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Nick911
06-03-2013, 06:23 PM
All. Setting my ballast timers for my 2013 X25. What times have you guys been using? Do the tanks fill and empty at the same speed.

Also, have been having an issue. Sometimes when I turn my boat off and on again the tanks are showing water in them all of a sudden. Anyone else have this issue?

Mastercraft13
06-03-2013, 08:34 PM
My rears have a shorter time then my center ballast because the center is a little bigger. I don't know my exact times, but just bumped mine up this past weekend because I wasn't getting anything out of the overfill vents so was not sure if they were filling completely. My suggestion is use the stop watch on your smart phone if you have one, bump all timers up to 5 min and time the fill empty by when water comes out of the vents for fill and for empty you can tell a difference in the sound of the pump when it runs dry and adjust accordingly. I just went with the assumption that they are programmed with a general time at the factory and no two pumps will move the exact same amount of water. Hope this helps.

Nick911
06-03-2013, 08:54 PM
Timers and senders for 2013. I think the problem may be in the fact that I have extra sacs plumbed to overflows in rear.

Kimper
06-03-2013, 09:17 PM
Also, have been having an issue. Sometimes when I turn my boat off and on again the tanks are showing water in them all of a sudden. Anyone else have this issue?

Yup, noticing some weird ballast readings when turning on/off boat... Gotta experiment more next weekend...

Nick911
06-03-2013, 09:30 PM
Man I should have bought a G23...please tell me this isn't a repeat of 2012. Is it too much to ask to have a ballast system that works?

onewheat
06-03-2013, 11:28 PM
How do you adjust ballast timers on a '13?

Mastercraft13
06-04-2013, 01:05 AM
How do you adjust ballast timers on a '13?

Since I'm not at the boat just from memory hit the menu button and from there it is one or two screens where the ballast timers are.

AZX45OD
06-04-2013, 01:24 AM
I have extra sacks plumbed into the rear tanks, so the timers are set to fill the hard tanks at "50%" full and then the hard tanks and bags at "100%" full. They have worked great and always set the ballast according to how I have the profile set. I have had occasions where the tanks and/or bags fill as dictated by the profile, and then randomly during the set the ballast gauge will suddenly read differently than what the profile specified. At first I thought the pumps had kicked in and were dumping or adding ballast randomly, but upon further inspection the ballast was still consistent with the profile setting, the gauges were just off for some reason. I am planning on asking my dealer, but I am sure a software update would fix this since it is only the display that is off, not the actual tanks. Are you experiencing something similar?

Nick911
06-04-2013, 02:11 AM
So allegedly the tanks have timers AND a sending unit.

I'm planning on calling MC tomorrow. That's 4 people experiencing the same problem, 3 with PnP and one without. All my tanks were showing empty tonight at the launch. I emptied my tanks while on trailer just to see and the port tank had about 2 minutes worth of water in it, or, over half full.

onewheat
06-04-2013, 03:42 AM
So allegedly the tanks have timers AND a sending unit.

I'm planning on calling MC tomorrow. That's 4 people experiencing the same problem, 3 with PnP and one without. All my tanks were showing empty tonight at the launch. I emptied my tanks while on trailer just to see and the port tank had about 2 minutes worth of water in it, or, over half full.

I didn't think PnP was available anymore on the 13's?

Mastercraft13
06-04-2013, 09:47 AM
I didn't think PnP was available anymore on the 13's?

X-star is the only model for 2013 that you can get from the factory with PNP as far as I know.

Nick911
06-04-2013, 10:13 AM
By PnP I mean owners that have had extra ballast plumbed into overflows.

FourFourty
06-04-2013, 10:18 AM
Man I should have bought a G23...please tell me this isn't a repeat of 2012. Is it too much to ask to have a ballast system that works?

You plumbed in extra bags.... you have to get your timers dialed in, it is no big deal. If your timers are set too low, because of the extra bags, it is going to leave water in the tank. It will think it is empty because of the times that you have set for empty and fill. It uses those times as a guideline and also checks the sender readings once in a while to verify levels.

It took me an hour or so of changing times, and setting up the appropriate fill/empty times after I added the bags. It works perfectly now.

Nick911
06-04-2013, 10:56 AM
Nope it's showings sporadic levels regardless of bags. I confirmed on trailer tanks were empty day before. Get on water it tells me my tanks all have a different percentage. I bring them back to zero, turn ignition off, turn it back on, and one tank is showing 100%. Drain it, turn off ignition, then next tank is showing 20%.

The KGB is also acting up and it has no bags.

Nick911
06-04-2013, 10:56 AM
Anyone have a contact # for MC?

Lucky26
06-04-2013, 05:17 PM
423-884-2221

Nick911
06-05-2013, 10:43 AM
Dealer told me to disconnect batteries for 10 minutes then reconnect. Well give that a try today see if it resets system.

Confirmed with dealer there are senders and timers and they work together to determine ballast levels.

Might be a programming/software issue.

Aric'sX15
06-05-2013, 05:48 PM
can you not tell if your tanks are empty or not based on the sound it makes when you have the pumps on drain? i can always tell on my 15 with pnp.

Nick911
06-05-2013, 08:11 PM
You can generally tell when they go from full to empty as the pump surges, however, you cannot hear this while underway or while you are revving at 1500 rpm as per ballast pump specs.

Also, the point is, my indicators should work.

Aric'sX15
06-05-2013, 08:28 PM
well I understand. just making sure they aren't actually filling up with water. and if I'm not mistaken the pumps get even louder when you rev it up, no? never revved my boat to 1500 to fill the tanks and I've been fine for three years. I understand you're pissed, but talking down to me like i have no clue what I'm talking about isn't going to help you either.

Nick911
06-05-2013, 08:55 PM
well I understand. just making sure they aren't actually filling up with water. and if I'm not mistaken the pumps get even louder when you rev it up, no? never revved my boat to 1500 to fill the tanks and I've been fine for three years. I understand you're pissed, but talking down to me like i have no clue what I'm talking about isn't going to help you either.

Sorry wasn't talking down. As per MC they haven't heard this issue yet. Anyone with high hours on their 2013's yet?

Stefan
06-06-2013, 03:14 AM
Dealer told me to disconnect batteries for 10 minutes then reconnect. Well give that a try today see if it resets system.

Confirmed with dealer there are senders and timers and they work together to determine ballast levels.

Might be a programming/software issue.

Since the pumps weren't even running after the reset, and the sending units are already giving values to the electronics I'd give an uneducated guess that the sending units have a problem. But rather than looking like being hardware, it's probably software...

After what I've experienced with MC with numerous problems on my 2012, I guess they won't really talk to you or involve you in the process for (faster or better) problem solving, IMO that means they already know about their problems or they don't care to much for tech feedback. They just put it all on the dealer to mess with you, which doesen't get any more information than you either. You'll just wait and wait and wait and with one software version after another being put on your boat the problems might be gone someday, in my case, I count 20 months from manufacturing and 13 months from boat delivery to trouble free.

Nick911
06-06-2013, 10:43 AM
Hoping for a quick fix. It does seem to be software-related. Maybe ill need to remove PnP bags?

Stefan
06-06-2013, 02:00 PM
Hoping for a quick fix. It does seem to be software-related. Maybe ill need to remove PnP bags?

Hoping for the best, expecting... well you get the point. Don't think removing the piggback bags will help, why do you think so?

pap
06-06-2013, 02:02 PM
I noted this issue as well and was informed by my dealer that the tanks have sending units but they are not involved with timing of emptying.

Therefore what is happening is that we get timers set up to empty the tank (and I run mine until I hear they are dry) but then when boat shifts position etc more water may come down into the sensor area and so it changes again.

I have bags plumbed as overflow from my tanks. I don't know where the pumps are in relation to the actual hard tanks, but it appears they may not be at a drop/low point so the entire tank is not always sloped correctly to drain 100%

Basically at this point I have my timers set to pump to just a bit of overflow and the empty correctly. When I pull out, I can often run another 30 sec to a min of water out of them.

Nick911
06-06-2013, 02:54 PM
I noted this issue as well and was informed by my dealer that the tanks have sending units but they are not involved with timing of emptying.

Therefore what is happening is that we get timers set up to empty the tank (and I run mine until I hear they are dry) but then when boat shifts position etc more water may come down into the sensor area and so it changes again.

I have bags plumbed as overflow from my tanks. I don't know where the pumps are in relation to the actual hard tanks, but it appears they may not be at a drop/low point so the entire tank is not always sloped correctly to drain 100%

Basically at this point I have my timers set to pump to just a bit of overflow and the empty correctly. When I pull out, I can often run another 30 sec to a min of water out of them.

Thanks for the thorough response.

Does make sense, however, for example in one instance, I turned my boat on and it was showing 100% in one tank (and I know it was thoroughly drained), therefore, I had to empty for nearly 6 minutes to drain an empty tank and get it to show zero. The shortcut to this is to go into the timer screen and set the timer for 10 seconds then the pump only needs to run for a few seconds to get to zero. I wonder if those senders could be disabled somehow?

It sounds to me like you feel your system is working adequately? I have 7 people now with 2013's that are all citing issues with these levels, funny considering MC told my dealer this is the first MC has heard about it.

pap
06-06-2013, 03:24 PM
I'm not sure mine is working 100% yet, but my boat is new, only 20+ hours. However the explanation given by the dealer explains the variation that I had seen personally (pumping to 0% then having later show tank with water in it typically 10-20%).

I would have hoped the system was engineered so that the pumps would draw from a low point which would always empty completely regardless of boat position, but perhaps that is not possible or cost effective.

I assumed since the pumps were timer driven that the "full %" was based on timing. I still don't quite understand how these sensors work as I've got for example 750 bags over my rear tanks as overflow so the tank sender unit will be 100% "full" when the whole system on that side is not even 1/2 full in terms of overall capacity.

Still learning myself, but just sharing what I know / have been told thus far.

Nick911
06-06-2013, 03:58 PM
Hoping for the best, expecting... well you get the point. Don't think removing the piggback bags will help, why do you think so?

Not sure, I guess if they can't fix the problem, it will leave less potential for variability in the system as removing them will change the rear tanks from 650lbs to 200lbs each. Sounds like more people than not are getting extra bags plumbed in.

Aric'sX15
06-07-2013, 12:20 PM
Try the breaker. Was out on a 2013 supra SA450 last night and the ballast showed it was full, but they weren't. Flipped the breaker and they're golden. The ballast timers show they're full based on the time the switch is on, there isn't a float or anything to my knowledge.

Nick911
06-07-2013, 12:44 PM
Which breaker?

Aric'sX15
06-07-2013, 04:13 PM
The circuit panel that's on the ballast relays if that makes sense?

Nick911
06-07-2013, 04:22 PM
The circuit panel that's on the ballast relays if that makes sense?

Sorry. Relays where the master power switch is?

Nick911
06-07-2013, 04:23 PM
Try the breaker. Was out on a 2013 supra SA450 last night and the ballast showed it was full, but they weren't. Flipped the breaker and they're golden. The ballast timers show they're full based on the time the switch is on, there isn't a float or anything to my knowledge.

There is a timer and a sender (not sure how the sender works). I verified this through my dealer who verified through MC.

GoneBoatN
06-07-2013, 06:00 PM
There is a timer and a sender (not sure how the sender works). I verified this through my dealer who verified through MC.

So the way the 2010 worked (and I realize your new systems may be different) is that the ballast in the Rider settings of the BIG/Viper/Medallion was controlled via timer. So lets say you have the pump on that tank set for 2 minutes fill time. And you have a Rider setting that is set for 50% on that tank. Then the Big will run that pump for 1 minute (.5 x 2 minutes) to get a 50% full tank. The display of the ballast tank is via the sender. It took my dealer (no fault of theirs) a long time to get this information from Mastercraft. I actually came to this conclusion before I got the explanation from MC.

My experience was that, if I remember to run the boat at a consistent 1500 RPM while filling the tank, I would get close to the correct % as long as I had the run time set pretty close to what it would take to achieve 100% full ballast tank. If I forgot to run the engine at 1500 RPM (or any other variable like driving the boat while filling/emptying ballast) while filling the ballast then I got way different that the % that the rider setting was set for. That makes sense because if you listen to you ballast pump run, running at 1500 RPM over idle, the pump runs much faster/harder; I assume that this is because it needs/gets the extra juice provided by running the alternator faster - just stands to reason. Things got further off if I switch from one rider to another without emptying.

I do understand that your issue sounds different. I just encourage you to keep pinging on MC to explain how yours works (the technical details not appearances) as there may be some rhyme and reason to it.

dgall
06-07-2013, 07:26 PM
I experienced a similar issue in my 2013 X10. Have 400lbs extra in each rear locker, stock in the middle. After extensive talks with my dealer, I think they've got the issue tracked down (will let you know this weekend as I'm picking it up from the dealer tomorrow morning).

Basically, there was a venting issue in the extra sacs that causes them to not drain at the speed they should while the pumps are running. So, you'll run the pump to drain from 100% to 0 (this is all based on time), then then shut off the engine (I found you can leave the electrical on and still have the issue). Restarting the engine, the sensors read the water level in the stock ballast tanks only, so lets say because of the venting issue, you only got the extra sac empty, but the stock is still full, it will say you're at 100%. It can be really frustrating when it says you're at 75% full, so you fill that last 25% to find it hasn't touched your bags at all - this really ruined my experience first time out.

Anyways, the whole issue is caused by the sensors only being able to read the stock ballast level, but using timers to run the fill/empty cycles. So, you'll need to always leave your boat 100% empty (or 100% full), otherwise when you cycle power it will give you ballast levels that aren't taking the bags into account. This whole issue is made worse with the venting issues because the empty timers get out of whack. My dealer is fixing the venting issue which should hopefully allow me to leave the boat at actually 100% or 0% whenever I cycle the engine on/off.

For those who like numbers...say you have a 500 stock tank, and 500lb bag working together:

If you're starting from empty, and fill the boat to 25% you'd have 250lbs.
If you then cycle the engine on and off, your gauges will say 50% at that corner, because the sensors read 50% full in the stock tank.
You then try to fill that corner all the way up, but your timer will stop at 750lbs because it thought you were half-full.
If you then turn the engine on/off again, it will say 100% full, and you can never get that last 250lbs in.

So, you have to always start at 0% ballast. You can do this from the initial scenario where we had 250lbs in:
Gauges read 50% full - tell them to empty.
It will empty in half the time it thinks it should, at which time you could either cycle power or just let the pumps run (not sure of long-term implications of doing that though?)
You'll then be at true 0%, and you can actually start filling now.

Hope that helps shed some light on the issue!

Mastercraft13
06-07-2013, 07:42 PM
I have a 2013 x10, not a big fan of the system. I think it would be much better to turn a switch on until the water comes out of the overflow and be done with it. I can generally tell when they are empty by the sound of the pumps.

Nick911
06-07-2013, 09:10 PM
So the way the 2010 worked (and I realize your new systems may be different) is that the ballast in the Rider settings of the BIG/Viper/Medallion was controlled via timer. So lets say you have the pump on that tank set for 2 minutes fill time. And you have a Rider setting that is set for 50% on that tank. Then the Big will run that pump for 1 minute (.5 x 2 minutes) to get a 50% full tank. The display of the ballast tank is via the sender. It took my dealer (no fault of theirs) a long time to get this information from Mastercraft. I actually came to this conclusion before I got the explanation from MC.

My experience was that, if I remember to run the boat at a consistent 1500 RPM while filling the tank, I would get close to the correct % as long as I had the run time set pretty close to what it would take to achieve 100% full ballast tank. If I forgot to run the engine at 1500 RPM (or any other variable like driving the boat while filling/emptying ballast) while filling the ballast then I got way different that the % that the rider setting was set for. That makes sense because if you listen to you ballast pump run, running at 1500 RPM over idle, the pump runs much faster/harder; I assume that this is because it needs/gets the extra juice provided by running the alternator faster - just stands to reason. Things got further off if I switch from one rider to another without emptying.

I do understand that your issue sounds different. I just encourage you to keep pinging on MC to explain how yours works (the technical details not appearances) as there may be some rhyme and reason to it.

Thanks for the in depth input. So to summarize:

The timers are strictly to tell the pumps hot long to empty or fill, and the gauge at that time is indicating fill levels based on that timing metric. However, the senders will determine actual level. So, senders determine level, timers determine fill time. Makes sense, and no doubt there is some variability based on engine RPM.

Nick911
06-07-2013, 10:22 PM
I experienced a similar issue in my 2013 X10. Have 400lbs extra in each rear locker, stock in the middle. After extensive talks with my dealer, I think they've got the issue tracked down (will let you know this weekend as I'm picking it up from the dealer tomorrow morning).

Basically, there was a venting issue in the extra sacs that causes them to not drain at the speed they should while the pumps are running. So, you'll run the pump to drain from 100% to 0 (this is all based on time), then then shut off the engine (I found you can leave the electrical on and still have the issue). Restarting the engine, the sensors read the water level in the stock ballast tanks only, so lets say because of the venting issue, you only got the extra sac empty, but the stock is still full, it will say you're at 100%. It can be really frustrating when it says you're at 75% full, so you fill that last 25% to find it hasn't touched your bags at all - this really ruined my experience first time out.

Anyways, the whole issue is caused by the sensors only being able to read the stock ballast level, but using timers to run the fill/empty cycles. So, you'll need to always leave your boat 100% empty (or 100% full), otherwise when you cycle power it will give you ballast levels that aren't taking the bags into account. This whole issue is made worse with the venting issues because the empty timers get out of whack. My dealer is fixing the venting issue which should hopefully allow me to leave the boat at actually 100% or 0% whenever I cycle the engine on/off.

For those who like numbers...say you have a 500 stock tank, and 500lb bag working together:

If you're starting from empty, and fill the boat to 25% you'd have 250lbs.
If you then cycle the engine on and off, your gauges will say 50% at that corner, because the sensors read 50% full in the stock tank.
You then try to fill that corner all the way up, but your timer will stop at 750lbs because it thought you were half-full.
If you then turn the engine on/off again, it will say 100% full, and you can never get that last 250lbs in.

So, you have to always start at 0% ballast. You can do this from the initial scenario where we had 250lbs in:
Gauges read 50% full - tell them to empty.
It will empty in half the time it thinks it should, at which time you could either cycle power or just let the pumps run (not sure of long-term implications of doing that though?)
You'll then be at true 0%, and you can actually start filling now.

Hope that helps shed some light on the issue!

Ok. This does explain everything, the key being that the extra bags are screwing up the venting. I thought this as the suction does constrict the bags which can restrict venting. You are right then that even with venting fixed, the system can only be used at 100% or 0%, and nowhere in between.

For example, my plan on my 25 was to fill rear tanks to 33% (which would be my stock tanks full) for wakeboarding. This will work until I turn the engine off where it will then go to 100% (which it is).

Ill spend some time next time on the water testing this very theory.

Lastly, how is your dealer planning on fixing the venting issue?

GoneBoatN
06-08-2013, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the in depth input. So to summarize:

The timers are strictly to tell the pumps hot long to empty or fill, and the gauge at that time is indicating fill levels based on that timing metric. However, the senders will determine actual level. So, senders determine level, timers determine fill time. Makes sense, and no doubt there is some variability based on engine RPM.

Yes, that is the way it works on my 2010 with Medallion controls. I can't think of another way they would use "timers and senders" but who know except for Mastercraft and Murphy...

mthon7
06-09-2013, 10:58 AM
I only have 30 hours on my X-30 but I am having the same problem. I will fill tanks and they show 100% but after surfing for a few minutes the screen will show 47%. Also my center tank fill quicker than others which seems backwards. When I refill tanks I get immediate overflow. It is a bit frustrating as the seemingly lower tech system on our 09 X-15 did cause this problem because I could not see fill level.

Nick911
06-09-2013, 11:37 AM
Everyone having these issues should be contacting their dealers and Mastercraft. MC told my dealer they had not heard this issue yet and my dealer (biggest MC dealer in world) had not heard this issue yet, however, everyone with a new 2013 here is having these issues.

pap
06-09-2013, 06:00 PM
Was out yesterday and noted center tank filled per my timing settings with about 10 seconds overflow (so it's good and full). Pull once and it now says 85% or something. Not sure what's going on in there but at this point it's frustrating because you basically can't trust what the thing says.

It's not a big deal if you want bags completely full (just watch for overflow) but the whole idea of custom profiles is to have less than that but still reliable, which it at this point is not.

Print a copy of this thread and take it to the dealer that says nobody having issues....

MattsCraft
06-09-2013, 07:24 PM
OK boys, pretty sure this is how the system works. Note... This is not 100% substantiated by MC, however it all makes sense.

First - I have installed 2-600lb Sumo sacs in the rears - Perfect size for the X25 and just the right amount of extra for surfing with 2-8 peeps and 70% full for wakeboarding. A 10 min install.

The ballast tank fill and empty from the "Profile" is based on time only. Meaning, the system does not know how full the bags are, nor does it consider the actual tank levels. You need to find out how much time it takes to fill your bags to 100%, from there, like in my case if you want the total to be 70% follow this procedure.

Go to your profile i.e. Max Wake - I found to fill the rear tanks and 600lb bags was 8.5 min. If you want the the total system to be at 70% from here, switch the pumps to empty, once you have the BIG screen in that profile on the tanks at the correct level, shut off the pump and save your profile. Your Max Wake setting is now at the correct level. i.e. 70%

The system will now calculate the time to fill to 70% for that particular profile. Keep in mind, with overflow bags it is not going to be 100% accurate as the system again, only monitors time, other factors such as filling in motion or via battery only etc. (Not recommended by me:D) will effect this. The same rules apply for filling and emptying regardless of year:

Fill sitting still at 1500 RPM, empty in motion at 1500 RPM or more! Your pumps will perform at optimum, last longer, impellers longer etc. I had 390 hrs on my last boat, never lost a pump or had to replace an impeller and they were going strong when I sold the boat!

Now when you go to the Ballast/Trim section, this screen gives you what is actually in the hard tanks (Floats), again, if you have bags, does not show what is left there... Only the hard tanks, if after you empty, go to this screen to see if your empty time is long enough and adjust accordingly.

For me with the 600lb bags, I have set the timers as follows:

Port Fill - 8:30...................Port Empty - 9:30
KGB Fill - 6:00.................KGB Empty - 6:30
Starboard Fill 8:30............Starboard Empty - 9:30

Hope this helps, system is flawless, works well.

P.S. I did have a screen lock up this weekend, turn of the battery switch, back on and the system re-boots. Don't hate on MC, this is just computer FM - Fing Magic - Never had a computer or smart phone lock up ever.........:rolleyes:

Nick911
06-09-2013, 08:25 PM
OK boys, pretty sure this is how the system works. Note... This is not 100% substantiated by MC, however it all makes sense.

First - I have installed 2-600lb Sumo sacs in the rears - Perfect size for the X25 and just the right amount of extra for surfing with 2-8 peeps and 70% full for wakeboarding. A 10 min install.

The ballast tank fill and empty from the "Profile" is based on time only. Meaning, the system does not know how full the bags are, nor does it consider the actual tank levels. You need to find out how much time it takes to fill your bags to 100%, from there, like in my case if you want the total to be 70% follow this procedure.

Go to your profile i.e. Max Wake - I found to fill the rear tanks and 600lb bags was 8.5 min. If you want the the total system to be at 70% from here, switch the pumps to empty, once you have the BIG screen in that profile on the tanks at the correct level, shut off the pump and save your profile. Your Max Wake setting is now at the correct level. i.e. 70%

The system will now calculate the time to fill to 70% for that particular profile. Keep in mind, with overflow bags it is not going to be 100% accurate as the system again, only monitors time, other factors such as filling in motion or via battery only etc. (Not recommended by me:D) will effect this. The same rules apply for filling and emptying regardless of year:

Fill sitting still at 1500 RPM, empty in motion at 1500 RPM or more! Your pumps will perform at optimum, last longer, impellers longer etc. I had 390 hrs on my last boat, never lost a pump or had to replace an impeller and they were going strong when I sold the boat!

Now when you go to the Ballast/Trim section, this screen gives you what is actually in the hard tanks (Floats), again, if you have bags, does not show what is left there... Only the hard tanks, if after you empty, go to this screen to see if your empty time is long enough and adjust accordingly.

For me with the 600lb bags, I have set the timers as follows:

Port Fill - 8:30...................Port Empty - 9:30
KGB Fill - 6:00.................KGB Empty - 6:30
Starboard Fill 8:30............Starboard Empty - 9:30

Hope this helps, system is flawless, works well.

P.S. I did have a screen lock up this weekend, turn of the battery switch, back on and the system re-boots. Don't hate on MC, this is just computer FM - Fing Magic - Never had a computer or smart phone lock up ever.........:rolleyes:

You said the profile use is based on "time only." Does this mean that you have to be at zero at the trim/ballast screen before filling. If you are at, say, 50% already (determined by your senders) will it still fill for the preset 70% time, or will it only fill for the difference, in this case, an additional 20%? When you say time only, it leads me to believe that whatever the senders are saying, it will still put 70% in, even if it means filling and sending water out the overflow.

Go through the profile set up again. You said it takes 8 1/2 minutes to fill your tanks, yet, you want it set to 70% for wakeboarding, and your timers are set at 8 1/2 minutes? So are the tanks full, or, only at 70%?

Once you set this profile, wont the senders just change your levels, ie) 70% is the hard tank full and the Sumo bag almost full, you turn the boat off, now you are showing 100%. The system will actually start dumping water once you engage a profile to bring it down to 70% based on your timers.

You say the system works flawlessly, so maybe just explain again in more detail so I can both understand AND get my boat working flawlessly too.

The explanation of the aftermarket bags not venting properly is feasible as well.

501
06-09-2013, 10:09 PM
I'm having all the same issues and everyone else. Pretty frustrating.

One questions is what is the benefit of running the boat to fill the ballast other than the pumps getting 14.4volts instead of 12 other than speed? How will 12volts burn out a 12 volt pump? Also does every manufacturer say you have to run the boat at 1500 to fill ballast? They all use the same pumps anyways.

My problem with this is over the life of the boat, you are going to put on a lot of hours just filling your ballast up. At an average of 20-25 min run time just for filling and emptying the ballast this can add up to ably over time. Often we like to just get to our spot while filling, stop the boat and then let the ballast finish. We usually drain while moving but running the boat specificly just to fill up the ballast seems a bit excessive.

I wouldn't call that "flawless"? IMO they should work from any screen at anytime.

MattsCraft
06-10-2013, 10:08 AM
You said the profile use is based on "time only." Does this mean that you have to be at zero at the trim/ballast screen before filling. If you are at, say, 50% already (determined by your senders) will it still fill for the preset 70% time, or will it only fill for the difference, in this case, an additional 20%? When you say time only, it leads me to believe that whatever the senders are saying, it will still put 70% in, even if it means filling and sending water out the overflow.

Go through the profile set up again. You said it takes 8 1/2 minutes to fill your tanks, yet, you want it set to 70% for wakeboarding, and your timers are set at 8 1/2 minutes? So are the tanks full, or, only at 70%?

Once you set this profile, wont the senders just change your levels, ie) 70% is the hard tank full and the Sumo bag almost full, you turn the boat off, now you are showing 100%. The system will actually start dumping water once you engage a profile to bring it down to 70% based on your timers.

You say the system works flawlessly, so maybe just explain again in more detail so I can both understand AND get my boat working flawlessly too.

The explanation of the aftermarket bags not venting properly is feasible as well.

I'm having all the same issues and everyone else. Pretty frustrating.

One questions is what is the benefit of running the boat to fill the ballast other than the pumps getting 14.4volts instead of 12 other than speed? How will 12volts burn out a 12 volt pump? Also does every manufacturer say you have to run the boat at 1500 to fill ballast? They all use the same pumps anyways.

My problem with this is over the life of the boat, you are going to put on a lot of hours just filling your ballast up. At an average of 20-25 min run time just for filling and emptying the ballast this can add up to ably over time. Often we like to just get to our spot while filling, stop the boat and then let the ballast finish. We usually drain while moving but running the boat specificly just to fill up the ballast seems a bit excessive.

I wouldn't call that "flawless"? IMO they should work from any screen at anytime.

Nick - Profiles are based on time only, not what is actually in the tanks - It cannot tell what is in the bags due to the tank fills to 100% and "overflows" into the bags. The tank level shown on the profile screen is based on the total calculation of the tank plus bag estimation based on the 100% fill time to achieve 100% - If you want 70% (which is a combined calculation, you first need to determine how much time it is to get to 100%, empty to 70% (again combined volume) and then save the profile. The next time you fill the system will calculate how much time it takes to fill to 70%, or 70% time from the 8.5 min 100% fill.

Since there is no way for the system to understand how much water is in the bags, this is the only way it can work. Quite frankly, you still will need to somewhat monitor visually what is in the bags as it cannot be 100% accurate. For me this is not a big deal, really better than what we had prior as the system is easy to set the timers and makes an attempt to understand what is in the bags, in the past you had nothing for overflow situations and were manually filling and checking your bags. Also, for the X25 anyway, for wakeboarding, any more ballast over about 50% in the bags is too much rear weight as the wake starts to curl over. For surfing, 100% in either rear is money. (combined) The 600lb sumos are perfect size and a great addition to on the X25. Lastly, this is not any official documentation from MC, just my experience and what I believe to be how the system works after messing with it.

501 - Totally your call, the pumps perform at optimum at 1500 RPM's, used to be in the manual, not sure if it still is. I have found that the time to fill and empty following the above rule actually is quicker to fill and empty especially with overflow bags. Also, we don't do a ton of messing around with a ton of settings/switching. No ballast riders up first, max wake riders second and surf last/end of day.

Nick911
06-11-2013, 01:08 AM
Dealer talked to MC today and advisedly to try the "going home" profile setting to empty. Apparently it sets the cruise and engine RPM to completely drain the tanks? It was on advice from MC. I won't be able to get on water for a few days can someone mess with this profile and see what it does?

MattsCraft
06-11-2013, 09:58 AM
The "Go Home" profile by default unless you changed it is set for 0 ballast in all tanks, no tabs and 30 MPH. However, if you have overflow bags and have not changed your empty time it will not fully drain your bags or tanks.

Stefan
06-12-2013, 10:33 AM
Reading through all this... and knowing I'm not going to buy a newer boat until these things are sorted out, and I mean knowing, not believing the dealer...

two different uneducated guesses


the tank senders have a problem, mechanical that is...not very likely

the software has a problem...
to be more specific, the algorithm calculating the amount in the tanks is done lousy, obviously no one would want to measure/calculate the amounts when the boat is moving to much (accelerate/deccelerate or even the engine running at all) that might explain why after a while the levels tend to jump...
I'd try measureing the amount the sender floaties go up/down and then do an average on that and see how it goes...

This one would be less costly to solve on the number boats that seem to be affected, but having experienced the power MC put's into sofware developement for already built/sold boats, I'd say hoping for the best, expecting...


One more thing: I seriously believe MC should get a bug tracking system that the dealers can work with, it's always easy to tell/phone/whatever a single owner "you're the first one with that, never heard of it before". These things should be written down somewhere until they're solved... I just darn hope this forum is not their bug tracking system!

MattsCraft
06-12-2013, 11:49 AM
The system works just fine. Easy to adjust the timers for overflow added bags. A 15 minute job to add the bags if you purchase the correct parts. MC has done a good job to make the system somewhat idiot proof. The floats/senders tell you exactly what is in the on-board hard tanks and timer adjustments allow you to fill your overflows to a relative accurate level.

I see these complaints as OE, I am not having any problems and as mentioned, go back to '09 and you had a major process to adjust the timers, no way of even calculating what was in your bags other then visual etc. I feel the PnP system was far worse and this system is about as good as it can get. You can set up and us the profiles, or you can override it completely and manual fill and empty.

Nick911
06-12-2013, 04:25 PM
The system works just fine. Easy to adjust the timers for overflow added bags. A 15 minute job to add the bags if you purchase the correct parts. MC has done a good job to make the system somewhat idiot proof. The floats/senders tell you exactly what is in the on-board hard tanks and timer adjustments allow you to fill your overflows to a relative accurate level.

I see these complaints as OE, I am not having any problems and as mentioned, go back to '09 and you had a major process to adjust the timers, no way of even calculating what was in your bags other then visual etc. I feel the PnP system was far worse and this system is about as good as it can get. You can set up and us the profiles, or you can override it completely and manual fill and empty.

Did you do anything special with your install to prevent the aftermarket bags from collapsing on themselves and restricting the venting when draining?

MattsCraft
06-12-2013, 05:23 PM
Did you do anything special with your install to prevent the aftermarket bags from collapsing on themselves and restricting the venting when draining?
Nope - Overflow goes into the front of the sumo bag - closest to the overflow, overflow is moved to the front top of the sumo bag. Bag fills and drains with no issue. Keep in mind, with this configuration, you will never get all the water out of the bag due to the angle of the boat and fill/drain potion of the bag.

onewheat
06-12-2013, 06:17 PM
OK boys, pretty sure this is how the system works. Note... This is not 100% substantiated by MC, however it all makes sense.

First - I have installed 2-600lb Sumo sacs in the rears - Perfect size for the X25 and just the right amount of extra for surfing with 2-8 peeps and 70% full for wakeboarding. A 10 min install.

The ballast tank fill and empty from the "Profile" is based on time only. Meaning, the system does not know how full the bags are, nor does it consider the actual tank levels. You need to find out how much time it takes to fill your bags to 100%, from there, like in my case if you want the total to be 70% follow this procedure.

Go to your profile i.e. Max Wake - I found to fill the rear tanks and 600lb bags was 8.5 min. If you want the the total system to be at 70% from here, switch the pumps to empty, once you have the BIG screen in that profile on the tanks at the correct level, shut off the pump and save your profile. Your Max Wake setting is now at the correct level. i.e. 70%

The system will now calculate the time to fill to 70% for that particular profile. Keep in mind, with overflow bags it is not going to be 100% accurate as the system again, only monitors time, other factors such as filling in motion or via battery only etc. (Not recommended by me:D) will effect this. The same rules apply for filling and emptying regardless of year:

Fill sitting still at 1500 RPM, empty in motion at 1500 RPM or more! Your pumps will perform at optimum, last longer, impellers longer etc. I had 390 hrs on my last boat, never lost a pump or had to replace an impeller and they were going strong when I sold the boat!

Now when you go to the Ballast/Trim section, this screen gives you what is actually in the hard tanks (Floats), again, if you have bags, does not show what is left there... Only the hard tanks, if after you empty, go to this screen to see if your empty time is long enough and adjust accordingly.

For me with the 600lb bags, I have set the timers as follows:

Port Fill - 8:30...................Port Empty - 9:30
KGB Fill - 6:00.................KGB Empty - 6:30
Starboard Fill 8:30............Starboard Empty - 9:30

Hope this helps, system is flawless, works well.

P.S. I did have a screen lock up this weekend, turn of the battery switch, back on and the system re-boots. Don't hate on MC, this is just computer FM - Fing Magic - Never had a computer or smart phone lock up ever.........:rolleyes:

I have had to do several battery cycles for the screen locking up - I do it on my HP all the time. As long as it's that easy to fix - Oh well...

Are you running any additional front ballast or only the Sumos in the rear?

Nick911
06-17-2013, 11:41 AM
OK, so finally got back on the water. I haven't mentally tabulated all this info yet but here it is:

Verified tanks were empty on launch. Get boat on water, 28% in Port, 43% in Starboard. Drain them both to zero.

Idle boat to 1500 rpm and hit fill all. Timers are almost perfect, center tank shooting out overflow at 94% (bit more timer adjustment required), rear tanks out overflow at 97% and 99%.

Hit "empty all" (my timers for empty are set for 30 seconds longer than fill time), drain all to zero (using 1500 RPM idle). Turn boat off and on again. Front tank now showing 0%, rear tanks 98% and 99%. I know the senders are float based as we sit there rolling in the waves I can actually watch the percentages change 1-2%.

Other things I've noted: when using profiles, the percentages will always be timer based and not sender based, so, when I go into Max Wake for example I'll always get the timer-based percentage and not the sender one. I verified this while the profile was activated and toggling between the ballast screen and the profile screen while turning the engine on and off. So while a profile is active it won't actually let you adjust anything based on those timers (using the ballast screen or the actual hard switches). I'll attach a video to show this.

My assumptions:

1) The system does in fact work, however, drain times are drastically longer than fill times with the FlyHigh system, likely due to decreased venting efficiency while draining.
2) Matt'sCraft system is working for him as he is only on his active profiles, so, all numbers being timer-based only means he wont be having the same issues as us, or at least appears to be working (Matt, could you verify this, maybe deactivate your profiles and tell us if the senders give you conflicting info)
3) Many of my initial problems are caused by having my drain timers set way to short, probably based on some faulty assumptions I made early on.

My next outing I'm going to add a couple minutes to drain times to verify. I'm also going to contact wakemakers and ask them about decreased venting efficiency (sucking out of a rigid container versus a collapsable one).

Summary: I think the system works as described by the guys with the 2010's. Aligning timers with senders would theoretically make the profile screen closer integrated while the profiles are or aren't active.

Nick911
06-17-2013, 11:55 AM
I can't seem to be able to upload the video, however, the video shows me in an active profile attempting draining the tanks to zero using "empty all." Once I get them to zero I turn the boat off and on again, and the tanks now show 20% and 28%. I hit "empty all" again and it immediately goes to zero. It won't even let me override with the manual switches (where it says "override 30 second" with a countdown or something like that).

Looking at this video again leads me to a second assumption, Matt's system does work as described because his timers are tight enough that they match the sensors or pretty close as he would still get the sender levels when he turns his boat off and on.

Is it reasonable to assume that drain times are just much longer than fill times and that the assumption that this was not the case is what's screwing us all up? Maybe the Sumo's vent easier than the FlyHigh's?

Nick911
06-17-2013, 09:44 PM
Spoke to wakemakers the drain time will be longer than the fill time. There really should not be any venting inefficiencies. So, unlikely that the bags are screwing me up.

The other issue I'm noting is the fact that I ran the pumps last time I loaded the boat and confirmed the bags were empty, however, got on the water and had 20 and 28% in the system. 20% in a 200lb hard tank is only about 40lbs of water or 18L (4.5 gallons). I wonder if this could just be draining down during the launch process or shifts from the bag into the hard tank during trailering, coupled with some inherent inaccuracies in a float sender system.

Just trying to talk myself through this. My plan for next outing is to add 3-4 minutes to rear drain times and see if that fixes the problem. I'm also going to have the dealer inspect the impellers during my break-in service as I would not want them to be damaged from running dry too much.

EA2010
06-18-2013, 03:45 PM
Senders and timers ... just to see how full/empty your tanks are on the screen. Wow, is this the direction we're heading? Is this really important for surfing or boarding?

I have all my after-market sacs connected to their own pump with its own switch. I hit fill and wait until water starts to spill from the overflows. If I want to, I can watch the sacs fill/drain in each locker; but I've come to trust the overflows while filling. If I want more ballast (which we all do) I connect my Tsunami pump and manually fill/drain additional sacs. Works awesome and is actually quicker than using the stock/aftermarket pumps. Stress free, as well.

The more I think about it, the more I believe the ballast tanks (stock or after-market) should be managed manually as opposed to using the screen. Seems to be the only logical solution. This is how we first started surfing (on a 2006 X-80) and we never had any frustrations with the ballast tanks.

It pains me to see people who "upgraded" to the 2013 screen (on the advice of their dealer) have to deal with the same issues with the software ...

EA2010
06-18-2013, 03:50 PM
... sometimes technology isn't always the solution!

onewheat
06-18-2013, 07:11 PM
Is it reasonable to assume that drain times are just much longer than fill times and that the assumption that this was not the case is what's screwing us all up? Maybe the Sumo's vent easier than the FlyHigh's?

Drain times would be longer. You don't have the advantage of gravity unless you are on the trailer. You are attempting to pump against water pressure, whereas filling you have the slight advantage of water pressing on the bottom of the hull, attempting to seek it's own level, until you get to the point where you are raising the head height of the water.

EA2010
06-18-2013, 07:30 PM
I have found that draining goes a lot faster when you nudge the boat into gear. The pull of water away from the hull seems to speed things up ...

Nick911
07-10-2013, 01:45 PM
Little update:
At 40 hours now and boat is flawless. Only two screen freeze ups. As for ballast, set drain times to about 2 minutes longer than fill times no issues.

Very happy with the 2013 System. Cruise and profiles are perfect. Gonna crush out another 80 hours yet before season is through.

Only issues now are some peeling to the grey matting on the sunpad walkway.

fz1dba
07-21-2013, 11:00 PM
Little update:
At 40 hours now and boat is flawless. Only two screen freeze ups. As for ballast, set drain times to about 2 minutes longer than fill times no issues.

Very happy with the 2013 System. Cruise and profiles are perfect. Gonna crush out another 80 hours yet before season is through.

Only issues now are some peeling to the grey matting on the sunpad walkway.

Just a FYI, I had my software updated a couple of weeks ago to a version dated 05312013 and I have not had a screen freeze up since.

pap
07-30-2013, 10:26 AM
I am having a frequent problem with ballast gauges going haywire.

Yesterday: we are riding and I fill all ballast tanks to 40%.

Stop for a bit to eat. Then start back up again and ballast gauges now read 100%.

Look at bags (over tanks) and they are empty.

So now I can't put any more water in (except manually at 30 sec intervals, which would take forever) so had to "empty all" which ran pumps much longer than needed and then refill.

Getting real irritated at the flakiness of the ballast system in brand new $100,000 boat. Starting to wonder if I should have bought a G23.

turbofresh
08-15-2013, 12:04 PM
having very similiar issues as pap. empty tanks after a good solid day of riding then on our way into the marina i notice my tanks are 50%. hit empty all and i can hear the pumps gurgling which tells me they are clearly empty. my first issue was screen locks then a firmware upgrade fixed that and now i got this issue. very annoying and frustrating.

Nick911
08-15-2013, 12:32 PM
having very similiar issues as pap. empty tanks after a good solid day of riding then on our way into the marina i notice my tanks are 50%. hit empty all and i can hear the pumps gurgling which tells me they are clearly empty. my first issue was screen locks then a firmware upgrade fixed that and now i got this issue. very annoying and frustrating.

Give me a call if you want re: the ballast issue I was able to figure mine out.

PM for contact info.

Eagle
08-25-2013, 09:38 PM
Is it ok to run the ballast pumps on empty while the boat is on the trailer or on the lift, or does the boat need to be in the water to not damage the pumps / impellers?

Nick911
08-25-2013, 10:43 PM
Is it ok to run the ballast pumps on empty while the boat is on the trailer or on the lift, or does the boat need to be in the water to not damage the pumps / impellers?

Unsure, but during my fall service I'm going to have them inspect/replace the impellers if there is any damage, especially considering the issues I've had. To that point, the other day my system was acting up, would show 50%, then 10%, then 50% again.

GoneBoatN
08-25-2013, 11:40 PM
Is it ok to run the ballast pumps on empty while the boat is on the trailer or on the lift, or does the boat need to be in the water to not damage the pumps / impellers?

It's not like the engine impeller where you will damage it in a relatively short period of time. The impeller in the ballast pumps are much more flexible and will not be damaged. I'm assuming you are not talking about running them some extended amount of time but rather checking to ensure the ballast tanks are empty, verifying that the pumps work, etc. If you think about it they run dry after your tank empties while on the water. It takes a short period of time for the ballast controls to determine the tank is empty (I believe the control unit senses the amperage draw change when the pump looses prime in the case of emptying the tanks).

Aric'sX15
08-25-2013, 11:53 PM
I am having a frequent problem with ballast gauges going haywire.

Yesterday: we are riding and I fill all ballast tanks to 40%.

Stop for a bit to eat. Then start back up again and ballast gauges now read 100%.

Look at bags (over tanks) and they are empty.

So now I can't put any more water in (except manually at 30 sec intervals, which would take forever) so had to "empty all" which ran pumps much longer than needed and then refill.

Getting real irritated at the flakiness of the ballast system in brand new $100,000 boat. Starting to wonder if I should have bought a G23.

fed up with all the g23 talk around here. took me 30 seconds to google that nautique has the exact same screen freeze ups on their screen systems. had 0 problems with my Big system on my old 15, dont really know why you need touch screens on a boat anyways

Nordicron
08-26-2013, 01:06 AM
fed up with all the g23 talk around here. took me 30 seconds to google that nautique has the exact same screen freeze ups on their screen systems. had 0 problems with my Big system on my old 15, dont really know why you need touch screens on a boat anyways

Fed up? Why? Because it is the most bad azz wake throwing machine made to date? Or because its one expensive sob? I took a demo set with 5 friends on Friday and was thoroughly impressed! Wake was so easy to hit yet booted you to the moon! At almost 9k of total weight between boat, ballast and people the thing locked in and turned as sharp as any 21' boat I've ever been in! All those rumors about handling like a tank are totally false. It felt great on the water. Only thing they need to work on is the price! Insane! But a similar equipped x-25 runs darn close to the price I got quoted so they are all insane!

turbofresh
08-26-2013, 11:41 AM
i think he meant fed up that some people think if they would have gotten into a g23 there screens woulda been flawless and perfect when in reality they have issues of there own aswell, just like the mc screens. he didnt mention anything about the wake, handling or price tag.

Nordicron
08-26-2013, 12:10 PM
Turbo that's true. I wouldn't want any of these boats with all the electronics! They are all gonna be owner nightmares and a great source of revenue for dealers when they start failing in the future. Even the G I was on had a ballast pump that wouldn't work, not sure if it was the link or wiring but to get the starboard to fill we had to unplug the center ballast wire and connect it to the starboard pump then tell the Link system to fill the front! Love the hull and layout but not to excited about all the electronics in the G either.

Aric'sX15
08-26-2013, 01:21 PM
thats my point. personally i think its the ugliest boat ever made, but the wake talks. none of these electronics are perfect! im tired of hearing about it on an MC forum. if i wanted to hear about it ill go over to PN or wakeworld

spencerwm
04-08-2014, 04:47 PM
Not to keep this drama at the top but I will for at least a day. I put this video up for the people referencing this post without actually reading it. Hopefully it helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5i8YWK0Gp2g

ChiefCraig
07-05-2014, 04:29 AM
I just bought a 2013 X55 at 17 hours... We now have 70 hours on the boat and it has the same phantom % reading as previously mentioned. Once the power is turned on, the center ballast tank will read anywhere from 30-60%... After emptying to 0% and recycling the power, same issue. I've also noticed that when this happens, the 30 sec ballast override for the center tank does not work. Has anyone with this issue tried to use the override instead of the touch screen?

fz1dba
07-08-2014, 10:02 PM
My 2013 X10 does this as well. But I can usually top it off with the overide.

It usually happens when I do a 'fill all'. I kinda figure it is a false reading that happens when we are under way, because when I try and top it off water comes out of the overflow almost immediately.

sdinga
07-23-2014, 03:16 PM
Mine does this too. I hit go home before anchoring to swim. Go back out and it shows some random %

markmcfarland
07-23-2014, 04:37 PM
Aren't the sending units similar to fuel tank senders. Can't they be adjusted if always giving false reading. I open hatch and look at bags to figure out level. Normally have to vent air out to know how full. I do understand your frustrations though.