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LisaJ
07-15-2013, 02:15 PM
Now, ya'll try to remember that I SAID I was new to Slalom. And I started wakeboarding last year when I bought my Maristar 215 (which I love). As I'm starting to get more confident on my new ski and trying to work both sides of the boat, I'm very intimidated to stay in good form and power through the wake. After all, I'm trying to give up wakeboarding because of some nasty falls with head injuries jumping W2W. Now, I'm going airborne on a narrow ski in lieu of a nice WIDE wakeboard.

My boat driver has made all attempts to smooth the wake out as much as possible but at the speed I'm going, 24 mph, and always 6-10 people in the boat, the wake is STILL ~ 2 1/2'.

Do you think if I suck it up and try to go faster that it will be "do-able" for me? Or will it be a lost cause with this particular boat. I just didn't think I was quiet ready to be running 30 mph when I'm just learning.

What Mastercraft is THE Ski boat of choice?

snork
07-15-2013, 02:30 PM
gotta run at least 30 mph and trim all the way down, move everyone as far toward to the bow as possible, you might want to think about a smaller crew.
if that don't work you might need to invest into a 197

LisaJ
07-15-2013, 02:33 PM
That's what I'm trying to figure out...do I need to buy myself a smaller ski boat to get this accomplished. I don't want to exhaust myself trying to make this work if it will NEVER work. And yes, I know I need to lighten the load. Everybody is always so excited to jump in and go.

SKIBUMM
07-15-2013, 02:38 PM
Unless you have pure slalom tug you need a minimum of 30 MPH to make your wake passable. speed up and go. My 13 year old (second year slaloming runs at 28mph). You should notice a big difference in wake at 30 and people moved to distribute the load evenly.

190 Skier
07-15-2013, 02:40 PM
The previous reply had he right things to do. I will give you more suggestion that helped some of our newer skiers who had wake issues. Shorten up the rope to 28 or 32 off, this will get you in front of the rooster tail where the wake is not as tall and intimidating. I know 28 and 32 off is typically what a decent skier will do through a course and sounds intimidating, but you are not skiing a course right now so try it and see how it works for you.

GoneBoatN
07-15-2013, 02:51 PM
Start with the easiest to modify - dump all weight possible. Depending upon your average weight that is quite a lot of ballast in bodies. 8 people *165 = 1320 lbs; that is more than the stock ballast of the X-15. So take just the min (driver, spotter and yourself), 3/4 tank of gas and dump other stuff not needed. The 215/X-15 has quite a bump even with no ballast but why stack the odds against you to start with.

IMO, wakeboarding at slower speeds with a helmet on would be less chances of injury than 30 MPH on a ski but then again I speak from no experience on the (water) skiing side of things. Take the wakeboard out at 19 MPH with longer rope and enjoy some one wake jumps, surface spins, lip slides etc. The water is much softer at 19 MPH. I think the problem people get into with wakeboarding is to expect the boat (speed) to make up for deficiencies (I speak from experience there) in skills thus taking harder falls.

All in all, whatever it takes to get out on the water and have fun rather than bad experiences. I'll look forward to reading how you progress on this.

LisaJ
07-15-2013, 02:54 PM
I thought about shortening the rope but wasn't sure if that would make learning more difficult or not. Right now I'm working on the drill of cutting out to left 3 seconds, coasting 3 seconds, then across the wake to the other side, etc. I'm doing this very comfortable with the exception of being so relieved to still be right side up after crossing the tremendous wake. I find myself coming off my edge and bending my knees a ton and praying to stay up on the ski. I will definitely try shortening the rope and then MAYBE I won't have to go quiet SO fast these first early learning pull sessions.

ncsone
07-15-2013, 03:02 PM
Shortening is a good thing in this case. It prevents you from getting out to wide and creating a lot of speed into the wake. The (very good) school here locally starts new skiers with a much shorter line so that they do not develop fear of the wake due to high crossing speeds (and falls).

LisaJ
07-15-2013, 03:07 PM
I didn't think about it that way but it does make perfect sense. I had in my head that it would make it more difficult for me. But, of course, I'm a perfectionist and I see myself eventually doing it like the world class skiers. LOL I always think BIG!!! LOL

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 03:14 PM
MC Ski boats with great wakes:

190
197
205
X7

1. Your speed: I think you need to keep the speed down to where you have it now in order to work on form... Speeding the boat will cause you to form bad habits... You have to be able to generate the speed across the wakes with your body and not let the boat do it for you.

2. Rope: Stay with 15' off - shortening the rope will only slow your learning process. You have to (have to have to) learn to generate the speed and proper on edge form via the longer line and slower speed. You can not learn to ski a slalom course at 28' off - believe me I TRIED :D

2. Generating the speed with your body means you’re going to have to do the following:
. a. Get wider on the boat....
. b. Keep the ski on edge across BOTH wakes

3. 6-10 people on the boat at all times and on a big boat? Holy cArp... Get rid of the dead weight, go with 3 people max.

4. Lastly, you should be able to tell that you have a good (confident side) and an off (omg i’m going to wipe out) side. On the offside pull, make sure you are looking at the pylon the whole way across the wake. That will open your shoulders, put the ski on edge and you wont see the wake coming to be scared of it.

MC

JMLVMI
07-15-2013, 03:17 PM
MC Ski boats with great wakes:
190
197
205
X7


Don't forget the lowly 195! :cool:

Also the 214, x14 and 209 will probably put out better wakes than your MariStar and they are all AWSA approved (at one point or another).

It's the great compromise. Wakeboarding, wakesurfing etc. are social sports best done with everyone in the big V-drive boat. Skiing is really done best in a small boat without a ton of weight in it. If you like both, it's a difficult choice to make.

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 03:22 PM
Don't forget the lowly 195! :cool:

Yep, I totally forgot the 195. Sorry :)


@LisaJ: This is a 32 MPH completed pass of me running 15' off this past Saturday... Notice the speed I am picking up behind the boat... But semi-relaxed at the turn... Notice also I am on edge...

proper form > higher speed and > shorter line length

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3Wtgj3Ig2w&sns=em

fstaslp
07-15-2013, 03:29 PM
Yep, I totally forgot the 195. Sorry :)


@LisaJ: This is a 32 MPH completed pass of me running 15' off this past Saturday... Notice the speed I am picking up behind the boat... But semi-relaxed at the turn... Notice also I am on edge...

proper form > higher speed and > shorter line length

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3Wtgj3Ig2w&sns=em

Being that we haven't been on the water yet- that made me incredibly jealous! Also reminded me of my days of skiing on the Great Miami River in Hamilton, OH.

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 03:35 PM
Being that we haven't been on the water yet- that made me incredibly jealous! Also reminded me of my days of skiing on the Great Miami River in Hamilton, OH.

We sure had perfect pre-cool front conditions saturday! :D

LisaJ
07-15-2013, 03:35 PM
I just watched the video. Loved it-a picture is worth a 1,000 words. I call this NO wake, flat as a pancake and what's most noticeable is how narrow the wake is. Mine is very WIDE!

JMLVMI
07-15-2013, 03:58 PM
I just watched the video. Loved it-a picture is worth a 1,000 words. I call this NO wake, flat as a pancake and what's most noticeable is how narrow the wake is. Mine is very WIDE!

Want to see more? Here's a thread with pictures http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=52&page=19

I'm headed to the lake tonight and you're invited to come out with us tomorrow morning!

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 04:03 PM
I just watched the video. Loved it-a picture is worth a 1,000 words. I call this NO wake, flat as a pancake and what's most noticeable is how narrow the wake is. Mine is very WIDE!

Thanks!

New 190, 197 and x7 MC's have a wider wake, but they are flat.

I have had people tell me they prefer the 197 wake over the 90s Prostars, and I have had people tell me that prefer the 90s over the 197s...

My reply is that if you're on edge, you won't even know the difference.

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 04:19 PM
^^^^+1 what rat says... going flat thru the wake is punishing and unsafe. Get in the right stacked position... keep arms straight... turn hips... start just outside the wake until your kohones grow like mine finally are... this pic was me attacking the wake... unfortunately.. it won... ;) - But I did get up and ski more... lol... it's now fun rippin thru the wake... had a nice rip ... and I failed... turn my shoulder - fail.. :)

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 04:50 PM
Mike - is that a spear they threw at you or your ski? :D

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 04:58 PM
Never came out of the ski... you can see me on my arse...lol...

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 05:28 PM
LisaJ needs to post up a video

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 05:42 PM
LisaJ needs to post up a video

^^^^what he says...lol

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 05:53 PM
^^^^what he says...lol

Mike, cut it out - i meant of her SKIING :D

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 05:55 PM
Mike, cut it out - i meant of her SKIING :D

I know that's what you meant... she's going to Coble... - get your head out of the gutter.... :D

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 05:59 PM
I know that's what you meant... she's going to Coble... - get your head out of the gutter.... :D

LMAO - had to make sure brothah!

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 06:06 PM
LMAO - had to make sure brothah!

I did bump my head on sunday(had helmet)....on the water... good one to make sure...

TxsRiverRat
07-15-2013, 06:12 PM
I did bump my head on sunday(had helmet)....on the water... good one to make sure...

Is that the helmet you wear every day, or a special one for skiing? ;)

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 06:15 PM
Is that the helmet you wear every day, or a special one for skiing? ;)


lmao....

Ben
07-15-2013, 08:18 PM
That's what I'm trying to figure out...do I need to buy myself a smaller ski boat to get this accomplished. I don't want to exhaust myself trying to make this work if it will NEVER work. And yes, I know I need to lighten the load. Everybody is always so excited to jump in and go.

As said by others, ditch all the weight you can. I'd shoot for 28-30 mph not knowing your weight or strength. With that many people in the boat, even on edge I would think you are not being nice to your knees. I am still a beginner but won't ski with more than three in the boat. Not fun.

A trim tab may help the boat / wake. However, if you get serious and want to "attack the wake with a vengeance" as we used to say, a direct drive (not 209) would be great, as I mentioned in your other thread.

Take up whoever offered you a pull on the direct drive. Always.

I've hurt myself a lot worse / rung my bell more often on a wakeboard than a ski. Although w2w 180's is about as far as I went. Nothing like a face plant at 21mph to blind you for 60 seconds....

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 08:27 PM
As said by others, ditch all the weight you can. I'd shoot for 28-30 mph not knowing your weight or strength. With that many people in the boat, even on edge I would think you are not being nice to your knees. I am still a beginner but won't ski with more than three in the boat. Not fun.

A trim tab may help the boat / wake. However, if you get serious and want to "attack the wake with a vengeance" as we used to say, a direct drive (not 209) would be great, as I mentioned in your other thread.

Take up whoever offered you a pull on the direct drive. Always.

I've hurt myself a lot worse / rung my bell more often on a wakeboard than a ski. Although w2w 180's is about as far as I went. Nothing like a face plant at 21mph to blind you for 60 seconds....


That's why everyone should where a helmet on water sports... The injury thread freaks me out... :(

tph
07-15-2013, 08:45 PM
That's why everyone should where a helmet on water sports... The injury thread freaks me out... :(
I don't think a helmet would help with a face plant. Would it?

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 09:02 PM
I don't think a helmet would help with a face plant. Would it?

Protects the ears... from perforated ear drum(s)...

Jerseydave
07-15-2013, 09:11 PM
First I'd hate to see you give up so soon on wakeboarding. You have a great boat for it, and it sounds like you have plenty of passengers which is going to make skiing well behind that boat very difficult. If you desire to slalom and cut hard into the wake, try it behind someone's direct drive (190,197,etc.) If you still want to hang up the wakeboard, you may need a different boat.

But give wakeboarding another try. Get a GATH helmet, slow the boat to 18-19 and just have a driver and a spotter. The wake should be very clean at that speed, and you can jump one-wake on a 75' rope until you master that, then shorten it to about 60' and try W2W.

Oh, and I always offer free lessons for the ladies here in New Jersey! ;)

97781

88 PS190
07-15-2013, 09:14 PM
You know - when wake cutting is too hard, I give up on it. Get a trick ski and enjoy feeling silly.

JMLVMI
07-15-2013, 10:00 PM
It's easy for Jerseydave to say, he has an XStar and a ProStar!

She lives down the road from me; I'll give her some pulls behind the 195 and see what she thinks.

tph
07-15-2013, 10:02 PM
Protects the ears... from perforated ear drum(s)...

True. I guess I've only experienced the eyelid peel back and whiplash.

mikeg205
07-15-2013, 10:08 PM
True. I guess I've only experienced the eyelid peel back and whiplash.

Ouch!!!!

madcityskier
07-15-2013, 11:39 PM
x2 on don't give up on the wakeboarding. For a faceplant, tuck your head and hit on the crown of it, not on your face. I've also taken way more hard falls on a wakeboard than in all my years on a ski. Keep the handle in to your waist as your jump, and don't look down, as you have to lean forward to see the water, and once you lean forward...
Check evogear.com for helmets in the closeouts, def. get earflaps for it. As to slalom, take JMLVMI up on the offer to ski his 195, offer some gas, or take him and his family for a wakeboard run on your boat (trading runs instead of gas has been great for some buddies and me). Once you're able to attack consistently without a bobble at 30 -15, think of getting a run behind your boat. Move as much weight as possible to the bow, and bring a small crew. Wear that helmet. You'll likely find that your bouncing over and popping wheelies, or hitting and then going out the front at the second wake. This will show you how what felt like a stacked position really wasn't all that close. Once you get this corrected, you will be able to cut hard, knowing the ski will likely leave the water, with the confidence that you will be centered on top of it when it returns to the water.
I have run the course behind a number of boats that other skiers refused to run behind including a Rinker Captiva, and a Super Air Nautique. I also contend that the wake on my 85 stars and stripes is damn nice, though if you get beyond -32 the spray is significant.
Not to harp on the helmet, but I have seen multiple perforated ear drums without, and one friend who after having several face plants hit the back of his head on the water so hard he had a nosebleed. He was wearing a helmet, and I hate to think of that crash if he hadn't been wearing a helmet.

Ben
07-16-2013, 08:01 AM
Dayum, you must have cat like reflexes to tuck your head before a toeside edge catching face plant....

Agree to keep Wakeboarding, it's fun too, just seems more injury prone as you naturally crash more as your are trying new stuff.

LisaJ
07-16-2013, 08:22 AM
I see you guys had a field day on her after I left work yesterday evening. Couple of things:

1) After watching the video on here yesterday, I realized that ya'll could help me more if I had a video of exactly what's going on. I charged up the Ipad last night and will assign someone to videoing. I'm usually the one taking all the pics and video's.

2) Just thinking about 30 mph is giving me the shakes, that is, with my existing GIANT wake! I'm 5'7" and 132 lbs.

3) We do have an "Attitude Adjuster Plate" on our boat but haven't noticed that it helped that much with the heavy load of people. I think I'm going to have to be a mean hostess and request they stay on my dock while I ski a few minutes and try to sort things out. LOL

4) I still love wakeboarding BUT when I say I had some nasty falls jumping W2W...I mean nasty. Knocked myself unconscious twice and the end result was Vertigo for 5 months straight, a concussion that left me with blurry vision for 2 months. The problem was I didn't get any coaching and was trying to jump with speed, often a very flat, fast jump and would crest the offside wake and occasionally it didn't end well.

5) I am going to Coble Ski School in September and very excited.

6) Now for another question: My new HO ski has a slip in boot behind. The salesman thought it would be better for someone beginning and trying to learn to pull up. I pull up fine but I find after skiing a little bit that the arch of my hind foot gets uncomfortable (probably because I didn't know I shouldn't have SO much weight distributed to my hind foot). My arms, torso, back never make me stop skiing but my hind foot begs me to stop and rest. All the instructional video show people skiing with 2 boots. Should I take my ski back and have this changed? Should a beginner ski with 2 boots?

Thanks so much for all the feedback. It makes it so much fun!

d2jp
07-16-2013, 08:39 AM
MC Ski boats with great wakes:

190
197
205
X7

1. Your speed: I think you need to keep the speed down to where you have it now in order to work on form... Speeding the boat will cause you to form bad habits... You have to be able to generate the speed across the wakes with your body and not let the boat do it for you.

2. Rope: Stay with 15' off - shortening the rope will only slow your learning process. You have to (have to have to) learn to generate the speed and proper on edge form via the longer line and slower speed. You can not learn to ski a slalom course at 28' off - believe me I TRIED :D

2. Generating the speed with your body means youíre going to have to do the following:
. a. Get wider on the boat....
. b. Keep the ski on edge across BOTH wakes

3. 6-10 people on the boat at all times and on a big boat? Holy cArp... Get rid of the dead weight, go with 3 people max.

4. Lastly, you should be able to tell that you have a good (confident side) and an off (omg iím going to wipe out) side. On the offside pull, make sure you are looking at the pylon the whole way across the wake. That will open your shoulders, put the ski on edge and you wont see the wake coming to be scared of it.

MC

Solid advice ^^^^

IMO, a double boot vs rear toe plate isn't going to make a big difference at this point. I have a front boot w/ rear toe plate on a 67" Radar Theory and really like this set-up. Granted I'm not running a course. But, my 18 y/o daughter just started last year and LOVES my ski. I will post up a picture of her later - she's about your size and also a beginner.

Adjust the number of 'observers' in your boat and go for it. I'd guess many people on here learned to ski behind all kinds of boats/wakes. Huge outboards, center consoles, Bayliners, even...a pontoon:) I've skiied slalom for almost 40 years and only the last three behind a direct drive 190.

Patrick
07-16-2013, 09:18 AM
There's a lot you can work on between now and Sept, before even worrying about crossing the wake (and boat changes). If you keep repeating crossing the big wake and being intimidated you'll potentially do more harm than good by reinforcing a bad position & habits.

- Make sure you're always in the 'right' position on your ski, from the time you get up to the time you're done. Use all the time you're skiing to reinforce standing in the right position even if you're just resting behind the boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1j-7MS6YLc

- When that's comfortable work on pull-out/coasting drills seen below. Keep the strong position. Initiate the outward movement by shifting your outside hip in the desired direction. Try to get in a good lean, come up, coast, and do it again. Take video so you can see what you look like, work on trying to look like they do in the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsVhsn-RlY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLfNGee5LKo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8XqIMwABsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYHKMHBJYdA

I don't know if you have a course available (it's not strictly needed), but another way of working on and learning that position is to hold it the entire length of the course. If you have an adjustable rope shorten it to 22 or 28 off. Pull out and hold the position wider than the buoys. If you're in a good position you'll be able to hold it that wide and get lower and lower into a good lean. If you're not in the right position you'll find yourself getting pulled inside the buoys. Just go back & forth on either side reinforcing a good position. You can do all of that without crossing the wake.

Now just doing pullouts and stuff isn't always 'fun' so ski a bit and have fun, but take some time to try to work on the right position with the wake out of the equation (or just something to do if you find yourself out with a bunch of people). Once that starts feeling good and comfortable you can work on adding the wake.

You can also work on things on land. In retrospect I'm not sure how much it helped while I was learning or not but you can hold your position with the handle attached to anything, or do things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzMBIVkQDMU (and part2/part3)

Regarding the bindings, just stick with the toe plate between now and your Coble's trip. Once you're there you can ask to demo anything in the shop (double boots, different skis, etc). That way you can try it and decide if it feels better.

After your trip you'll also get a good idea on what a 197 wake looks & feels like compared to yours.

LisaJ
07-16-2013, 09:27 AM
More awesome advice Patrick. I'm a very methodical person and I loved your post. Thanks for taking the time to share this information. I'm often too eager and get myself in trouble.

madcityskier
07-16-2013, 10:03 AM
For specific slalom help ballofspray.com has a pretty good forum. And Seth Stisher's drills on YouTube are great.

88 PS190
07-16-2013, 10:29 AM
More awesome advice Patrick. I'm a very methodical person and I loved your post. Thanks for taking the time to share this information. I'm often too eager and get myself in trouble.

One thing to keep in mind when watching those videos - there is plenty of stuff that can be learned there - but it is from an older school of thought in slalom.

You'll see that there is a lot of "hiding" your back shoulder from the boat, and that he initiates his turns by essentially putting his shoulders over the edge of the ski.

Lots of folks skied or still ski that way, but it really isn't as much fun as carving. I'm even debating buying one of the new "free" ride type skis to work on that sort of stuff.

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 11:01 AM
For specific slalom help ballofspray.com has a pretty good forum. And Seth Stisher's drills on YouTube are great.

Oh thanks jeff... give Lisa the seth stisher video's - ;) those are great!!!

TxsRiverRat
07-16-2013, 11:15 AM
2) Just thinking about 30 mph is giving me the shakes, that is, with my existing GIANT wake! I'm 5'7" and 132 lbs.

6) Now for another question: My new HO ski has a slip in boot behind. The salesman thought it would be better for someone beginning and trying to learn to pull up. I pull up fine but I find after skiing a little bit that the arch of my hind foot gets uncomfortable (probably because I didn't know I shouldn't have SO much weight distributed to my hind foot). My arms, torso, back never make me stop skiing but my hind foot begs me to stop and rest. All the instructional video show people skiing with 2 boots. Should I take my ski back and have this changed? Should a beginner ski with 2 boots?

30 is too fast... Like I said in my initial advice, you must learn to generate the speed and angle with your body through good form, rather than the boat doing it for you. Anyone that might suggest “26 or 28 is too slow, I sink” does not have the proper form. If you have a perfect pass, I would say set yourself up at 28 for free skiing, 26 in a slalom course... I had to slow the boat down to re-learn it all this season, and 30 now feels like I am crawling... at 32 I am running 2 of 3... at 34, I have run it 1x and been at 4 buoys since then. (15 off).

I went to a double boot early and never looked back. Based on your ability and eagerness, I think you may benefit from a double boot.


You can also work on things on land.

^^^+100 – that is a darn good bit of advice – practice your form on dry land!

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 11:22 AM
Signed up for my next set of lessons on August 21st... going thru the course after a half hour of reviewing my technique... let the addiction begin... ;)

TxsRiverRat
07-16-2013, 11:38 AM
I might add...

We have a skier in our club that is 6'2" 230# and skis the course at 28.

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 11:40 AM
There's a lot you can work on between now and Sept, before even worrying about crossing the wake (and boat changes). If you keep repeating crossing the big wake and being intimidated you'll potentially do more harm than good by reinforcing a bad position & habits.

- Make sure you're always in the 'right' position on your ski, from the time you get up to the time you're done. Use all the time you're skiing to reinforce standing in the right position even if you're just resting behind the boat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1j-7MS6YLc

- When that's comfortable work on pull-out/coasting drills seen below. Keep the strong position. Initiate the outward movement by shifting your outside hip in the desired direction. Try to get in a good lean, come up, coast, and do it again. Take video so you can see what you look like, work on trying to look like they do in the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WsVhsn-RlY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLfNGee5LKo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8XqIMwABsQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYHKMHBJYdA

I don't know if you have a course available (it's not strictly needed), but another way of working on and learning that position is to hold it the entire length of the course. If you have an adjustable rope shorten it to 22 or 28 off. Pull out and hold the position wider than the buoys. If you're in a good position you'll be able to hold it that wide and get lower and lower into a good lean. If you're not in the right position you'll find yourself getting pulled inside the buoys. Just go back & forth on either side reinforcing a good position. You can do all of that without crossing the wake.

Now just doing pullouts and stuff isn't always 'fun' so ski a bit and have fun, but take some time to try to work on the right position with the wake out of the equation (or just something to do if you find yourself out with a bunch of people). Once that starts feeling good and comfortable you can work on adding the wake.

You can also work on things on land. In retrospect I'm not sure how much it helped while I was learning or not but you can hold your position with the handle attached to anything, or do things like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzMBIVkQDMU (and part2/part3)

Regarding the bindings, just stick with the toe plate between now and your Coble's trip. Once you're there you can ask to demo anything in the shop (double boots, different skis, etc). That way you can try it and decide if it feels better.

After your trip you'll also get a good idea on what a 197 wake looks & feels like compared to yours.

Patrick - thanks for this post....

So many drills - so little time... :)

JMLVMI
07-16-2013, 11:42 AM
Re: the double boot vs rear toe plate, Nate Smith uses an RTP and he's run 2@43. So it's definitely all about feel.

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 11:46 AM
may have to order the drills... lol no internet in Ontario where I am headed....lol

88 PS190
07-16-2013, 12:13 PM
Re: the double boot vs rear toe plate, Nate Smith uses an RTP and he's run 2@43. So it's definitely all about feel.

I have a theory - it is primarily that an RTP really lets you get the rear angle as close as possible to the front ankle.

This to me is probably the single biggest advantage. We are seeing lots of modifications being performed to rear bindings - particularly to rear hardshells, the R-style from Reflex - people removing/cutting cuffs on rear binders, or running an elastic instead of a top cuff buckle. But I think the biggest single thing that is required is getting the rear toes darned near on top of the back of the front binder.

My theory is that since most humans past the age of puberty lose flexibility at the hip, since you have to move your hip back to your rear binding, we tend to rotate our hips to that side, this lets us get our rear foot back to the binding and our heel down, in reality to get to this position with out making ourselves even more unbalanced/uneven we need to work on hip flexiblity and minimize the amount of disparity between the limbs as much as possible.

Heel freedom gives you functional leg length as you can lift your heel a bit if you need to get the hip forward. Otherwise if you have a hardshell and the foot locked down on the heel, and limited flexiblity you're getting dragged back onto the rear foot - and who needs that! Not that an RTP fixes it. And it does create more issues at the same time.

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 01:00 PM
I have a theory - it is primarily that an RTP really lets you get the rear angle as close as possible to the front ankle.

This to me is probably the single biggest advantage. We are seeing lots of modifications being performed to rear bindings - particularly to rear hardshells, the R-style from Reflex - people removing/cutting cuffs on rear binders, or running an elastic instead of a top cuff buckle. But I think the biggest single thing that is required is getting the rear toes darned near on top of the back of the front binder.

My theory is that since most humans past the age of puberty lose flexibility at the hip, since you have to move your hip back to your rear binding, we tend to rotate our hips to that side, this lets us get our rear foot back to the binding and our heel down, in reality to get to this position with out making ourselves even more unbalanced/uneven we need to work on hip flexiblity and minimize the amount of disparity between the limbs as much as possible.

Heel freedom gives you functional leg length as you can lift your heel a bit if you need to get the hip forward. Otherwise if you have a hardshell and the foot locked down on the heel, and limited flexiblity you're getting dragged back onto the rear foot - and who needs that! Not that an RTP fixes it. And it does create more issues at the same time.


Great write up -...

JMLVMI
07-16-2013, 01:06 PM
I have a theory - it is primarily that an RTP really lets you get the rear angle as close as possible to the front ankle...

Heel freedom gives you functional leg length as you can lift your heel a bit if you need to get the hip forward. Otherwise if you have a hardshell and the foot locked down on the heel, and limited flexiblity you're getting dragged back onto the rear foot - and who needs that! Not that an RTP fixes it. And it does create more issues at the same time.

The folks I ski with tell me that I am over the back of the ski all the time and every time I try to distribute weight evenly it does feel "weird" and I resort to old habits. I'm running Wiley High Wraps right now; I might try an RTP to see if "cheating" my heel up will help me achieve that balance.

TxsRiverRat
07-16-2013, 01:11 PM
The folks I ski with tell me that I am over the back of the ski all the time and every time I try to distribute weight evenly it does feel "weird" and I resort to old habits. I'm running Wiley High Wraps right now; I might try an RTP to see if "cheating" my heel up will help me achieve that balance.

Translation: You're tail riding... And you can't effectively turn the ski that way.

I don't think a toe plate will fix that. Think about pressing down with 60-70% of your weight on the front foot. If you're wondering if you got it right, your front knee should be pushed forward - even with your toes...

MC

JMLVMI
07-16-2013, 01:23 PM
Translation: You're tail riding... And you can't effectively turn the ski that way.

I don't think a toe plate will fix that. Think about pressing down with 60-70% of your weight on the front foot. If you're wondering if you got it right, your front knee should be pushed forward - even with your toes...

MC

Going to start doing some dry land drills on the off days and then work on this. I'm headed to Coble in Sept. and hope to have at least my form fixed by then, if not my skiing :D

TxsRiverRat
07-16-2013, 01:31 PM
Going to start doing some dry land drills on the off days and then work on this. I'm headed to Coble in Sept. and hope to have at least my form fixed by then, if not my skiing :D

Two of the hardest things I have tried to learn:

1. Putting all that weight on the front leg

2. Rolling on to the inside edge on the pre-turn... I am still struggling with it

russlars
07-16-2013, 01:33 PM
I'm late to the party on this but my advise is to ski behind a direct drive dedicated slalom tug so that you can see and feel the difference with your wake crossings. I think you will be amazed at the difference you will feel (not feel) compared to the boat you are skiing behind. The wake used to always intimidate me also because I was always skiing behind IO's with big wakes. Once I skied behind a true ski boat there was no turning back. It is so much easier to maintain proper form when you are not fearing a dreaded face plant with every wake crossing. A couple years ago I was invited to ski behind a friends V Drive and as soon as I got back there and saw the size of that wake the old intimidation factor kicked in again and I went into survival mode. If you intend to be a dedicated slalom skier you will probably be boat shopping after you go to ski school.

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 01:41 PM
Two of the hardest things I have tried to learn:

1. Putting all that weight on the front leg

2. Rolling on to the inside edge on the pre-turn... I am still struggling with it

Really it seemed liked you did that in your video's.

mike

TxsRiverRat
07-16-2013, 02:18 PM
Really it seemed liked you did that in your video's.

mike

I'm doing it, but I know i need more...

Plus, I need to make sure I am looking at the pylon from 1 to 2, 3 to 4 and 5 to 6 :)

LisaJ
07-16-2013, 02:48 PM
Okay-I need to block out some time from work just to watch these drills on video...My productivity has definitely decreased since this ski obsession.

Thanks guys!

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 03:11 PM
Okay-I need to block out some time from work just to watch these drills on video...My productivity has definitely decreased since this ski obsession.

Thanks guys!

lol.. welcome... I bought the Drill DVD today... :) will watch before I go out every day...

welcome to the addiction... Lisa.. it's much more fun than work... and not destructive --- unless you crash... ;) - so ski safe and ski it up... :)

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 03:13 PM
I'm doing it, but I know i need more...

Plus, I need to make sure I am looking at the pylon from 1 to 2, 3 to 4 and 5 to 6 :)

Oh good at least it can't get worse... ;)

At this point i have the same issue... lol...

http://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gifhttp://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gifhttp://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gifhttp://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gifhttp://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gif

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 03:15 PM
Okay-I need to block out some time from work just to watch these drills on video...My productivity has definitely decreased since this ski obsession.

Thanks guys!

Oh BTW - here's something to think about.. I wonder what it would be like to slalom behind a direct drive vs. your Vdrive... so many things to think about - so little time... ;)

TxsRiverRat
07-16-2013, 03:39 PM
Oh good at least it can't get worse... ;)

At this point i have the same issue... lol...

http://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gifhttp://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gifhttp://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gifhttp://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gifhttp://vipstylecars.com/forums/images/smilies/smiley-rofl.gif

Oh... it can get alot worse... 6 weeks ago, i was ready to quit because I couldnt even run 15 / 30

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 04:04 PM
Oh... it can get alot worse... 6 weeks ago, i was ready to quit because I couldnt even run 15 / 30

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Bad days can't be counted... as in any good addiction there will be times you want to purge...lol :D - but only to return to it... you have way too many enablers in your life... including me... :D

JMLVMI
07-16-2013, 04:41 PM
Oh... it can get alot worse... 6 weeks ago, i was ready to quit because I couldnt even run 15 / 30

:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Had one of those days today. My first time in the course was last week, I made 2 at 30@15 in 6" chop with 10mph winds behind a '92 Ski Brendella. Today behind my beloved 195 in glass conditions I fell 4 times and couldn't get around 2 ball to save my life.

The pros on YouTube make it look so easy :rolleyes:

TxsRiverRat
07-16-2013, 04:55 PM
Bad days can't be counted... as in any good addiction there will be times you want to purge...lol :D - but only to return to it... you have way too many enablers in your life... including me... :D

For sure... Phone lights up like a pinball machine on a daily basis... "skiing today...?" "what is so and so's phone # or email addy...?" "Are you skiing this weekend?" "Can you fit me in this week...?" Being president has it's perks, i will miss it when I retire in December. I'll still hold an office, not sure which one...

Had one of those days today. My first time in the course was last week, I made 2 at 30@15 in 6" chop with 10mph winds behind a '92 Ski Brendella. Today behind my beloved 195 in glass conditions I fell 4 times and couldn't get around 2 ball to save my life. The pros on YouTube make it look so easy :rolleyes:

Yes, they do make it look easy... I've been told *I* make it look easy... I guess it depends on the level you're at :D

mikeg205
07-16-2013, 05:16 PM
skiing today? :D sorry couldn't resist... lol... as president you need to be running 39 off and hit 6 buoys... @36 - ;) ..... ;)

88 PS190
07-16-2013, 07:16 PM
Wiley high wraps should not be a huge issue - the rear binding is pretty unrestrictive, and the toe is cut on the plate. When wearing it look at your toes, if they are not right near the horseshoe of the front plate, you can try to move the plate up. This might require cutting the rear plate shorter depending on what binding size you own and the length of your foot.


Another thing that I find helps getting the weight up, is just focusing on the hips and chest, squeeze those butt cheeks, press your hips forward, and think about putting your chest out like a strutting rooster. If you try to do that you will get close to far enough forwards or look really stupid.