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92Prostar190
07-15-2013, 10:55 AM
New to the discussion, so send me to a string on this topic if one is out there. I searched but didn't find.

92 Prostar 190 with 351 Holly carb which I seem to be flooding straight off the trailer at the dock. I have had to tie up out of the way and let it sit for 10 minutes that last two times I launched. Then it starts up fine and I never have a problem the rest of the day. But it is both embarrassing and frustrating to not fire right up.

My process is to typically prime by pushing the throttle forward 2-3 times before cranking. Previous owner said he did the same or more and never had a problem. I can tell it is getting gas as I can smell it. When cranking seems to be doing nothing but turning the motor over, I have often primed it once more between cranks.

Recently I tried no priming, thinking I was pushing too much gas, but the same thing happened. I think this is on me and if I would properly prime it then it would be fine. I have to wonder if I am even priming I guess. I do push the throttle all the way forward as far as I can tell. I have perfect pass if that matters at all.

Any suggestions for me here?

drschemel
07-15-2013, 12:21 PM
Have you tried the usual tune-up items? spark plugs, points and condensor (if you haven't converted to electric ignition)? Are you letting your motor warm up for a minute or so to open the choke before you try to back off the trailer? If it is working properly, you shouldn't have to pump the throttle, one time will cause the accelerator pump to push a little extra gas into the manifold. If you're not a gear-head, a trip to your local boat mechanic will probably help a lot!

92Prostar190
07-15-2013, 04:48 PM
Yes, full tune-up this spring. No EFI on this boat. I should say the boat is not used weekly :( so it can sit a couple of weeks between use. Therefore, there is likely no gas there anyway when trying to prime.

Mechanic friend suggested cranking for 15 seconds to push gas in and then stop and push the throttle a couple of times and then crank again and should fire right up. I feel like this is what I tried last time with the result of flooding, but I am going to try again.

I definitely let it warm up once it is running. When you say open the choke, is that automatic or is there something like pushing the key in while turning that controls that? My dad's outboard works that way, where you push in the key to choke.

thatsmrmastercraft
07-15-2013, 05:15 PM
Welcome to Team Talk 92Prostar190. Sounds like you could be dealing with a couple problems here. The ignition system needs to be up to the task as well as the carb.

Do you have the original points ignition or has it been converted to electronic ignition? If still points, they should have been replaced and the dwell set with a dwell meter as opposed to just setting point gap.

Did you perform the tune-up or did you take your boat in for this?

Once you have ascertained that the ignition system is fully ready, there are a few things with the carb that may cause issues. First is the choke. When properly adjusted, the choke blade should lightly close on a fully cold engine. When you turn the key, power is applied to the electric choke and when adjusted properly, the choke blade will be fully open within 90 seconds. You also need to verify that when you work the throttle fully, you get two good streams of fuel in the primary side of the carb from the accelerator pump. if the choke is opening too soon or staying closed too long, there will be a problem.

With both the carb and the ignition system operational, it should be one or two short strokes of the throttle leaving the throttle slightly advanced and it the key and fire right up. Two weeks is no problem for the boat to sit between uses so you should not need any extra cranking.

I would suggest spending some time in your driveway with a water-source of your choice and learn how to start your boat under all conditions.

SkiDaddy
07-16-2013, 08:35 AM
On other thing to consider is what are you doing with the key in the ignition prior to starting it the first time of the day? The choke blade will start the day in the closed position, if you put the key in the ignition and turn it to the "pre-start" position, then the choke circuit is energized and the choke will begin opening - even though the engine is not running.

So if you have the key in this position 1-2 minutes before you actually try to start the boat, the choke will be fully open and won't be performing it's proper duty and this could be causing your cold-start problem.

Only turn the ignition key just prior to trying to start the engine - that way the choke is fully closed when the engine starts.

Good luck!

CantRepeat
07-16-2013, 08:53 AM
The 92 should already be electronic ignition from the factory.

I would look at the choke adjustment and idle screw mixture settings. When properly adjusted you shouldn't have to touch the gas to start it, even when cold.

etduc
07-16-2013, 10:57 AM
Yes, full tune-up this spring. No EFI on this boat. I should say the boat is not used weekly :( so it can sit a couple of weeks between use. Therefore, there is likely no gas there anyway when trying to prime.
Mechanic friend suggested cranking for 15 seconds to push gas in and then stop and push the throttle a couple of times and then crank again and should fire right up. I feel like this is what I tried last time with the result of flooding, but I am going to try again.

You need to find another mechanic friend. You risk, frying your starter solenoid. (I know, I have done it!) If it doesn't start in 5 seconds or less, stop cranking. Turn ignition OFF, wait at least 10 seconds, before trying again. (Let chock coil cool down, let starter soleniod cool.)

With a proper working primer diaphragm, one pump of gas, should be all that is needed. It would take, many months, for fuel in float bowls to degrade. (It can't drain off, or evaporate, in two weeks. It can eventually turn to varnish, but would take a very long time.)

Is the carb, the original? Has it been rebuilt? If answer is, original and never rebuilt...might be time for a new carb.

toolz
07-16-2013, 12:11 PM
Starting a carb boat is no different than starting a carb car- one pump of the throttle to set the choke, and turn the key. It doesn't need to be "primed". If you are pumping the throttle several times, you are flooding the engine. The choke is automatic- set it with the throttle, and the motor will start if it is in proper tune. My last carb boat started like it was fuel injected, but I was very picky on the tune up. If it will not start after setting the choke with the throttle, it's not procedure problem, it's a tuning problem.

92Prostar190
07-17-2013, 12:13 AM
Thanks for the thoughts and tips everyone. I am going to try some of these options and see what happens. I think it is related to the choke that some have commented on. So it sounds like you "set" the choke by either turning the key on prior to cranking or my pumping the throttle?

Last time out I did remove the flame arrestor to see what the action was. So if the choke is engaged, would it be closed or open? Sorry, not that mechanically inclined.

etduc
07-17-2013, 10:39 AM
Thanks for the thoughts and tips everyone. I am going to try some of these options and see what happens. I think it is related to the choke that some have commented on. So it sounds like you "set" the choke by either turning the key on prior to cranking or my pumping the throttle?

Last time out I did remove the flame arrestor to see what the action was. So if the choke is engaged, would it be closed or open? Sorry, not that mechanically inclined.

Okay. To answer your questions. You have an electric choke, there is nothing to set by turning the key switch or pumping the gas. However, the choke plate can be adjusted mechanically (screw-driver), when engine is cold. The choke plate (metal plate) should be fully or near fully closed, when engine is cold.

When the key is in the on or start position, 12V is immediately sent to the choke, gradually opening the choke...as long as voltage is applied to said coil. After a couple of minutes of hard starting, the choke plate, is fully open. That's why, when people have so called "flooded the engine" they have to let the engine sit for a bit. The reason you smell fuel, choke plate is fully open.

If former owner, had any starting issues, multiple pumping to get engine started. It points to needing carb, looked at or replaced. If carb is over 15 years old, it probably needs replacing.
Yes, they can be rebuilt, but a new (rebuilt) is plug and play. It must be a marine grade carb.

It's an old boat, things wear out, get out of adjustment. Find a professional mechanic. The lake is about having fun, not worrying about getting the boat to start. :)

TayMC197
07-17-2013, 11:24 AM
Here's what you do, put it in the water, try starting it. If it doesn't fire off pull the trans disengage button and throttle backwards (reverse) forward will disable starting. Just pump the throttle backwards a few times while turning over. Should fire off easily. I had a 92 190 and it takes finesse. You'll figure it out.

92Prostar190
07-18-2013, 11:03 AM
Thanks TayMC...I think you are right, it is just something I need to learn how to finesse and then I will have the whole procedure down pat. It's like my weed-eater naturally needs 4 pulls in the choke on position and I have no expectation of it starting. Then one or two pulls with choke off and I am good. I had not heard of pulling the throttle backwards. I typically do not have the trans button engaged at all when starting, in part that the safety coupler on the throttle doesn't work anymore. That shouldn't make a difference right, meaning not having that engaged at all when starting? I don't want to bump something and end up in the back of my truck.

What do you mean though by forward will disable starting? I have certainly pushed the throttle forward after the cranking did not work, thinking I was priming but obviously this is working against me since the choke is wide open as others have said.

I will take the advice of starting in the driveway with a water source to practice. If that doesn't work then I will have to explore the tune or carb options.

CantRepeat
07-18-2013, 12:57 PM
Here's what you do, put it in the water, try starting it. If it doesn't fire off pull the trans disengage button and throttle backwards (reverse) forward will disable starting. Just pump the throttle backwards a few times while turning over. Should fire off easily. I had a 92 190 and it takes finesse. You'll figure it out.

On my 92 with the factory carb, even after a rebuild, I had to do this. But once I picked up the new replacement from Skidim.com and adjusted the choke and idle mixture screws I never needed to touch the gas, even when cold.

A 21 year old carb is going to have worn out butterfly rods and is going to allow air to pass by them. So unless the base plate is replaced it's going to have hard starting issues when cold. The pumping of the gas just matches the air passing in and sets a correct fuel air mixture so it will start.

A new carb is costly but it was the single best part I put on my 92.

CantRepeat
07-18-2013, 03:04 PM
Choke adjustment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5IBSFgYJE

SkiDaddy
07-18-2013, 03:09 PM
On my '93, when I pull the transmission disengage button out (which then prevents the trans from engaging and the prop from spinning), the button is physically in the way of the throttle lever moving past about 40% or so in the forward direction. So when I'm giving throttle to start the engine, I'll typically also go in the reverse direction since the transmission disengage button isn't in the way. I'm guessing that is what the other poster was referring to.

His other comment is that if the engine is off and your throttle is engaged forward or reverse - without the transmission disengage button pulled out - the engine will not start. It is just a safety interlock.

So if the carb is working ok, when you are trying to start the engine and you give throttle (with the transmission disengaged) in either the forward or reverse direction (the direction doesn't matter), what you are doing is squirting some gas from the carb into the intake manifold. On my 20 year old carb (rebuilt recently - but original carb), I have to give about 2-3 squirts (neutral to reverse, neutral to reverse, neutral to reverse) before I turn the key and then it will start right up.

And just to emphasis about the choke - others have talked about using the throttle to "set" the choke. It doesn't work that way. The choke works only by electricity being applied to it. When the key is off and the engine cold, the choke is fully closed. When you turn the key to the "pre-start" position, electricity is supplied to a little heater that activates the choke...as the heater heats up slowly, the choke will slowly rotate from the closed to the fully open position. Takes maybe a minute or two. Suggest removing the flame arrestor from the top of the carb and watching the choke blade when you go through this process - it will all become clear.

Good luck!

CantRepeat
07-18-2013, 04:34 PM
The choke on the carburetor has a fast idle cam which is set by advancing the throttle to full and back to off when the electric choke is cold.

TayMC197
07-18-2013, 04:44 PM
Thanks TayMC...I think you are right, it is just something I need to learn how to finesse and then I will have the whole procedure down pat. It's like my weed-eater naturally needs 4 pulls in the choke on position and I have no expectation of it starting. Then one or two pulls with choke off and I am good. I had not heard of pulling the throttle backwards. I typically do not have the trans button engaged at all when starting, in part that the safety coupler on the throttle doesn't work anymore. That shouldn't make a difference right, meaning not having that engaged at all when starting? I don't want to bump something and end up in the back of my truck.

What do you mean though by forward will disable starting? I have certainly pushed the throttle forward after the cranking did not work, thinking I was priming but obviously this is working against me since the choke is wide open as others have said.

I will take the advice of starting in the driveway with a water source to practice. If that doesn't work then I will have to explore the tune or carb options.

If the transmission is engaged and the throttle isn't in the neutral position, the boat has a safety kill that won't allow the motor to turn over. Prevents starting and the boat taking off. By pull the trans engage switch out, it allows throttle to be applied while turning the key. Try to always start with out throttle then apply it as needed.

My boat ran great but when cold, it took a little finesses but almost always fired right off with the correct combination of throttle and timing.

I loved my 92, just the nature of carbs. I learned to live with it.

catamount
07-18-2013, 06:39 PM
The choke on the carburetor has a fast idle cam which is set by advancing the throttle to full and back to off when the electric choke is cold.

This is not true. Marine 4160s do not have fast idle cams. Marine carbs in general do not have fast idle cams because the throttle can be left in a high idle position unlike an automobile.

There is nothing to "set", 12 volts is doing all the work.

This does seem to be a common misconception, though.

drschemel
07-18-2013, 07:17 PM
When my 1990 Tristar is cold, it wants to stall when you shift from neurtal to forward/reverse. I have noticed there there is no fast idle stop and often wished there was as you have to bring the throttle all the way back before you engage the tranny! A minute or so of patience to let it warm up is all it really needs on mine. As far as I know, the carb has never been rebuit (at least not since I have owned it - about 11 years).

CantRepeat
07-18-2013, 07:42 PM
This is not true. Marine 4160s do not have fast idle cams. Marine carbs in general do not have fast idle cams because the throttle can be left in a high idle position unlike an automobile.

There is nothing to "set", 12 volts is doing all the work.

This does seem to be a common misconception, though.

Why yes, it is true.

My replacement carb had a fast idle cam.

Look at the reference photo.

http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RA052003

I cannot say for sure if my factory holley had one but the replacement from skidim did.

And there is something to set on an electric choke. I know for a fact that my old factory carb had it.

edit, I'm talking about adjusting the electric choke on this. The video I posted shows the adjustment for that part. It's not just applying 12 volts to it.

http://www.holley.com/data/TechService/Technical/4150%204160%20Exploded%20View.pdf

Item 29, fast idle cam holley 4160

And here too

http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417/thread/1174956890/1175475555/My+Holley+Factory+Refurb+450+cfm+4160+Marine+has+a rrived

If it is not on there then I've been drink far too much.

catamount
07-18-2013, 10:14 PM
CantRepeat, I think you may be confusing the fast idle cam with something else. Also, there is a mechanism (de-choke) that opens the choke blade slightly when full throttle is applied (to combat flooding). Maybe you're getting it confused with that?

Please reference this thread: http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=25806

I know that you posted a link to the Holley 4160 parts .PDF but the 4160 spans many applications and the marine version does not have a fast cam assembly.

You can also reference this: http://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?7422-Carb-Issues-running-rough

"marine carbs (at least this one) doesn't have a fast idle cam screw to prevent boats from being put into gear with the engine revving higher than idle speed which would cause people to ram docks, trailers, other boats etc."

This thread may also interest you:

http://forums.iboats.com/mercruiser-i-o-inboard-engines-outdrives/fast-idle-question-omc-holley-pics-225078.html#post1505049

Cliff Notes: no need to "pump" first unless your engine is cold blooded. It does not affect the choke, but will obviously give you a shot a fuel.

CantRepeat
07-18-2013, 11:07 PM
Well, I've been wrong before so I'll do some more reading. It's been a bit since I work on my 92.

The part I know for sure is the adjustment on the choke housing. I'll have to look at some more old photos of my 92s new carb and update.

kenps190
07-19-2013, 04:12 PM
New to the discussion, so send me to a string on this topic if one is out there. I searched but didn't find.

92 Prostar 190 with 351 Holly carb which I seem to be flooding straight off the trailer at the dock. I have had to tie up out of the way and let it sit for 10 minutes that last two times I launched. Then it starts up fine and I never have a problem the rest of the day. But it is both embarrassing and frustrating to not fire right up.

My process is to typically prime by pushing the throttle forward 2-3 times before cranking. Previous owner said he did the same or more and never had a problem. I can tell it is getting gas as I can smell it. When cranking seems to be doing nothing but turning the motor over, I have often primed it once more between cranks.

Recently I tried no priming, thinking I was pushing too much gas, but the same thing happened. I think this is on me and if I would properly prime it then it would be fine. I have to wonder if I am even priming I guess. I do push the throttle all the way forward as far as I can tell. I have perfect pass if that matters at all.

Any suggestions for me here?

I had a similar problem last year. Ran fine in the driveway but got to the ramp and would flood. I found the carb bowls were overflowing. just enough angle at the ramp to create problems. Rebuilt the carb. problem solved.