local police department, I believe they would take them off your hands and properly dispose of them. (I'd recommend calling them first)

Workin' 4 Toys
12-14-2005, 12:09 PM
I would call your local police department or Sheriff's office, tell them you have a quantity of old, and potentially unstable ammunition. Most have provisions for that kind of stuff, or can at least advise you on what to do with it. Many local or county landfills have provisions for accepting hazardous household waste (HHW) but they can't accept ammunition.
Opps. we were obviously typing at the same time....

BriEOD
12-14-2005, 12:11 PM
How to dispose of them or get rid of them.

The way they are disposed of is via fire or incinerator. I've done it before. We used some metal missile coffins (big metal tub) and put dunnage and diesel fuel all over it (in a big hole). Then we covered it with a bunch of chicken wire to attempt to prevent kick outs. We ignited it by using an electric blasting cap to intiate a nest of thermite grenades. We burned about 7,000 rounds of 5.56mm (actually they were British rounds). Granted we were in Kuwait when we did this. I have a photo of it somewhere. The EPA would have you by the balls for doing this in the US. But, that is the "by the book," safe way to destory unsafe ball ammo. Than you recycle the brass.

Their are incinerators in the US that collect the toxic fumes and lead. These are permitted disposal sites. I'm not sure where you would find one.

If I were you Ric I would call the local Police Department or a Gun Shop and see what they say.

bigmac
12-14-2005, 12:18 PM
The way they are disposed of is via fire or incinerator. I've done it before. We used some metal missile coffins (big metal tub) and put dunnage and diesel fuel all over it (in a big hole). Then we covered it with a bunch of chicken wire to attempt to prevent kick outs. We ignited it by using an electric blasting cap to intiate a nest of thermite grenades.

Where can Ric pick up some thermite grenades, then?

If he starts searching online for some, maybe he can get ATF to take his old ammunition off his hands when they come out to his house... :D

BriEOD
12-14-2005, 12:26 PM
Yeah, you can't exactly pick those babies up at Wal-Mart.

Funny story about Thermite/Smoke grendades. The fuzing system on the regular explosive/frag grenade has a short delay. Pull the pin and toss it. She won't go off in your hand. Smokes and Thermites fuzing doesn't have a delay - instantaneous. Well, you'll get gang bangers and other knuckle heads who find explosive/frag bodies without the fuze or explosives inside (souveneirs, etc). Also, they somehow get smoke/thermites from Army surplus stores etc. They will fill the "pineapple" grenade bodies with smokeless powder and than utilize the fuze off of a smoke/thermite as an initiator. As I said, those fuzes have no delay - oops! :eek: No one ever said criminals were smart. :D

Workin' 4 Toys
12-14-2005, 01:07 PM
If he starts searching online for some, maybe he can get ATF to take his old ammunition off his hands when they come out to his house... :D
The Funny part is, if he starts searching for it online, it will lead him back HERE now.....;)

bigmac
12-14-2005, 01:08 PM
Yeah, you can't exactly pick those babies up at Wal-Mart.

Funny story about Thermite/Smoke grendades. The fuzing system on the regular explosive/frag grenade has a short delay. Pull the pin and toss it. She won't go off in your hand. Smokes and Thermites fuzing doesn't have a delay - instantaneous. Well, you'll get gang bangers and other knuckle heads who find explosive/frag bodies without the fuze or explosives inside (souveneirs, etc). Also, they somehow get smoke/thermites from Army surplus stores etc. They will fill the "pineapple" grenade bodies with smokeless powder and than utilize the fuze off of a smoke/thermite as an initiator. As I said, those fuzes have no delay - oops! :eek: No one ever said criminals were smart. :D

Excellent safety tip....thanks... :)

I have a few smoke grenades and some artillary simulators in my equipment bag - I particlularly like the ones that whistle. Also some parachute flares - although I'm not sure what I'd do with those other than July 4th. The smoke grenades use the fuze you mention, the simulators have a fuze with delay, and some of them have a pull-cord fuse. All the cool guys have an extra pin secured prominently to their tac vest. We don't use those simulators with the spoons for flash-bangs because of the schrapnel from the fuze. The parachute flares seem like kind of a dicey deal to me - you put the cap on the other end and whack it with your palm - you have to really want to light things up to fire one of those IMHO.

Ric
12-14-2005, 01:37 PM
The Funny part is, if he starts searching for it online, it will lead him back HERE now.....;)
Isn't that the truth!

Thanks fellas

John Doe will be making a call to the local poeleece

Workin' 4 Toys
12-17-2005, 12:00 AM
...................;)

bigmac
12-17-2005, 12:05 AM
Any chance I can get an invite to Mac's place snowmobiling in the winter and Brieod's place skiing in the summer so I can say that's what I am doing, but we could really be "testing" said devices?..;)


Attn: Mr. Gov. official watching this site, this is a joke.....really....


Given today's news (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/16/bush.nsa/index.html) , you might have cause for concern. The TMC web pages are already cached, otherwise I thought it might be smart for me go back and expunge any reference I made to thermite grenades.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-17-2005, 12:09 AM
On a lighter note........whoops.....;)