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View Full Version : well.....Oklahoma is getting ready to start it's "Education" Lottery....


milkmania
10-06-2005, 10:50 AM
I've never lived in a state that had a lottery...
and this is titled an Education lottery.

anybody got any insight as to what this is going to do for our state?
or education?

basically I'm asking if we're screwed now or "there goes the neighborhood"

Leroy
10-06-2005, 11:04 AM
The Indiana Lottery helped reduce my car tags alot. Seems good to me! :rolleyes: Reduce the expensive luxury car tags, guess the people making the rules may have a few of these cars also.

Distributions since the Lottery's inception through 3/31/2005 have been allocated to the following:



$ 794.3million has been used to lower license plate taxes

$455.1 million to Teachers' Retirement Fund

$293 million has been designated for public schools' tuition support

$267.2 million to the Pension Relief Fund to help pay for the retirement benefits of police officers and fire fighters

$263.2 million to Build Indiana Capitol Projects Fund

$136.1million has been transferred to the General Fund

$127.7million has been appropriated to the Property Tax Replacement Fund

$100.6million has been transferred to the Build Indiana Fund to be allocated by the General Assembly or State Budget Committee

$99.2million has been allocated for school technology

$45.2 million to local road construction

$30.0 million has been dedicated to job creation and economic development
$1.8million has been used to fund the Help America Vote Act

bcampbe7
10-06-2005, 11:10 AM
I've never lived in a state that had a lottery...
and this is titled an Education lottery.

anybody got any insight as to what this is going to do for our state?
or education?

basically I'm asking if we're screwed now or "there goes the neighborhood"


Tennessee is one of the newer States to start a lottery. I think, so far, it is a good thing. As far as I know, any student with something like a 3.0 or better high school gpa gets a scholarship.

LakePirate
10-06-2005, 11:20 AM
As a resident of the one of the states that started it all, I feel that it will ruin the university system. While I usually do not get involved in political discussions, this is one that hits close to home. I was a recipient of the HOPE scholarship in Georgia when the program started. In theory it is great, you get a B average in High School you get to go to a state college for free as long as you maintain the B average. Well what I have seen it do is ruin the universities. Now students that could not afford to get into a particular university (let's say UGA) can afford to do so, great. Well they can only handle so many students, so borderline Joe who has always wanted to go to UGA can't get in and has to go to another school (let's say Georgia Southern). Borderline Joe is upset because he is not at UGA and is constantly disgruntled because he is not where he wants to be. (this did not happen to me by the way)

Secondly, you now have a large number of students that really have no desire to go to college but since it is free will look at it as the 13 grade. They go down to a school and hang out on the state's dime for a year, partying and what not only to lose the grant because they didn't go to class. This seems all well and good until you look at the additional strain that this puts on the university. They now have to use all of their monies to build dorms to house all of these students as well as build buildings so they can go to class. In turn the tuition costs rise, but only so much because the state is not going to take that big a hit. So the budgets of all the departments are cut to compensate. Well, they have to get their money somewhere so they take monies from publishing companies to use new books every year. This means no used books to be purchased because every year there is a new book. Thus leading to increased costs for students to buy books every year. So now Johnny C Average has to pay more to go to school in tuition costs, book costs, and rent. All because Ricky didn't want to go to college but is going because it is free went to school for a year.

Look at some of the stats from state schools that have had the HOPE grant and the percentages of people losing the scholarship after one year as well as the increased enrollments.

Getting a B average in High School becomes the standard. High Schools make sure that as many people as possible get the B average so they can claim that they had x number of students to receive the HOPE scholarship. What constitutes a B gets changed district wide and the grading system is compromised.

Ric
10-06-2005, 11:31 AM
If I remember it right, when we got the lottery, we were sold by ann richards that it was for education, but technically the money goes to the "general fund". Whateverthehell that means. I dont have the numbers and I dont hate the lottery but I also dont play.
Pirate, I think what you speak of is a good exercise in economics and I believe that the exponentially rising price of tuition is related to all these "freebies".
An old HS coach buddy of mine once said that they (hs students) are not all going to go to college.... "some of them are just going to change your oil".
Kinda funny and simple, but true.

maristarman
10-06-2005, 11:47 AM
My wife is a teacher and I know when they started it here in California, under the same guise, my wife actually got a check for a couple of hundred dollars a year to spend on books, classroom supplies, etc.

Of course, the checks stopped coming a few years back and she and all her co-workers wonder where the money for "education" has gone.

Meanwhile, the state expanded the lottery from one "Super-Lotto" with two draws a week (Wednesday and Saturday) to now two "Super-lotto's" with draws Tuesday and Friday as well.

If you check out http://www.calottery.com/ you can see they have some other games also.

From what we see, the money isn't getting down to the schools.

richardsoncd
10-06-2005, 11:52 AM
I somewhat agree with Lake Pirate, I also recently graduated from UGA, the fact is, more applicants apply to in state schools, which makes the top tier of instate schools standards rise and the quality of education rises as well, and as the schools get bigger the infrastructure must follow so the cost of tuition, books, fees, etc. go up. By the time I graduated, large classes did not give students hand outs because they cut the paper budget, also if you wanted to print from a computer lab then you had to pay per sheet even though you had to pay a very high computer lab fee each semester. If I actually went to class or the labs I probably would have been pissed. But I must say I did go to school for free for a couple of years, then I lost HOPE (the scholarship)....but it is good to have, just have to make sure there is a good long term plan for the growing pains. Our main problem is a horrible, semi mentally retarded president (of the University not America)....but thats a whole diffrent story. I say get it, win a billion or two and buy your pals on TT new boats!!!!

Ric
10-06-2005, 11:59 AM
I somewhat agree with Lake Pirate, I also recently graduated from UGA, the fact is, more applicants apply to in state schools, which makes the top tier of instate schools standards rise and the quality of education rises as well, and as the schools get bigger the infrastructure must follow so the cost of tuition, books, fees, etc. go up. By the time I graduated, large classes did not give students hand outs because they cut the paper budget, also if you wanted to print from a computer lab then you had to pay per sheet even though you had to pay a very high computer lab fee each semester. If I actually went to class or the labs I probably would have been pissed. But I must say I did go to school for free for a couple of years, then I lost HOPE....but it is good to have, just have to make sure there is a good long term plan for the growing pains. Our main problem is a horrible, semi mentally retarded president....but thats a whole diffrent story. I say get it, win a billion or two and buy your pals on TT new boats!!!!
:uglyhamme :popcorn: .

richardsoncd
10-06-2005, 01:35 PM
to clear up my previous statement, the semi mentally retarded president I spoke of was UGA's President Michael Adams, and the hope I lost as a student was The Hope Scholarship.

Jorski
10-06-2005, 01:44 PM
Governements always do this, namely confuse the issue by wrapping it up in another issue.

Issue one...should there be a lottery
Issue two...should there be free education offered to some population

As for issue one:

Lotteries are just a tax, a voluntary tax, but a tax none the less. They most unfortunately tax those who are the least equipped to make a rational decision - ie not to play. These games are devised in such a way as to play on the mind, to entrap the stupid, or at least the innumerate. It is funny that politicians constantly talk about tax cuts while at the same time they are introducing gambling and lotteries at a record pace. They do this because they are addicted to the revenues that are created.

As for issue two:

It is interesting to read the discussion about the dilution of educational quality offered if more students are introduced to the system. I have no doubt that this occurs, but must admit that I have no direct experience with it. If it is such a good thing to offer free education (and I lean towards thinking it is), then why would it have to be funded by lotteries? I suspect it is more because that wrapping up a lottery in flag of education makes the lottery more appealing rather than just government pushing for good policy.

Even if you are for the education part of these things, does it really make sense ask the poorest, least educated members of society to pay for it? And, that is indeed who buys most of the lottery tickets.

bcampbe7
10-06-2005, 02:04 PM
Lotteries are just a tax, a voluntary tax, but a tax none the less. They most unfortunately tax those who are the least equipped to make a rational decision - ie not to play. These games are devised in such a way as to play on the mind, to entrap the stupid, or at least the innumerate. It is funny that politicians constantly talk about tax cuts while at the same time they are introducing gambling and lotteries at a record pace. They do this because they are addicted to the revenues that are created.

Even if you are for the education part of these things, does it really make sense ask the poorest, least educated members of society to pay for it? And, that is indeed who buys most of the lottery tickets.

Yes... Even without the lottery the poorest, least educated members of society will still be poor and uneducated. They are lazy! Do something to correct that aspect of their persona and I will have some sort of sympathy for them. Allowing them to live on welfare for their entire life is obviously not working. My wife works with many poor children in our area. Not one of their parents has a job. It's not becasue they can't work. It's becasue the Government "pays" them to not work. They can't afford to feed and cloth their kids, but they can sure afford their beer and cigarettes. I feel sorry for the children, not the adults who blow their paycheck check on the lottery and other non-essential things.

Jorski
10-06-2005, 02:29 PM
Yes... Even without the lottery the poorest, least educated members of society will still be poor and uneducated. They are lazy! Do something to correct that aspect of their persona and I will have some sort of sympathy for them. Allowing them to live on welfare for their entire life is obviously not working. My wife works with many poor children in our area. Not one of their parents has a job. It's not becasue they can't work. It's becasue the Government "pays" them to not work. They can't afford to feed and cloth their kids, but they can sure afford their beer and cigarettes. I feel sorry for the children, not the adults who blow their paycheck check on the lottery and other non-essential things.

Yes, but how does a lottery help them or their kids?

bcampbe7
10-06-2005, 02:39 PM
Yes, but how does a lottery help them or their kids?


They would be set if they won! J/K


You are right, it doesn't help them. But the parents will still neglect their kids with or without the lottery.

LakePirate
10-06-2005, 02:46 PM
I somewhat agree with Lake Pirate, I also recently graduated from UGA, the fact is, more applicants apply to in state schools, which makes the top tier of instate schools standards rise and the quality of education rises as well, and as the schools get bigger the infrastructure must follow so the cost of tuition, books, fees, etc. go up. By the time I graduated, large classes did not give students hand outs because they cut the paper budget, also if you wanted to print from a computer lab then you had to pay per sheet even though you had to pay a very high computer lab fee each semester. If I actually went to class or the labs I probably would have been pissed. But I must say I did go to school for free for a couple of years, then I lost HOPE (the scholarship)....but it is good to have, just have to make sure there is a good long term plan for the growing pains. Our main problem is a horrible, semi mentally retarded president (of the University not America)....but thats a whole diffrent story. I say get it, win a billion or two and buy your pals on TT new boats!!!!

Graduated from Georgia Southern. Just wanted to clear that up. :D

Are higher standards really what we are getting? The SAT has increased the scoring so my score that got me scholarship offers to colleges and universities now is below the average score of incoming freshmen. So in turn I believe that you have artificially improved the standards. What is at risk is the quality of the education. Like you point out, fees for everything from printing paper in the computer lab to not getting handouts to class size getting out of control. So what are all the additional funds that you/the lotto pay in tuition and other fees going for? Dorms and classrooms for the one year bunch. The real tragedy is for those not on HOPE or are from out of state who have to take the hit in the wallet because it looks good from a politicians stand point to help students. Are they really helping?

Georgia had a surplus of monies from the lottery initially. They had warehouses full of computers that were not getting deployed. Now because of the cost of doing business has risen for the colleges they have to require more and more monies, costing the lotto more money so they have to trim back. Where are they trimming back? In the public high schools and elementary schools. They are the ones who were seeing an increase in computers and monies but that gets cut out to continue to pay for the big expense...tuition to state universities.

While I understand the economics of this, I also see that it is artificially increased because of the influx of students.

Jorski
10-06-2005, 02:47 PM
They would be set if they won! J/K


You are right, it doesn't help them. But the parents will still neglect their kids with or without the lottery.


Agreed , on both counts.

bcampbe7
10-06-2005, 02:49 PM
Graduated from Georgia Southern. Just wanted to clear that up. :D

Are higher standards really what we are getting? The SAT has increased the scoring so my score that got me scholarship offers to colleges and universities now is below the average score of incoming freshmen. So in turn I believe that you have artificially improved the standards. What is at risk is the quality of the education. Like you point out, fees for everything from printing paper in the computer lab to not getting handouts to class size getting out of control. So what are all the additional funds that you/the lotto pay in tuition and other fees going for? Dorms and classrooms for the one year bunch. The real tragedy is for those not on HOPE or are from out of state who have to take the hit in the wallet because it looks good from a politicians stand point to help students. Are they really helping?

Georgia had a surplus of monies from the lottery initially. They had warehouses full of computers that were not getting deployed. Now because of the cost of doing business has risen for the colleges they have to require more and more monies, costing the lotto more money so they have to trim back. Where are they trimming back? In the public high schools and elementary schools. They are the ones who were seeing an increase in computers and monies but that gets cut out to continue to pay for the big expense...tuition to state universities.

While I understand the economics of this, I also see that it is artificially increased because of the influx of students.


Maybe they should make the 1 year students who get a 2.0 or lower pay back the entire amount.

LakePirate
10-06-2005, 02:53 PM
Maybe they should make the 1 year students who get a 2.0 or lower pay back the entire amount.


I agree 100%. Have it as a loan, if you make it to the 2nd year, it gets wiped away and they pay upfront. If not you can pay it off for the rest of your life like everyone else.

richardsoncd
10-06-2005, 03:05 PM
The standards have gotten higher, I know for a fact that even before they reaccesssed the SAT, the scores were on the rise for applicants and the GPA cutoff has gotten a lot higher as well. I probably couldn't get into UGA now with the scores I made in high school. The real problem is the abuse of the money once in the states hands. The HOPE scholarship is good in the sense that those who can't afford to go to college could, when the program first started it had an annual household income cap of 100,000/year. If your household income was higher than that then you wouldn't get it, now everyone can take advantage. As for having to pay it back...I guess now that I am out it sounds great. ;)