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payne04
12-23-2013, 11:45 AM
Have a 01 mastercraft 205v. Was wonder what battery's I would need or what to do with eletrical system for the upgraded stereo I put in.. I currently got 3 jl 300/4 slash amps and 1 500/1 ... Only have 2 battery's right now.. What do you recommend to do

mikeg205
12-23-2013, 11:49 AM
What's the output of your alternator?

payne04
12-23-2013, 01:29 PM
It's the stock one ...

supreme112279
12-23-2013, 03:46 PM
I have 2 optima yellow tops. One for the boat and one dedicated to the stereo. It's a large stereo and I haven't had any issues listening to the radio for hours.

MLA
12-23-2013, 04:01 PM
Have a 01 mastercraft 205v. Was wonder what battery's I would need or what to do with eletrical system for the upgraded stereo I put in.. I currently got 3 jl 300/4 slash amps and 1 500/1 ... Only have 2 battery's right now.. What do you recommend to do

Are they isolated by a dual-bank battery switch? Do you regularly spend time playing the system while at anchor? The length of time this is done, is going to drive your battery selection, mainly on the "house" side of the switch. For a primary cranking battery, you cant go wrong with a plan old group-24 lead acid marine cranking battery.

For a dedicated house battery, you need to decide what your needs are going to be in terms or amp hours.

payne04
12-23-2013, 05:25 PM
Do not sit and play at all... I have to 2 battery's and they are in switch it has 2 0r 1 or all... Not real sure how to set the battery's up like you guys are talking..(house and cranking battery)

rydog
12-23-2013, 06:28 PM
I actually was just curious about this subject. I have a 02 X-Star that will have a Syn4, Syn2, and 500 watt polk amp this next year. I currenty have 2 batteries hooked up to a perko switch so I save one for starting the boat and the other to run my audio at the sand bar. Should I upgrade to 3 batteries for this next summer? I ran 2 last summer with two Syn 4s, but now I will have the Syn4, Syn2, and polk 500 watt amp. My alternator is stock and I spend a decent amount of time at the sand bar.

MLA
12-23-2013, 06:52 PM
Do not sit and play at all... I have to 2 battery's and they are in switch it has 2 0r 1 or all... Not real sure how to set the battery's up like you guys are talking..(house and cranking battery)

If your switch is wired optimal, then its already set up that way. It would be up to you as the operator to designate which one is house and which one is primary cranking.

Based on the above info, I would go with 2 group-24 dual-purpose marine batteries.

MLA
12-23-2013, 06:58 PM
I actually was just curious about this subject. I have a 02 X-Star that will have a Syn4, Syn2, and 500 watt polk amp this next year. I currenty have 2 batteries hooked up to a perko switch so I save one for starting the boat and the other to run my audio at the sand bar. Should I upgrade to 3 batteries for this next summer? I ran 2 last summer with two Syn 4s, but now I will have the Syn4, Syn2, and polk 500 watt amp. My alternator is stock and I spend a decent amount of time at the sand bar.

Theres no yes or no answer. The need for more battery amp hours is dependent on how long you want to play and how hard you want to play. But, its always best for the batteries to have more batteries that are cycled shallower, then less batteries that are cycled deeper. If you regularly hang out at the party spot, then adding a 2nd house battery (more Ah's) could be a benefit. Then it may be time to think about some shore charging for that house bank and not rely on the alternator to recharge.

rydog
12-23-2013, 07:04 PM
Would adding a third battery be too taxing on the stock alternator? Also if the 1 battery would last for a couple hours that would be fine because then I run the boat a little to charge. Would 1 battery solely used for audio last that long with my set up, estimated of course.

MLA
12-23-2013, 07:28 PM
Would adding a third battery be too taxing on the stock alternator? Also if the 1 battery would last for a couple hours that would be fine because then I run the boat a little to charge. Would 1 battery solely used for audio last that long with my set up, estimated of course.

More battery Ah, in the form of either a larger battery or multiple batteries, will be additional load on the alternator, I wouldnt worry about it taxing the alternator. Alternators make for poor battery chargers, so they can struggle to recharge even a single dead battery. So the more battery Ah's you have and the deeper you run that battery bank down, will make you more dependent on some sort of shore charging.

Adding a 2nd house battery would basically double the play time. At the same time, it would meet your current play time goals while only running the bank down half of what it was with only a single battery. This is better for the batteries.

As long as the primary cranking is isolated from the house battery, no need to run engine while anchored, unless the house bank runs down to a point that the system starts to shut down. If you do this on a regular basis, then is time to consider more batteries so you dont need to run the engine (think CO fumes) and the system keeps going without interruption.

rydog
12-23-2013, 07:39 PM
Okay that makes sense. Now I would run the system until it dies and still have my starting battery but when I run the audio battery my boat eventually alarms out (because of the lowering voltage?) so I have to turn the boat on and charge. So I can't run my battery dead because the alarm will go off and I have to charge.

Thrall
12-24-2013, 11:32 AM
Do not sit and play at all... I have to 2 battery's and they are in switch it has 2 0r 1 or all... Not real sure how to set the battery's up like you guys are talking..(house and cranking battery)

With your setup and the fact that you don't spend the day in party cove, any decent pair of combo deep cycle/start batteries will work just fine.
If your setup works fine then I wouldn't worry about it and I'd leave the Perko switch pulling/ charging both batteries.
To run one dedicated for house one for start, isolate those loads to each battery directly preferably with some distribution blocks. At this point, the + to the starter will charge only the battery it's hooked to. Then link the 2 batteries with an ACR auto charging relay and the alt will charge both with the engine running but isolate them once the voltage supply drops below charging volts, 14+V.
This setup has worked well for me and its totally hands off. No switching required.
I installed a shore power charger as well though just to keep the batteries fully charged and maintained but it worked fine without it the first year.

bsloop
12-28-2013, 01:39 PM
Okay that makes sense. Now I would run the system until it dies and still have my starting battery but when I run the audio battery my boat eventually alarms out (because of the lowering voltage?) so I have to turn the boat on and charge. So I can't run my battery dead because the alarm will go off and I have to charge.

Yes, you need to add a second battery or more.
As MLA writes, deeply discharging a battery significantly reduces battery life so having more batteries that are depleted less will be cheaper in the long run. (assuming you properly maintain the batteries with a full charge from shore power at the end of the day)

If you are idling the boat just to play the stereo, this IS hard on the alternator since the alt is only putting out maybe half its rated amperage. Low output on top of a heavy draw from a depleted battery AND stereo draw is a recipe for alternator replacement.
Fuel cost idling a boat just to run the stereo will quickly mount to more than additional batteries.
Finally the safety factors of carbon monoxide poisoning or some drunk stumbling onto the throttle or jumping into the drivers seat should be considered.
(I have seen ALL of the above happen in the Cove)

rydog
12-29-2013, 05:40 PM
What's the most common shore charging set up people use on here?

supreme112279
12-29-2013, 07:00 PM
http://www.mrctechnologyinc.com/Pages/SlimChargerList.aspx

I don't know about common but this it what I use. 12 volt 10 amp version

Cloaked
12-29-2013, 07:12 PM
What's the most common shore charging set up people use on here?

http://www.mrctechnologyinc.com/Pages/SlimChargerList.aspx

I don't know about common but this it what I use. 12 volt 10 amp version
Not saying any one is better than another.

I used Battery Tender for several years until they stopped honoring their 10 year warranty on several of my tenders. After five (and a few) years, the tenders started failing, but no warranty support. Dealer (battery mart dot com << spit >> ) would not honor and Deltran (original manufacturer) wanted money to repair (even with warranty). Since I have ditched Battery Tender (good riddance) and have found a nice smart charger here

==> http://www.geniuschargers.com/shop I use the G1100 and it seems to work well while analyzing the battery. Amazon has them for a cheaper price than their retail price on the web site. http://www.amazon.com/NOCO-G1100-Battery-Charger-Maintainer/dp/B004LX3AXQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388360711&sr=8-1&keywords=genius+g1100

I have three of these in service now and they out-perform the BT with battery maintenance by a long shot.... I have four more on the way to replace the remaining BTs (good riddance again).

Tip for free: always buy an extension cord (usually an option) for each tender. I used 25' extensions to route overhead in lieu of a short cord where walking under, over, or around in a walkway drives me nuts.

I use these things year-round on all of my batteries..


$0.02

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supreme112279
12-29-2013, 07:17 PM
I like that genius charger better. It's waterproof for starters!

Cloaked
12-29-2013, 07:23 PM
I like that genius charger better. It's waterproof for starters!
Waterproof means nothing to me. I keep them shelved in my garage and plug into pig tails (provided with the unit) from the post when I park the battery. However I see your point for on-board chargers.

rydog
12-30-2013, 01:02 PM
Thanks for the info. Does this make sense: Since I have 2 batteries, 1 for audio and 1 for starting, I will get a single bank shore charger and use that after every trip to charge the audio battery. The starting battery should remain pretty much fully charged if I use it to only start the boat and charge it anytime the boat is running using the alternator.

Also any suggestions on a good single battery that could power my 3 amp set up for a good portion of the day, assuming I will be shore charging it every night.

GoneBoatN
12-31-2013, 01:10 AM
I mounted a Guest 2611 charger in the boat next to the power switch. It is a 3 stage dual battery charger. When putting the boat away, I simply plug in the charger and forget about it.

Sent from my HP Slate 7 using Tapatalk

MLA
12-31-2013, 09:44 AM
Thanks for the info. Does this make sense: Since I have 2 batteries, 1 for audio and 1 for starting, I will get a single bank shore charger and use that after every trip to charge the audio battery. The starting battery should remain pretty much fully charged if I use it to only start the boat and charge it anytime the boat is running using the alternator.

Also any suggestions on a good single battery that could power my 3 amp set up for a good portion of the day, assuming I will be shore charging it every night.

Honestly, I would go with a 2-bank charger. Even though the main cranking battery rarely gets depleted, a 2-bank smart charger will keep it maintained and conditions during the off season or long periods of no use.

I would go with the largest/highest Ah AGM battery you can fit, if only going with a single house battery.

rydog
12-31-2013, 03:51 PM
I have no idea what a high Ah battery is? My current battery is just a low end AutoZone battery. When talking Ah, what is a decently high rating?

Cloaked
12-31-2013, 04:36 PM
my preference from 35 years of dumping money into this pit

Last machine I powered with xx> 'battery's' <xx was for a dual system setup. I used two Interstates (proven time and time again) rated at 750 cold cranking amps. Put one each smart chargers ($50 x 2) on them, keep them plugged in year-round when not in use and forget about it. You're wearing yourself out... :D

Note: for three amps on one battery, I'd consider a third battery wired parallel to support the three amps.

If you choose a fancy deep-cycle whatever, you also should keep similar type batteries (i.e. three Interstates or three gels OR deep-cycle vs. non-deep-cycle standards).

These gel ==> 'batteries' <== are fine for whomever wants them. I ran them for several years and I didn't need anything close to that supposed capacity of performance. Not impressed at all with Optima and their warranty honors (or lack of) for what they think they are worth.

My opinion on the path of best choice is use the two (or three) Interstates, isolate them for your use, upgrade your alternator (a new one or upgrade with a rebuild mod), put in a heavier gauge wire to the starter from the alternator for proper charging, terminal block fuses, and use fresh cables (2 GA) for the main lines. Done deal. Forget about these bells and whistles... I'd forgo the switch too (contrary to my picture.. too late). Just an added layer of crapola.

Here's a place that will furnish the cables with tinned wire and shrink connections. Can't beat their prices or service. http://www.genuinedealz.com/

In process work on a 93 Prostar


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Tristarboarder
12-31-2013, 05:31 PM
What's the black box with the yellow stripe in the middle?

Kweisner
12-31-2013, 06:02 PM
What's the black box with the yellow stripe in the middle?

That'd be a Blue Seas Automatic Charging Relay if I am not mistaken.

Kweisner
12-31-2013, 06:09 PM
I have no idea what a high Ah battery is? My current battery is just a low end AutoZone battery. When talking Ah, what is a decently high rating?

Rydog, high Ah is "amp hours" and it is basically a measure of a battery's strength. So while voltage remains fixed (technically) at 12 volts, the amp hours reflect the stamina, or how long (hours) the battery can deliver a decent amount of current (amps). Hope that helps. There are much smarter people than me on this topic that I am sure would be more eloquent in explaining!

MLA
12-31-2013, 06:30 PM
I have no idea what a high Ah battery is? My current battery is just a low end AutoZone battery. When talking Ah, what is a decently high rating?

When looking at a cranking/starting battery, you would want one with a high CA = cranking amp. For a house battery, you'ld want one with a high Ah = amp hour. Its a measurement of the batteries ability to deliver a set amperage for a length of time while maintaining above a usable voltage level.

With deep-cycle and AGMs, their Ah rating typically falls in line with its size. Larger/heavier battery = higher Ah. Most batteries are sized according to a group number, but not all. A typical marine deep-cycle group-24, commonly used as an OEM battery, will have in the neighborhood of 65 Ah and a larger group-29 might have about 100.

rydog
12-31-2013, 07:18 PM
Alright I understand what you mean now. When I was buying batteries last summer I do not think I looked at the Ah rating at all, only CA....Is there anyway to calculate, based on the amps that will be hooked up to the battery, how long a certain battery with X Ah will last, approximately?

MLA
12-31-2013, 07:54 PM
Alright I understand what you mean now. When I was buying batteries last summer I do not think I looked at the Ah rating at all, only CA....Is there anyway to calculate, based on the amps that will be hooked up to the battery, how long a certain battery with X Ah will last, approximately?

Its an estimate at best because the amps current draw is never constant, even with the volume at a set level.

Cloaked
12-31-2013, 08:21 PM
What's the black box with the yellow stripe in the middle?

That'd be a Blue Seas Automatic Charging Relay if I am not mistaken.Correct...it is the relay. The switch above it is what I would not install had I to do it again. There is a relay switch that is in Diesel's original thread that works just fine. Less wire required, less space taken, less cost, etc.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=3557

A third battery is nothing more than another parallel bank onto the second auxiliary battery. Add a third smart charger too.

It's nothing but a money pit.......:D

.

GoneBoatN
12-31-2013, 09:48 PM
Explanation of switch and ACR setup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4830QsybbM

Seems to be a youtube for everything now days... :D

Tristarboarder
12-31-2013, 10:02 PM
^ great video. Explains a lot, and seems to be an easy way to wire everything up. Utube is incredible in how-to's and DIY projects

JRW160
12-31-2013, 11:57 PM
Costco and Sam's have group 27 deep cycle marine/rv batteries that are 115Ah for pretty cheap. I think they were around $85 last time I checked. They are the best deal I've seen.

I've have 2 of them in parallel running the stereo. I think I've only run out of juice once or twice after playing them for 8+ hours. I have a guest 2610 charger on them. I didn't bother with an acr. I have the amps wired directly to the deep cycle batteries. I still have the batteries connected to the perko, so I can bring them in to start the boat if the starting battery were to fail.

Kweisner
01-01-2014, 02:58 PM
Correct...it is the relay. The switch above it is what I would not install had I to do it again. There is a relay switch that is in Diesel's original thread that works just fine. Less wire required, less space taken, less cost, etc.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=3557

A third battery is nothing more than another parallel bank onto the second auxiliary battery. Add a third smart charger too.

It's nothing but a money pit.......:D

.

I did the relay switch as described by Diesel and it's a great solution. I like the convenience of never have to remember putting switches in the right position,etc.--the ignition key is the switch. As for charging I currently use a single bank Promariner for just the house battery. The start battery gets relatively little use and is typically topped off by the alternator as we run home each day. Once there I do charge and maintain the house batt as it gets more discharged while floating, playing music and running other accessories.

Tristarboarder
01-01-2014, 03:07 PM
So you went with the same Borg Warner R3098 as Diesel? Where did ya get it, a local auto parts store?

Kweisner
01-01-2014, 04:11 PM
Hey Tristarboarder,

That is the one and i believe I ordered it online from Advance Autoparts. Installed mine up under my dash. This put it very close to my house battery which is forward of the driver footwell. Big pain wrestling the battery into that spot but does not take up valuable storage on my 197!

Looks like O'Reilly has 'em for $42.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/02/urapyret.jpg

Tristarboarder
01-01-2014, 04:54 PM
Awesome, thanks. I think I am gonna go that route...I currently have the typical 2 battery/perko switch setup, but I want to be able to just go out and not have to switch back and forth and worry about dead batteries etc.

MLA
01-01-2014, 07:21 PM
One advantage to having a traditional dual-bank battery switch, is the ability to use the house bank as a backup starting battery. Eliminating that switch in place of a continuous-duty solenoid, prevents this. Just some food for thought. That same solenoid can be used injunction with with switch.

Tristarboarder
01-01-2014, 07:31 PM
Oh for sure. When I bought my xstar, it had the switch and 2 new batteries all nicely wired up; looks like it was done right. I am just going to add the solenoid, a permanently mounted charger or 2 with an add on extension cord for the plug-in feed for shore charging and be done with it.

Kweisner
01-01-2014, 07:36 PM
One advantage to having a traditional dual-bank battery switch, is the ability to use the house bank as a backup starting battery. Eliminating that switch in place of a continuous-duty solenoid, prevents this. Just some food for thought. That same solenoid can be used injunction with with switch.

I was under the impression the relay does the same, but check my thinking on this:

When the key is in the OFF or ACC position, the relay is open, thereby separating the batteries. When in the ON or START position, the relay closes, essentially combining both batteries. So when I start my boat, I am pulling 12v from both batts in a parallel circuit.

I guess where the switch differs is that you can engage or disengage the batteries individually vs. the relay which is either separate or combined. So does the switch allow the user to "substitute" either of the batteries into the starting circuit?

Even in that case I'm not sure of the advantage of substitution vs. combining.

MLA
01-01-2014, 08:41 PM
I was under the impression the relay does the same, but check my thinking on this:

When the key is in the OFF or ACC position, the relay is open, thereby separating the batteries. When in the ON or START position, the relay closes, essentially combining both batteries. So when I start my boat, I am pulling 12v from both batts in a parallel circuit.

On paper, this is how the solenoid would work. One thing to consider is that when 2 batteries are combined, they will want to equalize. Meaning the one with the higher charge will flow into the one with the lower static charge. So if one is real low or has totally taken a chit, then combining them through the solenoid means you could end up with 2 batteries too low to crank the engine. `

I guess where the switch differs is that you can engage or disengage the batteries individually vs. the relay which is either separate or combined. So does the switch allow the user to "substitute" either of the batteries into the starting circuit?

.

A traditional dual-battery switch is 100% manual. It will allow you to choose to draw/charge from/to battery 1 or battery 2 or combine the banks and draw/charge both. Adding in a solenoid or ACR makes it a manual/passive system.

The ignition key switch only disconnects some of the boat loads from the engine, leaving others to be a parasitic draw. Having an actual battery switch will allow for ALL loads, except the auto bilge, to be isolated from the batteries when off.

bturner2
01-02-2014, 10:07 AM
I went with the Blue Seas "Add a Batter Kit". Use the switch to turn off the batteries when I' leave the boat on the Shore Station. The relay sets the charge up as required. What was nice about this kit was that it is a kit and everything is included along with instructions. It was straight forward to install with no guessing. Took about an hour to install not including all the clean up of the existing wiring mess, manufacturing of new cables and installing/mounting new battery trays and batteries. I've been very happy with the results. KISS at it's best.

_fng_
01-25-2014, 01:49 AM
I went with the Blue Seas "Add a Batter Kit". Use the switch to turn off the batteries when I' leave the boat on the Shore Station. The relay sets the charge up as required. What was nice about this kit was that it is a kit and everything is included along with instructions. It was straight forward to install with no guessing. Took about an hour to install not including all the clean up of the existing wiring mess, manufacturing of new cables and installing/mounting new battery trays and batteries. I've been very happy with the results. KISS at it's best.

I'm planning on adding the blue seas and read that you may need to buy extra stuff outside of wire such as a bus bar? How much extra wire did the install require? Thanks for the reply.

bturner2
01-25-2014, 09:00 AM
That's going to depend on what your current wiring looks like. Mine was horrible. Not sure how much of it was from the factory or from the "professional" stereo installation that was commissioned by the PO but it was real bad. Non marine rated cable (copper, not tinned copper), multiple direct connections to the battery from the stereo and other options added by the PO made mine a candidate to completely pull it apart and start from scratch. I started a thread on my installation here....

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=29889

The first step in determining what you'll need is to access the installation you currently have. How many wires are currently going directly to your battery? What kind of components were used? What options have been added over time that may not have been installed correctly? Ideally the only cables connected to the battery should be the ground cable to the boats main ground bus bar and the positive cable from the boat's main positive bus bar/breaker and starter circuit. The only exception to that would be for a direct fused connection to a bilge pump.

At a minimum you'll have to make up cables to connect the switch to the batteries, the grounds cables between the two batteries and the ground cable to what should be either a bus bar or terminal post for the boat's main electrical ground. Making cables is easy with some very basic tools (torch, solder, vise and heat gun for dressing the cable ends with shrink tubing) if you plan out your installation and get the right connectors and cable. A lot of us have ordered these components from a company called Genuine Dealz.....

http://www.genuinedealz.com/

For the money you'll save doing this yourself you can afford extra cable and connectors and probably do a much better job than most shops would do. If you don't want to learn how to make the cables Genuine Dealz will make them for you. You'll just need to mock up your installation and use something like a coat hanger to determine the path/length of the cables you'll need made up.

The key as with most projects is to take you time, plan out the installation and get the best materials possible to do the job right. There's always plenty of help here if you need it.

_fng_
01-25-2014, 09:37 AM
Awesome reply. The kit should be here shortly and I'll lay it out and get to work.

uplander
01-25-2014, 11:03 AM
I just checked my batteries since put away, I plugged in my battery maintainer and it ran for about one minute and turned off charge mode.