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skitilldark
07-30-2013, 10:07 AM
(Excuse the new thread but didn't have time to check all...)
I have an 01 X9 with the MCX that is going into guardian mode for no reason at varying speeds. Most of the time it is when running about 30 mph or after an extended run. Temp is fine, oil pressure is fine. I have a 160 degree thermostat in it which also seems to be functioning properly. No leaks from water pump and a new impeller for the season with about 35 hours on it. The dealer cannot locate the issue. It throws no codes on diagnostics. They have had it in the water several times and cannot replicate it. As soon as I get it back, it will do it for me within the first day. I haven't checked myself to see if I am not somehow throwing off radiation...but unless someone on these boards has an answer I guess that is next. .Anyone ever had this issue?

djr47
07-30-2013, 11:56 AM
What do you mean by gaurdian mode? I'm having a simliar issue with my 2005 X-star with an MCX. Take it to the dealer and they said they cannot read the codes because they are soft codes and are deleted off the computer after 3 warm up and cool down cycles.

Dealer fixed what they thought was the issue and the next weekend we take the boat out and it throws check engine on the first set back! The boat looses power and sits in neutral flashing check engine with the engine running but no control with the throttle (is this what you mean by gaurdian mode?) We turn the boat off then on and it works fine.

I think my issue has something to do with my perfect pass as I only experience the check engine with perfect pass on. Looking at buying my own code reader to scan the code as soon as it happens out on the water to solve the problem once and for all.

willyt
07-30-2013, 12:24 PM
its uh... limp mode... not guardian mode..

check your fuel pressure

skitilldark
07-30-2013, 12:30 PM
That makes perfect sense to me. I have suspected the perfect pass, but didn't have mine on when it happened so I discounted it. But maybe you don't have to have it on for it to affect it. (Guardian mode is the computer stepping in and shutting everything down to about 2000 or less rpm/s. Won't let you go any faster-to protect the engine I suppose in case of overheating or low oil pressure).

Haven't heard that about the deleting codes but that makes sense too. I have also suspected either a water pump or thermostat that is about to fail or at least the sensor thinks so, but discounted that because the dealer said it wasn't throwing out a code. Every time the guardian mode kicks in the first thing I do is look at the temp guage. It spikes to 170, then comes back down to 160 after a couple of seconds. Like yours the guardian mode goes away by just turning the key off and back on. Sometimes it might be another week before it does it again. But just need to get to the bottom of it so I'll stop pissing off skiers by suddenly stopping!

skitilldark
07-30-2013, 12:32 PM
Fuel pressure is always dead on. When it does it, I pop the guage on it to check. (I've put three fuel pumps in the boat...so that is usually the first place I go).

skitilldark
08-08-2013, 04:04 PM
Okay guys, I need the smartest MC guys on these boards to weigh in on this if possible. It is getting worse but 5 weeks later and still no one can solve it. I say worse because when it first started happening, I could kill the switch, turn it back on and it might be two days before it did it again. Now, it does it within 10 minutes every time. Since I am rapidly losing friends who happen to be riding when the boat goes into limp mode, I've got to come up with a solution. I tried some earlier advice of checking for corrosion between the coil and the ECM, but nothing there. As you can see on the video link, I checked fuel pressure during the event and the psi is normal. The engine surges between 1500 and 2200 rpm during the event. It NEVER clears itself up. Only killing the ignition will make it go away. Throttle position is irrelevant. The cruise control is off. A new occurance is that when I kill the ignition and fire it back up, at least one guage goes dead. Sometimes it is the speedo, sometimes it it temp guage, sometimes it is the oil pressure guage. But mostly it is the speedo or the temp guage. Never the fuel guage or the tach. I have no idea what that could mean but thought I should include it. Notice in the video that the CHECK ENGINE light never comes on during the event.

To clarify the first post, (I always get the LTR and MCX confused), my engine is not an MCX, it is the LTR. And you CANNOT get the boat to experience this anomaly when it is cool. It only happens after the boat has been on a fairly hard run(30-37mph)with varying throttle inputs. The dealer had the boat for three weeks and ran two tankfuls of gas through it trying to make it do this and they could not. I got the boat back and did it within 30 minutes. The ONLY difference between me and the dealer's driving the boat is I always have a skier or tuber, etc and have several people in the boat. They did not. Other than that I can't think of anything I do different that could be triggering the event. PLEASE HELP IF YOU CAN!!!

Here are a couple of videos of the "anomaly";

http://youtu.be/-_ZET4BRR3E

http://youtu.be/4Sp2PPcMjy4

1redTA
08-08-2013, 05:51 PM
what are the temps when it does this? Does it do it when the engine is first started?

1redTA
08-08-2013, 05:53 PM
Whoops just re read your last post Sounds like something is getting warm and breaking contact. This could be a coil, ignition control module one of the two temp sensors. May need to have these checked

skitilldark
08-08-2013, 06:12 PM
what are the temps when it does this? Does it do it when the engine is first started?

The temps hold pretty steady. For the times when the temp guage is working, I notice an immediate spike from 160 where it stays pretty much all the time, to 170 for a few seconds and then it goes back to 160. I was attributing that to the fact that the boat was traveling at operating speed but then suddenly cuts back to 1500 rpm when the "anomaly" kicks in. Not sure though. I first suspected a temp deal because it only does it after the boat has been run for at least 20 minutes, but the dealer says everything with the impellor and water pump check out.

skitilldark
08-08-2013, 06:14 PM
what are the temps when it does this? Does it do it when the engine is first started?

Whoops just re read your last post Sounds like something is getting warm and breaking contact. This could be a coil, ignition control module one of the two temp sensors. May need to have these checked

Don't think they have checked the ignition control module. I'll email them with that suggestion. Thanks.

skitilldark
08-11-2013, 09:52 AM
Update from the dealer; they have checked every single electrical connection in the boat(looking for a possible ground that could be causing it), the ECM inside and out, all related sensors, the coil and all associated wiring, the temperature equation(water pump, impeller, etc.). They have basically told me that everything in the boat checks out. They are suggesting now that I replace the computer. I'm fine to do that, but they also say it might not BE the computer and they can't refund the price of it should that not be the cause. So I am stuck. As of now I have a 4000 pound stereo system and that is about it. Where do I turn now? Does anyone know of a 209/X9 that has been totalled or junked that I could buy the computer out of for a lot cheaper than a new one?

1redTA
08-11-2013, 10:04 AM
The parts I was talking about don't really get checked, they get replaced because of a short inside the part at temperature. I'd start with the cheapest parts first when blind troubleshooting.

Mark rsa2au
08-12-2013, 07:09 AM
Mate, a long shot here! Check your battery connections and earth cables.

My motor was doing some strange things. Go into limp home mode and the gauges would stop working. Almost always when I was skiing so I asked why, I am the heaviest, ski the hardest and need all 310hp to drag me out so the motor was always warm and worked hardest when I skied.

A full check of the electrics and I found the battery connections loose. Replaced these along with new cables for earth and positive and that specific issue is now resolved.

JimN
08-12-2013, 08:30 AM
its uh... limp mode... not guardian mode..

check your fuel pressure

Delphi NEVER called it "limp mode"- it's called "RPM Reduction".

JimN
08-12-2013, 08:37 AM
What do you mean by gaurdian mode? I'm having a simliar issue with my 2005 X-star with an MCX. Take it to the dealer and they said they cannot read the codes because they are soft codes and are deleted off the computer after 3 warm up and cool down cycles.

Dealer fixed what they thought was the issue and the next weekend we take the boat out and it throws check engine on the first set back! The boat looses power and sits in neutral flashing check engine with the engine running but no control with the throttle (is this what you mean by gaurdian mode?) We turn the boat off then on and it works fine.

I think my issue has something to do with my perfect pass as I only experience the check engine with perfect pass on. Looking at buying my own code reader to scan the code as soon as it happens out on the water to solve the problem once and for all.

IIRC, it was three key on, throttle max/min three times, key off cycles that cleared codes.

If the dealer wasn't using a diagnostic computer, they need to get in the game. This allows them to not only read the data in real time, it also lets them take a snapshot of what's happening at any moment in time and this needs to be done several times, to see if something changes when the throttle is static.

JimN
08-12-2013, 08:46 AM
Okay guys, I need the smartest MC guys on these boards to weigh in on this if possible. It is getting worse but 5 weeks later and still no one can solve it. I say worse because when it first started happening, I could kill the switch, turn it back on and it might be two days before it did it again. Now, it does it within 10 minutes every time. Since I am rapidly losing friends who happen to be riding when the boat goes into limp mode, I've got to come up with a solution. I tried some earlier advice of checking for corrosion between the coil and the ECM, but nothing there. As you can see on the video link, I checked fuel pressure during the event and the psi is normal. The engine surges between 1500 and 2200 rpm during the event. It NEVER clears itself up. Only killing the ignition will make it go away. Throttle position is irrelevant. The cruise control is off. A new occurance is that when I kill the ignition and fire it back up, at least one guage goes dead. Sometimes it is the speedo, sometimes it it temp guage, sometimes it is the oil pressure guage. But mostly it is the speedo or the temp guage. Never the fuel guage or the tach. I have no idea what that could mean but thought I should include it. Notice in the video that the CHECK ENGINE light never comes on during the event.

To clarify the first post, (I always get the LTR and MCX confused), my engine is not an MCX, it is the LTR. And you CANNOT get the boat to experience this anomaly when it is cool. It only happens after the boat has been on a fairly hard run(30-37mph)with varying throttle inputs. The dealer had the boat for three weeks and ran two tankfuls of gas through it trying to make it do this and they could not. I got the boat back and did it within 30 minutes. The ONLY difference between me and the dealer's driving the boat is I always have a skier or tuber, etc and have several people in the boat. They did not. Other than that I can't think of anything I do different that could be triggering the event. PLEASE HELP IF YOU CAN!!!

Here are a couple of videos of the "anomaly";

http://youtu.be/-_ZET4BRR3E

http://youtu.be/4Sp2PPcMjy4

Do you ever look at the volt meter? If it's reading correctly, it's waaaaaaayyyy low and low voltage will definitely make it run badly. Using a diagnostic computer allows seeing the voltage sent to the ECM, which can be compared with the dash gauge- if the ECM sees a different voltage, it indicates that the engine's wiring needs to be checked.

What was added to the boat after it was manufactured? Look at the installation of ALL accessories and make sure nothing could be causing this. Disconnect all of them to make sure it runs consistently before re-connecting them, one by one.

There's no reason a dealer should release a boat without fixing any problem.

If you want to check the ECM, send it to Indmar.

JimN
08-12-2013, 08:47 AM
Mate, a long shot here! Check your battery connections and earth cables.

That's not a long shot, it's one of the first things that should be checked.

skitilldark
08-12-2013, 10:13 AM
Thanks to everyone for the advice.

I am going to go into seclusion if it ends up a loose battery connection, however.

I am pretty positive it is electrical since we had problems all last summer with the alternator. That issue was resolved when the alternator shop discovered a loose wire inside the alternator that would lose contact when hot and kill the alternator. But we replaced just about everything related to the alternator(wires, etc) AND the main boat battery, so I haven't been paying attention there.

Thanks again! I'll let you know what happens.

JimN
08-12-2013, 10:20 AM
Thanks to everyone for the advice.

I am going to go into seclusion if it ends up a loose battery connection, however.

I am pretty positive it is electrical since we had problems all last summer with the alternator. That issue was resolved when the alternator shop discovered a loose wire inside the alternator that would lose contact when hot and kill the alternator. But we replaced just about everything related to the alternator(wires, etc) AND the main boat battery, so I haven't been paying attention there.

Thanks again! I'll let you know what happens.

And a battery connection isn't electrical?

Make sure the charging lead isn't too short and pulled tight or the nut holding it on isn't loose.

skitilldark
09-21-2013, 12:24 PM
VERDICT...KINDA

I had two mechanics ride with me in the boat for 4 hours with diagnostics hooked up to everything possible. The boat never went into limp mode for them(of course)... But we found some really puzzling things; we could see the voltage getting to each plug in the boat and after a few minutes of normal ranges, the coil that controlled cylinders 1 and 4 began sending crazy electronics to those two cylinders. They would spike really high and then drop really low. During this time the engine was working normally(no misses, etc, plenty of power). So we stopped and switched the 1 and 4 coil pack with the one above it (3 and 7 I think), but kept the plug order the same. Again around 3400 rpm and higher the coil started sending those crazy highs and lows only is time, cylinders 1 and 4 were the only ones behaving normally. The other 6 were going crazy!?! This is so bizarre because the engine seems to perform normally. VERDICT: faulty ECM or 1 coil pack?

Next up (and JimN will be proven the electronic genius he is) we tested the alternator output under normal operation. The voltage the alternator is sending out should be more consistent like a straight line hovering around 12 volts or so, but mine looked more like a seismograph. It was wildly fluctuating between 14 and 6 volts. VERDICT: Faulty diode?

So of course the next weekend when I didn't have the mechanics in the boat it went into limp mode. This time I noticed something I had not noticed before; during limp mode the small speed indicator on the perfect pass was reading crazy numbers. It would fluctuate between the actual speed (20 mph) and 65 mph with the numbers all over the place. I had eliminated the perfect pass as a culprit in this early in the summer because I never had it turned on when the limp mode would happen. But just for laughs the next time the boat went into limp mode, I unplugged all the power going to the cruise and bam! The boat immediately lit back up. So far, no more issues at all with limp mode.

It was the perfect pass all along. There are still some crazy gremlins though so I am going to replace the alternator, and replace the coils and ECM. Just to make sure.

JimN
09-21-2013, 12:37 PM
Start by replacing the one coil pack that.was on cylinders 1&4- if that doesn't fix it, check the Ignition Control Module' ground. I would suspect the IC module befoer the ECM and I ALWAYS suspect bad ground connections before anythibg else.

Someone here replaced their ECM on the recommendation of their dealer and it wasn't the problem- the dealer wouldn't let them return it.

CantRepeat
09-21-2013, 12:38 PM
Start by replacing the one coil pack that.was on cylinders 1&4- if that doesn't fix it, check the Ignition Control Module' ground. I would suspect the IC module befoer the ECM and I ALWAYS suspect bad ground connections before anythibg else.

Someone here replaced their ECM on the recommendation of their dealer and it wasn't the problem- the dealer wouldn't let them return it.

OUCH!!

skitilldark
09-22-2013, 12:25 PM
Start by replacing the one coil pack that.was on cylinders 1&4- if that doesn't fix it, check the Ignition Control Module' ground. I would suspect the IC module befoer the ECM and I ALWAYS suspect bad ground connections before anythibg else.

Someone here replaced their ECM on the recommendation of their dealer and it wasn't the problem- the dealer wouldn't let them return it.

Yeah, and mastercraft is REAL proud of them. I was quoted $1500.00. That's good advice on the coil pack. Do you think I could find that from an auto parts store? Save a little on the MC markup?

CantRepeat
09-22-2013, 12:49 PM
Yeah, and mastercraft is REAL proud of them. I was quoted $1500.00. That's good advice on the coil pack. Do you think I could find that from an auto parts store? Save a little on the MC markup?

It's either going to come from MC or Indmar but I don't think Indmar sell direct to the public. You can always call them and ask.

Likewise, you could find a used one and reflash it with your motors current CAL file which appears to be ltrmc36.cal

JimN
09-22-2013, 02:00 PM
Yeah, and mastercraft is REAL proud of them. I was quoted $1500.00. That's good advice on the coil pack. Do you think I could find that from an auto parts store? Save a little on the MC markup?

There's very little on these engines that ISN'T sourced from GM and the coils are the same as what comes on Northstar engines. The ECM can be bought from other sources, too. The dealer should have shipped the ECM to Indmar or MC for testing, rather than just replacing it.

skitilldark
09-22-2013, 11:34 PM
There's very little on these engines that ISN'T sourced from GM and the coils are the same as what comes on Northstar engines. The ECM can be bought from other sources, too. The dealer should have shipped the ECM to Indmar or MC for testing, rather than just replacing it.


I haven't bought the coil or ECM yet so I am definitely interested in GM sourced parts. Any idea on how to identify the GM numbers for the LTR? I want to try your idea and replace that 1/4 coil pack because I think that will solve it. Maybe I can avoid the ECM altogether.

JimN
09-23-2013, 08:29 AM
I haven't bought the coil or ECM yet so I am definitely interested in GM sourced parts. Any idea on how to identify the GM numbers for the LTR? I want to try your idea and replace that 1/4 coil pack because I think that will solve it. Maybe I can avoid the ECM altogether.

Isn't the part number on the coil pack?

Google for info about how to test the IC module, too.

skitilldark
09-23-2013, 11:13 AM
Isn't the part number on the coil pack?

Google for info about how to test the IC module, too.

I looked, but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. Couldn't see any numbers or scan bars, etc. The coils are all the original ones so I would think the numbers would be there somewhere.

skitilldark
09-23-2013, 11:14 AM
It's either going to come from MC or Indmar but I don't think Indmar sell direct to the public. You can always call them and ask.

Likewise, you could find a used one and reflash it with your motors current CAL file which appears to be ltrmc36.cal

How on earth do you know that? It amazes me how smart the people on these boards are...

CantRepeat
09-23-2013, 12:27 PM
How on earth do you know that? It amazes me how smart the people on these boards are...

Until recently Indmar had anonymous access to their FTP site. I just downloaded everything and started reading all the bulletins, service article and went through all the CAL files.

The guys that work Indmar's tech line are extremely nice and helpful when it comes to questions. We also have TT member that works for them, EngineNut (Larry). EngineNut is very smart when it comes to all things Indmar.

I also have cable needed to flash ECMs which I purchased from Rinda Tech.