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View Full Version : First Start of the year, ran but then stopped.


College Kid
07-21-2013, 11:24 AM
Hooked everything back up, put in plugs etc.

After a few pumps of the throttle the engine fired right up. There was some pretty bad belt whine and realized I had not re tightened the belt via the alternator.

I tighten it up, go to start the boat, has a bit more trouble but fires up.
Let it run for about 1 min, shut it down to add some belt dressing, then go to re start and won't fire up.

I can hear the engine spinning, but the pulleys don't spin or run at all. Almost seems like they aren't connected.

Looking for thoughts and ideas to check??? I am headed back out to try it again with the belt looser

Dynamite Spike
07-21-2013, 11:40 AM
Sounds like a seized water pump or alternator. Take the belt off and see if you can turn the pulleys by hand

College Kid
07-21-2013, 11:51 AM
Loosen belt, it didn't help

Alt spins by hand as does the chrome pulley (don't know the name of it). I have removed the water pump and it spins easily.

I put a wrench on the lowest pulley (wish I knew the names of these things) It turns but takes A LOT of force to move it.

As I have never manually turned over an engine I am not really sure how tough it should be to move.

Thoughts?

mikeg205
07-21-2013, 12:38 PM
If engine turns the pulley connected to harmonic drives alternator and water pump. Shoot some video and post on youtube and give us a link... don't even have to start just let it turn for a second or 2.

College Kid
07-21-2013, 01:02 PM
If engine turns the pulley connected to harmonic drives alternator and water pump. Shoot some video and post on youtube and give us a link... don't even have to start just let it turn for a second or 2.

Will do,

I put it all back together and gave it a crank and it turned. Didn't start but the pulleys do all spin.

researching I found this thread and decided to pull the starter to see what's going on there. I noticed a lot of metal shavings that look new.

I'll grab some pictures, and maybe a video if I can figure out how to upload it.

keep the comments coming.

College Kid
07-21-2013, 01:11 PM
So some pictures of the flywheel and starter.

Could this be an issue with the starter not able to engage the fly wheel?

The starter spins, but doesn't seem to be engaging the fly wheel, or is it engaged all the the time?

College Kid
07-21-2013, 01:31 PM
I cleaned up the shavings and put it all together, now the starter only clicks?

Thought maybe the battery might have lost power so went to remove the leads, and noticed the positive terminal and wire were very hot. this might be un related but seemed odd to me.

for now I have thrown the battery on the charger to make sure it is good to go. Dash guage was reading around 9 or so.

Thinking I may need to rebuild the starter now?

Any other thoughts?

jhall0711
07-21-2013, 01:32 PM
The noise your hearing "when the pulleys are not moving" is that starter turning without turning over the motor. The flywheel teeth appear to be stripped pretty badly in that one spot. By turning the motor by hand IE moving the big pulley at the bottom that is hard to turn, you can move it to a good part of the flywheel to get the starter to engage again; but that is only a temporary fix.

College Kid
07-21-2013, 01:35 PM
The noise your hearing "when the pulleys are not moving" is that starter turning without turning over the motor. The flywheel teeth appear to be stripped pretty badly in that one spot. By turning the motor by hand IE moving the big pulley at the bottom that is hard to turn, you can move it to a good part of the flywheel to get the starter to engage again; but that is only a temporary fix.

So what your saying is I need a new flywheel?

mikeg205
07-21-2013, 01:39 PM
Yes, -- look like it's time for a new flywheel - change the damper plate while you at it... you also myigh be able to get a machine shop to install a ring... but I am not an expert... This is where the dead engines help out with parts... IMO

College Kid
07-21-2013, 04:04 PM
OK,

It is back in the garage.....and I have a beverage and calmed down a little bit.

So I have found a ring gear locally for only $33.00 and I am pretty sure I will be able to have my buddy mount it for me.

Just need to break it all down now.

I have read a few threads about re builds, but haven't found the answer I am looking for.

Will I need to drain the transmission before unbolting it from the engine? And if so does someone have a good link to a thread about draining and removing the tranny?

Cloaked
07-21-2013, 04:26 PM
I'd drain it first. Eliminate any fluid spills or mess...

.

mikeg205
07-21-2013, 04:33 PM
Hey it's a boat... labor of love... you've done a bunch to this boat... you'll have a sweet ride when it's done.. timing stinks... but I would drain the transmission to avoid mess - change the damper plate trans filter as long as you have it apart.

also if you're taking that all out - maybe changing the rear main seal may be a good idea not sure of the steps but as long as everything this is of? what do the experts say.

I bet PO never maintained starter and may have not engaged and started chewing up flywheel..

College Kid
07-21-2013, 06:54 PM
OK,

well I am off to a good start. Have the engine jacked up and supported. Removed the rear mounts, and starter, as well as all the wiring and hose in the way.

I was able to get the bell housing started but can't seem to break it free from the output shaft.

Any thoughts ideas on how to pull these two apart?

College Kid
07-25-2013, 06:58 PM
Well I am back from my business trip and no further ahead.

The bell housing will not come loose. I am able to move the top no problem. The dowels are free. But it seems to still be attached at the bottom.

Does anyone have a schematic or manual of how this should come apart. I am really stuck as to why it's not coming off.

HELP!!!!

mikeg205
07-25-2013, 09:18 PM
The shaft shaft from the transmission maybe holding it place. Also a diagram I have in the clymers manual shows a bolt on the opposite side of the bell hose - forward of the flywheel. The diagram shows typical

College Kid
07-26-2013, 02:03 PM
Thanks Mike,

Unfortunately I am still at a loss??????

I gave up trying to remove the bell housing and transmission together and started working on removing the transmission from the bell housing.

I have it split off, but I can't seem to get it to come free. I seem to be still hung up on one of the studs.

there is no room to back them off all the way, does anyone have a trick to getting some leverage on the transmission with out damaging it? I seem to be gouging it with my pry bars and am worried about damage.

jpage
07-26-2013, 06:12 PM
Use a hoist to see if you can get it out of the bind it is in.

College Kid
08-02-2013, 07:38 PM
FINALLY!!!!

was able to break the transmission free. Had to pull out the big guns, unfortunately did a bit of damage, but hopefully nothing that can't be fixed or replaced.

The output shaft was lodged in the damper plate. Which I also broke.

I'll have some pictures up shortly of all the carnage.......

But now I have another question: How do I stop the flywheel from spinning to remove the bolts?

College Kid
08-03-2013, 11:06 AM
The Carnage

thatsmrmastercraft
08-03-2013, 11:11 AM
Could have been worse than that.

College Kid
08-03-2013, 11:32 AM
Yeah, it actually isn't that bad. Damper plate and block plate are really the only really ruined parts, and I had already planed to replace the Damper, so I can't really complain.

Does anyone have a source for the block plate? Can't seem to find it on skidim.com

Cloaked
08-03-2013, 12:44 PM
Yeah, it actually isn't that bad. Damper plate and block plate are really the only really ruined parts, and I had already planed to replace the Damper, so I can't really complain.

Does anyone have a source for the block plate? Can't seem to find it on skidim.com
http://www.partman.com/


http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/c/ALL3/Velvet_Drive_Transmissions_and_Parts.html

.
/

College Kid
08-04-2013, 03:03 PM
I am able to find the damper plates on those sites but can't seem to find the block plate.

The one that goes between the bell housing and the engine block???

mikeg205
08-04-2013, 06:25 PM
I would give michigan motorz a call ... http://www.michiganmotorz.com/

College Kid
08-08-2013, 05:23 PM
thought I was off to a good start. Have the fly wheel off, and was able to remove the ring gear. But have run into some issues. Does anyone know a napa # or another supplier for a ring gear that will fit the 351W? I thought it was a 157 tooth, but I have ordered in two separate ones and neither of them fit. I am trying to source something local, before having to pay shipping from skidim.com.

College Kid
08-24-2013, 12:43 PM
Well it's all back together!!!

Took me a little longer than I might have liked but I am finally back in business.

Now have a new problem. Went to start it and it spins, but doesn't seem to get spark???????

I've double checked all my wiring, and it seems fine. Just feels like it's not getting spark.

The only thing I can come up with is maybe I need to check the timing after replacing the flywheel??? can someone confirm?

Or any other thoughts on what to look at?

mikeg205
08-24-2013, 01:08 PM
is the coil firing? 93 - I am not familiar with that ignition... could be ignition module...

College Kid
08-24-2013, 01:20 PM
is the coil firing? 93 - I am not familiar with that ignition... could be ignition module...

How would I check that? Also what is the best way to check for at the plugs?

mikeg205
08-24-2013, 01:24 PM
How would I check that? Also what is the best way to check for at the plugs?

Voltmeter

ski/hunt
08-24-2013, 01:27 PM
Might be a silly answer but with being in and out and taking motor cover off etc. could the safety lanyard have been pulled out??

André
08-24-2013, 02:04 PM
Voltmeter

Can t check spark with a voltmeter unless you are talking about 12 v at the coil...
Definitive check for spark at the end of wire is sticking your finger into it!!!:D

Put a known working spark plug in the wire and ground it.Check for spark.

mikeg205
08-24-2013, 02:29 PM
Can t check spark with a voltmeter unless you are talking about 12 v at the coil...
Definitive check for spark at the end of wire is sticking your finger into it!!!:D

Put a known working spark plug in the wire and ground it.Check for spark.

True that! :D

Kyle
08-24-2013, 03:10 PM
Make sure that the coil wire and distributor are connected. The wiring harness should not have been removed to the coil, so ignition system should be fine. Timing was not changed unless you twisted the distributor during your project. There should have not been any reason to touch the distributor either.

Check your wiring harness to make sure you didn't pinch it or damage the connector in the main harness behind the drivers side head.

Kyle
08-24-2013, 03:15 PM
Might be a silly answer but with being in and out and taking motor cover off etc. could the safety lanyard have been pulled out??

I thought the same thing but if the lanyard or the neutral safety switch wires were not connected or the switch went bad then the boat would not spin. Then engine would do nothing.

Kind of like a dead key or dead battery.

Kyle
08-24-2013, 03:23 PM
To check the coil unplug it from the distributor and set the end that connects to the distributor next to a bolt head on the intake. You may need to stick a bolt into the coil wire and then try to get the wire to get close to the intake. Crank engine and see if you can get an arc. This will let you know you have voltage but it won't tell you how much. I would not suggest touching the coil wire while doing this. It will bust your a$$ if the coil is working. If she ran before your project then I would seriously doubt that things just broke or quit working on their own.

College Kid
08-24-2013, 04:03 PM
Thanks for all the help guys.

I am really at a loss.

I checked for spark on the plugs and had nothing. Nothing from the coil either. As it was on my list to do anyway, and I found one at a local part shop I replaced the coil with a new Pertornix Fire Starter II. Still no luck.

I am going to head back out and check through all the wiring.

I too thought of the lanyard, but it was bypassed by the previous owner.

could it have anything to do with the reset button on the motor?
Keep the ideas coming.

mikeg205
08-24-2013, 04:53 PM
Are you getting 12v to coil?

College Kid
08-24-2013, 06:01 PM
No Only 8. Have 12 at the alt. but doesn't seem to be coming through.

mikeg205
08-24-2013, 06:07 PM
trouble shooting tips.. have you tried these?

http://www.pertronix.com/support/tips/#a1

College Kid
08-24-2013, 06:13 PM
Thanks Mike.

Every thing look good there.

I am getting good voltage through the coil. And into the cap. but that is where it ends. No spark at getting through to the plugs.

mikeg205
08-24-2013, 06:21 PM
Thanks Mike.

Every thing look good there.

I am getting good voltage through the coil. And into the cap. but that is where it ends. No spark at getting through to the plugs.

okay the real experts need to chime in.... does your boat have breaker points?

College Kid
08-24-2013, 07:01 PM
Nope, have the electronic ignition upgrade.

College Kid
08-26-2013, 09:44 AM
Does anyone have a wiring diagram for the ignition system? After looking through all the wiring I am thinking that it must be an issue from there.

Can anyone direct me to a good write up on bypassing the kill switch? The PO had done it but it's a mess behind the dash and I suspect that it might be done wrong, or with bad connections.

Finally can anyone confirm what reading I should get from the posts on the coil? Should I be getting 12 or 8-9?

mikeg205
08-26-2013, 10:16 AM
Hey College - I can send a wiring diagram later today. Which original ignition system did you have? My clymers manual has a few diagrams.

College Kid
08-26-2013, 11:28 AM
Thanks Mike,

honestly I am not sure. The coil and wiring harness all looked original, but when it comes to the dash parts I am not really sure. I would expect that the ignition has been replaced, and the wiring is a rats nest.

mikeg205
08-26-2013, 11:32 AM
I'll send all the pages I have diagrams for.

Table Rocker
08-26-2013, 12:44 PM
As to your voltage going into your coil, it depends on whether or not you have a ballast resistor. If you have a resistor, the 8-9 is fine. Follow the red wire from the coil and see it it goes to something that looks like this:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjgwWDI4MA==/$(KGrHqV,!lUFC)8E+(urBQ6y+64msw~~60_35.JPG

If you have a test light, clamp it to 12v and put the test tip on the coil negative input. When you crank the engine, the light should flash.

thatsmrmastercraft
08-26-2013, 12:46 PM
Thanks Mike.

Every thing look good there.

I am getting good voltage through the coil. And into the cap. but that is where it ends. No spark at getting through to the plugs.

If you are getting spark at the coil wire and none at the spark plug, your cap or rotor are bad.

Looking at the rat's nest of wires, there is likely a high resistance connection there. Good luck with cleaning all that up.

College Kid
08-26-2013, 01:38 PM
As to your voltage going into your coil, it depends on whether or not you have a ballast resistor. If you have a resistor, the 8-9 is fine. Follow the red wire from the coil and see it it goes to something that looks like this:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjgwWDI4MA==/$(KGrHqV,!lUFC)8E+(urBQ6y+64msw~~60_35.JPG

If you have a test light, clamp it to 12v and put the test tip on the coil negative input. When you crank the engine, the light should flash.

The Red (positive) wire, is off the EI in the distributor, black (negative) is the same. I have a 2 purple (positive), one to the choke, the other from the wiring loom. I also have a grey(negative) coming from the loom.

I can't seem to find a resistor anywhere, in my research I should have had a orange wire which was obviously removed by the PO.

If I am getting only 8-9 at the coil is there somewhere else they could have hidden a resistor between the gauges and the back of the engine?

College Kid
08-26-2013, 01:47 PM
I just traced the purple wires from the ignition over to this, it is behind the gauges. Could that be the trouble? It has the name Mallory on it.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
08-26-2013, 02:15 PM
The pic is of the audible alarm circuit board, they do go out but will not cause the engine not to start. As far as voltage at coil 8-ish volts is where it needs to be if you have a ballast resistor, it will not have a resistor behind the dash.
Here is a basic 351w engine diagram, yours should be similiar.

College Kid
08-26-2013, 02:21 PM
Thanks,

If no resistor behind the dash, then I don't think I have one.

So I should be getting more than 8 to the coil. Any guess as to where I could be losing volts?

thatsmrmastercraft
08-26-2013, 02:56 PM
You probably need to start using an ohmmeter to check resistance on connections.

j.mccreight@hotmail.com
08-26-2013, 03:03 PM
Thanks,

If no resistor behind the dash, then I don't think I have one.

So I should be getting more than 8 to the coil. Any guess as to where I could be losing volts?

^What he said..

How many volts do you have on the purple wire going to the choke?

cbryan70
08-26-2013, 03:08 PM
^What he said..

How many volts do you have on the purple wire going to the choke?

good call they may be swapped?

I hate electrical