PDA

View Full Version : Nicer car for commute, less than......$


Pages : [1] 2

Workin' 4 Toys
11-26-2005, 11:36 PM
2005 or '06
Something a little larger, and maybe AWD.
NO SUV's
Keep it under $30,000.
Something with a little more impact protection, but still get about or close to 30MPG HWY.

parks_jr_55
11-27-2005, 12:00 AM
06 Mazda6 AWD Turbo....under 30,000 turbo and good gas mileage.

http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.ncop?kbb.WI;740540;WI141&54494&&;;nc;sed&1&06MAG1_6S;051200

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 12:01 AM
06 Mazda6 AWD Turbo....under 30,000 turbo and good gas mileage.

http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/kw.kc.ncop?kbb.WI;740540;WI141&54494&&;;nc;sed&1&06MAG1_6S;051200
Not that it has much to do with it, where are Mazdas made?

parks_jr_55
11-27-2005, 12:07 AM
From what I could find it looks like Hiroshima, Japan.

I just looked at Mazda and knew the 6 was bigger and found the AWD.
I have a Mazda3 and like it a lot.

Consumer Reports have rated the 6 pretty high.

JDK
11-27-2005, 12:50 AM
Two words .......Camry and Accord.
Very safe, very good mileage and probably the lowest deprecion you will find.
No AWD, but with snowies at all 4 corners of either of these cars, you'll be very surprised how these cars perform.
Maybe you can find an almost new Avalon in your price range too.......that is a fabulous car for the money.

Blair
11-27-2005, 01:02 AM
mazda is made by ford

if you start looking at their cars you can even see they use some of the same body panels

ford explorer / mazda b series
mazda 3 / ford focus


look into something like a Chevy malibu or impalla :twocents:

ski_king
11-27-2005, 01:18 AM
The Ford 500 or Mercury Montego. Both using Volvo technology. I believe with AWD the milage is just under 30 though. I am not sure about the variable ratio transmission though.
Don't forget to check out one of the lower end Volvo or even the X Series Jag, just over the 30K for bottom. A friend has one and it is quite nice.

Also yOu cant beat a Suburu Legacy.

Lots of choices out there for you.

SkySkiSpokane
11-27-2005, 02:52 AM
We are buying a Pontiac G6. Built on the Saab frame. It handles like a dream and gets 32 mpg. 22,500 loaded on GM's red tag event. We love it.

dog paw
11-27-2005, 09:34 AM
G6 is very nice. You might not get 35mpg probably closer to 30. The 06's have a 4cyl available and I "think" the 5.3 small block might be a option also I am running a Vibe GT and 35mpg is easy! I got a new 04 as a commuter and have close to 50k on it now with no problems. I get the "its a Matrix" bla bla bla until you show em the big Yamaha emblem on the front of the engine :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-27-2005, 10:14 AM
If you want good value for your dollar and are considering domestics, I would seriously consider buying a "program" car. Now of course the term "program car" is loosely used but what I mean is a Franchised dealer selling a prgram car they buy from a factory franchised auction. That means not just any car dealer can get them. SO all the "Herb Tarleck looking used car dealers wearing polyester leisure suits with white belts and shoes, flowered shirts unbuttoned with too many gold chains" cant sell them. You must be a Franshised dealer to get them such as GM, Ford, Or Chrysler. The advantage to this is that you are getting better quality cars. Your not buying a "pig in a poke". Sure, its possible you can get a bad one, but in my 10 years of being in the car biz, I have only seen a few, and they still have full factory warranty. The first big hit of depreciation has already been taken. Sure they have miles on them, and MOST of them have been rental cars, but if you shop wisely you can get a vehicle that you can be very happy with and will serve you well. I dont know about the imports here, just domestics. But I think you can save alot of cash and have a great car for the money. New vehicles are the WORST. Your overpaying for it no matter how good the rebates are. and once you put your name on the title, its worth about 60% of what you paid for it because of all the rental cars on the market (remember Supply and Demand from Highschool Econ class)The fact of the matter is, automobiles are a terrible investment, period. All they do is depreciate. If you can find an 2005 with 10 to 15K for miles, it usually shaves about 30 to 40% off the original new price of the car.

My advice is look into a 2005 Program car. :twocents:

Hope this helps :)

UMP

BrianM
11-27-2005, 10:44 AM
Subaru Legacy or Outback. 5 star crash rating all around with standard side and curtain airbags. Available 4 cyl Turbo or 6 cyl. Best AWD system around and extremely reliable. Easy under 30k. I think they are the 'sleepers' in this category and really deserve a look.

Legacy http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?model=LEGACY

Outback http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?model=OUTBACK

I have an '05 2.5i Limited Outback and absolutely love the car. Features, price, saftey and reliability are awsome. Have put over 30k miles on it in just over a year. My mom has a '98 with right at 100k miles and has done nothing but standard maintenance.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 10:47 AM
How about Audi A4, anyone? I like the styling of them, of course I am slightly over budget. but AWD, and I think I am stuck on AWD full or part.

All good tips so far. Keep them coming. I am seriously in the market.

Late last night I did a quick trip down the street. Looked in the windows at Audi, Honda, & Ford.
But there are SOOOOOO many dealers here it is hard to NOT spend days searching. And I am not a fan of the "book" reports. I want real world peoples feedback, that's why I turn to you fine folks.
There has to be 50 to 60 different dealers with 3 miles of me. You name it, I probably have it, thats what makes this hard.

I am a huge domestic fan when it comes to trucks and SUV's. But I am in a different catagory here. Cars.
Funny thing. The Honda window sticker showed 70% of the car was domestic including the engine!!!, Japanese parts 15% including the transmission. I never knew that....

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 10:51 AM
Subaru Legacy or Outback. 5 star crash rating all around with standard side and curtain airbags. Available 4 cyl Turbo or 6 cyl. Best AWD system around and extremely reliable. Easy under 30k. I think they are the 'sleepers' in this category and really deserve a look.

Legacy http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?model=LEGACY

Outback http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?model=OUTBACK

I have an '05 2.5i Limited Outback and absolutely love the car. Features, price, saftey and reliability are awsome. Have put over 30k miles on it in just over a year. My mom has a '98 with right at 100k miles and has done nothing but standard maintenance.

Brian, I am not sure if this was bad info I received or not. But doesn't Subaru require some unusual maintenance. Like valve service or something of that sort that is very expensive. I used to live next to a Subaru household, he was the one that steered me away by telling me that. I suppose it could be the dealer taking him to the cleaners.

One of my realatives has a WRX STI. Loves it, but hardly ever drives it. Has raced it a few times 100% stock and did well. BUt not my slice of cheese.
I am looking for something that is a little fun too, So I am going to get a manual trans.

BrianM
11-27-2005, 10:54 AM
How about Audi A4, anyone? I like the styling of them, of course I am slightly over budget. but AWD, and I think I am stuck on AWD full or part.


I looked at the A4 wagons before I bought the Subaru. Nice car but they were more money for less features and the kicker is maintenance and reliability. Everything that I read about Audi says that if you plan to keep it past the warranty be prepared for large service bills even for 'regular' maintenance. Overall reliability also seems to be sub par especially for the price.

BrianM
11-27-2005, 10:59 AM
Brian, I am not sure if this was bad info I received or not. But doesn't Subaru require some unusual maintenance. Like valve service or something of that sort that is very expensive. I used to live next to a Subaru household, he was the one that steered me away by telling me that. I suppose it could be the dealer taking him to the cleaners.

One of my realatives has a WRX STI. Loves it, but hardly ever drives it. Has raced it a few times 100% stock and did well. BUt not my slice of cheese.
I am looking for something that is a little fun too, So I am going to get a manual trans.

No unusual service is called for in the manual on my 4cyl non-turbo. Turbos may be a different story. Timing belts every 105k is about the only thing that should be expensive but that is par for the course on any vehicle with a timing belt and in fact seems like a little longer interval than most.

If you want fun go drive a Legacy GT or Outback XT (250 hp Turbo 4cyl) with a manual on a rainy day. Very fast and fun and handle like they are on rails even in the wet.

Leroy
11-27-2005, 11:26 AM
Go with the number 1 automobile!

Honda Accord, new, $20k. Sorry, UMP, any car that depreciates 30-40% indicates something wrong, look at the depreciation schedule on Honda's.

stevo137
11-27-2005, 12:04 PM
I have a had a 2005 Dodge Magnum since last December and it has been a great car. It is standard rear wheel drive but also available in all wheel drive. I am very impressed with how it handles in the snow and bad weather.
The car has some very advanced safety features and handles great.
Mine has traction control, stability control, and brake assist.
It is a company car and they only offered the 2.7 when I ordered mine
but I will go with the 3.5 next time.
There is a Hemi option but it adds about 5k, not worth it IMO.
The 3.5 has plenty of power and is more fuel efficient.
I just hit 28,000 miles and no problems at all. We turn them when they hit 50,000 and at this point, I will definitely be ordering another one next year. You can get the rear wheel drive very nicely equipped for mid 20's and the AWD is just under 30k.
W4T's, it looks like the Magnum meets your purchasing criteria, has very high crash test and safety ratings, and most people seem to really like the way it looks. Check one out, you might be surprised...
http://www.dodge.com/magnum/index.html

Eagle
11-27-2005, 12:06 PM
I'm a big fan of Subaru Outbacks. Lots of room, reliable, hold their value, drive nice.

The Audi A4 is a great driving (and looking car) but it's pretty small and your original post asked from something a little larger. Audi reliability is not so great and very expensive to fix. I'd probably sell once out of warranty.

Accords are made in the USA. So are Camry's. The engines come from Japan. Where what is made is a whole separate thread. (Mercedes Benz's and BMW's made in USA, Porsches made in Finland, VW's made in Slovakia, Audis made in Hungary, Fords made in Mexico, etc etc)

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-27-2005, 12:16 PM
Go with the number 1 automobile!

Honda Accord, new, $20k. Sorry, UMP, any car that depreciates 30-40% indicates something wrong, look at the depreciation schedule on Honda's.

First off, I wasnt pushing domestics or dissing imports. I was just offering advice in case he was considering domestics.

Second, It doesnt mean there is anything wrong with the cars, it just simple economics. Supply and Demand dictates the prices of everything. There are just so many of them on the market, the price goes down. Imports retain value because there arent as many on the market. I am not going to argue that they arent great cars because imports are Terrific cars, they simply make great cars. Their quality is outstanding. But that doesnt mean that "something is wrong" with domestics just because the prices drop dramatically because of the market being flooded with them. YOu can get alot for the money buying a domestic car used like that and still get a good car.

SO its not an accurate statement to say there is something wrong with the cars because they depreciate. there are some very good domestic cars on the market that can be bought for great prices as program cars. Its simple economics. Most things depreciate as soon as you buy them. Example: How much are used toasters worth? NOt much. Well, rental companies use way more domestic cars than imports so when they are done with them and they sell them it affects the prices of the used car market dramatically.

parks_jr_55
11-27-2005, 12:34 PM
My dad used to have an Audi A6 Quattro (AWD) and he would commute 110 miles every day in the Wisconsin snow and it did great. He never had a problem with sliding or anything. The only thing is, Audi's can be expensive to fix.

You might also want to look at the Camry. I don't think it comes in AWD though.

OhioProstar
11-27-2005, 01:04 PM
Last year my wife and I looked at a dozen or more cars in that range...what we found was the US cars depriciate very fast right off the lot. Even after rebates and employee discounts. We then looked at Audi's, BMWs, and Acura's. We found that the Acura or BMW would hold their value much better than other car's in the same class. The Acura TSX came in at $27k with all options but Navigation. It has held its value very well. Check it out.

6ballsisall
11-27-2005, 01:39 PM
How about Audi A4, anyone? I like the styling of them, of course I am slightly over budget. but AWD, and I think I am stuck on AWD full or part.

All good tips so far. Keep them coming. I am seriously in the market.

Late last night I did a quick trip down the street. Looked in the windows at Audi, Honda, & Ford.
But there are SOOOOOO many dealers here it is hard to NOT spend days searching. And I am not a fan of the "book" reports. I want real world peoples feedback, that's why I turn to you fine folks.
There has to be 50 to 60 different dealers with 3 miles of me. You name it, I probably have it, thats what makes this hard.

I am a huge domestic fan when it comes to trucks and SUV's. But I am in a different catagory here. Cars.
Funny thing. The Honda window sticker showed 70% of the car was domestic including the engine!!!, Japanese parts 15% including the transmission. I never knew that....


While it's going to be just over 30k the A4 would be at the top of my list. Incredible cars, superior performance and their Quattro system is awesome. I haven't driven the new 4 cylinder turbo (2 liter I believe) but have spent a lot of time in a 1.8l turbo and those cars really scoot. However, you wont get 30 mpg in one of these.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 02:41 PM
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/d/img/summary/model.gif -2006 DODGE MAGNUM SXT AWD G Pkg. $28,900.00 modify (javascript:doAction2('jumpToState', 'ProductSelector'))
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/d/img/summary/colors.gif -Primary: Silver Steel Metallic Clear Coat Included-Interior: Dark/Light Slate Gray Included modify (javascript:doAction2('jumpToState','Config_Color' )) tablesToStripe[tablesToStripe.length] = 'Color_tab';Stevo:
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/d/img/summary/power.gif -3.5-Liter High-Output 24-Valve V6 MPI Engine Included-3.07 Axle Ratio Included-5-Speed Automatic W5A580 Transmission Included modify (javascript:doAction2('jumpToState','Config_Power' )) tablesToStripe[tablesToStripe.length] = 'Power_tab';
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/d/img/summary/options.gif -Cloth Low-Back Bucket Seats Included-P225/60R18 BSW Touring Tires Included-18" x 7.5" Aluminum Wheels Included-4 Speakers Included-AM/FM/CD w/Changer Controls and Aux Input Jack Included-8-Way Power Driver's Seat Included-Air Conditioning Included-Electronic Stability Program Included-Cargo Compartment Cover Included modify (javascript:doAction2('jumpToState','Config_Option s')) tablesToStripe[tablesToStripe.length] = 'Options_tab';tablesToStripe[tablesToStripe.length] = 'Accessories_tab';

MSRP: $29.575


No engine or tranny options in the AWD. Does it get 30mpg? Or about?

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 02:51 PM
Model and Powertrain: A4 2.0 T 6-speed manual quattro®Base MSRP: $29,740http://www.audiusa.com/common/images/transparent_1X1.gifhttp://www.audiusa.com/common/images/transparent_1X1.gifPrice as configured: $31,210
Anti-lock brake system with vacuum power assist, Electronic Brake-pressure Distribution (EBD) and hydraulic Brake Assist and disk wiping feature
200 hp with 6-speed manual transmission and quattro® all-wheel drive
Turbocharged DOHC inline 2.0 liter 4-cylinder with FSI® Direct Injection, variable valve timing and intake manifold
Displacement: 2.0 liters (121.06 cu. in.)
Bore: 3.25 in.
stroke: 3.65 in.
Compression ratio: 10.5:1
Horsepower: 200 hp @ 5,100-6,000 rpm
Torque: 207 lb-ft @ 1800-5000 rpm
0-60 mph in seconds: 7.1 (FrontTrak manual models), 7.3 (multitronic CVT with FrontTrak and 6-speed manual with quattro), 7.5 (6-speed Tiptronic with quattro)
Top track speed: 130 mph*
EPA fuel economy estimates (city/highway)*:
multitronic: 24/32
manual, FrontTrak: 23/34
manual, quattro: 22/31
Tiptronic: 22/30
Sideguard™ head protection airbags for front and rear occupants*
Driver and front passenger dual-stage and dual-threshold airbag supplemental restraints with occupant sensors*
16-inch 5-spoke grooved design cast alloy wheels with 215/55 all-season tires
Backlit instrument cluster with automatic brightness control including tachometer, electronic speedometer, odometer, voltmeter, digital clock with date, service interval indicator; fuel and coolant temperature gauges
4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first, no-charge scheduled maintenance
4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first, new vehicle limited warranty
Heated windshield washer nozzles

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 02:53 PM
For the record on the depreciation value. I do not care.

So please do not figure that into your recommendations.

Import or domestic. At this point I do not care about that either.(although I hate to say that)

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 03:07 PM
The Audi A4 is a great driving (and looking car) but it's pretty small and your original post asked from something a little larger.

Compared to an old corolla?

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 03:08 PM
Last year my wife and I looked at a dozen or more cars in that range...what we found was the US cars depriciate very fast right off the lot. Even after rebates and employee discounts. We then looked at Audi's, BMWs, and Acura's. We found that the Acura or BMW would hold their value much better than other car's in the same class. The Acura TSX came in at $27k with all options but Navigation. It has held its value very well. Check it out.
Acura's website is terrible for checking out prices.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 03:22 PM
Subaru:

LEGACY (http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?year=2006&model=LEGACY&trim=25_GT_LIMITED_SEDAN) - 2.5 GT LIMITED SEDAN (http://www.subaru.com/shop/overview.jsp?year=2006&model=LEGACY&trim=25_GT_LIMITED_SEDAN)


Total$29,420
http://www.subaru.com/media/image/i.gifhttp://www.subaru.com/media/image/i.gif
(http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?year=2006&model=LEGACY&trim=25_GT_LIMITED_SEDAN)

stevo137
11-27-2005, 03:28 PM
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/d/img/summary/model.gif -2006 DODGE MAGNUM SXT AWD G Pkg. $28,900.00 modify (javascript:doAction2('jumpToState', 'ProductSelector'))
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/d/img/summary/colors.gif -Primary: Silver Steel Metallic Clear Coat Included-Interior: Dark/Light Slate Gray Included modify (javascript:doAction2('jumpToState','Config_Color' )) tablesToStripe[tablesToStripe.length] = 'Color_tab';Stevo:
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/d/img/summary/power.gif -3.5-Liter High-Output 24-Valve V6 MPI Engine Included-3.07 Axle Ratio Included-5-Speed Automatic W5A580 Transmission Included modify (javascript:doAction2('jumpToState','Config_Power' )) tablesToStripe[tablesToStripe.length] = 'Power_tab';
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/d/img/summary/options.gif -Cloth Low-Back Bucket Seats Included-P225/60R18 BSW Touring Tires Included-18" x 7.5" Aluminum Wheels Included-4 Speakers Included-AM/FM/CD w/Changer Controls and Aux Input Jack Included-8-Way Power Driver's Seat Included-Air Conditioning Included-Electronic Stability Program Included-Cargo Compartment Cover Included modify (javascript:doAction2('jumpToState','Config_Option s')) tablesToStripe[tablesToStripe.length] = 'Options_tab';tablesToStripe[tablesToStripe.length] = 'Accessories_tab';

MSRP: $29.575


No engine or tranny options in the AWD. Does it get 30mpg? Or about?
Not sure about
I also have the bright silver with dk/md slate gray interior and like the looks.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 03:28 PM
Go with the number 1 automobile!

Honda Accord, new, $20k. Sorry, UMP, any car that depreciates 30-40% indicates something wrong, look at the depreciation schedule on Honda's.
I thought you were a Lexus fan?

JDK
11-27-2005, 03:29 PM
Imports retain value because there arent as many on the market.

Sorry UPM, I've got to disagree with you on this one. Taurus, Camry and Accord have all been the #1 selling car in the US at one time or another.....yet the two Japanese cars' depreciation is not in the same ballpark as the Taurus.
(and I'm not bashing Tauruses....I've purchased 2 brand new ones because they are good cars).

Leroy
11-27-2005, 03:31 PM
WFT: Did you consider the Volvo S40 or S60? http://www.volvocars.us/Generally the champions of safety and good mileage.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 03:34 PM
<LI>Volvo S40 T5 AWD
<LI>$28,390
Transversely Mounted, 2.5-Liter, 5-Cylinder, Double Overhead Cam, Twin-Scroll Turbocharger with Intercooler and Continuously Variable Valve Timing (CVVT)
218 hp
6-Speed Manual Transmission
Electronically Controlled All-Wheel Drive
Driver and Front Passenger Supplemental Restraint System - Dual-Threshold Air Bags
Side Impact Air Bags for Driver and Front Passenger
Inflatable Side Curtains (IC)
Whiplash Protection Seating System (WHIPS)
Intelligent Driver Information System (IDIS)
Security System
Safe Approach and Home Safe Lighting
Electronic Key Integrated Remote Control with Central Power Door Locks
Ultra-Slim Center Control Panel
Personal Settings for Locking, Audio and Climate Control
Performance Audio System with Single In-Dash CD
Audio Controls in Steering Wheel
16" Alloy Wheels

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 03:35 PM
WFT: Did you consider the Volvo S40 or S60? http://www.volvocars.us/Generally the champions of safety and good mileage.
5 Cylinder. AUGH!!!
Anyway, I did not even think of them until you just mentioned it.

Leroy
11-27-2005, 03:47 PM
218HP and 6 speed! 16 inch wheels will ride great.


Couple of guys at work have Volvo's and love them. I struggle to get over the old box image of the 70's-80's, but these look pretty good and feature list looks decent.

rodltg2
11-27-2005, 04:08 PM
i am looking at maybe considering the idea of thinking about contemplating the possibilty of tossing around the thought of adding another vehicle to my fleet. has anyone driven or heard anything about the nissan 350Z?

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 04:08 PM
2006 Ford 500 SEL AWD $26,780 Basic

Website was not user friendly for posting options and acce.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 04:09 PM
i am looking at maybe considering the idea of thinking about contemplating the possibilty of tossing around the thought of adding another vehicle to my fleet. has anyone driven or heard anything about the nissan 350Z?
D4MN thats alot of thinking. 350Z, is that 4 wheel drive?

rodltg2
11-27-2005, 04:10 PM
i dont thnink so, but im not sure.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 04:21 PM
2006 Jeep COMMANDER 4X4 S Pkg. $29,290.00
3.7 liter V6

MSRP: $30,135

Leroy
11-27-2005, 04:25 PM
Friend of my 17 yr old has one and likes it!



i am looking at maybe considering the idea of thinking about contemplating the possibilty of tossing around the thought of adding another vehicle to my fleet. has anyone driven or heard anything about the nissan 350Z?

parks_jr_55
11-27-2005, 04:47 PM
.................................

Leroy
11-27-2005, 05:12 PM
Yes Parks and my son really wants the ES330, I tell him great, finish HS, college and he will have a job that can easily buy a 330. Just a little over your range for a new one. 32k base. That IS250 looks very nice!

http://www.lexus.com/lexusConfigApp/pub/setStartOptions.do;JSESSIONID_LEXUSCFG=DKnGGpWB1Qs k23gnpm8Rr5Yvj4SzfTwykvhPzGFZCsWlrD3CnMrg!62133225 6

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 05:14 PM
I am not sure at all what it is about the Lexus brand. I would never be able to get one. It seems so "feminine". I know that is going to offend some, and I am sorry, but there is something about the brand/or name. And the fact that almost everyone I see around here is driven by a woman. Including two relatives of mine. Sorry, there was no intention of offending anyone. Just the reasoning behind my madness why I would not for myself.
Perhaps when they finally open this state of the art dealer here in '06 they are building, I may one day actually go in.

André
11-27-2005, 05:49 PM
Friend of my 17 yr old has one and likes it!
17 years old and a Nissan 350Z? :eek:
Must be doing overtime at the Mcdonalds...

stevo137
11-27-2005, 06:16 PM
Edited to consumer guide...
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/New/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38055/Act/Roadtest/
It seems as though the people that have the Hemi really love it and you can get a 3800 lb tow package.
FYI, this car was also has the Mercedes 5 link suspension and handles the heavy weight of the car very well...

LakePirate
11-27-2005, 06:35 PM
Could it be because "up next on the main stage is Lexus"?

I question the safety of the Camrys and accords. I hit a camry back in the spring, lady driver turned left from the far right lane, right in front of me. Evasive manuver led to a glancing blow to the Avalanche. I had some quarter panel damage but that was it. Her Camry was trashed. Had to get towed and will probably be totaled. I know how hard the contact was and the resulting damage was way more than I expected.

Also have family friends that were in an Accord that got T-Boned. Don't know the specifics as far as speed at impact. However, the side doors gave and the 6'4" 300 pound guy in the back shattered his humerus.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 06:35 PM
Here are some consumer reviews of the Magnum.
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/dodge_magnum_2005/3893/model_user_reviews.html
It seems as though the people that have the Hemi really love it and you can get a 3800 lb tow package. (It looks like they are still getting about 23 mpg highway with the Hemi and it is bad*ss)!
I'm sure that you would be out of your $ and mileage range with the Hemi though.
FYI, this car was also has the Mercedes 5 link suspension and handles the heavy weight of the car very well...
Stevo, I have two tow rigs already. This car is in addition to my two fuel pigs. It looks like a nice car. But the fuel mileage is what I am after. Right now I have the corolla, the mileage has to be the same or better. I get about 28-30mpg. Although I would like the gas tank of the new car to be about 100 gallons so I only have to fill up once a month. But, hey, beggers can't be choosers, right.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 06:39 PM
Could it be because "up next on the main stage is Lexus"?

I question the safety of the Camrys and accords. I hit a camry back in the spring, lady driver turned left from the far right lane, right in front of me. Evasive manuver led to a glancing blow to the Avalanche. I had some quarter panel damage but that was it. Her Camry was trashed. Had to get towed and will probably be totaled. I know how hard the contact was and the resulting damage was way more than I expected.

Also have family friends that were in an Accord that got T-Boned. Don't know the specifics as far as speed at impact. However, the side doors gave and the 6'4" 300 pound guy in the back shattered his humerus.
Or is it the "show" girl at work with that name. It is a nickname as I understood it, but it adds to the misrepresentation when they do that. And it isn't the first time.
I agree with the side impact, but what car can take a hit in the side.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 06:41 PM
Am I falling for a sales gimmick, or does Audi include all maintenance items for 4 years? Included with the price, or is this a catch?

stevo137
11-27-2005, 07:00 PM
W4T's, I can understand that you want the mileage but I'll tell you, the way people drive in the Chicago area is crazy. They are the most rude, selfish, and dangerous drivers that I have ever experienced anywhere and I live on the road.
There is no way that I would drive a small car just to save a few mpg if at all possible... :twocents:

Leroy
11-27-2005, 07:17 PM
Pop's is a surgeon.

17 years old and a Nissan 350Z? :eek:
Must be doing overtime at the Mcdonalds...

BrianM
11-27-2005, 07:34 PM
Am I falling for a sales gimmick, or does Audi include all maintenance items for 4 years? Included with the price, or is this a catch?

The gimmick with all of the brands out there that include four years of maintenance is this. It only amounts to a few oil changes and an air filter. All cars now days require basicly no maintenance except for fluid changes for the first 50k or more. Plus the intervals that they change the oil are probably less than you would want 7,500 to 10k miles. So 4 years 60k miles worth of service is going to be 8 oil changes and 2 air filters. Brakes and other 'wear' items are not covered. Gimmick

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 08:58 PM
W4T's, I can understand that you want the mileage but I'll tell you, the way people drive in the Chicago area is crazy. They are the most rude, selfish, and dangerous drivers that I have ever experienced anywhere and I live on the road.
There is no way that I would drive a small car just to save a few mpg if at all possible... :twocents:
Would you classify an Audi A4 as a small car?
I would say its much "bigger" than a corolla.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 09:00 PM
The gimmick with all of the brands out there that include four years of maintenance is this. It only amounts to a few oil changes and an air filter. All cars now days require basicly no maintenance except for fluid changes for the first 50k or more. Plus the intervals that they change the oil are probably less than you would want 7,500 to 10k miles. So 4 years 60k miles worth of service is going to be 8 oil changes and 2 air filters. Brakes and other 'wear' items are not covered. Gimmick
I guess I never really added it up. I am going to stop in there tomorrow and talk to them about that and have them lay it out on the table. We'll see if they can curb me into that gimmick.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-27-2005, 09:06 PM
So far,
I am going to look at them as follows In order of dealer stops not by preference....

Audi A4
Dodge Magnum
Volvo S40
Ford 500
Subaru Legacy

Did I forget any?

I figure I'll be able to, in reality stop in and get $ and test drive each 2 or 3 per day.

I want safe, fun to drive, and good on fuel factored in. Not to mention room for "stuff" and must have 4 doors and seating for 4.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-27-2005, 11:14 PM
Sorry UPM, I've got to disagree with you on this one. Taurus, Camry and Accord have all been the #1 selling car in the US at one time or another.....yet the two Japanese cars' depreciation is not in the same ballpark as the Taurus.
(and I'm not bashing Tauruses....I've purchased 2 brand new ones because they are good cars).


OK, you guys are missing my point here. I am not arguing that imports arent good selling cars. I completely understand that the Imports have been best selling cars in the US. think overall here people. WHat influences the program car market? the cars that are actually for sale. OK....now, Most imports are sold to CUSTOMERS, not rental companies. Sure, rental companies rent imports too, but not nearly the amount that they do of domestics. so think of ALL the domestic lines that they buy, all of GM lines, Ford, Dodge, etc..... lots of different cars. See the point is Supply and demand of actual cars on the market. There are more late model domestics on the market than imports because rental companies utilize domestics more, thus it drives the prices on them down. this coupled with the fact that imports are terrific built vehicles and have excellent reliability track records drives the values down on domestics.

I was just offering some "nice guy" advice about saving a dollar in the car market. I thought if he was considering a vehicle purchase, I could offer another way to look at it. I am not trying to push him into domestics. He seemed open to ideas, I was just trying to give him an idea to consider.

:o

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 08:23 AM
OK, you guys are missing my point here. I am not arguing that imports arent good selling cars. I completely understand that the Imports have been best selling cars in the US. think overall here people. WHat influences the program car market? the cars that are actually for sale. OK....now, Most imports are sold to CUSTOMERS, not rental companies. Sure, rental companies rent imports too, but not nearly the amount that they do of domestics. so think of ALL the domestic lines that they buy, all of GM lines, Ford, Dodge, etc..... lots of different cars. See the point is Supply and demand of actual cars on the market. There are more late model domestics on the market than imports because rental companies utilize domestics more, thus it drives the prices on them down. this coupled with the fact that imports are terrific built vehicles and have excellent reliability track records drives the values down on domestics.

I was just offering some "nice guy" advice about saving a dollar in the car market. I thought if he was considering a vehicle purchase, I could offer another way to look at it. I am not trying to push him into domestics. He seemed open to ideas, I was just trying to give him an idea to consider.

:o

I did not miss the point. I got it. Feel free to offer any and all advice. I am open minded, unless of course I have my mind set on something:D then I tend to stick with it.
You are talking to one individual that is vey frustrated that I can not find what I am looking for in a 100% built USA automobile. They just don't exist, and the one that is owned by a US co. I am at least going to look at, but that constant variable transmission has me doubting a seriuos look.

I appreciate the advice, I really do. Even if you do not think it is exactly what I am looking for.

I do not consider myself politically correct, and if you told me I bought a complete piece of junk after the fact, I'd say thank you, I'll let you know what I think after a few miles...

Thanks again.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 08:30 AM
All AWD=
Audi A4 Quattro- Manual - 2.0L- 22/31
Dodge Magnum- Automatic- 3.5L- 17/24
Volvo S40- Manual- 2.5L- 20/29
Ford 500- Autovariable- 3.0- 19/26
Subaru Legacy- Manual- 2.5L- 22/29

stevo137
11-28-2005, 08:50 AM
Would you classify an Audi A4 as a small car?
I would say its much "bigger" than a corolla.
For me it would be too small. I'm guessing it's about the size of the Acura TL? If so, I had a 2000 TL and it was a too small for my needs. (It also did not hold it's value very well at all). I liked my 95 Legend much better than the TL. Keep in mind that I also use my car as our primary family car and my needs appear different than yours. Again, I want the biggest, safest car that is available to me especially since I drive in the Chicago madness almost every day and do not care if I don't get the best mileage.
I just wanted to at least make a suggestion based on personal experience with my car.
Keep us apprised on how your test drives go and feel free to PM me if you have questions regarding the Magnum.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 09:36 AM
This car will be used to drive myself to and from work. About 100 miles a day, and the running around that goes along with it.
If it doesn't get the 30mpg or close, I may just as well stick with the corolla I have now, but I choose not to. It will be sold as soon as I make up my mind.:)
On occasion, it may be used to run to the lake if and when I get the shorestation next season, and then I won't need to drive the truck back and forth with the boat attached.
But by then, I may get that Quad I want and get to tow that back and forth.
I just want a 4 door for no other reason than the JUST IN CASE I want to drive it leisure.
For leisure activities, I have two "gas hogs". An '04 Yukon, and a '02 F250 both have more than enough room for my family and the stuff and anything and everything I want to tow.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-28-2005, 10:48 AM
I did not miss the point. I got it. Feel free to offer any and all advice. I am open minded, unless of course I have my mind set on something:D then I tend to stick with it.
You are talking to one individual that is vey frustrated that I can not find what I am looking for in a 100% built USA automobile. They just don't exist, and the one that is owned by a US co. I am at least going to look at, but that constant variable transmission has me doubting a seriuos look.

I appreciate the advice, I really do. Even if you do not think it is exactly what I am looking for.

I do not consider myself politically correct, and if you told me I bought a complete piece of junk after the fact, I'd say thank you, I'll let you know what I think after a few miles...

Thanks again.

Toys,

ITs all good man! :) I was referring to someone else not getting my point. I am cool with it. I just thought those guys missed the point I was trying to make. I admit I was defending domestics a bit but not pushing them :o Anyway, I didnt mean to stir things, just trying to help.

Its all good :)

UMP

Leroy
11-28-2005, 11:39 AM
I think I get it UMP, I'm also a heavy user of those program cars in their first miles! It's not import/domestic, 3 of 4 of my imports were made in the USA! I'm just compulsive about having vehicles that give me the best chance of having no problems. Consumer Reports rankings tell me largely what to buy.


Program cars I kinda like, are the Pontiac G6 (but new) and the Malibu...car (can I say that on here?) and the Cobalt. The cars being discussed are in a different league than these though. I don't rent many 30k cars!

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 11:55 AM
the Pontiac G6, the Malibu...car and the Cobalt.

None of which are AWD. Sorry to say.

east tx skier
11-28-2005, 12:09 PM
Two words .......Camry and Accord.
Very safe, very good mileage and probably the lowest deprecion you will find.
No AWD, but with snowies at all 4 corners of either of these cars, you'll be very surprised how these cars perform.
Maybe you can find an almost new Avalon in your price range too.......that is a fabulous car for the money.

What he said. I'm on my second accord (purchased it with 110K miles on it with no worries as to it getting another 100K minimum).

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 12:13 PM
What he said. I'm on my second accord (purchased it with 110K miles on it with no worries as to it getting another 100K minimum).
I have an "Accord", although its got Toyota tags on it that say corolla. 75K. No problems, I just don't want it.
I want AWD.

BrianM
11-28-2005, 12:26 PM
None of which are AWD. Sorry to say.

I want AWD.

After owning the Subaru I will never own another car without AWD. It doesn't snow around here but it rains a lot and the surefootedness of the AWD is amazing. I have never had the weels slip on this car whether it be from a stand still or going around a wet corner a little fast. I am sold on the safety of AWD.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 01:25 PM
Infinity is another I may look into if the rest of my list fails to meet my expectations.

rodltg2
11-28-2005, 01:36 PM
although the accord may last for ever , it ranks a 2 on the coolness scale.

BeavenX5
11-28-2005, 01:42 PM
Have you considered an Audi A4 1.8T or 2.0T. They are AWD, gets good mileage and are fun to drive. I will for sure consider this one next year when it will be time for me to change.

One more option not discussed here is the Volvo S40 AWD. I think the Volvo in made in Canada and is based on the platform as the Ford Focus and Mazda 3 (another member of the Ford family).

Both these cars could be a little more than $30K but getting them slightly used is worth it for sure.
JC

stevo137
11-28-2005, 01:45 PM
You got me wondering about the mileage on my Magnum. Although they say 28 hwy I'm not sure how accurate that is. The best that I can tell you is that when I took the trip to Mania it was about 420 miles and I used one tank. It is an 18 gallon tank so it looks like I was in the 23 mpg range and that is with the 2.7 which I'm not crazy about.
It looks like the AWD with the 3.5 barely gets 20 so it does not meet your mileage criteria. I think that this report gives an accurate account of the car.
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/New/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38055/Act/Roadtest/

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 02:09 PM
BeavenX5 As posted already, here is the list of considered models....

All AWD=
Audi A4 Quattro- Manual - 2.0L- 22/31
Dodge Magnum- Automatic- 3.5L- 17/24
Volvo S40- Manual- 2.5L- 20/29
Ford 500- Autovariable- 3.0- 19/26
Subaru Legacy- Manual- 2.5L- 22/29

Have you considered an Audi A4 1.8T or 2.0T. They are AWD, gets good mileage and are fun to drive. I will for sure consider this one next year when it will be time for me to change.

One more option not discussed here is the Volvo S40 AWD. I think the Volvo in made in Canada and is based on the platform as the Ford Focus and Mazda 3 (another member of the Ford family).

Both these cars could be a little more than $30K but getting them slightly used is worth it for sure.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 02:13 PM
You got me wondering about the mileage on my Magnum. Although they say 28 hwy I'm not sure how accurate that is. The best that I can tell you is that when I took the trip to Mania it was about 420 miles and I used one tank. It is an 18 gallon tank so it looks like I was in the 23 mpg range and that is with the 2.7 which I'm not crazy about.
It looks like the AWD with the 3.5 barely gets 20 so it does not meet your mileage criteria. I think that this report gives an accurate account of the car.
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/New/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38055/Act/Roadtest/
By the report I looked at, the '06 AWD
3.5 is 17/24
the 5.7 gets 17/24. (I SAY WHAT?!?!?!)
Here is where I got my data from.....
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/FEG2006_GasolineVehicles.pdf

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 02:13 PM
although the accord may last for ever , it ranks a 2 on the coolness scale.
conservatively!!!!;)

M-Funf
11-28-2005, 02:32 PM
I'd go with the A4. I do like the Subi WRX STi's as well as the Mitsubishi Evo 8's, but neither of those will be comfortable as a commute car. You might have fun with them, but over time, they'll get uncomfortable and noisy.

If you need a bit more space, go for the A4 Avant (wagon). Extremely comfortable and a nice drive!

Good Luck!

rodltg2
11-28-2005, 02:37 PM
so what about the 350Z. is it a kids car? ive seen alot around here and i like the way they look. i dont need too many features since i already have a mercedes and dodge for usefull purposes. im looking at one to to drive to and from work. 10 min commute down country roads. and maybe some fun sunday drives to a a winery or my houseboat.

east tx skier
11-28-2005, 02:41 PM
After owning the Subaru I will never own another car without AWD. It doesn't snow around here but it rains a lot and the surefootedness of the AWD is amazing. I have never had the weels slip on this car whether it be from a stand still or going around a wet corner a little fast. I am sold on the safety of AWD.

I drove an outback from North Carolina to D.C. one weekend. Great little car to drive. My next car will likely be another accord. My wife's next car will likely be an avalon.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 02:58 PM
so what about the 350Z. is it a kids car?
I'd say so, Along with the S2000. Good "Fast and the furious" cars.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 02:59 PM
I drove an outback from North Carolina to D.C. one weekend. Great little car to drive. My next car will likely be another accord. My wife's next car will likely be an avalon.
No wonder you recomend them highly. Thats all you ever get;) . Change is good.:)

Upper Michigan Prostar190
11-28-2005, 03:03 PM
Were all good Leroy! :toast: I guess I was belaboring my point a bit. :o Anyway, I agree that the imports have better quality (and keep it quiet .....shhh, I work for a GM dealer :rolleyes: ) To be frank, I am having a heck of a time trying to advise my girlfriend what to buy. Her car is due for replacement now and she is moving here to da UP soon. she travels for her job(by air from here) and I dont know what to advise here since she wont be putting on lots of miles but wants 4x4 if possible. She would like 4x4 or AWD living in this climate, and still retain some decent fuel mileage and the only thing GM offers in that league is the Equinox, which she isnt too fond of. So I am thinking a Subaru Legacy might be the ticket for her. Its her call, but I am just trying to get her the best value I can. If she goes for a car, then I will hand pick her a program car. She likes the Malibu MAXX. and these arent in the class that Workin for Toys was searching for, but so far they seem like good little runners. Dont get me wrong, I would love to have one of those higher end imports that has been discussed here, just not in my budget now, gotta keep buying guitars!!!! :cool: . NICE CARS!!

UMP

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 03:24 PM
UMP, its looking like a lease on a 2 year is a few hundred a month for about any of these cars. Say between 2 and 4. Depending on the options. Just FYI.

6ballsisall
11-28-2005, 03:26 PM
so what about the 350Z. is it a kids car? ive seen alot around here and i like the way they look. i dont need too many features since i already have a mercedes and dodge for usefull purposes. im looking at one to to drive to and from work. 10 min commute down country roads. and maybe some fun sunday drives to a a winery or my houseboat.

Get a Mazda RX8. I drove one recently, those rotary engines are bad arse. You can wrap em to 9 grand (thats redline!) and they sound like turbine engines. Edmunds tests show them outperforming the 350z hands down

east tx skier
11-28-2005, 03:51 PM
No wonder you recomend them highly. Thats all you ever get;) . Change is good.:)

I guess I'm just up on them because I had to go without for a year while I had an Expedition for a daily driver. If money were no object, I'd get an e series benz, but assuming I want great a great bang/buck ratio, Honda has won my loyalty.

rodltg2
11-28-2005, 04:14 PM
common on eastie, get the e350 better yet the e500. your a lawyer for cryin out loud.

Kevin 89MC
11-28-2005, 04:48 PM
WFT, I know you said no SUV's, but did you look at the Toyota Highlander? I did read the whole post, but kinda quickly - 9 pages about vehicles on a boat list - must be winter!
Anyway, they get mid 20's MPG, (high 20's for 4 cylinder engines). MSRP is 25K-31K. I have several freinds/family members that have them, and all love them. Here in MN they are all AWD, and no one has any problems with them, and some have a bunch of miles on them already. If you really want good mileage, have you thought about the Highlander hybrid? Relatively new technology and unknown resale, but the numbers are impressive - low to high 30's MPG for low to mid $30K, and I think there are still tax incentives.

I personally never buy new vehicles, I think that 2-4 year old models have the best value, for me anyways. Almost all seem to depreciate so quickly for the first few years, then slow down a bit, at least for the cars I'm usually following. I've owned a bunch of Toyotas, and I've put a lot of miles on them, and have had amazingly great luck with all of them. For daily drivers, there is no comparison in my mind.

Rod, regarding the 350Z, a co-worker has one, I've driven it. Super fun car to drive! Probably not practical as a long commuter daily driver, but would be a great weekend car.

WFT, good luck with whatever you choose. (Almost left that transposed - ***!)
Kevin

lakes Rick
11-28-2005, 05:42 PM
Man you guys are way off...

My youngest son had a bit of a driving problem with faster cars.. He came to live with me about 2 1/2 years ago (18 years old) with a blown up mazda RX7...

At my Dad's geezer condo a lady had her original owner Oldsmobile cutlass ( 91) with 98K miles on it, always garaged and LIKE NEW for $900... Paid $700 for it and my kids still driving it..

By product of " uncle buck" as he named it, was NO more tickets, insurance went to $250 every 6 months from $250 every month ( liability only) and the car is actually a real nice driver.......

$700 bucks for a car that has been driven for over 2 years, now thats cheap transportation.....

east tx skier
11-28-2005, 05:42 PM
common on eastie, get the e350 better yet the e500. your a lawyer for cryin out loud.

Gotta have priorities. My dream car is a 300 SL Gull Wing. The rest of them just fall short.

Ric
11-28-2005, 06:24 PM
Man you guys are way off...

My youngest son had a bit of a driving problem with faster cars.. He came to live with me about 2 1/2 years ago (18 years old) with a blown up mazda RX7...

At my Dad's geezer condo a lady had her original owner Oldsmobile cutlass ( 91) with 98K miles on it, always garaged and LIKE NEW for $900... Paid $700 for it and my kids still driving it..

By product of " uncle buck" as he named it, was NO more tickets, insurance went to $250 every 6 months from $250 every month ( liability only) and the car is actually a real nice driver.......

$700 bucks for a car that has been driven for over 2 years, now thats cheap transportation..... Funny how that works! For awhile that car was one of the most stolen vehicles if I remember correctly

rodltg2
11-28-2005, 07:58 PM
Gotta have priorities. My dream car is a 300 SL Gull Wing. The rest of them just fall short.


thats one sweet ride!

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 10:33 PM
WFT, I know you said no SUV's, but did you look at the Toyota Highlander? I did read the whole post, but kinda quickly - 9 pages about vehicles on a boat list - must be winter!
Anyway, they get mid 20's MPG, (high 20's for 4 cylinder engines). MSRP is 25K-31K. I have several freinds/family members that have them, and all love them. Here in MN they are all AWD, and no one has any problems with them, and some have a bunch of miles on them already. If you really want good mileage, have you thought about the Highlander hybrid? Relatively new technology and unknown resale, but the numbers are impressive - low to high 30's MPG for low to mid $30K, and I think there are still tax incentives.

I personally never buy new vehicles, I think that 2-4 year old models have the best value, for me anyways. Almost all seem to depreciate so quickly for the first few years, then slow down a bit, at least for the cars I'm usually following. I've owned a bunch of Toyotas, and I've put a lot of miles on them, and have had amazingly great luck with all of them. For daily drivers, there is no comparison in my mind.

Rod, regarding the 350Z, a co-worker has one, I've driven it. Super fun car to drive! Probably not practical as a long commuter daily driver, but would be a great weekend car.

WFT, good luck with whatever you choose. (Almost left that transposed - ***!)
Kevin
Sorry Kevin,
No more toyotas in my house. Ive had enough. 1....
Now onto the SUV. I have a SUV that gets 16mpg or so. I have a pick up that gets 15 or so mpg. I do not want another pick up or SUV.
How can I explain it. I am not sure most of you drive. But sometimes when you just want to run out and scoot to the store, or the park, or the video store. I don't feel like getting in anything bigger than a car. Sometimes I say. My truck is very difficult to park in those tiny spaces at the malls, or walmarts, or whatever. I would much rather have a decent size but small cruizer that gets great mileage and is somewhat fun to drive, and is awd for those times I feel like turing off the road or not sweat the entire ride to and from work in snow or rain.
Not to mention the space another SUV would take over the car. I just see an advantage to what I am looking at.
Maybe I am looking up the wrong tree here. But I guess I won't know until its here and its too late.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 10:34 PM
Gotta have priorities. My dream car is a 300 SL Gull Wing. The rest of them just fall short.
Thanks for the advice on getting an old Mercedez, but no thanks. I have a car I don't want already.;)

Workin' 4 Toys
11-28-2005, 10:38 PM
Man you guys are way off...

My youngest son had a bit of a driving problem with faster cars.. He came to live with me about 2 1/2 years ago (18 years old) with a blown up mazda RX7...

At my Dad's geezer condo a lady had her original owner Oldsmobile cutlass ( 91) with 98K miles on it, always garaged and LIKE NEW for $900... Paid $700 for it and my kids still driving it..

By product of " uncle buck" as he named it, was NO more tickets, insurance went to $250 every 6 months from $250 every month ( liability only) and the car is actually a real nice driver.......

$700 bucks for a car that has been driven for over 2 years, now thats cheap transportation.....
I had a '79, ran like a top 130,000 at that time in '92. One special characteristic it had, I had to be hard on the gas, then let off, then stand on it again just to get it to shift each gear.
Not sure where this fits in the $30,000 new car, good fuel economy cars, but thanks for the memories....:confused:

Workin' 4 Toys
11-29-2005, 08:37 AM
Well, I drove the Audi A4 Quattro, and the Volvo S40 AWD last night. Both manual tranny's. Audi was 2.0L turbo and the Volvo being 2.5L Turbo.

I have more on the list for tonight. Hopefully I'll get over to them.

This is supposed to be fun right? "DEALERS 5UCK" the life out of me!!!

CAN THEY WASTE ANY MORE OF MY TIME!!??!!??!!??
I guess they do not realize even after explaning 50 times I AM NOT BUYING TONIGHT!!! That in fact I am really not buying tonight. Just let me take a ride in ONE of my potential candidates, and be on my way. Oh, and how friggin hard is it to put a lease $ together on a friggin' CAR YOU DEAL WITH EVERY SINGLE DAY. I even called ahead and told them what I wanted while I was driving to the showroom. WAS ANYONE PREPARED, HE11 NO!!! 2 friggin' hours at each!!!!!!!
Are all import dealers this way?
I Have never shopped an import of any type before. I have been in service alot with them and never got this impression before.

east tx skier
11-29-2005, 10:29 AM
Thanks for the advice on getting an old Mercedez, but no thanks. I have a car I don't want already.;)

Uh, no, that's my car. ;) Actually, that was a resposne to Rod's suggestion that I pony up for an E series. Plus, I think a '57 Gull Wing would pretty much burn through that $30K limit many times over. I don't know how many are left in the world, but I seem to remember their going for around $450K or so (ICBW).

What about a Volvo? Aren't they AWD now. The new ones are really nice. I'll bet you could find one 2-3 years old for under $30K.

lakes Rick
11-29-2005, 11:53 AM
Not sure where this fits in the $30,000 new car, good fuel economy cars, but thanks for the memories....:confused:

It fits into the window salesman budget for a nice car for commute...

rodltg2
11-29-2005, 01:02 PM
i agree buying car is exhuating. i was shopping for a work truck a month ago at the chevy dealer. i specifically told him that i was paying cash for the vehicle. the dumb *** kept asking me where i waned my payments to be, lets go talk with financing, how much down are you planning etc? i got so fed up i didnt buy anything. bought private party instead.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-29-2005, 01:19 PM
What about a Volvo? Aren't they AWD now. The new ones are really nice. I'll bet you could find one 2-3 years old for under $30K.
ETS, you must not have read my post directly before this.
Well, I drove the Audi A4 Quattro, and the Volvo S40 AWD last night

Leroy
11-29-2005, 01:45 PM
Be prepared to REALLY walk away...and never return to that place (you should do that anywhere you are mistreated). You have the money and that is more important than the car......



Well, I drove the Audi A4 Quattro, and the Volvo S40 AWD last night. Both manual tranny's. Audi was 2.0L turbo and the Volvo being 2.5L Turbo.

I have more on the list for tonight. Hopefully I'll get over to them.

This is supposed to be fun right? "DEALERS 5UCK" the life out of me!!!

CAN THEY WASTE ANY MORE OF MY TIME!!??!!??!!??
I guess they do not realize even after explaning 50 times I AM NOT BUYING TONIGHT!!! That in fact I am really not buying tonight. Just let me take a ride in ONE of my potential candidates, and be on my way. Oh, and how friggin hard is it to put a lease $ together on a friggin' CAR YOU DEAL WITH EVERY SINGLE DAY. I even called ahead and told them what I wanted while I was driving to the showroom. WAS ANYONE PREPARED, HE11 NO!!! 2 friggin' hours at each!!!!!!!
Are all import dealers this way?
I Have never shopped an import of any type before. I have been in service alot with them and never got this impression before.

east tx skier
11-29-2005, 02:24 PM
ETS, you must not have read my post directly before this.

What gave you that idea? ;) By the way, have you test driven the Audi A4 Quattro? ;)

As for the shopping imports thing, I'd say not in my two experiences with Honda dealerships (not that that does you any good as they don't have an AWD sedan).

Ford was the typical song and dance as was Jeep. Honda cut to the chase and showed me the actual invoice (not the printout)for the car I was considering. Told them I was visiting 3 other Honda dealers that day and that I would like to leave with an offer from them. If it was bettered, then I would not be back. I ended up back at the first dealership, who managed to come down a bit more off their first low offer. I think I paid about 4% over their cost (not including all the bs charges), my last new car.

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 02:24 PM
Be prepared to REALLY walk away...and never return to that place (you should do that anywhere you are mistreated). You have the money and that is more important than the car......


Tru Dat!

It is a commonly used tactic in sales to keep you focused with them. Studies show time and time again the longer you can keep a prospect in front of you the more likely you'll close the sale. Good sales people know it and use it. The good sales people are good enough to make you feel comfortable being there and you lose track of time, next thing you know your signing on the dotted line with a smile.

east tx skier
11-29-2005, 02:30 PM
Take a laptop with you. If you have a trade in, don't drive it over there until the very last visit. When I bought my expedition, I was always there in a car other than the one I was going to trade.

Also, the last two days of the month tend to cause many a car salesman to be desparate to make a deal.

Kevin 89MC
11-29-2005, 02:31 PM
Well, I drove the Audi A4 Quattro, and the Volvo S40 AWD last night. Both manual tranny's. Audi was 2.0L turbo and the Volvo being 2.5L Turbo.

I have more on the list for tonight. Hopefully I'll get over to them.

This is supposed to be fun right? "DEALERS 5UCK" the life out of me!!!

CAN THEY WASTE ANY MORE OF MY TIME!!??!!??!!??
I guess they do not realize even after explaning 50 times I AM NOT BUYING TONIGHT!!! That in fact I am really not buying tonight. Just let me take a ride in ONE of my potential candidates, and be on my way. Oh, and how friggin hard is it to put a lease $ together on a friggin' CAR YOU DEAL WITH EVERY SINGLE DAY. I even called ahead and told them what I wanted while I was driving to the showroom. WAS ANYONE PREPARED, HE11 NO!!! 2 friggin' hours at each!!!!!!!
Are all import dealers this way?
I Have never shopped an import of any type before. I have been in service alot with them and never got this impression before.
Yet another reason I never buy new, or even used from a dealer. I have never found one that knew as much or more than I did about the car, and they would practically hold a gun to my head to buy. I do remember you commenting about your bad experience w/Toyota, I forgot when I posted about the Highlander. If I were in your shoes, I'd get the Audi, 1-2 yrs old. I've driven a few older ones, they were a blast to drive. Haven't driven any Volvo's, but I don't think I could ever see myself owning one.
Good luck,
Kevin

M-Funf
11-29-2005, 02:34 PM
I guess they do not realize even after explaning 50 times I AM NOT BUYING TONIGHT!!! That in fact I am really not buying tonight. Just let me take a ride in ONE of my potential candidates, and be on my way.

Are all import dealers this way?


W4T,
Sorry to hear that you're having a bad experience. I had the same with Audi, they just looked down their nose at me when I was considering either an RS4 or an A6 4.2L. Wouldn't even come over and ask if they could help :(

A few years back, I had a GREAT experience with SAAB. They were extremely friendly, never pushed to get me to leave with a car that day, and their test drives are awesome! They let me take the car for as long as I wanted it, and didn't ride along...They also offered to let me have it for a weekend if I wanted to

My SAAB was a 9-5 Aero (FWD), but they also have a smaller, less expensive car, the 9-2X AWD. I don't know how it compares to the 9-5 because I haven't looked at one, but the price is good, and they have pretty good lease options.

Might be worth a look. :confused:

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 02:34 PM
Also, the last two days of the month tend to cause many a car salesman to be desparate to make a deal.

Tru Dat!

When you figure out what you want fax as many local dealerships that carry that model exactly the specifications you want. Let them know you are serious and will be buying this model from someone and that you have sent it to X number other local/regional dealers of this vehicle. Give them 2 days to get back with in writing their best price on a buyers order with your specified finance/lease requirements.
Once you have selected the "winning" dealer call them, let them know you chose them, and make arrangements to pick up the car. Do what Brieod did, tell them if you aren't in and out the door in your new car in 45 minutes or less deals off and you are going to the next in line.

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 02:37 PM
Oh one more thing, they are people to so no need to be nasty unless they are.

Remember, it's business it's not personal :guitar:

M-Funf
11-29-2005, 02:37 PM
When you figure out what you want fax as many local dealerships that carry that model exactly the specifications you want.

A buddy of mine did this when he was buying a new Ford truck (basic F150 shortbed standard cab).

Worked like a charm :D

Workin' 4 Toys
11-29-2005, 03:51 PM
Well, I hope for a better experience tonight. We shall see. If it goes the same, I am giving up......:vomit: (JK)

rodltg2
11-29-2005, 04:56 PM
go late on friday night, walk in the door and ask "whos not on the board" and " who's hungry?"

Ric
11-29-2005, 05:28 PM
go late on friday night, walk in the door and ask "whos not on the board" and " who's hungry?"
there are so many irritating things about car dealers I cant list them all
my favorite is the "what do you want your payments to be"
Or how about, "I'll show you our invoice"

I am not nasty about it as Jr mentioned, there isn't a need for it. I did have an old fella think I was too young to buy a car once but I actually enjoyed watching him walk away, I didnt get mad.

not nasty , but I always tell the sales guy up front, if you ask my about my payments or mention the word invoice, we're done. fair enough?

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 05:32 PM
my favorite is the "what do you want your payments to be"



I love that one. I always tell them I like the one payment plan. That usually makes em scratch their head once or twice. :rolleyes:

Ric
11-29-2005, 05:34 PM
I love that one. I always tell them I like the one payment plan. That usually makes em scratch their head once or twice. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

hey, any of those sales studies show how well a sales guy can do if he actually listens to his client?

east tx skier
11-29-2005, 05:36 PM
there are so many irritating things about car dealers I cant list them all
my favorite is the "what do you want your payments to be"
Or how about, "I'll show you our invoice"

I am not nasty about it as Jr mentioned, there isn't a need for it. I did have an old fella think I was too young to buy a car once but I actually enjoyed watching him walk away, I didnt get mad.

not nasty , but I always tell the sales guy up front, if you ask my about my payments or mention the word invoice, we're done. fair enough?

Tell me why you don't want to see their invoice?

east tx skier
11-29-2005, 05:51 PM
This has some good stuff on making offers.

http://www.carbuyingtips.com/car4.htm

BrianM
11-29-2005, 05:53 PM
the 9-2X AWD. I don't know how it compares to the 9-5 because I haven't looked at one, but the price is good, and they have pretty good lease options.

Might be worth a look. :confused:

The 9-2x is a rebadged and more expensive Subaru WRX. It is a much smaller car than anything that W4T is looking at. The Legacy GT is a much bigger car than the WRX.

Ric
11-29-2005, 06:09 PM
Tell me why you don't want to see their invoice?
It's not real. He may as well lie to me if he is going to show me an invoice. It's an insult.

BrianM
11-29-2005, 06:52 PM
It's not real. He may as well lie to me if he is going to show me an invoice. It's an insult.

That isn't true.

I sold cars (GMC, Olds, Cadillac) from 1998 to 2000 and we didn't do it unless asked for it but we would show the true invoice. It is public knowledge anyway. Edmunds and KBB have them available on their sites. This is what the dealer pays the manufacturer for the car when it is shipped to them. The only thing that the websites don't publish is the co-op advertising that the manufacturer charges the dealership. This amount varies by region and brand but in our case added $125 to the invoice.

Now there is a holdback on most vehicles that is not on the invoice. For GM this was 2% of the invoice and was paid to the dealer after the car was sold. Some dealers might be willing to cut into the holdback to sell a slow moving model or to make a deal in a slow time but most will not do it very often. The holdback is their built in profit that pays for the floorplan (interest on the vehicles on the lot) and the other overhead (paying insurance, building cost and keeping the lights on).

Lets face it selling cars is a business and the dealer makes money. The way I see it and the way I sold cars is that I didn't have to make all of my money on one customer. When I sold to people that had done their research and were informed it was easy I would bring out the invoice and the tell them what I was willing to sell it to them for, generally we would let the car go for $0 to $500 over depending on the model. I always shot straight with people. The people I made money on were the payment buyers or the people that had done no research. In that case you would start with MSRP and work down if you had to. It is amazing how many people go in to buy a car that know nothing about the car or how much it should cost. They walk out paying more than they had to but 99% of the time are happy to have done it because they didn't have a clue. The way I felt about it is if you didn't want to spend the time to research or have the brains to then that was the 'cost' of that leisure and/or ignorance.

I have bought 4 cars and sat in with 2 friends to help with the negotiations on their cars since I sold cars and the most I paid was $400 over invoice for a brand new model that was the first one the dealer had in. My truck I paid invoice for minus my rebate. I tell people that if you truely pay $500 or less over invoice for a vehicle you got a descent deal. Any more than that you could have done better and on some models you could have done much better.

rodltg2
11-29-2005, 07:00 PM
i agree with brianm, unfortunaltey on higher end cars like bmw, mercedes etc. there isnt much room to negoticiate. you either like it or you dont. otherwise 500 and under is a great number. edmunds will tell yuo what others are paying to give you a good reference.

BrianM
11-29-2005, 07:09 PM
i agree with brianm, unfortunaltey on higher end cars like bmw, mercedes etc. there isnt much room to negoticiate. you either like it or you dont. otherwise 500 and under is a great number. edmunds will tell yuo what others are paying to give you a good reference.

That is true. Most of the high enders, Mercedes, BMW. Lexus, Porsche don't really negotiate much if at all. All of the domestics and the midline imports do though. Volvo, Audi, Saab, Infinity, Acura which are more luxury lines also do (or at least most of the dealers will).

As for Edmunds the TMV that they give is a good indicator and if you end up paying that you know that you didn't get it stuck to you but you can do better than that 99% of the time. They get that number from actual sales and it is an average so the people that paid full MSRP swell that number a bit.

Ric
11-29-2005, 09:00 PM
That isn't true.

I sold cars (GMC, Olds, Cadillac) from 1998 to 2000 and we didn't do it unless asked for it but we would show the true invoice. It is public knowledge anyway. Edmunds and KBB have them available on their sites. This is what the dealer pays the manufacturer for the car when it is shipped to them. The only thing that the websites don't publish is the co-op advertising that the manufacturer charges the dealership. This amount varies by region and brand but in our case added $125 to the invoice.

Now there is a holdback on most vehicles that is not on the invoice. For GM this was 2% of the invoice and was paid to the dealer after the car was sold. Some dealers might be willing to cut into the holdback to sell a slow moving model or to make a deal in a slow time but most will not do it very often. The holdback is their built in profit that pays for the floorplan (interest on the vehicles on the lot) and the other overhead (paying insurance, building cost and keeping the lights on).

Lets face it selling cars is a business and the dealer makes money. The way I see it and the way I sold cars is that I didn't have to make all of my money on one customer. When I sold to people that had done their research and were informed it was easy I would bring out the invoice and the tell them what I was willing to sell it to them for, generally we would let the car go for $0 to $500 over depending on the model. I always shot straight with people. The people I made money on were the payment buyers or the people that had done no research. In that case you would start with MSRP and work down if you had to. It is amazing how many people go in to buy a car that know nothing about the car or how much it should cost. They walk out paying more than they had to but 99% of the time are happy to have done it because they didn't have a clue. The way I felt about it is if you didn't want to spend the time to research or have the brains to then that was the 'cost' of that leisure and/or ignorance.

I have bought 4 cars and sat in with 2 friends to help with the negotiations on their cars since I sold cars and the most I paid was $400 over invoice for a brand new model that was the first one the dealer had in. My truck I paid invoice for minus my rebate. I tell people that if you truely pay $500 or less over invoice for a vehicle you got a descent deal. Any more than that you could have done better and on some models you could have done much better.

Sounds like you were part of one of the good sales staffs who dont have a bunch guys who run numbers back & forth to a manager to make a deal.

But Hold on a minute.
I am not in that business but know business well enough to know that a dealerships cut is helluvalot more than $0-$500 over what they pay the manufacturer for a "unit". Throw in another 2%, and we're still aren't even close.

In your experience, how much less than sticker is the "invoice"? Roughly 10%? (a guess.)

When does the dealership "pay the manufacturer" for a unit? How exactly does a floorplan work? Would it not represent roughly 10% apr costs to a dealer? Just guessin'.....

How much does the average salesman's cut of the sale represent? (Not the commission on the financing, just the sales commision)

If we buy the invoice story then somehow, we all must believe that a dealership can gross 500bucks on a unit, hold out for that 2% holdback from Mfg or distributor & build these multimillion dollar meccas to Henry Ford on a conspicious freewayside near you and pay their sales guys and their banks and their shareholders and their electric bill, media etc etc etc

I am NOT knocking the auto salesman, or the business but I AM just saying that if you want to use the fabled invoice as your dealing point, fine, but don't kid yourselves as to what it represents. :rolleyes:

I'll throw a number out for fun.... 30% .
I bet I'm damn close and I'll never know til the day I want to buy a dealership.

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 09:06 PM
:rolleyes:

hey, any of those sales studies show how well a sales guy can do if he actually listens to his client?

Yep, sales is really a pretty easy job. Find the prospects needs and then find a solution to their need. The problem is most "sales people" are stuck on trying to jam their product down the prospects throat and forget to find out what it was the prospect is trying to accomplish.

My point with the prior comment is that 99.9% of all people make a high majority of their buying decisions based on emotional decisions, not sound business and analytical decisions. Most people buy based on relationships and trust. Both relationships and trust are earned easier by more time together. I can't tell you how many sales calls I have been on where the prospect is hell bent on not doing business with me only with me leaving with a signed contract and solving their problem. Those prospects needed someone to listen to them tell me why they didn't want to do business with me and then the fun begins. Usually in the end after signing the contract they start opening up the wallet further. Case in point, they made an emotional decision up front (hell bent on not doing biz with me) before they had the facts and could make a sound decision.


It's all about listening, controlling the sales call (while the client thinks they are in control) and thinking about the client first, your job and the company 2nd.

Leroy
11-29-2005, 09:10 PM
TRU DAT! Don't close the deal in the dealer room! Test rides are test rides, deal closing can be done outside the show room in competitive bid.



Tru Dat!

When you figure out what you want fax as many local dealerships that carry that model exactly the specifications you want. Let them know you are serious and will be buying this model from someone and that you have sent it to X number other local/regional dealers of this vehicle. Give them 2 days to get back with in writing their best price on a buyers order with your specified finance/lease requirements.
Once you have selected the "winning" dealer call them, let them know you chose them, and make arrangements to pick up the car. Do what Brieod did, tell them if you aren't in and out the door in your new car in 45 minutes or less deals off and you are going to the next in line.

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 09:23 PM
I have my 2006 new years resolution now.

Get everyone on this board posting

TRU DAT!!

:jumping: :jumping:

east tx skier
11-29-2005, 09:41 PM
It's not real. He may as well lie to me if he is going to show me an invoice. It's an insult.


Well, Brian has already mentioned this, but I'm not talking about the print out. The real deal is helpful.

Ric
11-29-2005, 09:46 PM
Well, Brian has already mentioned this, but I'm not talking about the print out. The real deal is helpful.
whaddaya mean ?

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 09:47 PM
Hoosier Bob would be a good authority on the true cost question.

I believe all manufacturers have a hold back fee. There are rebates for volume sales, profit can be made on the finance end, extended warranties, service contracts, etc..

The bottom line is most dealers selling typical brand cars can do well selling at our below dealer invoice.

east tx skier
11-29-2005, 09:51 PM
whaddaya mean ?

Check out the link I posted. There's a print out some dealers will try to pass off as the real invoice, which is little more than an overglorified window sticker. This is what you're talking about being "not real." And I agree with you inasmuch as it doesn't give you an idea of what they paid for the car and what you ought to pay.

Ric
11-29-2005, 09:54 PM
Check out the link I posted. There's a print out some dealers will try to pass off as the real invoice, which is little more than an overglorified window sticker. This is what you're talking about being "not real." And I agree with you inasmuch as it doesn't give you an idea of what they paid for the car and what you ought to pay.
I missed the link but without my checking it, can you tell me if I'm close to the "invoice" found at these consumer related sites being about 10% ?


:steering:

east tx skier
11-29-2005, 10:03 PM
Can't tell. I don't buy new cars anymore, so I try to see how close to KBB trade-in I can get. KBB is lower than NADA, so most dealers seem to go with that for trades, and use NADA for a jumping off point to sell.

Brian's $500 over actual cost figure was what I'd always heard as a good deal on domestic autos. Heard as high as $750 on imports being considered a "good deal." I got about $300 over on the last new car I bought (almost 10 yrs ago).

As far as MSRP goes, I'd say that's the figure that's not real (luxury rides excluded). Start low and work up. You only have one chance to be unreasonable.

BrianM
11-29-2005, 10:11 PM
Ric,

To answer your questions:

sales staffs who dont have a bunch guys who run numbers back & forth to a manager to make a deal.

But Hold on a minute.
I am not in that business but know business well enough to know that a dealerships cut is helluvalot more than $0-$500 over what they pay the manufacturer for a "unit". Throw in another 2%, and we're still aren't even close.

Actually you this is very close. Dealers do make some additional money if they sell X numbers of units. But holdback and whatever they make over invoice truely is the profit.

In your experience, how much less than sticker is the "invoice"? Roughly 10%? (a guess.)

Depends on the make but 7 - 10% is about right. Look at Edmunds they are right on

When does the dealership "pay the manufacturer" for a unit? How exactly does a floorplan work? Would it not represent roughly 10% apr costs to a dealer? Just guessin'.....

The dealer pays for the cars when they arrive at the lot. The 'floorplan' is basicly the dealers financing. This financing is arranged through a bank just like any other business inventory loan. Don't know what the apr is but probably somewhere around 8%

How much does the average salesman's cut of the sale represent? (Not the commission on the financing, just the sales commision)

I got paid 25% of the gross profit (read $$ over dealer invoice) put if we took a really thin deal we got a $100 minimum. We also got a $100 bonus if we leased the car. I averaged about $400 a car (new and used).

If we buy the invoice story then somehow, we all must believe that a dealership can gross 500bucks on a unit, hold out for that 2% holdback from Mfg or distributor & build these multimillion dollar meccas to Henry Ford on a conspicious freewayside near you and pay their sales guys and their banks and their shareholders and their electric bill, media etc etc etc

A dealer does not make a majority of its money from new car sales. It makes a majority of its money from service, parts, financing, used car sales and warranties in just about that order depending on the dealership. Profit on new cars is icing and in order to make much profit on new cars you have to have high volume. Our average gross on a new car was about $500 on a used car it was about $2500. And remember that selling new cars also brings in more used car trade ins that you make much more money on.

I am NOT knocking the auto salesman, or the business but I AM just saying that if you want to use the fabled invoice as your dealing point, fine, but don't kid yourselves as to what it represents. :rolleyes:

I'll throw a number out for fun.... 30% .
I bet I'm damn close and I'll never know til the day I want to buy a dealership.

On a new car they might make 1% gross if they are lucky. On used depending on the car it could be as much as your 30%

Bottom line is there is a lot of way a dealership makes money. If you go in and pay cash at invoice for a new car the dealer will gross less than 2% on the transaction.

Ric
11-29-2005, 10:14 PM
Can't tell. I don't buy new cars anymore, so I try to see how close to KBB trade-in I can get. KBB is lower than NADA, so most dealers seem to go with that for trades, and use NADA for a jumping off point to sell.

Brian's $500 over actual cost figure was what I'd always heard as a good deal on domestic autos. Heard as high as $750 on imports being considered a "good deal." I got about $300 over on the last new car I bought (almost 10 yrs ago).

As far as MSRP goes, I'd say that's the figure that's not real (luxury rides excluded). Start low and work up. You only have one chance to be unreasonable.

But the sticker is the only number we know for a fact.
This is a sticky subject(pun intended)
Hard to compare apples to apples in a conversation like this but I want to be clear regarding my comment about telling any saleseman not to mention the word invoice to me:
Brian said he'd show the "invoice" if they asked, cool
you werent referring to any "invoice" a dealer might offer you, cool

There is no way in hell that we as consumers know exactly the dealers "actual cost", before to add 500 or any other amount over or under it. That's really why I dont want the salesman to mention it and why I find it insulting.

I've bought too many new cars and I'll not brag about my deals(good or bad). Mainly because I know one things for sure, it's like vegas, they ain't doin it at a loss :D

BrianM
11-29-2005, 10:17 PM
There is no way in hell that we as consumers know exactly the dealers "actual cost", before to add 500 or any other amount over or under it. :D
The invoice that you get on Edmunds is what the dealer pays for the car. But, the difference between that and the MSRP is not all of the profit.
it's like vegas, they ain't doin it at a loss :D

You Betcha!

Ric
11-29-2005, 10:21 PM
good stuff but among other items, you lose me when your average sales commission was $400 at 25% of the $$ over invoice, yet you were selling most at $0-$500 over invoice?

Ric,

To answer your questions:

sales staffs who dont have a bunch guys who run numbers back & forth to a manager to make a deal.

But Hold on a minute.
I am not in that business but know business well enough to know that a dealerships cut is helluvalot more than $0-$500 over what they pay the manufacturer for a "unit". Throw in another 2%, and we're still aren't even close.

Actually you this is very close. Dealers do make some additional money if they sell X numbers of units. But holdback and whatever they make over invoice truely is the profit.

In your experience, how much less than sticker is the "invoice"? Roughly 10%? (a guess.)

Depends on the make but 7 - 10% is about right. Look at Edmunds they are right on

When does the dealership "pay the manufacturer" for a unit? How exactly does a floorplan work? Would it not represent roughly 10% apr costs to a dealer? Just guessin'.....

The dealer pays for the cars when they arrive at the lot. The 'floorplan' is basicly the dealers financing. This financing is arranged through a bank just like any other business inventory loan. Don't know what the apr is but probably somewhere around 8%

How much does the average salesman's cut of the sale represent? (Not the commission on the financing, just the sales commision)

I got paid 25% of the gross profit (read $$ over dealer invoice) put if we took a really thin deal we got a $100 minimum. We also got a $100 bonus if we leased the car. I averaged about $400 a car (new and used).

If we buy the invoice story then somehow, we all must believe that a dealership can gross 500bucks on a unit, hold out for that 2% holdback from Mfg or distributor & build these multimillion dollar meccas to Henry Ford on a conspicious freewayside near you and pay their sales guys and their banks and their shareholders and their electric bill, media etc etc etc

A dealer does not make a majority of its money from new car sales. It makes a majority of its money from service, parts, financing, used car sales and warranties in just about that order depending on the dealership. Profit on new cars is icing and in order to make much profit on new cars you have to have high volume. Our average gross on a new car was about $500 on a used car it was about $2500. And remember that selling new cars also brings in more used car trade ins that you make much more money on.

I am NOT knocking the auto salesman, or the business but I AM just saying that if you want to use the fabled invoice as your dealing point, fine, but don't kid yourselves as to what it represents. :rolleyes:

I'll throw a number out for fun.... 30% .
I bet I'm damn close and I'll never know til the day I want to buy a dealership.

On a new car they might make 1% gross if they are lucky. On used depending on the car it could be as much as your 30%

Bottom line is there is a lot of way a dealership makes money. If you go in and pay cash at invoice for a new car the dealer will gross less than 2% on the transaction.

BrianM
11-29-2005, 10:42 PM
good stuff but among other items, you lose me when your average sales commission was $400 at 25% of the $$ over invoice, yet you were selling most at $0-$500 over invoice?

Read it again1 I said I averaged $400 a car between new and used. New I averaged about $175 (with the lease bonuses). My dealership was a high gross low volume dealership we would sell them for $0 to $500 over but we tried our best not to. It was also before the $4000 rebates etc of today when they are really having to cut the profit (on the new car sale) to move metal.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-29-2005, 11:09 PM
go late on friday night, walk in the door and ask "whos not on the board" and " who's hungry?"
Funny, but I'd bet Nov 30th would be better than friday, no?

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 11:15 PM
Funny, but I'd bet Nov 30th would be better than friday, no?
At this time of year you should be able to really kick butt if you buy an 05' model. Even more so if what you buy had a body change or other substantial change in 06'. I bought my 02' Ram when the new bodystyle 03' Ram was just coming out. They were DESPERATE to get rid of the 02's :cool:

Workin' 4 Toys
11-29-2005, 11:22 PM
I looked again at the Rams. Looks like they offer both size crews. Funny I thought.

While I was checking out the Magnums. Too late for a ride. Ill have to go back tomorrow. I can't believe the 3.5 and 5.7 have exactly the same MPG rating. I know it is the technological breakthrough dropping cylinders for mpg, but why bother with the 3.5 then? I don't get it.

milkmania
11-29-2005, 11:22 PM
Funny, but I'd bet Nov 30th would be better than friday, no?

March 31st. 30 minutes AFTER closing time was my best day;)

called the guy before closing time and said I was coming over

Workin' 4 Toys
11-29-2005, 11:29 PM
Subaru. WOW, what a difference on performance. 170 hp 4 cyl legacy, to a 230 hp 4 cyl turbo legacy, to a 300 hp WRX STI.

The 170 being very depressing after the later 2. If anyone ever considers a subaru, DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF DRIVING EITHER TURBO'd JOB first. YOU WILL BE SERIOUSLY DISAPPOINTED with the 170hp non-t'd afterwards, SERIOUSLY!!!

I have a relative with the WRX STI that used to live in TEXAS and I have yet to see the car, but he was trying to tell me how it moves out. Now I know, it was an understatement.

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 11:34 PM
I looked again at the Rams. Looks like they offer both size crews. Funny I thought.



I agree, I don't think the quad cabs will last much longer now that the megacab is out

Workin' 4 Toys
11-29-2005, 11:37 PM
Something else on the turbo subi's. They told me they require Premium fuel. "REQUIRE" or the service engine light will come on. Now this goes back to the fuel we use in the boats. What to use, fresh regular, somewhat stale mid octane, or really stale premium.

Now I have to wonder, do all these cars I am or have been looking at (foreign) require premium? I have not been checking that, (Duh)

I have had trouble with some vehicles on premium. What to do, I am not going to experiment with fuel that runs $0.50 a gallon higher to see if it turns on the engine light and have to continue forking over the higher fuel for the remainder of the vehicle life. Who knows how much it will be in 2 years. MAYBE $5.00 A GALLON if we keep this up.....***?!?

6ballsisall
11-29-2005, 11:40 PM
Something else on the turbo subi's. They told me they require Premium fuel. "REQUIRE" or the service engine light will come on. Now this goes back to the fuel we use in the boats. What to use, fresh regular, somewhat stale mid octane, or really stale premium.

Now I have to wonder, do all these cars I am or have been looking at (foreign) require premium? I have not been checking that, (Duh)

I have had trouble with some vehicles on premium. What to do, I am not going to experiment with fuel that runs $0.50 a gallon higher to see if it turns on the engine light and have to continue forking over the higher fuel for the remainder of the vehicle life. Who knows how much it will be in 2 years. MAYBE $5.00 A GALLON if we keep this up.....***?!?


I'd hop on a good forum for those brand vehicles and do some searching.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-29-2005, 11:48 PM
I'd hop on a good forum for those brand vehicles and do some searching.
I am on the ultimate forum for just that. If I don't find what I am looking for, I move on. I am not THAT interested in them if you know what I mean.

What do you folks with Corvettes run? Same rule applies......
This will apply to me too if I get some more wishes granted....:D

BrianM
11-30-2005, 08:20 AM
I am on the ultimate forum for just that. If I don't find what I am looking for, I move on. I am not THAT interested in them if you know what I mean.

What do you folks with Corvettes run? Same rule applies......
This will apply to me too if I get some more wishes granted....:D

As a general rule anything that has a turbo is going to require premium. The turbo motors as a rule run at a higher compression thus the higher octane. Also from everything I read most non-turbo vehicles out there today don't really require premimium even if they state they do. Many of the manufacturers seem to think that there 'luxury' or 'sport' models should require premium to help maintain their image but in all actuality the vehicle will run just fine on regular.

About the Turbo Subies. I didn't drive an XT Outback for the reason you stated. For our needs the normally breathing 2.5 was plenty. My wife commutes to work about 75 miles round trip and I didn't want to run premium fuel and get about 5mpg less with the turbo. As a commute car having a turbo is like setting fire to dollar bills. But, I knew if I drove a Turbo first the HP side of my brain was going to fight with the common sense side. The 2.5 boxer engine is actually a great 4 banger. Lots of torque, good reliability and overall it performs very well. It just really isn't fair to put it up against its fire breathing 250hp or 300hp (in a much lighter car in the STi) brothers.

Ric
11-30-2005, 08:32 AM
Read it again1 I said I averaged $400 a car between new and used. New I averaged about $175 (with the lease bonuses). My dealership was a high gross low volume dealership we would sell them for $0 to $500 over but we tried our best not to. It was also before the $4000 rebates etc of today when they are really having to cut the profit (on the new car sale) to move metal.
I see what you mean about the commission now :o

I think we're parsing words at this point. Your hands on experience shows that the way you were commissioned for selling a car was based on the "invoice" and what you brought in over that number. Cool

Invoice isn't real. It isn't what a dealer pays for a car. I'm too practical. The numbers just dont add up. No, the shiny dealership on the freeway isn't grossing 1-2%. Edmonds does not show me what a dealer actually pays for a car. Reminds me of an SNL skit"how do we make money? Volume!" :D

For the record, I've never walked in and told a salesman "I've done my research and I know what you people pay for a car". I'd bet you did have people telling you that though, didn't you?

BrianM
11-30-2005, 08:42 AM
Invoice isn't real. It isn't what a dealer pays for a car. I'm too practical. The numbers just dont add up. No, the shiny dealership on the freeway isn't grossing 1-2%. Edmonds does not show me what a dealer actually pays for a car.


It is real and it is what they initially pay for a car. That being said there are other profits available from the manufacturer than just the difference between invoice and MSRP. Again I say on a new car sale(just the sale of that new car not financing, warranties or other extras) the dealership isn't making but 1 to 2%. But the whole picture of a dealership (everything but the actual sale of the new car metal) is VERY profitable. And in order to make all of that additional profit they have to take the skinny gross on the sale of the new car.

On another note it was amazing how much gross we made on used cars. We probably averaged about $2500 gross per vehicle and that was after the dealership packed (marked up what he actually paid for that car at auction or trade) $750 So $2500 gross meant that the owner of the dealership actually grossed $3250 on that car but I was only paid off of the lowers number. I sold quite a few used cars that I made $4-5K gross on. That almost makes you sick.
"I've done my research and I know what you people pay for a car". I'd bet you did have people telling you that though, didn't you?

You would be amazed at what people would come in and say. The job was actually really fun. It was never the same.

stevo137
11-30-2005, 08:43 AM
I always thought that the service dept. was where they really could make profit depending on how well it was run. Not sure if thats the case though...

BrianM
11-30-2005, 08:44 AM
I always thought that the service dept. was where they really could make profit depending on how well it was run. Not sure if thats the case though...

Absolutely. Service is #1 profit center of a well run dealership.

BrianM
11-30-2005, 08:51 AM
This is a great thread by the way. I haven't been this passionate about a thread since the early days of the Garage thread a few weeks ago. Keeps my mind running.

Leroy
11-30-2005, 08:56 AM
It is a good thread, I'm looking for more of WFT's test drive reports!


Perhaps WFT should call Car Talk! :D

Ric
11-30-2005, 09:49 AM
Hoosier Bob would be a good authority on the true cost question.

I believe all manufacturers have a hold back fee. There are rebates for volume sales, profit can be made on the finance end, extended warranties, service contracts, etc..

The bottom line is most dealers selling typical brand cars can do well selling at our below dealer invoice.
Come out Hoosier Bob! 8p

My number is still Thirty Percent (based on sticker)

BeavenX5
11-30-2005, 10:14 AM
Something else on the turbo subi's. They told me they require Premium fuel. "REQUIRE" or the service engine light will come on. Now this goes back to the fuel we use in the boats. What to use, fresh regular, somewhat stale mid octane, or really stale premium.

Now I have to wonder, do all these cars I am or have been looking at (foreign) require premium? I have not been checking that, (Duh)

I have had trouble with some vehicles on premium. What to do, I am not going to experiment with fuel that runs $0.50 a gallon higher to see if it turns on the engine light and have to continue forking over the higher fuel for the remainder of the vehicle life. Who knows how much it will be in 2 years. MAYBE $5.00 A GALLON if we keep this up.....***?!?
Both my cars have small turbos and require premium fuel according to the manufacturers. (Volvo V70 XC with low pressure turbo and Mazda Millenia with Miller engine supercharged). I am no mechanic but this is what I was told about this subject:

I was explained that turbo engines runs hotter than NA engines and have higher compression. This leads to a need for higher octane fuel in order to avoid detonation (I am not sure this is the proper word in English). Detonation occurs when a cylinder misses an explosion and has extra fuel in it for the following one. Extra fuel makes the explosion too strong and will have long term negative effects on the valves. Today’s car have knock sensors in them to limit detonation and therefore does not harm the engine as much. If you don't drive your car hard with wide open throttle, you should not have problems running your turbo engine with a lower octane fuel. If you do, because of the knock sensors, you will not get optimal performance out of them.

Personally, I run my cars with mid range fuel or alternate between regular and premium in between fill ups. Here in Montreal, Premium fuel in on sale at 3cents per liter more than regular fuel every Thursday (about 12cents per gallon). I don't think there is a real cost to that higher octane fuel as turbo engines are significantly smaller than their counterparts for similar performance. When used moderately, these engines are very economical for everyday driving. Not the best for towing.

mbradey
11-30-2005, 10:21 AM
I'm suprised nobody thought of the BMW325xi. It's all wheel drive, not bad on gas 19/28, has more hp than the Audi A4 and a little bit bigger inside. Try this link
http://www.bmwusa.com/BMW2003/Templates/Vehicles/Series/Model/ModelCompare.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2fvehicles%2f3%2f325xiSedan%2fcompa re%2ehtm&NRNODEGUID=%7b9B87BC41-E1FA-4EBD-A9D4-755834329ED4%7d&NRCACHEHINT=Guest
for a comparison of the A4 to the 325xi. The BMW also include 4 years all maintenance paid for. As far as reliability goes, I have a BMW540i with 250,000 km and it's been a great car with very little problems. The 325xi comes in just above you 30k and just below your mileage requirements but IMHO is a great car and very safe.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-30-2005, 10:25 AM
It is a good thread, I'm looking for more of WFT's test drive reports!


Perhaps WFT should call Car Talk! :D

I am not sure if this is a compliment or a Bash towards me, either way Thanks....:cool:

Leroy
11-30-2005, 10:37 AM
100% compliment WFT! THis is an interesting segment of cars.

bcampbe7
11-30-2005, 10:40 AM
I thought this was an interesting article:
Confessions of a car salesman (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html?tid=edmunds.a.landing.feature..3.*)

Workin' 4 Toys
11-30-2005, 10:41 AM
I'm suprised nobody thought of the BMW325xi.

So far its bone plain MSRP with no toys is $33.970.

3.0-liter dual overhead cam (DOHC), 24-valve inline 215-horsepower 6-cylinder engine with composite magnesium/aluminum engine block, Valvetronic, and Double VANOS steplessly variable valve timing

Electronic throttle control

6-speed manual transmission



Full Maintenance Program covers all factory-recommended maintenance, as determined by the Service Interval Indicator for 4 years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. Full Maintenance Program includes items that need replacement due to normal wear and tear, provided wear and tear exceeds BMW specifications. This includes items such as brake pads, brake rotors and wiper blade inserts that are not covered by the original New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Any adjustments required due to normal operating conditions are also included. For exclusions and limitations, refer to the Service and Warranty Information booklet that came with your new BMW, or see your authorized BMW center for details.

Due to low-profile tires, please note: wheels, tires and suspension parts are more susceptible to road hazard and consequential damage. Performance tires are not recommended for driving in snow and ice.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-30-2005, 10:50 AM
Absolutely. Service is #1 profit center of a well run dealership.
Is that why Ford gets $110.00 per oil change for the 7.3?

GMC gets $24.00 for the 5.3.

Toy gets $24.00 for the Toy "whatever is under the hood", but they give it free if it takes longer than 29 minutes.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-30-2005, 11:09 AM
BMW325xi
It's been added to my list. Thanks for the tip. If I can ever get through the existing list, It get in one and see what she fits.
Although, Can I get past my buddies calling me the "BEAMER". I'll have to factor that in too......
:o

BeavenX5
11-30-2005, 11:34 AM
It's been added to my list. Thanks for the tip. If I can ever get through the existing list, It get in one and see what she fits.
Although, Can I get past my buddies calling me the "BEAMER". I'll have to factor that in too......
:o
If your are also looking also at the BMW 325Xi, might as well look at the Mercedes C230 4matic
MSRP is $29,975 basic plus the 4matic (AWD system)

Workin' 4 Toys
11-30-2005, 11:52 AM
You know I recall something about these last two vehicles mentioned, the bmw and the benz being built by someone other than themselves. More a "illusion" car with "the tags" on it. I am not sure where I heard that, but can anyone comment on it?
These manu. were known for their luxury lineups. I suppose it depends on what some consider luxury, anyway.... so they went to "X" company and had them built for the budget minded and are built to no where near the specs of the real cars of the lineup.
Anyone?

bcampbe7
11-30-2005, 12:22 PM
You know I recall something about these last two vehicles mentioned, the bmw and the benz being built by someone other than themselves. More a "illusion" car with "the tags" on it. I am not sure where I heard that, but can anyone comment on it?
These manu. were known for their luxury lineups. I suppose it depends on what some consider luxury, anyway.... so they went to "X" company and had them built for the budget minded and are built to no where near the specs of the real cars of the lineup.
Anyone?


The only thing I have heard is that Merc's QA is crap. Merc's reliability is way low from what I understand.

rodltg2
11-30-2005, 12:54 PM
owning a mercedes reminds me of owning a mastercraft. smooth quite ride and solid contruction. more maintenence.

rodltg2
11-30-2005, 05:44 PM
today is the day to buy, last of the month .

stevo137
11-30-2005, 05:53 PM
I believe that Benz and Daimler Chrysler have a joint venture and they use a shared parts program. As I mentioned earlier, the supsension on my Magnum is a Benz suspension.
Is Jag owned by Ford?

rodltg2
11-30-2005, 05:55 PM
went to the nissan dealer at lunch and they were ready to sell at invoice.

M-Funf
11-30-2005, 06:20 PM
Is Jag owned by Ford?

Yup, sure is... :(

Workin' 4 Toys
11-30-2005, 08:18 PM
Dodge magnum was on the chopping block tonight. I have got to stop this madness. DO NOT DRIVE THE HEMI BEFORE THE 3.5. D4MN!!! I drove 2, a 3.5 and 5.7, was hoping for the 6.1 but they didn't have one. I think I broke the tires loose through second. My salesman had to change his pants afterwards!! I said, NAH, I need the AWD. They are few and far between. I gave it a look and its fun. But let me tell you, the mpgs are not in my range. And they did not have an AWD around here to drive. So I suppose the wheel spin I had fun with would be minimal anyway, and what fun would a HEMI be without tire smoke.....:D

Workin' 4 Toys
11-30-2005, 08:23 PM
Oh,and they don't come in manual trannys. That stinks..... Neither does the charger, Stinks worse. And the charger is not available in AWD, stinks even worse. They would be truely fun cars.

ski36short
11-30-2005, 09:34 PM
You know I recall something about these last two vehicles mentioned, the bmw and the benz being built by someone other than themselves. More a "illusion" car with "the tags" on it. I am not sure where I heard that, but can anyone comment on it?
These manu. were known for their luxury lineups. I suppose it depends on what some consider luxury, anyway.... so they went to "X" company and had them built for the budget minded and are built to no where near the specs of the real cars of the lineup.
Anyone?

Magna-Steyr does some vehicle assembly in Europe. I'm not positive here but I think they do the BMW X3 and some Benzes (G-Wagon and I think the new E-class). Not sure about the 3 series though. I'd think that a company would want to keep it's trademark product like the 3s in-house but what do I know??? Could you imagine someone else assembling F150s other than Ford??

Workin' 4 Toys
11-30-2005, 11:08 PM
After the Magnum, I went back to Audi for another round of abuse. This time much better. I did not deal with the same guy. Makes all the difference in the world not having the "perfect storm" salesman over my head.

And I now have a woman at a distant dealership working on some other details for me. Is this called price wars? It seems as if the Lineup of cars I am dealing with here, play a similar "game" as the "monopoly" thread I recall not so long ago. They ALL know exactly what each other are doing, and who is working with who.

I am playing the secret agent, so we shall see if it pays off.

I stopped at VW for fun, no AWD except the touregg I could find, and no thank you on that. But didn't stay to ask either.

I also stopped in the parking lot of the Jeep dealer and said to myself (what are you doing looking at another gas pig) 24 mpg on the Grand Cherokee I looked at. Although it is multipurpose... I convinced myself to leave without driving or asking questions in fear I may talk myself into it. So I left.

I also breezed through the BMW and BENZ. Sorry, the glitz and glame of the dealerships alone made me split. I had some serious fireball looks at me.

Then on to the Lexus dealer. Similar problem to the B & B, but the name was screaming "look over you shoulder, make sure nobody sees you here" and ready to say, I am shopping for my wife at a moments notice. I moved on.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 02:39 PM
i feel ya, try and get help at a porsche dealer.

so did you buy a car. i was at the auotmall last night and they where desparate to sell cars to get that last one in before the end of th month.

Dan K
12-01-2005, 03:04 PM
Wait till the end of this month (year) they are really hot to make a deal. I bought my last car on New Years Eve closing the deal at 9PM.
Everybody was happy.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 03:43 PM
thats what i was thinking before going out last night, only thing is that i have better things to do that night than mess around with some car salesman.

BeavenX5
12-01-2005, 04:48 PM
You mention that VW does not have any other AWD than the Touareg. Here in Canada we also have the Passat 4motion. Excellent car based on the audi A4 frame and quattro system.
There is a new model for the 2006 Passat that just came out 2 months ago. This 2006 might not have the 4motion option available yet in your area but it is in the brochure (link below). If you can find a 2005 Passat 4motion, it would be a great vehicule at a great deal since they just changed the model. :twocents:

http://www.vw.ca/vwca/objects/en/pdf/en_passat_brochure.pdf

JC

M-Funf
12-01-2005, 04:52 PM
We have the 4Motion here as well...

Nice cars, but may be a bit more than he wanted to spend...

PendO
12-01-2005, 04:54 PM
i feel ya, try and get help at a porsche dealer.

so did you buy a car. i was at the auotmall last night and they where desparate to sell cars to get that last one in before the end of th month.


I asked for help there once, but they just pointed to a sign that said "No Loitering" and told me that the gas station had a restroom!

Honestly, I don't know if I will ever own a sedan or compact... I'd just feel like a target for every SUV out there, let alone putting my wife and kids in one.

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 04:57 PM
your kidding me? thats just plain rude. i ws looking around for about 20 minutes and not one guy asked if i needed help. and then last night while at the ford dealer i couldnt shake the damn sales people. im surprised it was the same way at the lexus dealer.

one thing i cant stand is when i get flipped. another guy comes up and says the other guy had to take a call. pisses me off.

Leroy
12-01-2005, 05:24 PM
Great article, but long read!



I thought this was an interesting article:
Confessions of a car salesman (http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html?tid=edmunds.a.landing.feature..3.*)

rodltg2
12-01-2005, 05:56 PM
anyones boat sales person become pushy and annoying. i think if anyhting i was more pushy and calling them.

PendO
12-01-2005, 09:58 PM
your kidding me? thats just plain rude. i ws looking around for about 20 minutes and not one guy asked if i needed help. and then last night while at the ford dealer i couldnt shake the damn sales people. im surprised it was the same way at the lexus dealer.

one thing i cant stand is when i get flipped. another guy comes up and says the other guy had to take a call. pisses me off.

yeah man, I'm kidding you ... I did have a few salesmen not show me the time of day ... just took my loyalty to a different dealer (out of state) ... we get our pickups in Ronan (Ronan Dodge) ... when I was 20 or so my dad sent me over to look at trucks ... walk in the door and the owner says take my V10 out and then drive this new diesel ... this is the same guy who when my dad had Cancer come out of remission ... my dad called and said he was not going to be able to make it over for a few weeks until he got his strength back ... the owner asked if he could pray for him and then asked if he would mind if he just drove the truck over to him ... so the fam has bought a total of 4 rigs from him, the delivery was on #1 ... and its not like Ronan, MT and Spokane, WA are that close.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-01-2005, 10:58 PM
i feel ya, try and get help at a porsche dealer.

so did you buy a car. i was at the auotmall last night and they where desparate to sell cars to get that last one in before the end of th month.I added porsche Cayenne for a look and drive. Would not budge on the bottom end, no options even, would not go below $40K. So I had to void it out. Fun, but poor mpg, and high $.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-01-2005, 10:59 PM
I asked for help there once, but they just pointed to a sign that said "No Loitering" and told me that the gas station had a restroom!

Honestly, I don't know if I will ever own a sedan or compact... I'd just feel like a target for every SUV out there, let alone putting my wife and kids in one.
Do you drive 500 miles at week on a slow week?

Workin' 4 Toys
12-01-2005, 11:02 PM
You mention that VW does not have any other AWD than the Touareg. Here in Canada we also have the Passat 4motion. Excellent car based on the audi A4 frame and quattro system.
There is a new model for the 2006 Passat that just came out 2 months ago. This 2006 might not have the 4motion option available yet in your area but it is in the brochure (link below). If you can find a 2005 Passat 4motion, it would be a great vehicule at a great deal since they just changed the model. :twocents:

http://www.vw.ca/vwca/objects/en/pdf/en_passat_brochure.pdf

JC
VW I visited on the fly. I did not check internet, or anything. I walked the lot, checking each line up. No one came out. Must have been the 18 degree weather with some wind felt like 5. Oh well, I guess I had to find out here what the salesperson could have showed me.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-01-2005, 11:04 PM
Subaru Legacy or Outback. 5 star crash rating all around with standard side and curtain airbags. Available 4 cyl Turbo or 6 cyl. Best AWD system around and extremely reliable. Easy under 30k. I think they are the 'sleepers' in this category and really deserve a look.

Legacy http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?model=LEGACY

Outback http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?model=OUTBACK

I have an '05 2.5i Limited Outback and absolutely love the car. Features, price, saftey and reliability are awsome. Have put over 30k miles on it in just over a year. My mom has a '98 with right at 100k miles and has done nothing but standard maintenance.
I went from the Legacy to the Outback, not sure if its my best idea yet. I found out they have an Outback Sedan too. Not sure which is better for my comparison. Not many OB Sedans around, but they are out there.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-01-2005, 11:21 PM
I know this is going to be conflicting information to my original quest, however, I have considered adding the Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo to the lineup.
My wife thinks I am crazy, I have a brochure for each model I have been considering. Covering the table, couch, and chairs.
WHY ARE THERE SO MANY CHOICES, so many of them seem the same.
This is taxing, but fun for the most part. It would be nice if I had more time to do this type of stuff. I guess concentration would help. I should probably begin to really narrow it down soon.

PendO
12-01-2005, 11:23 PM
2005 or '06
Something a little larger, and maybe AWD.
NO SUV's
Keep it under $30,000.
Something with a little more impact protection, but still get about or close to 30MPG HWY.

Yeah, I forgot how the thread started ... I'd vote for a Volvo or a Subaru.

PendO
12-01-2005, 11:30 PM
Do you drive 500 miles at week on a slow week?

I drove 300 today ... pretty normal:)

Workin' 4 Toys
12-01-2005, 11:30 PM
Yeah, I forgot how the thread started ... I'd vote for a Volvo or a Subaru.
They and Audi are all fun to drive, and are in about the same $ catagory. Audi being slightly higher.
The styling on the Audi is much better I think. The volvos still have that boxy look, and the subis look the same they have for decades.
The engines are all comparable. I guess that what makes this so tough. I have yet to figure out which direction is best in all catagories.
All require premium fuel, and have turbos in some configurations.

NON of which have ANY manual trannys left as of today in the models I am looking at. The A4's are hot sellers.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-01-2005, 11:31 PM
I drove 300 today ... pretty normal:)
And what are you driving again?

PendO
12-01-2005, 11:39 PM
They and Audi are all fun to drive, and are in about the same $ catagory. Audi being slightly higher.
The styling on the Audi is much better I think. The volvos still have that boxy look, and the subis look the same they have for decades.
The engines are all comparable. I guess that what makes this so tough. I have yet to figure out which direction is best in all catagories.
All require premium fuel, and have turbos in some configurations.

NON of which have ANY manual trannys left as of today in the models I am looking at. The A4's are hot sellers.


I've never owned a Volvo, but I have heard (so not sure how reliable the source was) that for side impact they are some of the best vehicles out there.

I work for a trucking company so the miles probably don't count 150K on the 99 3/4 ton and lots of hours behind the wheel of various International trucks.

With the kind of miles you are going to put on it, how long do you plan to keep the car.

How about the Nissan Murano (lot less than the infinity cousin) ... not quite the gas mileage you are looking for?

Workin' 4 Toys
12-02-2005, 09:18 AM
On the Nissan. No thanks. Don't like them at all. Styling is not my slice o' cheese.
I am digging the new GC, thats why I put them in the mix. They are sharp, and I'm going to double check my resources, I think they still use a live axle front and rear. Now that's what I'm talking about. Perhaps JR could help with this one. I forgot to lay under it when I was at the dealer the other day. I am pretty sure Jeep went from live to IFS then back to Live. Not positive on that one.
I would hope this thing will stick around for 2 or 3 years, it is going to be a lease so it has yet to be determined.
I thought that about the Corolla I bought too, and its already on its way out. I think I've lasted a few weeks with it. If anyone knew how hard it is to drive my trucks for leisure, then get in the car for long rides, it is punishing. The car is great for what its for. Great on fuel and reliable, even in these teen temperatures we have been in.
I am not sure how I will let the corrolla go yet, trade or sell myself. But I better figure that out soon.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-02-2005, 09:20 AM
I've never owned a Volvo, but I have heard (so not sure how reliable the source was) that for side impact they are some of the best vehicles out there.

I work for a trucking company so the miles probably don't count 150K on the 99 3/4 ton and lots of hours behind the wheel of various International trucks.

With the kind of miles you are going to put on it, how long do you plan to keep the car.

How about the Nissan Murano (lot less than the infinity cousin) ... not quite the gas mileage you are looking for?
Have you ever had the chance to drive one of those F750's or the International equivalent? Man, if I only had a garage big enough, and the coin available to drop..... And then I guess I would park it next to my collection of automobiles I only dream about.

Leroy
12-02-2005, 09:23 AM
WFT; Do you care about interior, color and features, other than stick?

Workin' 4 Toys
12-02-2005, 09:34 AM
WFT; Do you care about interior, color and features, other than stick?
I did give up the stick. It makes the vehicle fun to drive yes, but they are very hard to find here. The models I have access to just don't have them available. Let alone the features that come with the stick.
Interior. I am now sold on leather, this will be my first ever leather vehicle, so Ii guess I am gambling with it. But what the heck right.
Color, silver or gray first. Then we go down the color spectrum. But it depends on the vehicle. I like certain candyapple reds, certain blues, certain greens, I am not into wht or blk.
Features, stereo. I would like a boston acoustics or bose sound system. But not mandatory, I can modify later to my liking if I feel the need.
Although I thought that about my Ford, and its still stock. The GMC stereo is awesome.
Otherwise I am not picky. ;)

SO MANY CHOICES... AHHHHHHH!!!

BrianM
12-02-2005, 09:35 AM
I would hope this thing will stick around for 2 or 3 years, it is going to be a lease so it has yet to be determined.
.

How can you lease putting on 500 miles a week? Unless something has changed unless you were putting 15k or less on a car a lease made zero financial sense. They got real expensive if you had to buy 10K miles a year either up front or on the back end.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-02-2005, 09:39 AM
How can you lease putting on 500 miles a week? Unless something has changed unless you were putting 15k or less on a car a lease made zero financial sense. They got real expensive if you had to buy 10K miles a year either up front or on the back ebd.
Don't forget I have 3 vehicles. Or will have 4 for a little while.
And they do have 25K year leases. Alomst everyone does except Subaru I have come to find out.

BrianM
12-02-2005, 09:42 AM
I went from the Legacy to the Outback, not sure if its my best idea yet. I found out they have an Outback Sedan too. Not sure which is better for my comparison. Not many OB Sedans around, but they are out there.

Why not the wagon? If you are considering a GC then I am guessing you like the utility end of it. Part of the reason we bought the outback is we wanted SUV utility but my wife doesn't want to dive an SUV. Plus the gas mileage is 10mpg better than pretty much any SUV. Outback XT Wagon. All of the leather and other goodies (awsome moonroof). More grond clearance than most SUVs (8.2") and with the Turbo pretty darn fast.

PendO
12-02-2005, 01:13 PM
Have you ever had the chance to drive one of those F750's or the International equivalent? Man, if I only had a garage big enough, and the coin available to drop..... And then I guess I would park it next to my collection of automobiles I only dream about.


Stepped up and sat in one the dealership (IHC version) had (the Camo one) ... what I would like, if ever available, is the Powerstoke diesel in an Expedition ... the AdvanceTrac feature on the Ford SUV's is one that I will never be without, it has saved us twice ... once from a Moose and once from the Mountains (going over the pass between Idaho and Montana in a Snowstorm)

Like Brian said, 26K miles a year could get expensive on a lease, I envy you car shopping, I have thought about it but still have 2 years left on a 0% on the wife's ... all in all I really do like the Exploder, just wouldn't mind the room of an Expedition and the torque of the diesel ... did I mention I like diesel:) GL man!

Workin' 4 Toys
12-02-2005, 02:54 PM
Why not the wagon? If you are considering a GC then I am guessing you like the utility end of it. Part of the reason we bought the outback is we wanted SUV utility but my wife doesn't want to dive an SUV. Plus the gas mileage is 10mpg better than pretty much any SUV. Outback XT Wagon. All of the leather and other goodies (awsome moonroof). More grond clearance than most SUVs (8.2") and with the Turbo pretty darn fast.
Oh yeah, I was only mentioning that they had one. The wagon (although if I own it, I wouldn't call it a wagon;) ) is what I looked at and drove. 250 HP. I also checked out the sedan. The wagon is on my list as one of the potential candidates.

BrianM
12-02-2005, 03:00 PM
The wagon (although if I own it, I wouldn't call it a wagon;) ) .

I call it a Sport Wagon. Add that sport part and it sounds much cooler. :cool:

Now if I can just get over the tree huggimg lesbian stigma that seems to follow Subaru. Oh well. :o

Workin' 4 Toys
12-02-2005, 03:02 PM
Stepped up and sat in one the dealership (IHC version) had (the Camo one) ... what I would like, if ever available, is the Powerstoke diesel in an Expedition ... the AdvanceTrac feature on the Ford SUV's is one that I will never be without, it has saved us twice ... once from a Moose and once from the Mountains (going over the pass between Idaho and Montana in a Snowstorm)

Like Brian said, 26K miles a year could get expensive on a lease, I envy you car shopping, I have thought about it but still have 2 years left on a 0% on the wife's ... all in all I really do like the Exploder, just wouldn't mind the room of an Expedition and the torque of the diesel ... did I mention I like diesel:) GL man!

I know they threw the Diesel option around for the Exped. but it failed too many tests from what I hear. Manuf. tests. So they threw around the idea of a 6 cyl International. I would not be surprised it if it shows up soon. Especially now that the excursion is gone.
I would have considered it to if it were available, and if they put live axles in it like the excursion had. Oh well.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-02-2005, 03:04 PM
I call it a Sport Wagon. Add that sport part and it sounds much cooler. :cool:

Now if I can just get over the tree huggimg lesbian stigma that seems to follow Subaru. Oh well. :o
MAYBE THATS why they don't have many STICK;) shifts!!!! HUH, I think you have uncovered the mystery I was asking the salesperson, why no stick shifts in the lot. They make them.... No answer....

BrianM
12-02-2005, 03:14 PM
I was asking the salesperson, why no stick shifts in the lot. They make them.... No answer....

A lot of the guys on this site http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/ have manual XTs. Pretty good site for info. Not near as active as here but they get pretty good traffic.

PendO
12-02-2005, 04:07 PM
partial threadjack ... when they do the Onstar commercials for people who lock themselves out and/or kids in a car ... why not just put a keypad on the door like Ford ... b/c they couldn't charge you $20 a month:)

I do love that feature of the Ford.

rodltg2
12-02-2005, 04:26 PM
thats one thing i really miss about my expedition. i would purposely leave my keys in the car so i wouldnt have to carry them. especially handy at the lake so you dont have to worry about dropping in them in the water.

east tx skier
12-02-2005, 05:26 PM
Best feature about the exped in my opinion. I used to be notorious for skiing with my Jeep keys in my pocket. We always through the Ford keys in the console and lock her up. Quick code and we're back in business.

rodltg2
12-02-2005, 05:33 PM
i loved my expy, if it wasnt for the high miles i would have kept it.

PendO
12-02-2005, 06:07 PM
i loved my expy, if it wasnt for the high miles i would have kept it.

How long did you have yours for Rod? Hard to justify the Lincoln Navigator now that the Expedition has a Limited trim level and the bump up on HP in the 05's made them identical (virtually)... also, unlike the escalade, the 2nd row windows go all the way down ... still though, the caddy's seats win hands down IMO ... if they do ever put a good diesel in the expedtion I would be tempted ... also, the exped/navi has the competition beat on the way the 3rd row seat has full leg room.

rodltg2
12-02-2005, 06:24 PM
i bought it new in 99, 2000 model. and i sold it wiht 120K almost 2 years ago. i really liked it. only reason i went with my dodge was because i thought a pick up would be better for work and be more practical for my lifestyle. turns out i still rather have an suv.

stevo137
12-02-2005, 06:45 PM
partial threadjack ... when they do the Onstar commercials for people who lock themselves out and/or kids in a car ... why not just put a keypad on the door like Ford ... b/c they couldn't charge you $20 a month:)

I do love that feature of the Ford.
And now they offer "Blondestar".
Has anyone seen this?
http://www.di-links.com/link2036.html
I love my blondie!

rodltg2
12-02-2005, 06:49 PM
blondies are great!

Workin' 4 Toys
12-03-2005, 02:35 AM
Jeep dropped the front live axle for IFS in '06 in the Grand Cherokee. Live axle in the rear.
It is a strut/coil setup in front.

Leroy
12-03-2005, 09:09 AM
That is a feature that can be bad as you'll get in the habit with your exped and then do it with another keypadless car, if you are like me!



Best feature about the exped in my opinion. I used to be notorious for skiing with my Jeep keys in my pocket. We always through the Ford keys in the console and lock her up. Quick code and we're back in business.

Leroy
12-03-2005, 09:11 AM
WFT; are all of these AWD's equiped with traction control so you basically cannot spin the wheels? My 17 yr old was complaining about that on his car!!!

Ric
12-03-2005, 09:16 AM
i loved my expy, if it wasnt for the high miles i would have kept it.
I see very few of these lifted ROdl. They look so damn tuff like that


edit: in the spirit of limiting the threadjack.... This is not a commuter economy vehicle :D

Workin' 4 Toys
12-03-2005, 12:34 PM
WFT; are all of these AWD's equiped with traction control so you basically cannot spin the wheels? My 17 yr old was complaining about that on his car!!!
Yes, SOME have a button to turn it on and off. Normally on. I think the volvo had it on always, audi had a disable function, Magnum had a disable, subaru was on always, and jeep had a disable function. Those are the ones off the top of my head.
I know Lexus and Mercedez also have disablers too, but even in disable function it still won't let you have much fun. I think in those it disables traction, but not stability, so the ebrake and other braking functions still take over and not allow fun cornering. I have not tested it yet, but supposedly the Jeep GC now contains the exact same stability controls as Merc, which work very well.
Then some cars like the GTO apparently have some stupid safety to not let much fun happen either. A safety on the clutch that won't let you dump it and spin like crazy.
I think the corvettes have something similar. I am working on checking those for my NEXT comparison....

Workin' 4 Toys
12-03-2005, 12:39 PM
I see very few of these lifted ROdl. They look so damn tuff like that


edit: in the spirit of limiting the threadjack.... This is not a commuter economy vehicle :D

A lifted truck in TEXAS!!! NO way!;)
Speaking of which, When I was down there a year or so ago, I stopped in at "THE SHOP" he was working on a new F150. Putting on 49" IROKs. I believe he put live Dana 60's front and rear as I recall. This was when they first came out with that size tire. It would take about 5 minutes for that to get impounded here as "an unsafe vehicle or something". Anyway, it seemed like "the norm" there. Talk about getting squashed in a car. I had WAY TOO many issues with the law here when I had my truck with 40"X18"X16" on it.

TJ off....

bdecker
12-03-2005, 01:11 PM
I went through the same decision two years ago (04). Lots more on the market now, but I think my decision would still be the same, although a little higher than $30k. I went with the BMW 330XI after shopping the A4 and Volvo's S60R. One of the key factors was a manual transmission, which knocked out lots of the choices. All were nice cars, but in my mind their was no comparision in handling, shifting, and quality. You could get a 325xi in the mid thirties as long as you didn't load it up too much. Mine has been awesome, and with snows on it will hardly spin a wheel. Unlike the S60R and some of the other competitors (Subaru Legacy, Mazda's new supped up 6) the BMW is not a turbo, which means you don't have to rev it past 3k to have more power than a 4 banger accord...

We live on a steep uphill drive with 2 turns, and regardless of the conditions then Bimmer goes right up... I get around 26, but the 04 was rated for 29 with the 6 speed (perhaps if I went a little slower...). Also, if you're looking for the premium sedan, you're probably going to be using the high test. :(

Good luck

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 08:45 AM
It's been narrowed down to three. We shall see.

BriEOD
12-06-2005, 08:57 AM
What 3? :confused:

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 09:08 AM
It's been about two weeks of beating my brain over all my options. I drove nearly 20 vehicles, I forget, maybe it seems like it. I have brouchures all over the house. These final three reflect more than just another commuter. It has been a real long time since I did not have it set in my mind what I wanted BEFORE I shopped. When I bought my truck, I went to a Ford dealer with my list of specs, and said, this is EXACTLY what I want. Order it. The same went for my Yukon but they had the identical truck that just rolled off the truck about a week before I arrived with the need, so no order was needed. The car I just bought, I did somewhat the same, spend less than "X"$ and get higher than 30mpg. Not to much thinking there, searched autotrader within 50 miles, narrowed the search, and pop, out comes my last car(I did not care at all what it was) it was only to be a short term fix for me to keep me from spending $130.00 a week in fuel when diesel was $3.79 a gallon. Now I had soem time to think.
This time, I drove myself crazy. Losing sleep, up all night searching the internet, posting here, test drives. In the meantime, working and spending as much time as possible with my family. Which sometimes meant I was out all night(after closing) in the freezing weather doing my reviews, because the family went to bed and they wouldn't miss me.

Don't laugh at what I have boiled it down too, it has been a rough two weeks.......

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 09:13 AM
All AWD.... Autos.
Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.7 V6
Audi A4 Quattro 2.0T
Subaru Outback Wagon 3.0

east tx skier
12-06-2005, 10:19 AM
2005 or '06
Something a little larger, and maybe AWD.
NO SUV's
Keep it under $30,000.
Something with a little more impact protection, but still get about or close to 30MPG HWY.

Just to bring it back to the original querry. While the Grand Cherokee is a fine vehicle, it's an SUV and when I looked at them, they weren't getting close to 30 mpg. Actually, last I checked, the 6 cyl was only getting about 2 mpg better in the city than the 8 cyl.

bcampbe7
12-06-2005, 10:22 AM
Just to bring it back to the original querry. While the Grand Cherokee is a fine vehicle, it's an SUV and when I looked at them, they weren't getting close to 30 mpg. Actually, last I checked, the 6 cyl was only getting about 2 mpg better in the city than the 8 cyl.


I looked at one about 1 month ago, I think it was the Hemi.
The sales guy said it would get 27MPG! Fairly close to 30MPG.
It shuts off cylinders to save fuel or something.

stevo137
12-06-2005, 10:25 AM
We are very happy with our Grand Cherokee with all time 4 wheel drive but it is not very good on gas with the 5.2 litre V-8.
Mrs. loves the power though... ;)

JDK
12-06-2005, 10:38 AM
All AWD.... Autos.
Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.7 V6


....all autos???

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 10:47 AM
Just to bring it back to the original querry. While the Grand Cherokee is a fine vehicle, it's an SUV and when I looked at them, they weren't getting close to 30 mpg. Actually, last I checked, the 6 cyl was only getting about 2 mpg better in the city than the 8 cyl.
I put NO suv's on there because thinking of what I wanted, I knew all about them, and wanted to give the recommended cars a chance. Does that make sense?
There are WAY too many choices as it was with cars. Let alone tying SUVs in the mix. Just look at all the suggestions WITHOUT suvs in it. Then try to get around and give them at least a once over.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 10:50 AM
....all autos???
Yes, all that are left are autos. Manuals have become to few and far between here. Even the Audi places are having a hard time keeping them in, and are not expecting any in soon. I did not nec. need manual, I would have prefered it, but I wanted to either go or no go on it. And with the difficulties I ran into shopping, I just dropped it.
No lose or gain, no big deal either way. I find the cars I looked at added a whole new sense of fun having to drive all the time.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 10:54 AM
We are very happy with our Grand Cherokee with all time 4 wheel drive but it is not very good on gas with the 5.2 litre V-8.
Mrs. loves the power though... ;)
Yes, the V8's are cool. Not to mention being able to get the HEMI in a Jeep GC now. The one I am considering is the V6.
Stevo, that DC dealer must have loved you.....

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 10:58 AM
I looked at one about 1 month ago, I think it was the Hemi.
The sales guy said it would get 27MPG! Fairly close to 30MPG.
It shuts off cylinders to save fuel or something.
I took all this type of info into consideration. But the Hemis I know people use, are no where near what they thought (or were told) however you want to look at it.
I am not ready for the cylinder shut down technology yet. I still can't let myself get past not having a throttle cable....:eek:

east tx skier
12-06-2005, 11:16 AM
I looked at one about 1 month ago, I think it was the Hemi.
The sales guy said it would get 27MPG! Fairly close to 30MPG.
It shuts off cylinders to save fuel or something.

The 2006 6 cyl Grand Cherokee is rated 17/22. The 8 cyl is 15/20. Real world fuel economy is almost certainly worse than what the window sheet says.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

Ric
12-06-2005, 11:24 AM
I am not ready for the cylinder shut down technology yet. I still can't let myself get past not having a throttle cable....:eek:
I'm ok so far without a throttle cable on my MC and on my Chivvy

Datdude
12-06-2005, 11:43 AM
I would get the Audi

stevo137
12-06-2005, 11:47 AM
Stevo, that DC dealer must have loved you.....
Toys, we bought the Cherokee used from a reputable local lot about 5 years ago and did not finance. It is a 93' (the same year as our boat) and still in great shape. They didn't change the body style very much in the 90's and it looks much newer than it is. The Magnum is a company fleet car so I did not deal with a dealer on it either.
I have had good luck purchasing used and am happy to say that we have no car or boat payments at this point. :)

M-Funf
12-06-2005, 01:08 PM
We are very happy with our Grand Cherokee with all time 4 wheel drive but it is not very good on gas with the 5.2 litre V-8.
Mrs. loves the power though... ;)

You want power? Check out the new Jeep GC SRT8... :eek3:

Jeep GC SRT8 (http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000653070649)

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 08:16 PM
You want power? Check out the new Jeep GC SRT8... :eek3:

Jeep GC SRT8 (http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000653070649)
I did. But I was not about to make the same mistake again driving the High HP, and then the little guy. I would certainly make a poor (economical) decision.
I have some other ideas in the works to satisfy my HP/TQ needs.
Well, unless the new sled gets me where I need to be, I'll be satisfied with that.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-06-2005, 08:18 PM
The 2006 6 cyl Grand Cherokee is rated 17/22. The 8 cyl is 15/20. Real world fuel economy is almost certainly worse than what the window sheet says.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/
And after driving the Hemi, I would certainly need tires and be no where near that MPG because I would have a hard time keeping my foot out of it. The 6 would get me where I need to be. After driving it, it's no 250HP 3000#car, but it does alright.

BrianM
12-22-2005, 10:19 AM
W4T did you buy anything yet or are you any closer to a decision?

Workin' 4 Toys
12-22-2005, 03:30 PM
Oh, yea, got the Grand Cherokee. It was a long drawn out battle let me tell you. I went back and forth so many times trying to talk myself into a car of any sort, even nice ones. I drove them all and price war'd myself to death. From Ford, Volvo, Audi, Acura, Subaru, and Dodge (did I miss any).
I just couldn't do it. I am not into cars (that I have to drive everyday) none of them did much for me. Now the GC is nothing to brag about, don't get me wrong. But I don't get that cooped up feeling in it.
And the SUVs out there, well, thats a whole different story..... Looked at them too before I thought I wanted a car.
I tried, I really did......

east tx skier
12-22-2005, 05:48 PM
After driving an exped for a year as a daily driver, I picked up a high mileage accord. My assessment was the exact opposite, i.e., I'll never not own a car again.

rodltg2
12-22-2005, 06:00 PM
wft, dis you by any chance check out the jeep commander. i saw a comercial for it and it looks pretty cool.

Footin
12-22-2005, 07:22 PM
How bout a Yugo.....turbo maybe...

Workin' 4 Toys
12-22-2005, 08:09 PM
wft, dis you by any chance check out the jeep commander. i saw a comercial for it and it looks pretty cool.
Yes, and priced it. Look back through the thread..... I found it looks WAY TOO much like the old ISUZU trooper. Room for 7, if I wanted room for 7 I'd for sure go for another Yukon.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-22-2005, 08:13 PM
After driving an exped for a year as a daily driver, I picked up a high mileage accord. My assessment was the exact opposite, i.e., I'll never not own a car again.
They will serve their purpose in my house another way. Perhaps when I make more parking spaces and a few more garages. And it will come along with a 6 speed manual tranny and 505HP under the hood(for recreational driving, not commute) and has to be wearing a Bowtie...:D
If you drove on these Tollways daily, you know what I am talking about.
I also had somewhat of an issue getting into imports, but I gave it a shot.:o

Leroy
12-26-2005, 11:28 AM
I like the JC's, but can see your struggle to get there. Really thought from beginning you would end up with an Audi or Acura! Let us know how you like it after driving for awhile. Also did the dealer/show room impact your decision?2005 or '06
Something a little larger, and maybe AWD.
NO SUV's
Keep it under $30,000.
Something with a little more impact protection, but still get about or close to 30MPG HWY.

Oh, yea, got the Grand Cherokee. It was a long drawn out battle let me tell you. I went back and forth so many times trying to talk myself into a car of any sort, even nice ones. I drove them all and price war'd myself to death. From Ford, Volvo, Audi, Acura, Subaru, and Dodge (did I miss any).
I just couldn't do it. I am not into cars (that I have to drive everyday) none of them did much for me. Now the GC is nothing to brag about, don't get me wrong. But I don't get that cooped up feeling in it.
And the SUVs out there, well, thats a whole different story..... Looked at them too before I thought I wanted a car.
I tried, I really did......

Workin' 4 Toys
12-26-2005, 02:54 PM
Decision was not made by the dealer. Although it is the first dealer I was at, there is a sign in the middle of the showroom, written in huge red letters, if you are not completely satisfied with sales or service, contact me and I will be sure to assist you personally. And that was the owner of the dealership. And I believe it included name and phone number(I am not 100% sure) I just thought that was cool, but had no effect on the purchase.

You were almost right on with the A4. If I HAD to pick a car, I think that might be it. Although the Subi, Volvo, Magnum, and 500 where not out of the question if I gave them more time. I am assuming that, since I still have yet to find a dealer with an '06 A4 2.0T manual, but still, at $39K what else could I get.... It seems you get more for your money with the others, I guess I just liked the looks of the A4 more than the rest. Then again......Ahhhh, I can't get into that again...

Now that I think about it, I guess there were a few dealers I would NOT buy from because of they way they treated the customer.

Oh, and it appears Audi sort of keeps track of who shops for what where. I found it odd a dealer 40 miles away, knew what I was shopping for at another dealer. And they were not even under the same ownership.....:confused: Does this sound familiar....

Workin' 4 Toys
12-26-2005, 03:00 PM
?2005 or '06
Something a little larger, and maybe AWD.
NO SUV's
Keep it under $30,000.
Something with a little more impact protection, but still get about or close to 30MPG HWY.

I guess the only thing that fit the bill here is the "a little larger" and "AWD".....;) Oh, well... Maybe the P'Stroke will need replacement next and I get to do this all over again.......Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

Leroy
01-29-2006, 07:45 PM
Was a fun process and good to go through with you! I think it will be many years before I'm buying again, except for another beater for 15yr old son shortly.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-29-2006, 10:41 PM
Was a fun process and good to go through with you! I think it will be many years before I'm buying again, except for another beater for 15yr old son shortly.Wow, you dug this out of the dirt...;) It was an unusal ride for me.
I can only hope I can talk my wife into going to the Chicago-Auto-Show and get her in an '07 GMC. Of course she still LOVES the '04 shes in now. I keep showing her the "HOURMETER" it has, and tell her times almost up...:D

erkoehler
01-29-2006, 10:46 PM
Wow, you dug this out of the dirt...;) It was an unusal ride for me.
I can only hope I can talk my wife into going to the Chicago-Auto-Show and get her in an '07 GMC. Of course she still LOVES the '04 shes in now. I keep showing her the "HOURMETER" it has, and tell her times almost up...:D


How many hours vs. miles does it have?