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Rossterman
08-06-2013, 11:15 AM
2001 205v w/ standard 310hp tbiengine. Noticed that the check engine light is staying on after starting. It dims somewhat and after a couple of minutes goes away. Press and temps Are fine. Could it be related to the fact I have a stock alternator and the stereo system draws way more power (due to specs that are ~80 amps per amp x 3)? In have a dual battery system and
Perko but usually leave both connected as I don't sit and listen to the stereo when the engine is off.

It starts fine and runs great- all the fluids are good and did the annual impeller install this year as well. Any ideas would be appreciated (I am going to get the alternator rewound
This year)

Rossterman
08-07-2013, 05:05 PM
Anyone have any ideas? Goes from bright red to slowly dimmer until goes out in a fwe minutes. I added a small amount of ATF to the vdrive but didn't change anything. Also found one connector on the vdrive where the sensor wires aren't very tight on the plug and will try tightening the connector...

Rossterman
08-08-2013, 06:21 PM
Did the paperclip check today and it isn't storing any codes. Could Ecu be sending a false signal? Has anyone ever changed out the indicator light?

skitilldark
08-09-2013, 10:10 AM
Do you still have the original 45 amp alternator or have you upgraded that? I had this issue on a 01 X9. Alternator was not keeping up with the draw of the amps. First(before upgrading the alternator) I went to blue top optima's -2 of them. That fixed it for a time. I eventually had to upgrade to a 95amp alternator and that did the trick.

Rossterman
08-09-2013, 10:27 AM
Do you still have the original 45 amp alternator or have you upgraded that? I had this issue on a 01 X9. Alternator was not keeping up with the draw of the amps. First(before upgrading the alternator) I went to blue top optima's -2 of them. That fixed it for a time. I eventually had to upgrade to a 95amp alternator and that did the trick.

Skitilldark,
So to understand correctly, you would get the check engine light coming on because charging amps were low due to more drain on the system than the stock alternator (which I currently have)?

And once you upgraded the alternator, no more light?

I know the amp draw is exceeding the alternator based on the specsJust I haven't had an issue until now (I do put a charger on it each time before I go out which I haven't done this time as out house boating for 10 days on the lake so maybe this is the issue?)

JimN
08-09-2013, 10:55 AM
2001 205v w/ standard 310hp tbiengine. Noticed that the check engine light is staying on after starting. It dims somewhat and after a couple of minutes goes away. Press and temps Are fine. Could it be related to the fact I have a stock alternator and the stereo system draws way more power (due to specs that are ~80 amps per amp x 3)? In have a dual battery system and
Perko but usually leave both connected as I don't sit and listen to the stereo when the engine is off.

It starts fine and runs great- all the fluids are good and did the annual impeller install this year as well. Any ideas would be appreciated (I am going to get the alternator rewound
This year)

If you can do simple math, 3x80=240. That's about 4 times the current capacity of the alternator, worst case, with nothing else operating. Have you thought about the possible effects of beating the shyte out of your alternator?

When a regulator and rectifier are beaten to death, they get hot and they don't do what they're designed to, as well as they should. By leabing that alternator in the boat and not doing this right, you're risking damage to every piece of electronics in the boat, including the most important one- the ECM. The ECM is what causes the check engine light to go on, so you may have already damaged it.

You can't do what is needed with the original alternator. Tell the people at the place that's rebuilding it about all of the extra amplifiers, battery and how you use it. If you don't, you can't get what you need and you will need to replace the charging lead.

Rossterman
08-09-2013, 11:01 AM
Jim,
Good point but thought the big risk was only running down the batteries. I'll disconnect everything for now and see if the situation improves. Hopefully nothing damaged permanently..(

JimN
08-09-2013, 11:33 AM
Jim,
Good point but thought the big risk was only running down the batteries. I'll disconnect everything for now and see if the situation improves. Hopefully nothing damaged permanently..(

Ever touched something that was passing high current? An extreme example is a heating element on an electric range or in a water heater. Heat is what ultimately kills electronics. Excessive current is the means by which the heat becomes extreme.

The easy way to check- Turn the stereo off.

How loud is the stereo when you play it?

Here's the function of an alternator (by original design), in a nutshell- It's mainly there to recharge the battery after cranking and to run anything that was installed by the manufacturer in the initial build that is drawing current while the engine runs. That is all it is designed to do. NOT recharge totally dead batteries, NOT supply current for two batteries, NOT supply current for power amps that might draw as much as yours could. The OEM alternator is rated for about 70A, maybe.

Think about this- if they had planned for this kind of current draw in the boat's design, they would have installed an alternator that could support it.

skitilldark
08-09-2013, 11:58 AM
Skitilldark,
So to understand correctly, you would get the check engine light coming on because charging amps were low due to more drain on the system than the stock alternator (which I currently have)?

And once you upgraded the alternator, no more light?

I know the amp draw is exceeding the alternator based on the specsJust I haven't had an issue until now (I do put a charger on it each time before I go out which I haven't done this time as out house boating for 10 days on the lake so maybe this is the issue?)

Yes. That is what mine was doing. The subs would stop working first though. Not sure if yours does that. My subs would quit working and then the check engine light would come on. If I revved the engine up the check engine light would either brighten or go off altogether.

skitilldark
08-09-2013, 12:04 PM
Skitilldark,
So to understand correctly, you would get the check engine light coming on because charging amps were low due to more drain on the system than the stock alternator (which I currently have)?

And once you upgraded the alternator, no more light?

I know the amp draw is exceeding the alternator based on the specsJust I haven't had an issue until now (I do put a charger on it each time before I go out which I haven't done this time as out house boating for 10 days on the lake so maybe this is the issue?)

I'll admit that I suck in math, but my amp draw is still within an acceptible limit on the 95amp alternator. But I'm not doing that math on peak power, just what I am drawing(I rarely turn it up over half volume). But Jmn is absolutely correct about what an alternator is designed to do. Even now I cannot let any of the batteries go below half charge or everything goes haywire. In order to run my system I have to maintain the gels and keep a constant trickle on them. but I've had it working for 8 years like that. The only issues are when the boat battery or one of the gels starts to fail. (Or an inexperienced driver plows the X9 bow through rollers and fills the boat with 12 inches of water.) I had to wire an emergency disconnect switch for that!

Rossterman
08-09-2013, 01:01 PM
Thanks for everyone's feedback. Disconnected amps, switched to 1 battery and will try this to see what happens. Typically we don't play the stereo loud unless underway but maybe this has been slowly draining batteries? Boat starts fine and shows a little over 12 volts on the guage.

Started up and light still stays on dim but seems to go out faster now. Hopefully nothing damaged in the system and will check over all connections to make sure they are all tight. Will let folks know what happens after I take the kids wake boarding in an hour or 2

Thanks
Ross

Rossterman
08-10-2013, 12:13 PM
RAN yesterday with single battery and no tunes. Check engine light stayed on whole time. Switched to the aux battery and after running a few minutes, the light went off. When restarting, light would go out immediately. Worked fine for an hour and now the light is coming back on. Wonder if batteries could be the issue? They are 3 years old.

clrussell
08-10-2013, 12:19 PM
Is the alt for sure charging?

JimN
08-10-2013, 01:53 PM
RAN yesterday with single battery and no tunes. Check engine light stayed on whole time. Switched to the aux battery and after running a few minutes, the light went off. When restarting, light would go out immediately. Worked fine for an hour and now the light is coming back on. Wonder if batteries could be the issue? They are 3 years old.

Take the alternator in for testing. If the rectifier is bad (changes the original AC voltage to DC), AC will get through and cause anything connected to it to malfunction in ways that are specific to each. AC is not what batteries need and under heavy load, the rectifier will leak AC, which is one of the main reasons an OEM alternator rated for 57A (or 70A) can't be used with a load from multiple power amps and depleted batteries. The heat generated is from the excessive current and will kill the alternator by itself but the AC leakage will kill the rest in its own time, depending on how sensitive to AC they are.

The root problem- your alternator, charging lead and ground cable aren't heavy-duty enough to supply what you're demanding. Whether the batteries have died because of it is really moot. Fix the real problem first, then see how well it works. You will need to beef up all three of these- you can put the largest alternator in existence on it but if the charging lead and ground cables aren't adequate for the task, it won't matter. You can't force more current through a thin cable without problems.

skitilldark
08-10-2013, 09:17 PM
Take the alternator in for testing. If the rectifier is bad (changes the original AC voltage to DC), AC will get through and cause anything connected to it to malfunction in ways that are specific to each. AC is not what batteries need and under heavy load, the rectifier will leak AC, which is one of the main reasons an OEM alternator rated for 57A (or 70A) can't be used with a load from multiple power amps and depleted batteries. The heat generated is from the excessive current and will kill the alternator by itself but the AC leakage will kill the rest in its own time, depending on how sensitive to AC they are.

The root problem- your alternator, charging lead and ground cable aren't heavy-duty enough to supply what you're demanding. Whether the batteries have died because of it is really moot. Fix the real problem first, then see how well it works. You will need to beef up all three of these- you can put the largest alternator in existence on it but if the charging lead and ground cables aren't adequate for the task, it won't matter. You can't force more current through a thin cable without problems.

JMN,

Do you think this rectifier thing might be contributing to the phantom "anomaly" that is happening to my boat(see Engine thread-"Guardian(limp)Mode for no reason")? This is one thing I have not thought about...

JimN
08-11-2013, 12:18 AM
JMN,

Do you think this rectifier thing might be contributing to the phantom "anomaly" that is happening to my boat(see Engine thread-"Guardian(limp)Mode for no reason")? This is one thing I have not thought about...

From my last post, "If the rectifier is bad (changes the original AC voltage to DC), AC will get through and cause anything connected to it to malfunction in ways that are specific to each.", so it's possible. RPM reduction (the real name for what everyone calls 'limp mode' is usually caused by overheating but if AC is getting to the ECM, it should be blocked at the B+, in theory. I wouldn't take chances with a $1000+ controller, though.

skitilldark
08-11-2013, 11:02 AM
From my last post, "If the rectifier is bad (changes the original AC voltage to DC), AC will get through and cause anything connected to it to malfunction in ways that are specific to each.", so it's possible. RPM reduction (the real name for what everyone calls 'limp mode' is usually caused by overheating but if AC is getting to the ECM, it should be blocked at the B+, in theory. I wouldn't take chances with a $1000+ controller, though.

That makes good sense. So is my only option to go back to the original alternator? Or can something be done at the rectifier of the larger alternator to help protect everything else? When the stereo was originally wired and I went to the larger alternator, they upgraded all the wires that they could(I don't know enough about wiring to know what they did and did not upgrade), and the system did work flawlessly for 8 years. This may be extreme, but what about adding a bracket and running the original alternator for the boat, and moving the 95 amp alternator to just powering the stereo on a completely isolated system?

JimN
08-11-2013, 02:09 PM
That makes good sense. So is my only option to go back to the original alternator? Or can something be done at the rectifier of the larger alternator to help protect everything else? When the stereo was originally wired and I went to the larger alternator, they upgraded all the wires that they could(I don't know enough about wiring to know what they did and did not upgrade), and the system did work flawlessly for 8 years. This may be extreme, but what about adding a bracket and running the original alternator for the boat, and moving the 95 amp alternator to just powering the stereo on a completely isolated system?

The shell of an alternator limits its capacity- the armature and field windings generate the current, but the number of windings determines how much current it can generate. Liwise, the rectifier's physical size has something to do with it's voltage and current limits and unless the regulator is outside of the alternator, it will be limited, The engine's brackets and accessory arrangement also limit the size of the alternator in order to avoid making custom brackets. If you don't mind making new brackets, that would leave the door open to other possibilities but you'll have to make sure the new alternator has enough room and can cool effectively.

If you look for an automotive electric rebuilder near you, they should be able to let you know some of your options. Letting them see your boat would be best, so they can see the physical limitations. You may be able to find someone, like LesTech (sp?), who builds dual output alternators. These have been used for a long time for industrial applications and competition car audio vehicles.

Rossterman
08-13-2013, 03:08 PM
Well,
Checked the 2 batteries (both have 4/10 build dates) and found water level was below the plates in a couple of cells each. Topped off and no change to the cel. Put in a fresh battery today and cel still stays on so must have damaged the alternator. Batteries seem to stay charged so probably a rectifier issue. Looks to be a 3 wire leece Neville 50 amp unit. Any suggestions on where to buy an exact fit 90 amp replacement? Want to get back on the water soon so will send original out to be fixed so I have a spare on the shelf

Ross

JimN
08-13-2013, 09:26 PM
Well,
Checked the 2 batteries (both have 4/10 build dates) and found water level was below the plates in a couple of cells each. Topped off and no change to the cel. Put in a fresh battery today and cel still stays on so must have damaged the alternator. Batteries seem to stay charged so probably a rectifier issue. Looks to be a 3 wire leece Neville 50 amp unit. Any suggestions on where to buy an exact fit 90 amp replacement? Want to get back on the water soon so will send original out to be fixed so I have a spare on the shelf

Ross

If the batteries hold their charge for a week or more, the rectifier is OK, but it may break down under load, so it won't "create" DC the way it should. 50A is pretty light for two batteries and additional accessories so if you're going to have it rebuilt [I]after having it tested[I], they should be able to upgrade it to higher current capacity.

If you have an auto electric rebuilder, they'll probably stock what you need.

Rossterman
08-14-2013, 09:32 PM
Looked at back of alternator. Says leece Neville 8rg2062 and sales # 105-306 looks like these are the regulator p/ns not the alternator. Anyone have a p/n for the original alternator? 2001 w/310hp predator...

Rossterman
08-15-2013, 10:04 PM
Checked batteries today and they were full so the alternator must be charging. Kinda suspected that as the boat ran 5 days without problems without having to charge the batteries remotely.

JimN - could the batteries charge but still cause the check engine light to stay on if they were getting AC voltage? Only other post I found with this problem turned out to be the MEFI was bad. Hope that isn't the case with mine as I understand they Are pretty expensive?

Will pull the alternator to get the model number and see about having in upgraded.

I wish I could find someone to swap out and verify before I. Went that route.

JimN
08-15-2013, 11:14 PM
Checked batteries today and they were full so the alternator must be charging. Kinda suspected that as the boat ran 5 days without problems without having to charge the batteries remotely.

JimN - could the batteries charge but still cause the check engine light to stay on if they were getting AC voltage? Only other post I found with this problem turned out to be the MEFI was bad. Hope that isn't the case with mine as I understand they Are pretty expensive?

Will pull the alternator to get the model number and see about having in upgraded.

I wish I could find someone to swap out and verify before I. Went that route.

You don't have MEFI I- that was long gone by 2001.

Do you have a multi-meter? Set it to AC Volts and measure while it's running. If you see any AC voltage, it has a problem.

Rossterman
08-16-2013, 02:05 AM
You don't have MEFI I- that was long gone by 2001.

Do you have a multi-meter? Set it to AC Volts and measure while it's running. If you see any AC voltage, it has a problem.

Jim,
I think it has MEFI-4 or 3 based on pics. I'll try the AC test- thanks!

Rossterman
08-16-2013, 08:19 PM
Took it to several places to have it tested today and no one was able to do it because their test machines don't include this model of alternator :( anyone know of a non marine cross reference to for the leece Neville 8rm2084k?)

Also looks like the maximum output I can get from the stock case size is 72 amps (model 8mr2058PA ). The case is bigger on the other units. Anyone ever had the stock one rebuilt? If so, what amps were they able to get out of it?

Thanks
Ross

JimN
08-16-2013, 10:40 PM
Took it to several places to have it tested today and no one was able to do it because their test machines don't include this model of alternator :( anyone know of a non marine cross reference to for the leece Neville 8rm2084k?)

Also looks like the maximum output I can get from the stock case size is 72 amps (model 8mr2058PA ). The case is bigger on the other units. Anyone ever had the stock one rebuilt? If so, what amps were they able to get out of it?

Thanks
Ross

Can you post a photo? If it has the case I think, it can be upgraded to ~105A.

Rossterman
08-17-2013, 12:37 AM
Here you go- it is a prestolite 8mr case.

JimN
08-17-2013, 01:42 PM
NAPA part number 90059176 out is 130A.

Rossterman
08-23-2013, 08:17 PM
Installed new 90 amp alternator and 4 guage wiring today. Fired her up and still have dim CEL light :( .started pulling sensors and found that the temperature switch (not guage sending unit but the one that comes on if overheated) was bad.

So, need to get a replacement (possibly cross to a car part #?) and will fix that next. At least charging system can handle everything OK now...