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19_Skier
09-03-2013, 02:41 PM
So I have noticed over the last month when I first reverse the boat out from the dock for a cruise or ski it shakes pretty bad. I have also noticed what I can only describe as almost a "chugging" sounds when I put it in forward, only at idle speed. There's no noticeable vibrations or sound at ski speeds (26 - 36 mph), but I have felt a bit of a slip the odd time when first taking off.

These issues seem to disappear after running the boat at temp for 5 - 10 minutes. I check my transmission fluid religiously and it hasn't moved on the stick, I am wondering what else I should be checking?

2001 Prostar 19Skier with the 310 predator, 1:1 transmission and 756 hours.

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 02:43 PM
ATF changed recently as well?

19_Skier
09-03-2013, 03:03 PM
ATF changed recently as well?

ATF, as in transmission fluid changed? (sorry, I'm not overly skilled when it comes to motors or acronyms surrounding them...) was planning on changing out with the winterization in October.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 03:06 PM
How long since it was last changed? Is the color still look red or is it brownish? Does it smell burned at all?

19_Skier
09-03-2013, 03:29 PM
How long since it was last changed? Is the color still look red or is it brownish? Does it smell burned at all?

just past 100 hours, doesn't have standard red transmission fluid PO must have changed to engine oil. No burnt smell.

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 03:38 PM
which transmission does your boat have?

19_Skier
09-03-2013, 04:00 PM
You would ask me that 8p. Since a photo is worth 1000 words, here's the best info I have at the moment.

FrankSchwab
09-03-2013, 04:11 PM
I don't believe that there was ever a change to the fluid for the 1:1 transmissions. The optional switch to engine oil was for the V-Drives of that era. So, and I may be mistaken, I think you're supposed to have ATF in there if it's really a 1:1.

19_Skier
09-03-2013, 04:36 PM
I don't believe that there was ever a change to the fluid for the 1:1 transmissions. The optional switch to engine oil was for the V-Drives of that era. So, and I may be mistaken, I think you're supposed to have ATF in there if it's really a 1:1.

You know what, I just looked up the indmar manual and zoomed in on my picture. It's a ZF Hurth 450A with a 1.5:1 if that makes a difference?

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 04:59 PM
You know what, I just looked up the indmar manual and zoomed in on my picture. It's a ZF Hurth 450A with a 1.5:1 if that makes a difference?

Did you look in the manual to see what lube is recommended?

19_Skier
09-03-2013, 05:14 PM
Did you look in the manual to see what lube is recommended?

yes, calls for pennzoil dexron II/III in the manual. The colour has never been red (2nd full season with the boat) and it's never changed in colour over those 2 years.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 05:19 PM
yes, calls for pennzoil dexron II/III in the manual. The colour has never been red (2nd full season with the boat) and it's never changed in colour over those 2 years.

Certainly due for a change. Just need someone to chime in if this is one of the transmissions that benefits from using motor oil vs. the designated transmission fluid.

19_Skier
09-03-2013, 05:25 PM
Certainly due for a change. Just need someone to chime in if this is one of the transmissions that benefits from using motor oil vs. the designated transmission fluid.

Thanks TMMC! Yeah, I am really confused now as I specifically asked the dealership that does the winterization to check the trans fluid last fall and they told me it was clean and good. From the research I've done seems pretty straight forward to change myself this weekend.

Voodoo
09-03-2013, 05:27 PM
Check the cutlass bearing. A worn bearing will cause noise/vibrations at slow speeds that become inaudible/less noticeable at speed.

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 06:19 PM
strange that they switched to motor oil not ATF - that tranny definitely calls for ATF.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 06:26 PM
strange that they switched to motor oil not ATF - that tranny definitely calls for ATF.

I believe it was because the trans fluid was thin enough that there was some rattling sounds heard. The oil, being thicker, prevented this.

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 06:36 PM
I believe it was because the trans fluid was thin enough that there was some rattling sounds heard. The oil, being thicker, prevented this.

the old increase the viscosity to hide a problem trick...nice....:mad:

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 06:41 PM
the old increase the viscosity to hide a problem trick...nice....:mad:

I remember putting 20W-50 Valvoline in my old 79 F150 with 160,000 miles on it just to have adequate oil pressure during it's last summer. :rolleyes:

Not sure what Hurth was thinking. Transmission fluid is a better lubricant than motor oil. One would think they understood tolerances.......

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 06:45 PM
so then is 100% synth ATF too slippery for our boats? Not to start and oil discussion ;)

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 06:48 PM
so then is 100% synth ATF too slippery for our boats? Not to start and oil discussion ;)

Not sure. I have Dexron III in my boat which calls for Type F trans fluid and mine works just fine.:rolleyes:

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 06:49 PM
Not sure. I have Dexron III in my boat which calls for Type F trans fluid and mine works just fine.:rolleyes:

They all say backwards compatible... ;) :rolleyes:

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 06:55 PM
They all say backwards compatible... ;) :rolleyes:

Yeah, but who are "they"?

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 07:03 PM
Yeah, but who are "they"?

GM and Ford - GM - Dexron VI good for Dexron III - Dexron III good in Dexron II applications - Castrol applications on Dexron and Mercon.

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 07:12 PM
GM and Ford - GM - Dexron VI good for Dexron III - Dexron III good in Dexron II applications - Castrol applications on Dexron and Mercon.

I know.....http://i45.tinypic.com/alqcyo.jpg

19_Skier
09-03-2013, 07:23 PM
strange that they switched to motor oil not ATF - that tranny definitely calls for ATF.

Can I switch it back or do I stick with motor oil?

Cloaked
09-03-2013, 07:30 PM
Can I switch it back or do I stick with motor oil?
Personally, I'd switch back if indeed the manufacturer calls for ATF. I don't see any harm with the engine oil now other than it's not the recommended fluid.

.

maxpower220
09-03-2013, 09:59 PM
the old increase the viscosity to hide a problem trick...nice....:mad:

I worked at a Honda dealership in the mid 90s. An older car came in on trade that smoked like a chimney, service ship drained the oil, added 90 wt gear oil and sent it off to auction. Little to no smoke while running.

That is why buying at the auction got such a bad name.

macattack
09-03-2013, 11:52 PM
Attached is the Service Advisory ref the change to 15W40 motor oil...not sure the fluid type really answers your vibration issue at low speeds.

FrankSchwab
09-04-2013, 12:46 AM
If you've got 15w-40 in there, that's what I'd refill with after a drain. If you've got ATF and you don't have a rattle problem, that's what I'd refill with. If you've got ATF and a rattle at idle/low speeds that you'd like to get rid of, I'd refill with 15w-40.

19_Skier
09-04-2013, 07:40 AM
Attached is the Service Advisory ref the change to 15W40 motor oil...not sure the fluid type really answers your vibration issue at low speeds.

Thanks! I see it says V-Drive or In-line so that makes sense why it was changed. I'm not sure it will cure the vibration either but I think changing it is a good place to start, work my way through the more simple things that I am comfortable doing myself first and go from there.

Skir68
09-04-2013, 10:27 AM
Will changing to Motor oil get rid of the "ROCKS" in there at low idle?

19_Skier
09-04-2013, 06:25 PM
OK, so for now I have things to check as:

1 - old trans fluid
2 - cutlass bearings

trans fluids seems easy enough, will change this weekend. Going to stick with the 15w40 motor oil and see what happens. cutlass bearings seems a bit more tricky so hopefully I don't have to go there, is there anything else in between these two I should be looking at?

Skir68, when you say motor oil are you referring to the motor or the transmission? The boat runs smooths in neutral it's only in gear that the vibration occurs and the chugging noise is only at low speeds and definitely coming from the back of the boat.

Would it be possible that a mark in the prop could do this? The only thing it's ever hit to my knowledge was a guide ball (long story) but that was last fall.

Cloaked
09-04-2013, 07:15 PM
OK, so for now I have things to check as:

1 - old trans fluid
2 - cutlass bearings

trans fluids seems easy enough, will change this weekend. Going to stick with the 15w40 motor oil and see what happens. cutlass bearings seems a bit more tricky so hopefully I don't have to go there, is there anything else in between these two I should be looking at?

Skir68, when you say motor oil are you referring to the motor or the transmission? The boat runs smooths in neutral it's only in gear that the vibration occurs and the chugging noise is only at low speeds and definitely coming from the back of the boat.

Would it be possible that a mark in the prop could do this? The only thing it's ever hit to my knowledge was a guide ball (long story) but that was last fall.A small nick in a prop can indeed create a vibration. I doubt it would be the cause of the chug, but anything is possible.
Have a look here ==> http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass

.

19_Skier
09-09-2013, 09:53 AM
So changed the transmission fluid this weekend, it was definitely due for a change. Bad news, it didn't get rid of the vibration or noise :mad:

19_Skier
09-16-2013, 11:37 AM
So we were pulling our course this weekend and one of my ski buddies was driving my boat. He did a hard reverse at one point, not used to the difference between my boat and his. The boat sat for five minutes or so then when we went to take off as he accelerated we heard a quick "clunk" noise. He throttled off immediately then we took off again with no noise. This is the same noise I heard a few weeks ago after accidentally hitting a hard reverse.

Our thoughts were I may have a loose prop nut, with the hard reverse the prop moved a bit then when you go forward and give it some gas, the prop moves back against the nut, resulting in the noise.

Any thoughts? How can I confirm this - just get under and try and turn the nut? Try wiggling the prop? I am beginning to think this may be my culprit for the reverse vibrations.

I can't get my boat out of the water right now, a beaver dam let go last week and destroyed our boat launch so anything I do will have to be in the water. Nothing like rooting around under your boat in 60 degree water!

cal69
09-17-2013, 11:49 AM
So we were pulling our course this weekend and one of my ski buddies was driving my boat. He did a hard reverse at one point, not used to the difference between my boat and his. The boat sat for five minutes or so then when we went to take off as he accelerated we heard a quick "clunk" noise. He throttled off immediately then we took off again with no noise. This is the same noise I heard a few weeks ago after accidentally hitting a hard reverse.

Our thoughts were I may have a loose prop nut, with the hard reverse the prop moved a bit then when you go forward and give it some gas, the prop moves back against the nut, resulting in the noise.

Any thoughts? How can I confirm this - just get under and try and turn the nut? Try wiggling the prop? I am beginning to think this may be my culprit for the reverse vibrations.

I can't get my boat out of the water right now, a beaver dam let go last week and destroyed our boat launch so anything I do will have to be in the water. Nothing like rooting around under your boat in 60 degree water!

I had this same situation happen once on my old boat. I freaked out thinking I hit something. Turns out the prop retaining nut needed a quarter turn. All was good after that.

east tx skier
09-17-2013, 11:59 AM
If you use ATF, avoid synth. Doesn't play well from all I have read on other forums.

One other thing to check, is your prop nut snug? I had quite a reverse rattle at one point. Remained for a few seconds going forward, but smoothed out once I was running. Turns out, my prop nut (nylock) had backed off and the prop was wobbling around in reverse. When going forward, the force of the prop against the water pushed it back up on the shaft.

Snugged it up and problem solved.

mikeg205
09-17-2013, 12:13 PM
If you use ATF, avoid synth. Doesn't play well from all I have read on other forums.

One other thing to check, is your prop nut snug? I had quite a reverse rattle at one point. Remained for a few seconds going forward, but smoothed out once I was running. Turns out, my prop nut (nylock) had backed off and the prop was wobbling around in reverse. When going forward, the force of the prop against the water pushed it back up on the shaft.

Snugged it up and problem solved.

+1 one on synth ATF talked to Hurth Technician... Synth will cause slip. i.e. Castrol Transmax VI is a blend but a group 1 base I believe so that is no problem... been running that for 3 seasons now.

How are you slipping into reverse... is the spring which engages lock key on your controller broken?

19_Skier
09-17-2013, 01:17 PM
I had this same situation happen once on my old boat. I freaked out thinking I hit something. Turns out the prop retaining nut needed a quarter turn. All was good after that.

If you use ATF, avoid synth. Doesn't play well from all I have read on other forums.

One other thing to check, is your prop nut snug? I had quite a reverse rattle at one point. Remained for a few seconds going forward, but smoothed out once I was running. Turns out, my prop nut (nylock) had backed off and the prop was wobbling around in reverse. When going forward, the force of the prop against the water pushed it back up on the shaft.

Snugged it up and problem solved.

This is the first thing I am checking this weekend, really hope this is the issue!

+1 one on synth ATF talked to Hurth Technician... Synth will cause slip. i.e. Castrol Transmax VI is a blend but a group 1 base I believe so that is no problem... been running that for 3 seasons now.

How are you slipping into reverse... is the spring which engages lock key on your controller broken?

nothing broken, when I hit hard reverse a few weeks ago it was just sloppy throttling as I was leaning over from behind the drivers seat. This weekend it was a ski buddy who wasn't used to the difference in reversing between his 2007 Moomba and my boat.

macattack
09-17-2013, 01:56 PM
@19skier, another thought...maybe your transmission coupler nut is backing off; it can happen from either the transmission or the prop side of the coupler. A quick check is to pull/push on your prop and see if the shaft moves back and forth at all. Check out this thread...mac

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=42972&highlight=transmission+coupler

mikeg205
09-17-2013, 02:20 PM
This is the first thing I am checking this weekend, really hope this is the issue!



nothing broken, when I hit hard reverse a few weeks ago it was just sloppy throttling as I was leaning over from behind the drivers seat. This weekend it was a ski buddy who wasn't used to the difference in reversing between his 2007 Moomba and my boat.

??? Throttle back is not reverse on Moomba? :confused::confused:

My buddies Moomba is just like my PS 205 - never had to slam or slipped into reverse by accident. :confused:

19_Skier
09-17-2013, 02:54 PM
@19skier, another thought...maybe your transmission coupler nut is backing off; it can happen from either the transmission or the prop side of the coupler. A quick check is to pull/push on your prop and see if the shaft moves back and forth at all. Check out this thread...mac

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=42972&highlight=transmission+coupler

Thanks macattack, I will check this as well.

??? Throttle back is not reverse on Moomba? :confused::confused:

My buddies Moomba is just like my PS 205 - never had to slam or slipped into reverse by accident. :confused:

It didn't slip into reverse by accident, He put it into reverse but continued to push the throttle back before the boat actually changed gears - make sense?

mikeg205
09-17-2013, 03:00 PM
Thanks macattack, I will check this as well.



It didn't slip into reverse by accident, He put it into reverse but continued to push the throttle back before the boat actually changed gears - make sense?

Yup - sounds like an adjustment is required at minimum - trans should shift as we know in idle 600rpms...iirc

19_Skier
04-12-2014, 04:41 PM
Hey guys,

An update on my vibration and noise issues. I pulled the prop off in the fall as it had a small ding in it. When we did, I noticed the shaft was off to the right in the strut and rubbing. The cutlass bearing is shot so I need to pull the shaft. I have it disconnected from the tranny but the nut that holds the shaft inside the coupler is ridiculously stuck. Any suggestions on how to get that nut off so I can get the shaft out? It started coming loose then tightened again, I'm worried about pulling on it too hard!

A side note, the shaft where it sat inside the strut is really polished and grooved obviously from rubbing inside the strut. Is the shaft done?

19_Skier
04-12-2014, 09:16 PM
This is what I am dealing with. I am thinking it is just years of build up but holding the shaft in place while trying to loosen it is marking the shaft. Any suggestions?

homer12
04-12-2014, 09:37 PM
I just made this cheap easy tool for removing those nuts. The bolt goes in a hole on the coupler and you hold it from moving. Mine was so tough I had to use a small cheater bar to get enough leverage on this tool. http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/13/yqyjanes.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/13/te9ehyhe.jpg

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

19_Skier
04-13-2014, 09:22 PM
Thank's for the photos, it helped get the nut off successfully today. However, now I am stuck at getting the coupler off - surprise, surprise - it won't budge. You can see in the one photo we have a puller on and that's how I left it today. Hoping, based on Mikeg's comments in the other thread that it will pop off this week.

I snapped some pictures of the shaft in the strut and the polishing/grooves in the shaft from it. There are actually 2 sections of the shaft that look like this, presumably from each of the cutlass bearings wearing out?

Last photo is the tranny. Should I be putting anything between the connection to keep moisture out when I reconnect the shaft to the tranny?

If I can't get the coupler off the shaft in the next few days, likely taking the boat up to Buckeye Marine (local mastercraft dealer) to see if they can get it off. Looks like I will need new cutlass bearings, new shaft, new seals for the stuffing box. Hopefully the engine doesn't need an alignment as well - shaping up to be an expensive start to the season.

occva
04-13-2014, 09:42 PM
Try some threaded rod with a socket slightly smaller than the shaft. Thighten the nuts evenly to pull the coupler off.

supturb89
04-13-2014, 10:42 PM
19_Skier,

First off, thanks for the detailed write-up so far and sorry for the threadjack. After reading through this I've decided I need to tackle this myself. My 96 has lots of vibration in reverse and the low speed "chugging" when moving forward. At speed there are no noticeable vibrations. I have owned the boat for almost four years and it has always been this way. Obviously I don't suffer from MCOCD because my 4-blade OJ 13x13 has a few dings in it here and there and I've always contributed these symptoms to that. I'm planning on replacing the prop with a CNC Acme/OJ anyway, but now I think I should replace the cutlass bearing as well. Besides the bearing and a good puller what else do I need to have on-hand? Did you get your cutlass bearing from SKIDIM? Thanks.

Worthing skier
04-14-2014, 05:41 AM
Hello there

Leave the puller in place with the tension applied , apply some local heat to the flange with a butane type plumbers blow torch ,while still hot use a hammer and drift or punch to jar the flange .
it will come off .

Usual heath and safty don't burn yourself dont set the boat on fire etc.

Good luck

Kevin

19_Skier
04-14-2014, 05:14 PM
19_Skier,

First off, thanks for the detailed write-up so far and sorry for the threadjack. After reading through this I've decided I need to tackle this myself. My 96 has lots of vibration in reverse and the low speed "chugging" when moving forward. At speed there are no noticeable vibrations. I have owned the boat for almost four years and it has always been this way. Obviously I don't suffer from MCOCD because my 4-blade OJ 13x13 has a few dings in it here and there and I've always contributed these symptoms to that. I'm planning on replacing the prop with a CNC Acme/OJ anyway, but now I think I should replace the cutlass bearing as well. Besides the bearing and a good puller what else do I need to have on-hand? Did you get your cutlass bearing from SKIDIM? Thanks.

Thanks but I really have no idea what I am doing! Everything I have done up to now I learned from researching this forum. I have depended heavily on the knowledge that has been shared in the past here for everything I do with the boat.

I haven't bought bearings yet, but since I'm north of the border it likely won't be from skidim as the shipping costs are killer.

Hello there

Leave the puller in place with the tension applied , apply some local heat to the flange with a butane type plumbers blow torch ,while still hot use a hammer and drift or punch to jar the flange .
it will come off .

Usual heath and safty don't burn yourself dont set the boat on fire etc.

Good luck

Kevin

We had a torch on it a few times and tried with a hammer to break it free. No success yet. My biggest problem is I have no room at my place for the boat so it is stuck 45 mins away even though it's out of storage. I really envy those with their boat sitting at their place all winter.

Another note, I talked with the local MC dealership today. They said there are bearings built into the strut that may be worn out and in that case I need a completely new strut? Is this true? I thought this was the cutlass bearings which can be replaced, no?

The prices they gave me to do some of the work are quite reasonable, and since I will be completely tied up in four weeks, I may just bit the bullet and have them deal with it. My only issue is them saying I may need a new strut.

Cloaked
04-14-2014, 05:30 PM
.......They said there are bearings built into the strut that may be worn out and in that case I need a completely new strut? Is this true? I thought this was the cutlass bearings which can be replaced, no?

Only thing that I could see that warrants a new strut is that it's bent or damaged beyond use. You can replace the sleeve bearing easily enough. Plenty of info here on the forum and here ==> http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass

Yes, same bearing, same thing....

.

19_Skier
04-15-2014, 02:33 PM
Only thing that I could see that warrants a new strut is that it's bent or damaged beyond use. You can replace the sleeve bearing easily enough. Plenty of info here on the forum and here ==> http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass

Yes, same bearing, same thing....

.

Thanks for confirming Cloaked. I was positive I had it right but when the dealer started telling me something different, it made me question. I am going to give it one more try on Friday, if it won't pop off then up to the dealer with her.

19_Skier
04-18-2014, 06:28 PM
Finally got back down to the boat today to get at the coupler again. Gave it a couple wacks and - SUCCESS!! Taking shaft in to get it looked at next week.

19_Skier
05-27-2014, 08:01 AM
So I ran out of time with this project when we had our 2nd child in early May. I took the boat up to Buckeye Marine, the local MC dealer to look at it. The shaft wasn't the issue, although it was toast, it was the strut that was bent. Since I never hit anything, must have been before I bought the boat. So new strut and shaft plus a reconditioned prop, bottom end is all brand new.

Buckeye made a mistake when they quoted me the price, they told me the shaft just needed to be reconditioned and would be OK when in fact I actually needed a new shaft. They honoured the original quote making the total cost barely more than it would have cost me to order the parts alone! Although it took longer than originally expected, the guys at Buckeye were great and I would recommend them to anyone in Ontario.

Putting the boat in this weekend, hoping for a smooth start to 2014!