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Mgboyd25
08-28-2013, 03:57 PM
I have been having a reoccurring problem this summer that has kept me from using the boat since about July.
The problem first occurred about two seasons ago during the last outing for the season. We put the boat in a it fired up as it always did. My friend took the first barefoot run all the way to the end of the river. I shut the boat off when he got in the boat so I could get ready for a run. When we tried to start the boat it would not completely turn over. It sounded similar to what the motor does when the safety lanyard is disconnected. We check just that and it was snug. The next thing you would think was if the fuel pump was going dead. By that point we received a tow back to the ramp. When we got back home I hooked it up to a fake lake and it fired right up like nothing happened. At this point I decided to just winterize it and deal with the issue in the spring.

The next spring I took the boa out to test it and it fired right up with no problems. So I used it all season with no issue.

Forward to this season- I had the same situation reoccur. When we put the boat in it fired right up as usual but once the boat was turned off it would not restart on a hot start.
After talking with the dealer we concluded that the fuel pump must be dying when it got hot. I replaced the fuel pump with a friend and quickly found out that it was not the issue as the problem happened again.

At this point I decided it would just be best to take it to our dealer.(They are AWESOME by the way and this post isn't in anyway directed towards them). The head mechanic concluded that it was either the ECM-Electronic Computer Module or possibly the fact that the distributor cap was corroded beyond anything I've seen before. So we decided to go with the cheaper repair first but that didn't fix it.
So we were left with the ECM replacement which was recommended by Indmar's engineer.
We went out after the ECM replacement and the problem continued.

That puts us where I am today. They Dealer has my boat and they are working to try and figure out the cause of the problem. I am getting good fuel pressure, spark, and voltage.
The boat always fires up on a cold start but as soon as it gets hot and it is shut off it won't fire back up on a warm start.

MikeyOrange88
08-28-2013, 06:03 PM
I have been having a reoccurring problem this summer that has kept me from using the boat since about July.
The problem first occurred about two seasons ago during the last outing for the season. We put the boat in a it fired up as it always did. My friend took the first barefoot run all the way to the end of the river. I shut the boat off when he got in the boat so I could get ready for a run. When we tried to start the boat it would not completely turn over. It sounded similar to what the motor does when the safety lanyard is disconnected. We check just that and it was snug. The next thing you would think was if the fuel pump was going dead. By that point we received a tow back to the ramp. When we got back home I hooked it up to a fake lake and it fired right up like nothing happened. At this point I decided to just winterize it and deal with the issue in the spring.

The next spring I took the boa out to test it and it fired right up with no problems. So I used it all season with no issue.

Forward to this season- I had the same situation reoccur. When we put the boat in it fired right up as usual but once the boat was turned off it would not restart on a hot start.
After talking with the dealer we concluded that the fuel pump must be dying when it got hot. I replaced the fuel pump with a friend and quickly found out that it was not the issue as the problem happened again.

At this point I decided it would just be best to take it to our dealer.(They are AWESOME by the way and this post isn't in anyway directed towards them). The head mechanic concluded that it was either the ECM-Electronic Computer Module or possibly the fact that the distributor cap was corroded beyond anything I've seen before. So we decided to go with the cheaper repair first but that didn't fix it.
So we were left with the ECM replacement which was recommended by Indmar's engineer.
We went out after the ECM replacement and the problem continued.

That puts us where I am today. They Dealer has my boat and they are working to try and figure out the cause of the problem. I am getting good fuel pressure, spark, and voltage.
The boat always fires up on a cold start but as soon as it gets hot and it is shut off it won't fire back up on a warm start.

When you say "it would not completely turn over", you mean the starter is turning over very slowly, somewhat like when you have an almost dead battery? It may in fact be the starter itself. Several posts on here where that was the issue. Seems a little premature for a 2004 boat, but possible I'm sure. It would cost nothing to remove starter and have it bench checked at an auto parts store.

Mine had the slow hot start condition as well. It would just barely turn over, leaving you stranded. Next time, cold start in driveway, had no issues. Several cycles like that will drive you crazy. I replaced starter with a new Arco gear reduction type and problem solved. Starters can look fine and still be bad.

Of course, you should have already checked the cables, terminal connections, ground, etc. I'll say it before someone else does, Stop throwing parts at the problem until the problem is diagnosed, especially expensive ones like ecm's and fuel pumps.:(

Not sure why dealer would think the ecm is bad if it is not turning over? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue. Does it (crank) turning over freely, just doesn't start when hot?

JimN
08-28-2013, 06:10 PM
I have been having a reoccurring problem this summer that has kept me from using the boat since about July.
The problem first occurred about two seasons ago during the last outing for the season. We put the boat in a it fired up as it always did. My friend took the first barefoot run all the way to the end of the river. I shut the boat off when he got in the boat so I could get ready for a run. When we tried to start the boat it would not completely turn over. It sounded similar to what the motor does when the safety lanyard is disconnected. We check just that and it was snug. The next thing you would think was if the fuel pump was going dead. By that point we received a tow back to the ramp. When we got back home I hooked it up to a fake lake and it fired right up like nothing happened. At this point I decided to just winterize it and deal with the issue in the spring.

The next spring I took the boa out to test it and it fired right up with no problems. So I used it all season with no issue.

Forward to this season- I had the same situation reoccur. When we put the boat in it fired right up as usual but once the boat was turned off it would not restart on a hot start.
After talking with the dealer we concluded that the fuel pump must be dying when it got hot. I replaced the fuel pump with a friend and quickly found out that it was not the issue as the problem happened again.

At this point I decided it would just be best to take it to our dealer.(They are AWESOME by the way and this post isn't in anyway directed towards them). The head mechanic concluded that it was either the ECM-Electronic Computer Module or possibly the fact that the distributor cap was corroded beyond anything I've seen before. So we decided to go with the cheaper repair first but that didn't fix it.
So we were left with the ECM replacement which was recommended by Indmar's engineer.
We went out after the ECM replacement and the problem continued.

That puts us where I am today. They Dealer has my boat and they are working to try and figure out the cause of the problem. I am getting good fuel pressure, spark, and voltage.
The boat always fires up on a cold start but as soon as it gets hot and it is shut off it won't fire back up on a warm start.

If the ECM replacement didn't cure the problem, I would hesitate to consider them AWESOME.

Did they connect it to a diagnostic computer to view the data? If not, why not? That would rule out a lot of possible causes.

Open the throttle a little and see if it starts. If it does, make sure the ECT is good.

mikeg205
08-28-2013, 06:18 PM
^^^^ what he said... what's the engine temp when this happens?

wheeler
08-28-2013, 08:46 PM
Check your relay switches. They are on at the back of the motor on top. Should be 3 of them. I run into the same problem a couple of years back. In and out of the water, thought it was pump, changed that and ran for a while and bam, down again....after a thorough inspection of all wires, fuses, switches, ignition blah, blah....we found it to be one of the relay switches. Pulled it apart and there was a burned spot on one of the prongs. Move it one way, boat would fire, move it another and boat would not.

relay switches are $14. keep one handy, it has happened to other boating friends of mine, and the first thing they do is replace the pump only to still have problems later.....

give it a look.

Footin
08-28-2013, 08:49 PM
Have you tried dancing on the motor box? hehehehe

Check the most simple items, cables and connections. Try wiggleing the relays, connections etc next time it wont start.

jkski
08-29-2013, 09:13 AM
I've been around the boat a few times when this has occurred and it is not battery or starter related as it will crank over just fine but never seems to fire. When it first comes off the trailer it fires right up and so long as you do not turn it off, it runs just fine but turn it off and it will not re-start. They have hooked-up diagnostics to it but unfortunately it is not throwing any codes that I am aware of, although a fellow MC owner ran diagnostics on it while on the water and thought the issue to the Air Idle Control Module. Certainly would make sense as it seems to be choking itself out when trying a warm/hot start but fires right up when cold. For what it is worth it is an MCX.
Hope this helps to get more thoughts rolling and get this boat back on the water.

JimN
08-29-2013, 09:32 AM
I've been around the boat a few times when this has occurred and it is not battery or starter related as it will crank over just fine but never seems to fire. When it first comes off the trailer it fires right up and so long as you do not turn it off, it runs just fine but turn it off and it will not re-start. They have hooked-up diagnostics to it but unfortunately it is not throwing any codes that I am aware of, although a fellow MC owner ran diagnostics on it while on the water and thought the issue to the Air Idle Control Module. Certainly would make sense as it seems to be choking itself out when trying a warm/hot start but fires right up when cold. For what it is worth it is an MCX.
Hope this helps to get more thoughts rolling and get this boat back on the water.

Opening the throttle would make it start if the IAC wasn't opening or if the ECT was causing too much fuel to be delivered when it's hot.

Electronic circuits don't operate correctly when some components are out of range and thermal problems WRT electronics are harder to diagnose, but not impossible. This one topic is why ALL dealers need to hire service techs with a solid electronics background.

mikeg205
08-29-2013, 09:33 AM
Cold start only... sounds like temp issue IMO. Check the T-stat - try running without it. the no start after running has been discussed here a number of times. Or - check ECT sensor - if it send wrong data ECU will not send enough gas to start which is what my 95 did....engine will just turn turn turn from starter. Hence JimN's advice of moving throttle forward to see if start.

Double D
08-29-2013, 09:40 AM
I was also there when our fellow TT member was running the diagnostics. When they tried to start it acted as if it was starving for something and there was a lot of fuel smell in the air, so we all guessed "AIR". He then 'exercised' the AIC (I think that was what he did) and it started right up. However, after running it back to the ramp and loading it up, he shut it off and tried starting it again, with no success.

I've been around the boat a few times when this has occurred and it is not battery or starter related as it will crank over just fine but never seems to fire. When it first comes off the trailer it fires right up and so long as you do not turn it off, it runs just fine but turn it off and it will not re-start. They have hooked-up diagnostics to it but unfortunately it is not throwing any codes that I am aware of, although a fellow MC owner ran diagnostics on it while on the water and thought the issue to the Air Idle Control Module. Certainly would make sense as it seems to be choking itself out when trying a warm/hot start but fires right up when cold. For what it is worth it is an MCX.
Hope this helps to get more thoughts rolling and get this boat back on the water.

Opening the throttle would make it start if the IAC wasn't opening or if the ECT was causing too much fuel to be delivered when it's hot.

Electronic circuits don't operate correctly when some components are out of range and thermal problems WRT electronics are harder to diagnose, but not impossible. This one topic is why ALL dealers need to hire service techs with a solid electronics background.

eriksen4
08-29-2013, 09:44 AM
Mine drove me crazy with same problem, although older 1991 Maristar. Ended up being the electronic ignition was breaking down after engine warmed up. When cooled off, boat cranked and started like a charm. Not troubleshooting your problem, just giving my experience. Good luck!!!

eurosysytem0
08-29-2013, 01:20 PM
Hi
Ive got an X7 and I am in the UK. I cannot offer you a solution (not clever enough) but I would be really appreciative if, when you solve the problem,you let us all know what fixed it.
A PM would be really helpful as I would hate to miss it on new posts. Good Luck

wheeler
08-29-2013, 05:11 PM
*cough*....relay switches??? At least try them.

3 big black things close together at the back of the engine on top....

Mgboyd25
08-29-2013, 06:02 PM
When you say "it would not completely turn over", you mean the starter is turning over very slowly, somewhat like when you have an almost dead battery? It may in fact be the starter itself. Several posts on here where that was the issue. Seems a little premature for a 2004 boat, but possible I'm sure. It would cost nothing to remove starter and have it bench checked at an auto parts store.

Mine had the slow hot start condition as well. It would just barely turn over, leaving you stranded. Next time, cold start in driveway, had no issues. Several cycles like that will drive you crazy. I replaced starter with a new Arco gear reduction type and problem solved. Starters can look fine and still be bad.

Of course, you should have already checked the cables, terminal connections, ground, etc. I'll say it before someone else does, Stop throwing parts at the problem until the problem is diagnosed, especially expensive ones like ecm's and fuel pumps.:(

Not sure why dealer would think the ecm is bad if it is not turning over? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue. Does it (crank) turning over freely, just doesn't start when hot?

I apologize it I wasn't clear enough but I think the starter is fine as it is cranking. It seems like it isn't getting enough fuel to get going fully.

Mgboyd25
08-29-2013, 06:03 PM
If the ECM replacement didn't cure the problem, I would hesitate to consider them AWESOME.

Did they connect it to a diagnostic computer to view the data? If not, why not? That would rule out a lot of possible causes.

Open the throttle a little and see if it starts. If it does, make sure the ECT is good.

Thanks for the input Jim, I will see what kind of data they received from the new ECM

Mgboyd25
08-29-2013, 06:03 PM
^^^^ what he said... what's the engine temp when this happens?

The engine temp is normal when this happens

Mgboyd25
08-29-2013, 06:05 PM
Check your relay switches. They are on at the back of the motor on top. Should be 3 of them. I run into the same problem a couple of years back. In and out of the water, thought it was pump, changed that and ran for a while and bam, down again....after a thorough inspection of all wires, fuses, switches, ignition blah, blah....we found it to be one of the relay switches. Pulled it apart and there was a burned spot on one of the prongs. Move it one way, boat would fire, move it another and boat would not.

relay switches are $14. keep one handy, it has happened to other boating friends of mine, and the first thing they do is replace the pump only to still have problems later.....

give it a look.

Thanks! I will check and see if that might have been the issue. My neighbor is an electrician and he said he had a similar problem with his mustang and that was the culprit

Mgboyd25
08-29-2013, 06:06 PM
Mine drove me crazy with same problem, although older 1991 Maristar. Ended up being the electronic ignition was breaking down after engine warmed up. When cooled off, boat cranked and started like a charm. Not troubleshooting your problem, just giving my experience. Good luck!!!

Wow that's interesting. How did you finally diagnose that as the problem?
Thanks for the input

JimN
08-29-2013, 07:17 PM
I was also there when our fellow TT member was running the diagnostics. When they tried to start it acted as if it was starving for something and there was a lot of fuel smell in the air, so we all guessed "AIR". He then 'exercised' the AIC (I think that was what he did) and it started right up. However, after running it back to the ramp and loading it up, he shut it off and tried starting it again, with no success.

It wasn't starving for air as much as it was delivering too much fuel. During cranking, the ECM is programmed to deliver fuel based on coolant temperature, barometric pressure (sent by the MAP sensor) and throttle position. If any of these is wrong, it will cause hard starting but a closed IAC will only require opening the throttle to start the engine. If the IAC is operating and it requires opening the throttle to get it to start, it's usually the ECT and if the MAP or TPS are sending bad info, it should start but it might surge, it will run like a dog, use a lot of gas and top end will suffer.

wheeler
08-30-2013, 08:02 AM
Thanks! I will check and see if that might have been the issue. My neighbor is an electrician and he said he had a similar problem with his mustang and that was the culprit

Mine just happened to be the fuel pump relay switch. drove me nuts for a year.

Mgboyd25
09-03-2013, 10:47 AM
Mine drove me crazy with same problem, although older 1991 Maristar. Ended up being the electronic ignition was breaking down after engine warmed up. When cooled off, boat cranked and started like a charm. Not troubleshooting your problem, just giving my experience. Good luck!!!

Well it ended up being the ignition module. Is that what you replaced?

I got a call from the dealership Saturday a.m. while I was skiing at a lake down the street from the dealership.

Good news: I used it all day Sunday without an issue. It actually seems to start much better than it ever has. There is no longer any hesitation on the ignition.

Bad news: They said they would not be able to refund the ECM ($1,500 part) as it has already been powered up. My issue with this is that I paid them to diagnose the issue and the said that was the part that needed to be replaced.
What do you guys think about this situation?

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 11:21 AM
Well it ended up being the ignition module. Is that what you replaced?

I got a call from the dealership Saturday a.m. while I was skiing at a lake down the street from the dealership.

Good news: I used it all day Sunday without an issue. It actually seems to start much better than it ever has. There is no longer any hesitation on the ignition.

Bad news: They said they would not be able to refund the ECM ($1,500 part) as it has already been powered up. My issue with this is that I paid them to diagnose the issue and the said that was the part that needed to be replaced.
What do you guys think about this situation?

That's going to be an issue.. do they still have the old one? If so, re-install and keep this one as a back up...now that you have it.

zsqure
09-03-2013, 11:26 AM
I would think it was returned as a "core exchange".

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 11:29 AM
I would think it was returned as a "core exchange".

there's a core value in an ECU besides the housing??? lol

Mgboyd25
09-03-2013, 04:22 PM
I still have the old one.
The new one is still installed but I can switch them out.

Double D
09-03-2013, 04:48 PM
I still have the old one.
The new one is still installed but I can switch them out.

Worst case, maybe try to sell it to a fellow member when theirs go's Ca-Putes!!!

thatsmrmastercraft
09-03-2013, 04:54 PM
A reputable dealer would make some arrangements to take back the ecm that they said was defective and turned out to be fine, assuming that they did the diagnosing and work.

JimN
09-03-2013, 06:19 PM
Well it ended up being the ignition module. Is that what you replaced?

I got a call from the dealership Saturday a.m. while I was skiing at a lake down the street from the dealership.

Good news: I used it all day Sunday without an issue. It actually seems to start much better than it ever has. There is no longer any hesitation on the ignition.

Bad news: They said they would not be able to refund the ECM ($1,500 part) as it has already been powered up. My issue with this is that I paid them to diagnose the issue and the said that was the part that needed to be replaced.
What do you guys think about this situation?

That's why I have a hard time believing the ECM is at fault in most cases- they can't find a definitive fault, so they blame the most expensive component. The IC module can be tested or replaced for a helluva lot less than an ECM and if they make a faulty diagnosis, it's on them, IMO. Your ECM worked, theirs didn't fix the problem. Ask the owner if he would take buying a $1500 part that didn't take care of the problem without going ballistic. They need to learn a lesson- stop replacing the most expensive parts first. $1500 would have paid for all of the sensors, labor to replace them and a lot of extra diagnostic time. I would not accept this. Their recommended part didn't do what they said it would and they should eat the cost. They're supposed to be professionals- that means making correct diagnoses, not guessing and hoping that an expensive part works.

You may have seen references to using a "parts cannon"- well,.....

mikeg205
09-03-2013, 06:21 PM
That's why I have a hard time believing the ECM is at fault in most cases- they can't find a definitive fault, so they blame the most expensive component. The IC module can be tested or replaced for a helluva lot less than an ECM and if they make a faulty diagnosis, it's on them, IMO. Your ECM worked, theirs didn't fix the problem. Ask the owner if he would take buying a $1500 part that didn't take care of the problem without going ballistic.

You got the old ECM back, right? They better not have tossed it- I'd sue for that.

You may have seen references to using a "parts cannon"- well,.....


He has it...

JimN
09-04-2013, 01:11 AM
He has it...

I thought I erased the part about who has the ECM after I read the other comments.