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M-Funf
11-14-2005, 07:17 PM
So, based on the responses I got from the SF handgun ban thread, I'm guessing that there are some enthusiasts here who might be able to help me out.

My wifes birthday is coming up, and in addition to a more mainstream birthday gift, she would also like to exersize her second amendment rights (before they're taken away) and get a handgun.

So, we went shooting with my cousin and her husband last week, and she fired a .45ACP Colt (officers), and a Ruger .44 single action revolver, as well as a 9mm, 380 auto, and a .357 revolver. She preferred the autos to the revolvers, and actually preferred the larger caliber autos. She has small hands, but liked the "heft" of the .45, and the extra weight helped with kickback from the .45.

A coworker has a Sig Sauer P220 .45ACP that he will sell to us. It's had less than one clip of ammunition through the clip. I've heard they are good, if not great, and wonder if anybody here has one, or has opinions about them. I know they sell new for $840 ('05 price list), but wondering what an "almost" new one would sell for.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated...

:toast:

PendO
11-14-2005, 07:31 PM
http://remtek.com/arms/sig/model/220/220.htm ... never shot that particular gun in a .45 ... do you have a .45 already (wanting to keep the same caliber for her would make sense so as to not have a bunch of different calibers of ammo) ... personally I like the .40 cal and would stick to the synthetic ... also, I think you can put a few more rounds into a .40 clip than a .45 clip (ICBW?). But ... if she is comfortable then that is what matters most ... are you going to put some laser sights for ... "ease of use"

edit - I like the synthetic b/c I don't have to clean it as much ... for looks, the Sig's are sweet, can't comment on preformance as I do not have one ... you mentioned in your post it was an "officers" does it have the hi-cap mags?

BrianM
11-14-2005, 07:35 PM
I have a 9mm Sig 229 and it is an amazing weapon. Only thing I wish now is that I would have bought the .40 cal. They(Sigs) really are the Cadillac of handguns. Don't know what that particular gun is worth though.

tommcat
11-14-2005, 07:46 PM
i like all sigs and have carried a couple over the years.
one thing to note is that although she may like shooting an auto they are not the best choice for personal defense for the simple reason that they are not simple. unless she trains regularly and is very familiar with malfunctions and how to remedy them under pressure she shouldnt stake her life on one.
i have seen so many malfunctions in competition that completely screwed up the shooter it's unreal. and these are all very competent shooters.
almost nothing can go wrong with a revolver. i carry one on occasion when concealment of my glock is just too hard. S&W airweight .357

M-Funf
11-14-2005, 07:50 PM
... are you going to put some laser sights for ... "ease of use"

edit - I like the synthetic b/c I don't have to clean it as much ... for looks, the Sig's are sweet, can't comment on preformance as I do not have one ... you mentioned in your post it was an "officers" does it have the hi-cap mags?

I don't think we'll need laser sites on this one. For "ease of use" I've got a 12 ga pump...

The "officers" model was the Colt that she used last week. It belongs to my cousin...and she's not parting with it...It did not have a hi-cap mag.

I'm still looking around. She did pick up a couple of 9mm's last weekend, but they had staggered stack magazines, which made the grips very wide. Too wide for her small hands. Hopefully I can get the Sig in her hand soon so she can see if it fits well.

Cleaning should not be an issue. I actually want her to clean it often to get comfortable with cleaning it, and take-down/assembly...

Brian, I looked at the P226. One nice feature of the P226, is that if you get the .357, you can also insert a .40 S&W barrel...like having two for the price of one...

M-Funf
11-14-2005, 07:52 PM
they are not the best choice for personal defense for the simple reason that they are not simple. unless she trains regularly and is very familiar with malfunctions and how to remedy them under pressure she shouldnt stake her life on one.

I agree with you on this. Hence the 12ga... :rolleyes:

stevo137
11-14-2005, 07:54 PM
I believe that the Sig 229 9mm is a prefered weapon for air marshalls.
Very highly trained individuals...

tommcat
11-14-2005, 08:12 PM
I agree with you on this. Hence the 12ga... :rolleyes:
always a good choice :D
i'm carrying a glock 23 in .40 these days, love that one but i did like my sig a lot too. cant go wrong with any of their products.
my buddy is a big wig over at S&W, they just came out with a new auto to be direct competition for glock. it's really nice, try to look into one before you make a decision. my glock may be getting replaced with one soon.

Cary K.
11-14-2005, 08:44 PM
Anybody carrying the HK USP .40? My brother swears by his. My father has a couple of Sig's, but don't remember which models. The Sig or the HK will most likely be my next gun purchase (if I ever decide I need another). I keep a Walther PPK/S .380 accessible. I also have a Colt .45 Combat Commander, and an old Walther P38 9mm.

edwin
11-14-2005, 10:06 PM
i like all sigs and have carried a couple over the years.
one thing to note is that although she may like shooting an auto they are not the best choice for personal defense for the simple reason that they are not simple. unless she trains regularly and is very familiar with malfunctions and how to remedy them under pressure she shouldnt stake her life on one.
i have seen so many malfunctions in competition that completely screwed up the shooter it's unreal. and these are all very competent shooters.
almost nothing can go wrong with a revolver. i carry one on occasion when concealment of my glock is just too hard. S&W airweight .357


What he said...

I've had a couple Sigs over the years, a 220 and a 229. Both were great guns. I've since swapped the Sigs for a Kimber Custom Carry with night sites for home protection. As tommcat mentioned, look at the small S&W's for carry purposes. I have a 340PD Airlight .357 that's my carry gun, the wife has the same gun but with an aluminum frame that shoots .38 +P. Neither of the small guys are much fun to shoot at the range, but there's nothing more simple that aim and squeeze.

PendO
11-14-2005, 10:14 PM
What he said...

I've had a couple Sigs over the years, a 220 and a 229. Both were great guns. I've since swapped the Sigs for a Kimber Custom Carry with night sites for home protection. As tommcat mentioned, look at the small S&W's for carry purposes. I have a 340PD Airlight .357 that's my carry gun, the wife has the same gun but with an aluminum frame that shoots .38 +P. Neither of the small guys are much fun to shoot at the range, but there's nothing more simple that aim and squeeze.

tritium night sights? Also, I do like the glock's for the safety mechanism (http://www.glock.com/_safe_action_.htm) ... when I grab it at night I just want to "use it" if need be and not wonder if the safety is activated.

bigmac
11-14-2005, 10:25 PM
Sig makes a superior handgun. I would classify them as at least "great". Beretta and Glock are good too, but not at the same level. Colt in .45? Not even in the same league - forget it unless you want it custom built

I've had a P229 in .40 cal for several years. It is vastly superior to my Beretta .40 in every respect. There isn't ONE area where I have found the Beretta to be superior. Likewise the Glock .40, although I have less experience with that weapon. It's used by the Sheriff's Dept so I have to qualify with it annually.

The Sig is the first semi-auto pistol I've ever owned where I didn't have to do ANYTHING to it to make it shoot well. Feed ramps, sear, port, ejector - a myriad of things I've always had to do to other weapons to make them reliable and accurate. Not this P229.

I can't tell you about the P220, though. I have no doubt it's a superior pistol, but I've never been a big fan of .45. I have a couple of old Series 80 Govt. Models - lots of muzzle flash and lots of barrel lift. .40 cal is the way to go, particularly for someone with small hands who is not going to be shooting it regularly.
http://mccollister.info/p229.jpg

bigmac
11-14-2005, 10:30 PM
tritium night sights? Also, I do like the glock's for the safety mechanism (http://www.glock.com/_safe_action_.htm) ... when I grab it at night I just want to "use it" if need be and not wonder if the safety is activated.

Glocks have the highest rate of "accidental discharge" of any pistol out there. To the extent that several law enforcement agencies have banned Glocks because of that higher risk of "locker room discharge". It was such a problem in the NYPD that they required the so-called "New York trigger" before Glocks could be used by that agency - basically a 13 lb trigger pull.

There is no safety on the P229 - grab it and shoot it.

PendO
11-14-2005, 10:42 PM
Glocks have the highest rate of "accidental discharge" of any pistol out there. To the extent that several law enforcement agencies have banned Glocks because of that higher risk of "locker room discharge". It was such a problem in the NYPD that they required the so-called "New York trigger" before Glocks could be used by that agency - basically a 13 lb trigger pull.

There is no safety on the P229 - grab it and shoot it.

BigMac, that's interesting ... now I have more reading to do online:) Sounds like those of you who have Sig's realy like them ... crazy the info you come up with when you search "glock accidental discharge" ... I've never had it happen, guess I will continue to only put my finger on the trigger when I intend to pull it:) If it is purely a "light" trigger pull issue one would assume that people are as careless with other arms, but they "straddle the fence better" ... I will be more carefull when I stop and talk to cops now on:)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police4page1.htm

excerpt: "D.C. police officials repeatedly studied the phenomenon of accidental discharges, invariably concluding that there was no fundamental problem with the Glock itself as long as users were properly trained. Officials chose not to modify the Glock trigger, as New York City police did in 1990, to require a more forceful tug to fire the gun. In 1994, D.C. police recorded more accidental discharges than the Chicago or Los Angeles forces, two far bigger departments, according to discharge records from the departments. Last year, the accident rate for D.C. police was 50 percent greater than that of New York police." (Thanks for the heads up BigMac)

bigmac
11-14-2005, 11:08 PM
Brian, I looked at the P226. One nice feature of the P226, is that if you get the .357, you can also insert a .40 S&W barrel...like having two for the price of one...

The .357 Sig is a slightly longer .40 SW cal case that is necked-down for a .355 diameter bullet. Because of the case diameter, it will fit in a .40 cal magazine. Drop in the .357 Sig barrel and you're good to go, although it's not completely clear what the .357 Sig is good for. It has interesting ballistics, and the FBI, Marshal's Service and Secret Service keep looking at it on-an-off as their choice of weapon and have been doing that dance since 1994 when the round was invented. Note the the .357 Sig is completely different that the standard .357 magnum.

PendO
11-14-2005, 11:19 PM
The .357 Sig is a slightly longer .40 SW cal case that is necked-down for a .355 diameter bullet. Because of the case diameter, it will fit in a .40 cal magazine. Drop in the .357 Sig barrel and you're good to go, although it's not completely clear what the .357 Sig is good for. It has interesting ballistics, and the FBI, Marshal's Service and Secret Service keep looking at it on-an-off as their choice of weapon and have been doing that dance since 1994 when the round was invented. Note the the .357 Sig is completely different that the standard .357 magnum.

only b/c it peaked my interest:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

.357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

Several readers have contacted us to ask for our opinion of the .357 SIG cartridge, and its effectiveness for personal defense use, particularly when loaded with a 125-grain JHP bullet. Our usual response is that it demonstrates adequate performance, meaning that the bullets are capable of penetrating deeply enough to potentially inflict an effective wound. But it doesn't seem to perform any better than current 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP bullets in terms of penetration and expansion.

We feel .357 SIG appeals to people who are preoccupied with velocity and kinetic energy more than with producing effective wound trauma.

The velocity of the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet doesn't appear to make it superior in penetrating automotive sheet metal, windshield glass or other hard barrier materials than existing 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP JHP bullets. In fact, .357 SIG demonstrates virtually identical performance characteristics as the other cartridges when fired through hard barrier materials.

To ensure JHP bullets wouldn't over-expand and fragment when propelled at .357 SIG velocities, most bullet manufacturers couldn't simply take existing 9mm 124-grain JHP bullets, install them in .357 SIG cases and pronounce the result as ".357 SIG 125-grain JHP," because this would be a step backwards.

Existing 9mm 124-grain bullets, designed for nominal 9mm velocities, would over-expand, fragment and under-penetrate. Essentially, they'd be re-inventing the 9mm 115-grain JHP +P+ cartridge. Therefore, the ammo companies had to design sturdier JHP bullets specifically for the .357 SIG; ones that wouldn't over-expand and fragment in bare gelatin.

They succeeded in designing such bullets, but the bullets appear to be so resistant to over-expansion that they under-expand when passing through clothing. As a result, in shootings involving clothed people (the most common scenario), the .357 SIG 125-grain JHP bullet will more than likely over-penetrate and exit the body.
In a strict wound ballistics sense, over-penetration is better than under-penetration because the bullet will at least have the potential to intersect and bore through vital cardiovascular structures. But over-penetration is also a waste of wounding potential.

In comparison, many 9mm 147-grain subsonic JHP bullets demonstrate better penetration and expansion performance than .357 SIG 125-grain JHPs.

Perhaps in the future the ammo companies will be able to develop better 125-grain bullets for the .357 SIG. But until this happens we feel .357 SIG is a solution to a non-problem.

Feel the need for speed? You'd be better armed with a standard velocity (1100-1150 fps) .40 S&W 165-grain JHP.


***Quoted from the link above

stevo137
11-14-2005, 11:21 PM
Mac, you amaze me man...

Lottawatta
11-15-2005, 07:16 AM
So, based on the responses I got from the SF handgun ban thread, I'm guessing that there are some enthusiasts here who might be able to help me out.

My wifes birthday is coming up, and in addition to a more mainstream birthday gift, she would also like to exersize her second amendment rights (before they're taken away) and get a handgun.

So, we went shooting with my cousin and her husband last week, and she fired a .45ACP Colt (officers), and a Ruger .44 single action revolver, as well as a 9mm, 380 auto, and a .357 revolver. She preferred the autos to the revolvers, and actually preferred the larger caliber autos. She has small hands, but liked the "heft" of the .45, and the extra weight helped with kickback from the .45.

A coworker has a Sig Sauer P220 .45ACP that he will sell to us. It's had less than one clip of ammunition through the clip. I've heard they are good, if not great, and wonder if anybody here has one, or has opinions about them. I know they sell new for $840 ('05 price list), but wondering what an "almost" new one would sell for.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated...

:toast:
This site may give you an idea of market value of a slightly used piece:
http://www.gunbroker.com/
or this site:
http://www.auctionarms.com/

Useful Info on various models:
http://www.handgunreview.com/

You can't beat a Kimber for accuracy, but I can't say anything bad about the sig either.
:twocents:

tommcat
11-15-2005, 07:44 AM
Glocks have the highest rate of "accidental discharge" of any pistol out there. To the extent that several law enforcement agencies have banned Glocks because of that higher risk of "locker room discharge". It was such a problem in the NYPD that they required the so-called "New York trigger" before Glocks could be used by that agency - basically a 13 lb trigger pull.

There is no safety on the P229 - grab it and shoot it.one thing i'd like to point out here though is that the "accidental" firings are still caused by some idiot squeezing the trigger. if someone needs a different weapon to prevent this then they shouldnt be carrying one at all.
there is no way for my glock to ever fire unless i make it happen, and i can assure you that my finger doesnt go near the trigger unless i'm ready to shoot at something.......or someone.

bigmac
11-15-2005, 07:50 AM
one thing i'd like to point out here though is that the "accidental" firings are still caused by some idiot squeezing the trigger. if someone needs a different weapon to prevent this then they shouldnt be carrying one at all.
there is no way for my glock to ever fire unless i make it happen, and i can assure you that my finger doesnt go near the trigger unless i'm ready to shoot at something.......or someone.

Yep, no question that the training issue is a big component. That was well-demonstated by the difference in Glock AD rates between the Chicago and Washington DC police departments compared to the LAPD, for example.

M-Funf
11-15-2005, 12:02 PM
Training is one of the reasons I don't believe the auto to be good for home defense as well. I doubt she has the inclination to spend that kind of time at the range, as well as going to self defense courses to learn how to control fear, etc.

Thanks for all the input! As it turns out, the guy decided that he may want to keep his Sig P220, so I'm on the hunt again. I will still consider Sig, but probably a P226 in 9mm, or the P229...I'll also be looking at HK as well as others mentioned above..

:D

jmyers
11-15-2005, 12:48 PM
Training is one of the reasons I don't believe the auto to be good for home defense as well. I doubt she has the inclination to spend that kind of time at the range, as well as going to self defense courses to learn how to control fear, etc.

Thanks for all the input! As it turns out, the guy decided that he may want to keep his Sig P220, so I'm on the hunt again. I will still consider Sig, but probably a P226 in 9mm, or the P229...I'll also be looking at HK as well as others mentioned above..

:D
I have only one handgun and it is the Ruger P89 9mm. It seems to be just fine for an arounfd the house handgun! :uglyhamme Most of my guns are shotguns for hunting, but I wanted at least one I could have for a little protection and for those road trips in the middle of nowhere!! It's not as light weight or as small as some but I like it!! :D

bigmac
11-15-2005, 12:51 PM
Training is one of the reasons I don't believe the auto to be good for home defense as well. I doubt she has the inclination to spend that kind of time at the range, as well as going to self defense courses to learn how to control fear, etc.

Thanks for all the input! As it turns out, the guy decided that he may want to keep his Sig P220, so I'm on the hunt again. I will still consider Sig, but probably a P226 in 9mm, or the P229...I'll also be looking at HK as well as others mentioned above..

:D

No offense meant by this, but I have grave concerns about a firearm, especially a pistol (revolver or auto) in the hands of anyone who wouldn't want to go to self-defense courses or spend time at the range familiarizing themselves with the weapon. Purchasing a weapon for self-defense imposes a HUGE responsibility - literally the responsibility of life and death. People who don't take that seriously enough scare the $h!t out of me...

Seriously, if she's not willing to do self defense courses that involve learning to control fear nor willing to spend time at the range to become proficient, then I absolutely WOULD NOT get her a weapon nor let her have access to one. As I mentioned previously, it is statistically more likely that a self-defense gun owner is more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder. That probably makes YOU the most likely person to get shot in your home by an untrained, unfamiliar wife with a handgun.

If you are bent on doing this, I strongly recommend getting the book "In the Gravest Extreme (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936279001/103-6542032-7021413?v=glance)" by Massad Ayoob. It's cheap, but it contains information that ANYONE who owns a firearm should know.

:twocents:

M-Funf
11-15-2005, 01:17 PM
No offense meant by this, but I have grave concerns about a firearm, especially a pistol (revolver or auto) in the hands of anyone who wouldn't want to go to self-defense courses or spend time at the range familiarizing themselves with the weapon. Purchasing a weapon for self-defense imposes a HUGE responsibility - literally the responsibility of life and death. People who don't take that seriously enough scare the $h!t out of me...

Seriously, if she's not willing to do self defense courses that involve learning to control fear nor willing to spend time at the range to become proficient, then I absolutely WOULD NOT get her a weapon nor let her have access to one. As I mentioned previously, it is statistically more likely that a self-defense gun owner is more likely to shoot a family member than an intruder. That probably makes YOU the most likely person to get shot in your home by an untrained, unfamiliar wife with a handgun.

If you are bent on doing this, I strongly recommend getting the book "In the Gravest Extreme (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936279001/103-6542032-7021413?v=glance)" by Massad Ayoob. It's cheap, but it contains information that ANYONE who owns a firearm should know.

:twocents:

All good points. I have discussed it with her, and she wants to go through the gun safety training program, but I'm not sure how much time she will want to spend at the range. My cousin will probably want to get her to go more often, as she is often the only woman at the range when she goes...she'd like someone (other than her husband) to go with.

All that said, there are already guns in the house, and she has used them in the past (at the range and outdoors) so I believe that this is a step in the right direction. Fortunately, I shoot regularly, and the range is very close to home, so she would not have many excuses not to go...

I'm not suggesting she wouldn't have any training. Quite the opposite. She has already committed to training, has met the instructor, and he has suggested courses for her to take, which she has agreed to.

At first, she thought the cost of the handgun was all there was to it. Then, after looking into it, she realized that there are several other "costs" associated with ownership (training, ammunition, cleaning supplies, storage/locking supplies, etc., etc.)

Workin' 4 Toys
11-24-2005, 10:43 PM
Well, you got me in the mood. I went a shopped to get myself a new one for myself for Thanksgiving. I know what I want, and instead of starting this info all over again, Ill just add to it. After checking on about everything mentioned on this thread, I have come up with my next piece.

I am getting the Beretta 92FS Vertec Inox. What does anyone know about it and what do you like and dislike?

tex
11-24-2005, 10:59 PM
The Kurt theory of shopping for a gun...Which one fits in you mouth the best? Dark...

Workin' 4 Toys
11-24-2005, 11:00 PM
The Kurt theory of shopping for a gun...Which one fits in you mouth the best? Dark...
Either I had too much to drink, or I just don't get it. Explain?

tex
11-24-2005, 11:02 PM
Nirvana!!!!

Workin' 4 Toys
11-24-2005, 11:04 PM
Cobain, wow, that went right over my head.......but through his...oh, that got ugly. Back to drinkin'

tex
11-24-2005, 11:08 PM
i just poured a fresh glass. i went skiing at lake LBJ this summer and read the Kurt biography. It was very dark but good. It is hard to read when you know the ending! sorry for the jack...

bigmac
11-25-2005, 12:06 AM
Well, you got me in the mood. I went a shopped to get myself a new one for myself for Thanksgiving. I know what I want, and instead of starting this info all over again, Ill just add to it. After checking on about everything mentioned on this thread, I have come up with my next piece.

I am getting the Beretta 92FS Vertec Inox. What does anyone know about it and what do you like and dislike?
I have an older model 96 (blue steel) in .40 and I used to have an older 92FS (not Vertec). It is a beautiful piece of machine work, but I like the Sig P229 better for a few reasons....


the Beretta is kind a a club compared to the compact and sleek nature of the Sig
The Sig is lighter
The P229 was designed from the ground up as a .40 cal
I don't care for pistols with a safety, and I especially don't care for the location of the safety on the 92FS. I have smaller hands and it's awkward, and it's one more thing to worry about
I've had numerous failures to feed. It's not the feed ramp, it's the tolerances on the chamber are too tight IMHO. Granted, this was with remanufactured training ammo , but failures to feed..even so...
The 92FS in .40 cal has a past history of slide failure. Granted, the locking blocks have been redesigned since those days, and the military no longer necessarily recommends frequent slide replacement, but even so...I recall chatting about it a few years ago with a Navy SEAL who had his jaw broken by such a failure. Navy SEALs tend to use Sigs or HKs now..
The single action trigger pull on the Beretta (mine anyway) has some creep, and the double action pull ratchets a little. The Sig has a nice crisp SA pull, and the DA pull is smooth and even
The price of the 92FS Vertec Inox and the Sig are the same


:twocents:

sizzler
11-25-2005, 03:59 AM
if we were allowed them...i would never buy my wife one.....i know who she wud try it out on :rolleyes:

Cloaked
11-25-2005, 04:24 AM
...i would never buy my wife one.....i know who she wud try it out on :rolleyes:Ya' think? :D

bigmac
11-25-2005, 11:36 AM
I have an older model 96 (blue steel) in .40 and I used to have an older 92FS (not Vertec). It is a beautiful piece of machine work, but I like the Sig P229 better for a few reasons....


the Beretta is kind a a club compared to the compact and sleek nature of the Sig
The Sig is lighter
The P229 was designed from the ground up as a .40 cal
I don't care for pistols with a safety, and I especially don't care for the location of the safety on the 92FS. I have smaller hands and it's awkward, and it's one more thing to worry about
I've had numerous failures to feed. It's not the feed ramp, it's the tolerances on the chamber are too tight IMHO. Granted, this was with remanufactured training ammo , but failures to feed..even so...
The 92FS in .40 cal has a past history of slide failure. Granted, the locking blocks have been redesigned since those days, and the military no longer necessarily recommends frequent slide replacement, but even so...I recall chatting about it a few years ago with a Navy SEAL who had his jaw broken by such a failure. Navy SEALs tend to use Sigs or HKs now..
The single action trigger pull on the Beretta (mine anyway) has some creep, and the double action pull ratchets a little. The Sig has a nice crisp SA pull, and the DA pull is smooth and even
The price of the 92FS Vertec Inox and the Sig are the same


:twocents:

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_SIG,,00.html

Workin' 4 Toys
11-25-2005, 02:25 PM
Thanks for the feedback on it.
It's funny to me that it is an Italian company, but these models in particular can state "Made in USA". I am not sure of the logistics behind the "made" vs. company ownership. But whatever.
I was looking more for info on the particular model I am getting more than a comparo of the Sig or any other.
I drove the guy nuts the other day with all of them I was looking at. Glock, Beretta, Colt, Sig, S&W. (Oh, I took out the 500 out of the case, nice, but they don't allow them at the range anyway, not that my wife would shoot it with me! It would sit on the rack just like the 454 and never be taken out except for cleaning.)

bigmac
11-25-2005, 03:01 PM
Thanks for the feedback on it.
It's funny to me that it is an Italian company, but these models in particular can state "Made in USA". I am not sure of the logistics behind the "made" vs. company ownership. But whatever.
I was looking more for info on the particular model I am getting more than a comparo of the Sig or any other.
I drove the guy nuts the other day with all of them I was looking at. Glock, Beretta, Colt, Sig, S&W. (Oh, I took out the 500 out of the case, nice, but they don't allow them at the range anyway, not that my wife would shoot it with me! It would sit on the rack just like the 454 and never be taken out except for cleaning.)

The 92FS Vertecs (all Vertecs AFAIK) and all 96's are manufactured by Beretta USA in their plant in Accocreek (sp?), Maryland. Rumor has it that the Italian-manufactured pistols have a nicer finish while the USA-manufactured pistols have tighter tolerances. I have no idea if that's true or not.

Sorry, couldn't avoid the comparison to Sig and I can't address the Vertec specifically. As I mentioned, I have that pistol form-factor (92FS) and don't care for it, particularly..or at least I should say that after a couple of years of putting thousands of rounds/year through it, my experience led me to look for something better - size, weight, carry-ability in a tac vest, concealability were things about the Beretta I didn't like in particular. Same appears to be true of the US military and virtually all Federal law enforcement agencies. I don't know anyone that has shot any of the Vertecs. Most of the police agencies around here use Berettas, except for the Sheriff's Dept (I work/train/shoot with the TAC Team) and they use Glocks.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-25-2005, 03:15 PM
I never intend to use it at that capacity. Mearly the occasional trip to the range, and on the unlikely perp.

My new sign... This home is protected by the "Beretta" home defense system. Nevermind the dog, Beware of owner!

Laying them all on the table, the fit and finish of all I looked at, the one I am getting is the nicest IMO. And the two "pistol" guys I brought agreed. Of course they are revolver fans, so what do they know.

tommcat
11-25-2005, 05:24 PM
Thanks for the feedback on it.
It's funny to me that it is an Italian company, but these models in particular can state "Made in USA". I am not sure of the logistics behind the "made" vs. company ownership. But whatever.
I was looking more for info on the particular model I am getting more than a comparo of the Sig or any other.
I drove the guy nuts the other day with all of them I was looking at. Glock, Beretta, Colt, Sig, S&W. (Oh, I took out the 500 out of the case, nice, but they don't allow them at the range anyway, not that my wife would shoot it with me! It would sit on the rack just like the 454 and never be taken out except for cleaning.)
the .500 is awesome, i've been shooting the 4 inch barrel version. check out the .460 XVR sometime. 2 of the test shooters here lost fillings when they shot it with their mouths open :eek:
did you look into the new S&W polymer pistol? it's sweet

bigmac
11-25-2005, 07:04 PM
Laying them all on the table, the fit and finish of all I looked at, the one I am getting is the nicest IMO. And the two "pistol" guys I brought agreed. Of course they are revolver fans, so what do they know.

No question, Beretta makes a very pretty gun :D It is indeed an excellent choice if we're assigning importance to the cosmetics.

Workin' 4 Toys
11-25-2005, 11:57 PM
No question, Beretta makes a very pretty gun :D It is indeed an excellent choice if we're assigning importance to the cosmetics.
Well, if I were to pick up 5 for myself, the sig one be one of them. Perhaps I will need another for Christmas. Although, I have been thinking my next will be an AK.

bigmac
11-26-2005, 01:35 AM
Well, if I were to pick up 5 for myself, the sig one be one of them. Perhaps I will need another for Christmas. Although, I have been thinking my next will be an AK.

I know what you mean about the cosmetics, though...I get a lot of pressure to use a Glock, but I just can't bring myself to do it. No doubt it's a highly functional weapon, and the SO has 3 guys who are Glock-certified armorers. And I'm always at a disadvantage for qualification because the pop-up range we use at the local military base is programmed around 17 round magazines. Even so...I resist because I find that particular pistol, uh...unattractive...

http://www.pbase.com/hmac/image/40011648.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/hmac/image/40011647.jpg

Workin' 4 Toys
11-26-2005, 10:00 AM
Wasn't glock know as the "plastic" gun, because of its concealment features?

6ballsisall
11-26-2005, 10:22 AM
Havent read but the 1st page of posts here but personally I really like Sigs, they are great pieces. I'd ditch the 9mm if it's for personal protection however they are cheap to shoot (cost of ammo) get something with a little more meat if she feels comfortable with it. That 45 will drop someone dead in their tracks and leaves one heckuva nasty hole. :cool:

bigmac
11-26-2005, 11:06 AM
Wasn't glock know as the "plastic" gun, because of its concealment features?

That whole "plastic gun" crap was just another great example of news media fear-mongering. They worked hard to try to convince everyone that a pistol with a plastic frame wouldn't show up on baggage scanners, metal detectors, or airport xray equipment. Ridiculous, of course. Glocks are about 80% steel. Portions of the frame are some kind of super-secret hybrid polymer based on Nylon 6, but the majority of the the pistol (slide and barrel) is cast steel.

The whole Glock concept has never appealed to me. I would have thought that a polymer frame with various steel inserts would flex too much, wear too fast, break too often and be environmentally vulnerable. That hasn't turned out to be the case...it's been a reliable weapon with good accuracy (for a combat-style pistol). The only real problem I've seen with the plastic-pistol concept is that the magazines are also plastic and with a few rounds in them, they tend to bulge enough that the magazine won't eject from the grip reliably. More of a problem with some of the cheaper aftermarket magazines than Glock OEMs, I guess.

bigmac
11-26-2005, 11:33 AM
Havent read but the 1st page of posts here but personally I really like Sigs, they are great pieces. I'd ditch the 9mm if it's for personal protection however they are cheap to shoot (cost of ammo) get something with a little more meat if she feels comfortable with it. That 45 will drop someone dead in their tracks and leaves one heckuva nasty hole. :cool:

The big problems with .45 ACP are muzzle lift, muzzle flash, and smoke. The muzzle lift is enough that return-to-target for the second shot can be problematic for less-than-experienced shooters. The muzzle flash is pronounced enough that it can blind you if you shoot it in the dark, and the smoke is problematic at night because after the first shot, all your flashlight is illuminating is the cloud of smoke that surrounds you.

The .40 caliber was developed from the 10mm round that the FBI spec'd after that shootout in Miami in 1986 where they put something like thirty 9mm rounds into a couple of suspects who even so were able to continue to function long enough to kill a couple of agents. That was the death of the 9mm round in law enforcement. The .45 and the 10mm had controllability and muzzle flash issues, so S&W loaded the 10mm into a shorter case and now the .40 S&W is wildly popular. Ballistically similar to the .45 without the other drawbacks.

bigmac
12-02-2005, 10:32 PM
Well, you got me in the mood. I went a shopped to get myself a new one for myself for Thanksgiving. I know what I want, and instead of starting this info all over again, Ill just add to it. After checking on about everything mentioned on this thread, I have come up with my next piece.

I am getting the Beretta 92FS Vertec Inox. What does anyone know about it and what do you like and dislike?

Hold everything WFT...maybe you can still take that Beretta back....THIS is your pistol... $640!! Put an AimPoint on her and slap in a 30 round mag and your home will be safe as it can be. From intruders, anyway... ;)

http://kel-tec.com/plr16pr.htm

http://kel-tec.com/images/plr_forend_sling_scope_wt.jpg

Workin' 4 Toys
12-03-2005, 02:28 AM
As soon as the Beretta comes in (had to order it) I'll look one of those up to add to my collection. I have another already in mind though.

bstrom-tt
12-05-2005, 02:36 PM
I'd like to thank everyone for all the good information that has been posted, especially bigmac. My question: What is the best way to have a hand gun in the home for protection, available for use easily, but still have it safe from children. I want to add that I'm going to do some research at the local gun shops, but thought you guys could possibly get me started in the right direction.

Thanks.

bigmac
12-05-2005, 03:36 PM
I'd like to thank everyone for all the good information that has been posted, especially bigmac. My question: What is the best way to have a hand gun in the home for protection, available for use easily, but still have it safe from children. I want to add that I'm going to do some research at the local gun shops, but thought you guys could possibly get me started in the right direction.

Thanks.

Something like this (http://www.safetysafeguards.com/site/402168/product/33018) I think. Should give quick access but keep kids out. It's even approved by the state of Kalifornia, so it must be safe. ;)

The other (cheaper) option would be trigger and/or cable locks. (http://www.triggerlock.com/) . Many gun manufacturers (all?) supply some kind of lock with the pistol. One of the more common is the little combination-button one that Master sells. I see those at most hardware stores for around $10.00.

Don't forget to store the ammunition in a different location. Even with a trigger lock, many jurisdictions will find the gun owner liable for negligence (even criminal prosecution) if an unauthorized person (or child) gets hurt and the gun is stored loaded or with the ammunition in the same location.

Workin' 4 Toys
12-05-2005, 04:37 PM
Well it made it. Crimsontrace installed ready to go. Showed it to a few buddies, and I think I sold quite a few more of them already now.
Oh, and not to mention the streamlight, ready for blinding perps....

Next, comes the 6 shooter....

M-Funf
01-17-2006, 05:42 PM
Been a while since we started this thread, and we changed direction a bit after doing some research. Here's the latest.

Originally, this was to be a Birthday gift, but as we had more questions, it was clear that we didn't know which direction to go. So, one more trip to the gun shop with the wife, and the guy working there suggested that we take the Handgun Safety course given at the shop. We signed up. It's a one day course designed to get an owner familiar with laws, requirements, safety, and basic shooting.

The instructor was awesome! He has many years of instructing, and is very good at teaching. The class was 10 people, 6 women and 4 men. The first part of the day was all classroom work. About an hour into the lecture, the wife leans over to me and says: "I think we might have to buy two". I just nodded and smiled.

The second half of the day was on the range. He had brought his own handguns for the class, including a S&W model 60 .357 with a 3" barrel, a S&W Model 686 .357 with a 4" barrel, a Beretta 9mm auto, a Glock 40 (40 S&W) and a Colt .45 1911.

We were partnered with one other person (assigned by the instructor) and put into two groups. We alternated from one handgun to the next until we had about 10 rounds through each. Then, we each got to choose one and give it our best with 10 rounds.

Toward the end of the range session, I asked my wife what she liked the best, and it was still the 1911 .45 auto.

We spoke to the instructor earlier about personal protection, and he suggested a revolver since it can sit for quite some time without being used and still "perform". If it doesn't go "bang" the first time, just pull the trigger again...and again...

We took the Handgun Safety Certificate test and both passed. I missed two, she didn't miss any :o She signed up for a private two day basic personal protection course with the instructor, and she also signed up for a year membership at the range (unlimited use).

Since this took a while, I was able to do more research on semi-autos to see what we really wanted to purchase. But, after the realization that a semi was probably not the best home defense handgun, we had to think about revolvers as well, so I looked into that. I also asked the instructor what he had in his home. Guess what? the S&W 686.

We end up purchasing two handguns. The first is a Smith and Wesson model 686 .357 Magnum (not the plus "P" model) with 4" barrel in Stainless Steel. The second is a Kimber Custom TLE / RLII 1911 .45 ACP in black.

The 10 day waiting period is up next Tuesday, and she is ready to get out to the range...

Thanks for all the input on this subject. I'll report back some time later to let you know how the training is going.

:toast:

M-Funf
01-17-2006, 05:56 PM
bigmac,
Is that jrandol you're shooting at out there on the range???? :eek:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/pa529af57005bc6b0db9742b876f5115e/f0886bcc.jpg

MYMC
01-17-2006, 06:18 PM
H&K P7M8 (http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=045002)
Best concealed carry pistol on the market, IMHO.

JEREMY79
01-17-2006, 06:19 PM
Walther P99 chambered in .40

bigmac
01-17-2006, 06:26 PM
Been a while since we started this thread, and we changed direction a bit after doing some research. Here's the latest.

Originally, this was to be a Birthday gift, but as we had more questions, it was clear that we didn't know which direction to go. So, one more trip to the gun shop with the wife, and the guy working there suggested that we take the Handgun Safety course given at the shop. We signed up. It's a one day course designed to get an owner familiar with laws, requirements, safety, and basic shooting.

The instructor was awesome! He has many years of instructing, and is very good at teaching. The class was 10 people, 6 women and 4 men. The first part of the day was all classroom work. About an hour into the lecture, the wife leans over to me and says: "I think we might have to buy two". I just nodded and smiled.

The second half of the day was on the range. He had brought his own handguns for the class, including a S&W model 60 .357 with a 3" barrel, a S&W Model 686 .357 with a 4" barrel, a Beretta 9mm auto, a Glock 40 (40 S&W) and a Colt .45 1911.

We were partnered with one other person (assigned by the instructor) and put into two groups. We alternated from one handgun to the next until we had about 10 rounds through each. Then, we each got to choose one and give it our best with 10 rounds.

Toward the end of the range session, I asked my wife what she liked the best, and it was still the 1911 .45 auto.

We spoke to the instructor earlier about personal protection, and he suggested a revolver since it can sit for quite some time without being used and still "perform". If it doesn't go "bang" the first time, just pull the trigger again...and again...

We took the Handgun Safety Certificate test and both passed. I missed two, she didn't miss any :o She signed up for a private two day basic personal protection course with the instructor, and she also signed up for a year membership at the range (unlimited use).

Since this took a while, I was able to do more research on semi-autos to see what we really wanted to purchase. But, after the realization that a semi was probably not the best home defense handgun, we had to think about revolvers as well, so I looked into that. I also asked the instructor what he had in his home. Guess what? the S&W 686.

We end up purchasing two handguns. The first is a Smith and Wesson model 686 .357 Magnum (not the plus "P" model) with 4" barrel in Stainless Steel. The second is a Kimber Custom TLE / RLII 1911 .45 ACP in black.

The 10 day waiting period is up next Tuesday, and she is ready to get out to the range...

Thanks for all the input on this subject. I'll report back some time later to let you know how the training is going.

:toast:You've taken a responsible approach to a serious subject and made an informed decision... :toast:

Workin' 4 Toys
01-17-2006, 07:25 PM
Next, let us know how you intend to "store" them. I myself am shopping for another safe. Seems like there is not much of a difference between the $1000.00 and $2000.00 models. But you step it past the $2K you get 45 min at 1200 degrees instead of the 30min.

milkmania
01-17-2006, 07:42 PM
H&K P7M8 (http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=045002)
Best concealed carry pistol on the market, IMHO.

I think I'll check into this one a little more....http://hkp7.com/p7motion.htm

found one new in box......$1300.00:eek:

tommcat
01-18-2006, 07:23 AM
check out the new S&W pistol. the M+P, my buddy joe developed it. really nice piece, especially if you like glocks

Workin' 4 Toys
01-18-2006, 09:33 AM
By christmas this year, I hope to have at least one of every make and model in this thread, so I can make a fair comparison which I think is the "BEST" for what I intend to do with it.

MYMC
01-18-2006, 01:00 PM
I think I'll check into this one a little more....http://hkp7.com/p7motion.htm
I highly reccomend this pistol. It is designed for "point and shoot" type situations. Have you checked www.gunsamerica.com for pricing?

M-Funf
01-18-2006, 01:35 PM
You've taken a responsible approach to a serious subject and made an informed decision... :toast:

Thanks! After talking with my cousin, who is a certified handgun trainer, our instructor, and my brother-in-law, who is a small arms trainer for the US Navy in Virginia (small arms, according to the USN is everything from handguns up to the 50 caliber, including machine guns of all sizes. He trains on all of these), we got religion. ;)

Next, let us know how you intend to "store" them. I myself am shopping for another safe. Seems like there is not much of a difference between the $1000.00 and $2000.00 models. But you step it past the $2K you get 45 min at 1200 degrees instead of the 30min.

Until we are very comfortable with handling on both guns, they will be stored in our safe (we already had one for other stuff). Once we are comfortable, and after we both take the Self-Defense Handgun course, and have decided that we are ready to act in self-defense mentally, we will likely store the S&W in a gun vault similar to this one:

Gun Vault (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jsp?rid=&indexId=cat20799&navAction=push&navCount=1&cmCat=MainCatcat20712&parentType=index&parentId=cat20799&id=0005562)

At this point, we don't see the semi-auto as a self defense handgun, so it will remain locked up.