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craig3972
09-04-2013, 12:12 AM
I let the stereo control get away from me the other night, somebody ( who shall remain nameless) cranked the sub level from my setting of 3 to an 8. well it didnt take long to stretch the voice coil and now its done.
The question is: Replacement Subwoofer? I want to use the JL cause I run two of them in parallel for a 2 ohm load. I took out the original M10WIB5 - which is the infinite baffle sister to the M10W5B (meant for enclosed use).

-Do you think that the IB will be able to work in the enclosure? In parallel with the enclosed type sub.

-Is it possible that the IB could be more resistant to overloading due to its construction to survive in an open air environment? (an enclosure may provide more dampening to excursion due to the air cushion inside the enclosure)

EarmarkMarine
09-04-2013, 12:08 PM
craig,
You definitely can put the sub you mentioned in the enclosure just for the weekend but it is not a permanent solution.
The 10" IB sub is infinite baffle and would like to see an enclosure from 2.25 cu.ft. to infinite.
The 10" W sub is acoustic suspension and works best in a small sealed enclosure of .75 to 1.0 cu.ft.
There are differences in the spider, voice coil and motor/magnet that make each version unique to a specific size of enclosure. Mixing two speakers of different sizes, different strengths or different parameters in the same enclosure will not sound good, especially at higher listening levels. You may not notice it as much on electronic techno music but you will certainly hear a difference on bass created by a real string instrument.

David

craig3972
09-04-2013, 03:33 PM
the two subs are in parallel but in separate sealed enclosures.
Do you think that the IB might be more resistant to over excursion/damage? I have blown this sub before and it would be advantageous to a more robust unit.

Thanks for the reply on MC as well!

EarmarkMarine
09-04-2013, 05:30 PM
the two subs are in parallel but in separate sealed enclosures.
Do you think that the IB might be more resistant to over excursion/damage? I have blown this sub before and it would be advantageous to a more robust unit.

Thanks for the reply on MC as well!

craig,
That's not the thinking you want to follow. An IB sub has greater internal damping, which you might think sums with the air spring of a small sealed enclosure for more collective control. But, that would elevate the resonance and low frequency roll-off point turning it into the world's best midbass driver....but with no more deep bass. Also, IB is a less linear form of suspension so an IB woofer trades MORE control for LESS excursion....ie less maximum output. A design element that you cannot escape. So, get back to creating a woofer and enclosure that is matched and balanced.
On another note. You can double the same woofer's power handling by doubling the voice coil, doubling the inductance, and doubling the sluggishness. In other words, muddy and indiscriminant sound quality. Eventually you sacrifice responsiveness or sound quality with a narrow focus on one objective. It's another one of those design trade-offs with compromises that you cannot escape. Look, woofer voice coils are made from a copper winding insulated by an enamel coating. Copper and enamel pretty much burn and melt at the same temperature from speaker to speaker and brand to brand. So figure out why you blew the sub and correct that issue. It could be equalization, crossover selection, system tuning, a non-airtight enclosure like with no terminal cup, questionable program material, usage, hard clipping, etc. etc.

David

craig3972
09-04-2013, 07:05 PM
I wish JL made a Marine 12" sub - I like to keep all my grills looking OEM.

Traxx822
09-04-2013, 07:48 PM
I wish JL made a Marine 12" sub - I like to keep all my grills looking OEM.

Some older model MC's had JL speaker covers as OEM so if you did an all JL conversion then it wouldn't be out of place imho.

I can attest to the IB being very strong. I'm only putting 250 out of a 700/5 to one of them. I have two of the subs but only one installed right now. I might upgrade to the 900/5 amp before I put in a second sub.

craig3972
09-05-2013, 09:56 AM
I was was running my pair of M10w5 on an MHD750, might be a bit much.

bsloop
09-05-2013, 12:48 PM
Looks like you received a direct answer to your question from David - No

To solve your problem -
1 - own your system and establish a strict "NO TOUCH" policy. Especially at higher volumes.
2- Consider installing larger than 10". 10" is cheap and easy to make an install work but on most installs, only produces reinforcing sound. 12"+ will deliver the bass that is missing.

Don't know where you have them installed now but as David said - a mixed pair of IB and Sealed is not delivering a combined sound and is probably sonically fighting at some frequencies. Don't get too hung up on having a pure mfg system.
What sounds good and meets your listening needs is more important than a grill shape!

EarmarkMarine
09-05-2013, 03:33 PM
I was was running my pair of M10w5 on an MHD750, might be a bit much.

Craig,
At 375 rms watts (very conservatively), especially from a more robust strictly regulated amplifier, that is a lot of power for those sub drivers individually, even as conservatively as JL Audio rates their woofer thermal power. We typically top out at around 300 watts honest power with an unregulated amplifier per each driver in that series. But honestly, I could run double that power and never have an issue because personally I can't tolerate the first hint of distortion. But bass distortion is different and harder to detect versus mids and highs. Distortion in mids and highs tends to immediately grate on you. Bass distortion simply loses tonal construction and becomes muddy which may be harder to hear depending on the type of music you listen to. Plus, bass distortion is even more difficult to hear when underway.
Again, proper tuning (gains and crossover selection) can make a huge difference in reliability, not to mention sound quality. You can't set up a 10" like you do a 12", and you can't set up a boat anything like you do a car, SUV or truck.

David

craig3972
09-05-2013, 06:57 PM
Craig,
At 375 rms watts (very conservatively), especially from a more robust strictly regulated amplifier, that is a lot of power for those sub drivers individually, even as conservatively as JL Audio rates their woofer thermal power. We typically top out at around 300 watts honest power with an unregulated amplifier per each driver in that series. But honestly, I could run double that power and never have an issue because personally I can't tolerate the first hint of distortion. But bass distortion is different and harder to detect versus mids and highs. Distortion in mids and highs tends to immediately grate on you. Bass distortion simply loses tonal construction and becomes muddy which may be harder to hear depending on the type of music you listen to. Plus, bass distortion is even more difficult to hear when underway.
Again, proper tuning (gains and crossover selection) can make a huge difference in reliability, not to mention sound quality. You can't set up a 10" like you do a 12", and you can't set up a boat anything like you do a car, SUV or truck.

David

Thank you David.


I always really liked the M10w5's, fast responding, deep sounding for a 10" with the HD750, and I was having good luck until this last incident. Besides a 12" wouldn't fit in the MC OEM location.

craig3972
09-10-2013, 12:58 AM
David at Earmark Marine,
I have seen subwoofer brands mentioned on other boat stereo forums (RE and Sundowner specifically). I was curious if it would be worthwhile to replace my two M10w5 currently operating in my boat. But without actually ever hearing them I cannot determine if they will generate more output than I presently have. I would just put these subs in the same sealed enclosures and run the same amplifiers off them if I were to make the switch. Any suggestions and comments would be greatly appreciated!

EarmarkMarine
09-10-2013, 12:11 PM
craig,
Keep in mind that a 10" sub of equal surface area and motor strength from various manufacturers will produce roughly the same amount of overall or average energy. You cannot cheat mother nature and bend the laws of physics. But here is the difference. One manufacturer can produce more energy over a narrower bandwidth or less peak energy with more linearity and extension over a wider bandwidth. Again, the total energy is the same. It's just in different places. So if you listen to bass created from real string instruments you might be disappointed with the SPL speakers that impose their own characteristics on all bass instruments and bass tones. However, if you listen to strictly rap and electronic techno, there may be few string instruments with more of a monotanous bass beat generated by a keyboard, synthesizer, laptop, etc., none of which are real instruments. For instance, there are many videos showing the water jumping around the hull of the boat and in each case the bass sound is totally indiscriminant.
So importers like RE and Sundown take off-the-shelf China parts to make a speaker that is focused on one thing for one type of listener. A paper cone in this day and age is kind of a give away.
While not for me personally, these type of speakers are exactly what some people want and those are the people usually populating the DIY and car audio forums.

David

Stefan
09-10-2013, 02:43 PM
Thanks David for the huge amount of good and honest info/knowledge... I like that, as always, you just can't bend physics...

I think you forgot to make one thing clear...

If it sounds distorted or not good in any way, NO MATTER WHAT, TURN IT DOWN!

craig3972
09-11-2013, 01:02 AM
Thanks for the helpful advice David.

Stefan, We dont roll that way in N.A.

Stefan
09-12-2013, 02:16 PM
Thanks for the helpful advice David.

Stefan, We dont roll that way in N.A.

Yes I heard of that ;)

craig3972
09-13-2013, 01:52 PM
here is a pic of the sub , pulled the spider right off the cone.
101063

I think I may be willing to give up sound quality for output.

EarmarkMarine
09-13-2013, 02:39 PM
From the photo, the glue seam did not fail. The spider fatiqued and was torn at the most vulnerable point close to the voice coil from excessive excursion (when it was completely stretched out the back and forth bend became extreme at the termination). This can be a result of simply being over-driven and abused. This can also be a result of the wrong crossover point, using bass boost or eq when you shouldn't, or an enclosure without a terminal cup and/or that was unsealed by some other means. Any woofer will have obvious distortion before it fails in that manner.

David

EarmarkMarine
09-13-2013, 02:42 PM
Here's an example of a Sundown woofer in a boat. It does one thing well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk1rk2VIPns

Not very musical.

EarmarkMarine
09-13-2013, 02:45 PM
Here's an example of a real bass instrument played by a real artist and how bass can sound on a SQ woofer if the system is set up correctly.

http://www.notreble.com/buzz/2012/04/16/chris-squire-roundabout-isolated-bass-isolated-bass-week/

Of course, you are not going to hear the bass fundamentals from either through a computer speaker.

David

craig3972
09-13-2013, 03:25 PM
As much as I like the sound quality of the M10W5's, I think people in our boat are there for the party (loud music) and could careless about SQ. I just hope that if I buy and install a set of high output (SPL) type subs that I don't dislike the sound they produce. I am willing to give up some SQ for volume.

Going back a few years I replaced a JL sub with an Alpine Type R. Hated the sound of the Type R, didnt seem to be faithfully reproducing the music, so I removed them. that was in a vehicle tho.

craig3972
09-13-2013, 03:28 PM
From the photo, the glue seam did not fail. The spider fatiqued and was torn at the most vulnerable point close to the voice coil from excessive excursion (when it was completely stretched out the back and forth bend became extreme at the termination). This can be a result of simply being over-driven and abused. This can also be a result of the wrong crossover point, using bass boost or eq when you shouldn't, or an enclosure without a terminal cup and/or that was unsealed by some other means. Any woofer will have obvious distortion before it fails in that manner.

David

I installed the IB sub for now and turned down the gains a bit more. It seemed as though there were a bit too high because I could hear the non-damaged sub bottoming.

Its difficult to tune on the driveway in our neighbourhood as I dont want to play loud music for long periods of time.

EarmarkMarine
09-13-2013, 04:29 PM
As much as I like the sound quality of the M10W5's, I think people in our boat are there for the party (loud music) and could careless about SQ. I just hope that if I buy and install a set of high output (SPL) type subs that I don't dislike the sound they produce. I am willing to give up some SQ for volume.

Going back a few years I replaced a JL sub with an Alpine Type R. Hated the sound of the Type R, didnt seem to be faithfully reproducing the music, so I removed them. that was in a vehicle tho.

Again, as explained before, to get an output increase from the same size woofer you will give up bandwidth and linearity (smoothness). Higher 'Q'. Higher Fs. Higher sensitivity. Peaky response. Simply put...more peak output over a narrower bandwidth. Not more average output.
Or, a woofer can be designed to handle more power. Multiple spiders=more moving mass=less agility. Larger gauge voice coil windings for greater thermal capacity=more voice coil winding layers to equal the same resistance=greater voice coil inductance=less midbass responsiveness and less articulation.
A woofer is a tuned circuit. Mass=inductance. Compliance=capacitance. Etc. It's mathematical. You can move all the numbers around with the same size of woofer but you can't get more of something without sacrificing something else. Just like a sub enclosure. Make it smaller and it will provide more of a midbass peak and more output over a narrower bandwidth at the cost of low bass extension.
Listen to all the YouTube videos of all the SPL woofers that sound like a compressor with a broken gasket or a flap disc hooked up to a weedwacker. One note wonders with tons of distortion.
If you want more output then increase the woofer size in a larger enclosure with a larger amplifier. Everything else is a trade-off.

David

craig3972
09-13-2013, 07:49 PM
The unfortuate thing is that dont have enough space to put 12's in the place where 10's are. I do have a pair of "boat shakers" (13W6's on HD1200 amps) in the rear lockers so they do provide some low bass.

I would like to get more out of the direct radiating space I have. Bottom line is I need to hear these SPL subs to see if they are right for me. That would mean buying them and taking my chances.:(

EarmarkMarine
09-13-2013, 09:45 PM
craig,
A SPL woofer uses a paper cone for a reason....the same reason a guitar amplifier uses paper.... lighter and therefore more sensitive. You will certainly get more peak output from a paper SPL woofer if that is the over-riding priority. There is no risk in that. You just have to reconcile the pros and cons.

David

craig3972
09-15-2013, 02:02 AM
Does this mean that the plastic injection molded cones on the JL's are less than desirable when it comes to output and SQ?

EarmarkMarine
09-15-2013, 11:25 AM
Does this mean that the plastic injection molded cones on the JL's are less than desirable when it comes to output and SQ?

Oh, heck no. The JL Audio woofer is far and away superior in SQ. Now a JL Audio automotive speaker will have a bit more output than the marine speaker. Only the marine speaker is suitable for off-shore usage.
Paper is just typically lighter, cheaper and an off-the-shelf China part. Cheap/China is a major part of the Sundown equation. Paper is also more prone to cone break-up modes, in other words, distortion. For an idea of what 'break-up modes' are, read this blog and view the corresponding graphic.
http://earmarkcaraudio.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2013-03-11T07:42:00-07:00&max-results=7
A paper cone will also absorb moisture in a boat and that will change the weight of the cone and therefore the Thiele/Small parameters, so over time, it is a crap shoot as to what you have.

Think of a speaker as something similar to a guitar string. Make the string thinner, lighter and stretch it tighter...and the resonance goes higher. Make the string thicker, heavier and make it more compliant...and the tone goes lower. It's a tuned circuit. And all the parts (cone, spider, magnet and voice coil) of a speaker are a tuned circuit. An SQ circuit is a balanced circuit that provides more output over a broader bandwidth with less deviation and less distortion. An SPL circuit is an unbalanced circuit that is erratic in its response and compromises all the other performance attributes for a more singular pursuit.

Now set your priorities and your compromises and pick one woofer. You can't have it all in one speaker. PERIOD!

David