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grimsweeper
05-26-2013, 10:41 PM
Purchased large tube for wounded warrior program we participate in, video shows being towed from tower, any opinions or experience?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zdHINC3Zduw

CantRepeat
05-26-2013, 10:43 PM
Yes you can tow a tube from the tower.

bikenskijerm
05-26-2013, 10:53 PM
Everything I've read says not to pull tubes from the tower. There are warnings on the tower discouraging it as well on my zft-2.

Traxx822
05-26-2013, 11:07 PM
I'll quote NDT owner "you won't break my tower. I wouldn't tow more than 3, assuming you installed it correctly"

I guess it depends on what tower you have and how well you put it in.

I'm pretty confident in mine as it was installed with incredible attention to durability. A cheaper tower with an average skilled install would not be recommended.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2

Shilohsho
05-26-2013, 11:14 PM
My local dealer doesn't like the idea of towing tubes from the tower. He did say that an 8 yr old probably won't hurt the tower.

ski/hunt
05-26-2013, 11:18 PM
Not that I would do it or am saying its right, but I've seen a 197 with stock MC tower tow up to six tubes at a time, all with teen age kids on them-----And he isn't just leisure towing---He tears up the lake with those tubes!!

grimsweeper
05-26-2013, 11:31 PM
Thanks all, ps197 with nd tower. this particular tube looks to have less drag, video shows being pulled by pwc.

scott023
05-26-2013, 11:46 PM
Dealers will tell you not to tow tubes from the tower.

BROUSSARD
05-27-2013, 12:00 AM
Dealers should tell you not to tow tubes period.

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 06:12 AM
Everything I've read says not to pull tubes from the tower. There are warnings on the tower discouraging it as well on my zft-2.

The sticker on my tower says nothing about NOT towing tubes.


This question comes up every now and then.

How can a tube put more stress on a tower then a wakeboarder cutting across a wake?

This is the factory MC tower warning label for an 06. If a tube isn't a recreational towable I don't know what is.

scott023
05-27-2013, 09:13 AM
The sticker on my tower says nothing about NOT towing tubes.


This question comes up every now and then.

How can a tube put more stress on a tower then a wakeboarder cutting across a wake?

This is the factory MC tower warning label for an 06. If a tube isn't a recreational towable I don't know what is.

The surface area alone makes the strain on the tower higher. I know our dealer, which is the highest volume dealer in the world, tells their customers not to tube from the tower. I was also told during the factory tour that you shouldn't as well, so I think it's a safe bet that they don't want you towing tubes from the tower.

I have also read that owing from the tower inceases the chances of the tube getting lift off, increasing the potential of serious injury when the rider is dumped from height. Pretty sure we've all seen the videos of this happening as well. All in all, not a good idea, IMO.

Traxx822
05-27-2013, 09:27 AM
I've towed 3 tubes with adults on them from my tower. As well as one guy on an overturned picnic table. I'm not worried at all.

But your boat is not my boat.

Red pill or Blue pill. That is the question.

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 09:40 AM
The surface area alone makes the strain on the tower higher. I know our dealer, which is the highest volume dealer in the world, tells their customers not to tube from the tower. I was also told during the factory tour that you shouldn't as well, so I think it's a safe bet that they don't want you towing tubes from the tower.

I have also read that owing from the tower inceases the chances of the tube getting lift off, increasing the potential of serious injury when the rider is dumped from height. Pretty sure we've all seen the videos of this happening as well. All in all, not a good idea, IMO.

Just because you sell boats doesn't make you a design engineer so he's not an authority about towers or towables.

The waring label clearly says what you can and cannot tow from the tower.

I hope towing from the tower gives you more lift because getting air is fun!!

The surface area really doesn't mean all that much. A wakeboard carving across the water has little surface area but creates a tremendous about of drag with very little edge in the water. How could a tube skimming across the water do that?

Traxx822
05-27-2013, 09:44 AM
Exactly, when I am toed out on the edge while wakeboarding I pull the boat over to its side. When I whip a tube I barely feel it when its on the side.

This tube from tower thing has always bothered me that people say don't do it. It just doesn't make sense to me why you couldn't.

Traxx822
05-27-2013, 09:47 AM
I'm going to buy a hanging scale this summer and attach the rope to it and see how much pressure is really being exerted. That will lay this to rest.

Or someone on here that already has one should do it.

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 09:54 AM
I'm going to buy a hanging scale this summer and attach the rope to it and see how much pressure is really being exerted. That will lay this to rest.

Or someone on here that already has one should do it.

I would be very careful with that. If it happen to break it could really hurt someone if it ended up hitting them.

Traxx822
05-27-2013, 09:59 AM
Thats a good point. I smashed out my back window in my truck once when a rope broke and came whipping back.

Maybe someone can recommend a strong one. I know TooTall has a break away on his rope for his Air Chair. He can set it to break away at certain amounts of pressure. Maybe something like that.

pap
05-27-2013, 10:56 AM
The user manual for my 2013 X30 specifically says it's ok to tow tubes from the tower.

I won't be doing it however, I see no reason to subject the tower and boat to that kind of leveraged force, just use the ski pylon.

JDC
05-27-2013, 11:13 AM
Is it the stress on the tower itself or the stress on the upper deck where the tower mounts that should be the concern?

I think I've seen photos on here where there were cracks in the deck around the mounting pads. This was on a tower with 4 points of attachment.
Maybe I saw the photos somewhere else.

scott023
05-27-2013, 02:08 PM
Just because you sell boats doesn't make you a design engineer so he's not an authority about towers or towables.

The waring label clearly says what you can and cannot tow from the tower.

I hope towing from the tower gives you more lift because getting air is fun!!

The surface area really doesn't mean all that much. A wakeboard carving across the water has little surface area but creates a tremendous about of drag with very little edge in the water. How could a tube skimming across the water do that?

Ok, how about I toured the Gere Marie factory too, and they said not to tow tubes from the tower. Think they might be an authority on tower usage? :D

Indyxc
05-27-2013, 03:01 PM
Certain types of tubes will definitely exert more force on the tower than a wakeboarder.

The amount of force a wakeboarder will exhibit during wakeboarding will essentially be equal to the maximum grip strength the person has. There are exceptions of course, given that when the line goes slack the sudden force of the rope being taken up will create essentially an impact force on the tower.

As far as tubes, will a small tube exert more force than a wakeboarder? Probably not. But a large tube, with multiple people, during times when the rope slack is taken up OR especially if the front of the tube were to become submerged and drag in the water, that force will definitely more than a wakeboarder, and could exceed the design forces of the tower.

The height of the tower definitely creates a very large moment at the base of the tower.

Ultimately it's your boat, do as you please. I would never tow a tube from the tower.

bjames
05-27-2013, 03:33 PM
I dont think you can compare the stresses of a wakeboard to the stresses of a tube. The tube jumps around randomly and sometimes digs in, where as a wakeboard eases into a carve.

Kimper
05-27-2013, 03:54 PM
It may have been more common with older style tubes, but they can potentially have the front end dig into the water and then have massive amounts of water force suddenly occur like a big scoop or water parachute. I rarely pull a tube... but when I do it is attached to the pylon.

Lumbergh
05-27-2013, 04:08 PM
I feel its a bad idea.

Have read you should not tow tubes from wake tower install instructions (from numerous manufacturers).

Your boat, your rules...

Traxx822
05-27-2013, 04:27 PM
These last few have made some good points. Especially about slack in the rope. With the right amount of weight you could do damage in a snag or slack.

I have noticed this risk while I pull anything I want from my tower. And I happen to not let things go beyond their limits. I have killed the fun on the tube because of a need to kill the throttle. My boats more important than their fun.

With that said. I feel all the warnings not to tube from your tower, are comparable to the warning to not do burnouts in your car or truck because you could lose control and crash. It means some people will take that risk to have some fun. But I've never crashed from a burnout. Nor has any tube(s) caused any damage.

I personally have the ski pylon removed from my boat. So its not an option.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 05:08 PM
Ok, how about I toured the Gere Marie factory too, and they said not to tow tubes from the tower. Think they might be an authority on tower usage? :D

You know you got to hell for lying right? :D:D

bjames
05-27-2013, 05:11 PM
The last time I pulled a tube, the tube ended up going right through my wake and washed all 3 riders off the tube. Thankfully I was going very slow and in a turn as I had my ballast full. We were doing S-turns and turning back over our wake. Thankfully no one was hurt, just caught off guard.

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 05:38 PM
OK, lets ask this question.

Who here has ever even seen a tower failure from towing a tube posted to the web. I'm not even asking if you personally know someone that has had a tower failure from towing a tube or that you have had a failure.

I'm asking if ANYONE has ever even read about an MC tower failure from towing a tube.

NO ONE!

The fact is, if it was a serious issue there would have been many failures and it would be common knowledge not to do it.

Hell, I'm being told it is unsafe by a guy that wakesurfs at night without a vest and calls me a fuddy duddy. How much bull crap is that?

LaRue
05-27-2013, 05:53 PM
My brother-in-law broke his tower by pulling a tube

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 06:05 PM
My brother-in-law broke his tower by pulling a tube

What boat and what tower? What part broke?

TeamAllen
05-27-2013, 06:23 PM
This is a few years ago and might have just been the build quality of the tower, but it sounds like he did tow tubes?
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/436497.html?1177592119

sp00ky
05-27-2013, 06:23 PM
Exactly, when I am toed out on the edge while wakeboarding I pull the boat over to its side. When I whip a tube I barely feel it when its on the side.

This tube from tower thing has always bothered me that people say don't do it. It just doesn't make sense to me why you couldn't.

My thoughts exactly.

Indyxc
05-27-2013, 06:36 PM
A tube won't apply a force laterally away from the center of the boat but a wakeboarder can. Hence a wakeboarder can tip the boat.

This can be proven mathematically fairly easily if we make some assumptions but then again it's everyone's boat like I said.

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 06:46 PM
This is a few years ago and might have just been the build quality of the tower, but it sounds like he did tow tubes?
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/436497.html?1177592119

I read the thread and see nothing from the OP that says he pulled a tube. However, I see all kinds of people speculating as to what caused it.

pap
05-27-2013, 07:09 PM
A tube won't apply a force laterally away from the center of the boat but a wakeboarder can. Hence a wakeboarder can tip the boat.

This can be proven mathematically fairly easily if we make some assumptions but then again it's everyone's boat like I said.

Sorry I call BS on this.

Tube rotating outward has rotational inertia, the acceleration felt by the rider is centripetal force which is paired with reactive centrifugal force which acts upon the tower.

If there was no lateral force on the tower, the tube would continue in a line per Newton's first law.

From a vector standpoint, the tube cannot exert a perpendicular pull to the axis of rotation, but that is not the point, the point is lateral (x/y) force on the tower, and such force is magnified directly by mass

And it's not just lateral force, even if you are just pulling in a direct forward direction, if you've ever slowed and then accelerated a large tube into a wave to catch air, there is a tremendous amount of energy being transferred to accelerate a mass with increasing resistance per the wave. We have a large bungy type rope to absorb some of the "yanking" that can happen. That kind of yanking (sudden deceleration/acceleration forces) are HUGE compared with pulling any kind of skier or wakeboarder.

None of this is to say that MC has not properly engineered the tower and attachment structure to absorb these forces, and again I note that my manual specifically says it's ok, but to argue that pulling a tube is the same or less force than a wakeboarder is to ignore physics.

Traxx822
05-27-2013, 07:14 PM
The question isn't whether or not there is more pressure laterally than centered behind the boat. The question was can you tow from your tower and anyone have any experience.

My answer: Yes you can. I do it all the time. I have never seen a MC tower break from tubing. If anyone can prove me wrong I would like to see it.

Sent from my HTC VLE_U using Tapatalk 2

ricford
05-27-2013, 07:43 PM
I have a 190 and pulling from the tower causes it to cavitate when the tube whips out to the side. Only when I have 2 or three people back there.

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 07:51 PM
Sorry I call BS on this.

Tube rotating outward has rotational inertia, the acceleration felt by the rider is centripetal force which is paired with reactive centrifugal force which acts upon the tower.

If there was no lateral force on the tower, the tube would continue in a line per Newton's first law.

From a vector standpoint, the tube cannot exert a perpendicular pull to the axis of rotation, but that is not the point, the point is lateral (x/y) force on the tower, and such force is magnified directly by mass

And it's not just lateral force, even if you are just pulling in a direct forward direction, if you've ever slowed and then accelerated a large tube into a wave to catch air, there is a tremendous amount of energy being transferred to accelerate a mass with increasing resistance per the wave. We have a large bungy type rope to absorb some of the "yanking" that can happen. That kind of yanking (sudden deceleration/acceleration forces) are HUGE compared with pulling any kind of skier or wakeboarder.

None of this is to say that MC has not properly engineered the tower and attachment structure to absorb these forces, and again I note that my manual specifically says it's ok, but to argue that pulling a tube is the same or less force than a wakeboarder is to ignore physics.

I call BS on your BS.

You had better post up some math to support your theories else it's all hogwash!!

It doesn't continue on it's path because there is an outside force effecting it... IE the boat moving forward!!

rodltg2
05-27-2013, 08:02 PM
Tubing ? If you plan on tubing alot , I recommend the Toobstar. The tower/
and boat was made to withstand the pressure. It's a custom order , your dealer can tell you more. Also there are some threads here.

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 08:05 PM
Tubing ? If you plan on tubing alot , I recommend the Toobstar. The tower/
and boat was made to withstand the pressure. It's a custom order , your dealer can tell you more. Also there are some threads here.

I heard it comes with a mac book air or a HAL 9000 computer system?

LaRue
05-27-2013, 08:18 PM
What boat and what tower? What part broke?

MB Sports, not sure of tower brand but I believe it to be factory tower. He pulled front right leg from boat when tube went under water

pap
05-27-2013, 08:30 PM
I call BS on your BS.

You had better post up some math to support your theories else it's all hogwash!!

It doesn't continue on it's path because there is an outside force effecting it... IE the boat moving forward!!

Ummmm, and how does the boat's force get transmitted magically to the tube?

(hint, through the tower). And what happens to each and every force?

This is HS level physics. Review Newton to start.

CantRepeat
05-27-2013, 08:33 PM
MB Sports, not sure of tower brand but I believe it to be factory tower. He pulled front right leg from boat when tube went under water

So the mounting point on the boat failed and not the tower?

LaRue
05-27-2013, 08:56 PM
Correct.

Indyxc
05-27-2013, 09:32 PM
Sorry I call BS on this.

Tube rotating outward has rotational inertia, the acceleration felt by the rider is centripetal force which is paired with reactive centrifugal force which acts upon the tower.

If there was no lateral force on the tower, the tube would continue in a line per Newton's first law.

From a vector standpoint, the tube cannot exert a perpendicular pull to the axis of rotation, but that is not the point, the point is lateral (x/y) force on the tower, and such force is magnified directly by mass

And it's not just lateral force, even if you are just pulling in a direct forward direction, if you've ever slowed and then accelerated a large tube into a wave to catch air, there is a tremendous amount of energy being transferred to accelerate a mass with increasing resistance per the wave. We have a large bungy type rope to absorb some of the "yanking" that can happen. That kind of yanking (sudden deceleration/acceleration forces) are HUGE compared with pulling any kind of skier or wakeboarder.

None of this is to say that MC has not properly engineered the tower and attachment structure to absorb these forces, and again I note that my manual specifically says it's ok, but to argue that pulling a tube is the same or less force than a wakeboarder is to ignore physics.

After reading your point, I agree with your point. When a boat is making a consistent turn the tube will essentially be directly inline with the boat, and the force on the tower will be straight back.

When the boat eases out of the turn, the tube will continue alone it's arc from it's intertia rotating around the center of the tow point, and then begin to apply a lateral force on the tower. I did not account for that.

I don't pull a lot of tubes. I guess my point of the lateral force is a wakeboarder can apply a lateral force that is created from the angle of the board, where the tube can not. I forgot to see the tube can create a lateral force from the moment rotating around the axis it has from the boat.

I still stand by my original point. The danger of a tube vs a wakeboarder, is the wakeboarder is essentially limited by grip strength wheres as the tube can create massive forces, which are only limited by the breaking strength of the rope or the other weakest tensile connections.

ski/hunt
05-27-2013, 09:37 PM
Well I'm no expert but-----to protect those I'm talking about I won't use names--
It was a BIG holiday weekend on the "jewel of Tennessee" (Norris) when I observed the big and bad NEW x-star on the lake. The person who brought it there was known to many as "one of" the "big wigs" of mastercraft-----And you won't believe what they were doing with the X-star that nobody even had at a dealership yet??!? Not wake boarding as I figured I'd see the "new star" in action.... No-- that bright yellow X-Star was towing a tube!!! And if memory serves me right there were Two tubes---if I'm wrong it was certainly two people on one tube...
Now prepare yourselves for this part!!! The rope was attached to the "Power TOWER"!!!!!!

My point you ask....???? If one of the guys who runs the show at MASTERCRAFT can tow a tube from a tower----I sure as heck can!!!!
(I just don't own a tower clad boat-----I own a SKI boat)

boogie420
05-27-2013, 10:15 PM
^^^^but it might be a bigger deal to you if your tower breaks then it is to a "bigwig" at mastercraft.to him it might be no big deal.........ive only been doing watersports a few years so I'm no expert but why would you want to tow the tube from the tower, more air?

tdjaster
05-27-2013, 10:24 PM
Dealers should tell you not to tow tubes period.

Preach!

grimsweeper
05-27-2013, 10:30 PM
This tube (Radar galaxy) doesn't look susceptible to submarine-ing,know from experience that puts enough stress to rip cover off tube. It was attached to transom, adult stood up in front of tube. Thanks for input, I think I will try it-carefully.

scott023
05-27-2013, 11:53 PM
You know you got to hell for lying right? :D:D

Agreed, but I actually did tour their factory in 2010. They hooked me up with a bunch of tickets for a Bears game for my buddies and I while we were there too. Jim Schultz himself toured us around.

Thrall
05-28-2013, 02:29 AM
The issue isn't stress from towing people on tubes. Any ND or newer MC tower is plenty strong enough.
The problem arises if the tube tanks under water and turns into a parachute. I've seen someone snap a heavy tube rope when this happens.
As long as you're watching what you're doing its ok

willyt
05-28-2013, 09:11 AM
... "jewel of Tennessee" (Norris)...

first, Norris is not the jewel of tennessee, that lake sucks. rocky shores and lots of snakes, rough water everywhere. Water is so dirty you can get an STD just from peeing in it.

"one of" the "big wigs" of mastercraft...

I probably know who that is and i find that funny.

look if you tow a tube from the tower, we'll probably come up along side of you, laugh, point and take pictures, can't believe we're even debating this right now.

LaRue
05-28-2013, 10:34 AM
I have a tow pylon. I am going to use it to tow. No worries!

Specter
05-28-2013, 10:48 AM
I haven't pulled a tube with my MC (yet) but in the event I do, I have one of these: http://www.marinesupplydock.com/AIRHEAD-Watersports-Tow-Harness-Self-Centering-14FT-Cable-AIR-AHTH-9.htm

Oddly enough, I've used it to tow other boats in that were broken down.

For what it's worth, and probably not much since people are slinging hatorade at dealers, my dealer encourages you to pull from the transom tow point.

madcityskier
05-28-2013, 11:07 AM
I haven't pulled a tube with my MC (yet) but in the event I do, I have one of these: http://www.marinesupplydock.com/AIRHEAD-Watersports-Tow-Harness-Self-Centering-14FT-Cable-AIR-AHTH-9.htm

Oddly enough, I've used it to tow other boats in that were broken down.

For what it's worth, and probably not much since people are slinging hatorade at dealers, my dealer encourages you to pull from the transom tow point.

Not to be a kill-joy, but that's the last thing I'd do. Lift rings are designed for pulling up, not back. They aren't reinforced for the direction you want to apply a load to them. I'd stick to the tower or pylon, whichever one won't put me on someone's bad side.

ski/hunt
05-28-2013, 11:09 AM
[QUOTE=willyt;940018]first, Norris is not the jewel of tennessee, that lake sucks. rocky shores and lots of snakes, rough water everywhere. Water is so dirty you can get an STD just from peeing in it.




Hence the reason I put that statement in quotes....
I hear people describe it that way often and wonder if they been to any other lakes in Tennessee---Plenty of others that are much better--I just don't tell anybody about them. I'd rather they go to Norris and hang with all the "Ohians"----;)

bjames
05-28-2013, 11:13 AM
^^^^but it might be a bigger deal to you if your tower breaks then it is to a "bigwig" at mastercraft.to him it might be no big deal.........ive only been doing watersports a few years so I'm no expert but why would you want to tow the tube from the tower, more air?

Its possible too that as a representitive from MC, they may also be purposely loading the tower to its limits to test its performance. Or like Boogie420 said, they dont care so much if they damage their demo boat as it gives them an opertunity to investigate the failure and improve the design - all part of R & D.

Specter
05-28-2013, 01:15 PM
Not to be a kill-joy, but that's the last thing I'd do. Lift rings are designed for pulling up, not back. They aren't reinforced for the direction you want to apply a load to them. I'd stick to the tower or pylon, whichever one won't put me on someone's bad side.

You're not a killjoy at all, I appreciate the feedback. I didn't realize the lift rings weren't reinforced for pulling back.

I totally forgot about my ski pylon which is what I'll use in the event I ever pull a tube.

madcityskier
05-28-2013, 06:13 PM
You're not a killjoy at all, I appreciate the feedback. I didn't realize the lift rings weren't reinforced for pulling back.

I totally forgot about my ski pylon which is what I'll use in the event I ever pull a tube.

Tell that to my wife and daughter.