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Wouter
04-15-2013, 06:09 AM
Hello,

So the season finally started over here and i thought it would be a good idea to change the transmission fluid before putting my 1990 prostar 190 back in the water since i had never done this after buying the boat 7 years ago (yes, yes I know) and I've experienced "dirty neutral" on this translmission in the past.

I got all (i think) the old fluid out ( it was a bit brown and thicker than the new fluid) and put in 1,8 l (1.9 quarts) of (castrol dex 3 transmax multi vehicle ATF) dexron iii mineral transmission fluid in.

First everything ran fine for a moment then suddenly (at slalom speed) the tranny slipped and then impossible to get the boat back into gear ( only reverse is working.) got towed back to the dock, and played with the fluid level. Checked the level again when hot and noticed some bubbles on the dipstick. The level seemed ok but hard to read (smudges on dipstick)

A bit less fluid gave better result and forward would sometimes engage but sometimes slip again.

Did I uses the wrong fluid?

Can to much or to little fluid cause such complete failure?

Am I in in for a transmission rebuild? How can I be sure? (would prefer to not pull the tranny unless really necessary)

If so what parts and gaskets would i need ( the transmission is a 1/1 velvet drive, the engine is a indmar 351 w) or is there some kind of transmission rebuild kit that one could buy?

If I have the tranny rebuild or do it myself, should the damper plate also be changed?

How difficult is this job (i ve changed about everything except the block on this engine but know virtually nothing about transmissions)

thancks in advance for your wisdom.

CantRepeat
04-15-2013, 06:37 AM
From the manual:


Dexron II, Type F, and other hydraulic transmission fluids which meet Derron Allison Type C3 specifications are recommended for use in all Velvet Drive marine transmission.


So your fine with your choice of fluid.

Too little fluid is far worse then too much. With too much you will just get some blow by on the trans vent cap. It's that little floating cap on top of a tube on the back part of the trans. It's near the coupler.

The transmission are pretty easy to rebuild, I would bte you could do it yourself. You seem to have basic automotive skill sets, IE you did a lot of work on the motor already.

There a few threads about doing the rebuild yourself here and here is a link to the manuals.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=32581


Too little will make it slip for sure.

What has probably happened is the older fluid with all the clutch particles in it gave enough friction to make the forward clutches work. Since reverse sees far less use the are not worn down at the same rate as forward clutches. Hence the reverse still working.

You can try adding some more fluid and then running the forward gears with out giving it any gas. The idea is to let the pump run fluid through the clutches and see if they will start to grab. Do not rev the motor up while it is slipping, all you'll be doing is glazing the clutch pack.

Here is a thread with lots of info and even rebuild parts house recommendations.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=52547


In the end, I believe you are in for a rebuild and it's pretty easy. I and other users here who had no previous experience in automatic transmissions have done the rebuild.

TIP: Soak your new clutch plates overnight in trans fluid.

In a boat that old I would change out the damper plate while I have the trans out.

Wouter
04-15-2013, 08:49 AM
Thanks for the quick reply and manual. I guess I just wish there was a fireproof way to check if a rebuild is necessary or if it's just a problem with the amount of fluid... I seem to remember you can check the fluid pressure somehow, is that right?

Table Rocker
04-15-2013, 09:20 AM
I would change the fluid again. You don't really get all of it out when you suck it dry, there is still fluid in the cooler, cooler hoses and internal pump.

Did the fluid that came out look and smell like ATF? Just because you put the correct fluid in, doesn't mean the correct fluid came out. You might have a mix of two fluids.

Wouter
04-15-2013, 09:40 AM
Nope, the fluid that came out was brownish and much thicker than what I put in and , to be honest, didn't look like ATF to me, but then again, the tranny was working before the fluid change...

CantRepeat
04-15-2013, 09:41 AM
A pressure test is pretty simple to perform provide you have the right gauge.

Locate the 3/8 plug on the back of the trans, connect your pressure gauge there.

Follow the instructions in the second SS and check your pressure against the chart.

Even if you have the correct pressure it does not guarantee the clutch pack is good.

CantRepeat
04-15-2013, 09:43 AM
Nope, the fluid that came out was brownish and much thicker than what I put in and , to be honest, didn't look like ATF to me, but then again, the tranny was working before the fluid change...

It is possible to run these transmission on motor oil, but the manual says to only do so if the motor does not exceed 3000 rpm. I have only heard about this being done when the Velvet drive is connected to a diesel and have never seen oil used in this trans in a Mastercraft with a gas engine.

edit

My 92 had not been change in a while when I first bought it. The fluid was very brownish when I changed it.

/edit

Wouter
04-15-2013, 10:01 AM
Thanks for that. I suppose that pressure test would at least indicate if fluid level is correct, right?

CantRepeat
04-15-2013, 10:12 AM
Thanks for that. I suppose that pressure test would at least indicate if fluid level is correct, right?

Not necessarily. You can have full fluid and have a bad pump which would show no pressure on the gauge.

How are you checking the fluid level?

Wouter
04-15-2013, 10:38 AM
Just with the dipstick after running for more or less 15 minutes, but the dipstick is always a bit smudged and what I read as "filled" also contains air bubbles...
Anyway, would a transmission fail completely (ie not fall in gear) from overfilling it or having a mixture of different fluids? (The fluid that came out was definitely different and I can't really tell if I managed to extract ALL the old fluid)

Wouter
04-15-2013, 10:40 AM
BTW: thank you for taking the time!

CantRepeat
04-15-2013, 11:08 AM
Just with the dipstick after running for more or less 15 minutes, but the dipstick is always a bit smudged and what I read as "filled" also contains air bubbles...
Anyway, would a transmission fail completely (ie not fall in gear) from overfilling it or having a mixture of different fluids? (The fluid that came out was definitely different and I can't really tell if I managed to extract ALL the old fluid)

It is unlikely that the trans failed from overfilling. If you have bubbles on the stick where the fill line is I would add a bit more. Again, if you overfill the trans it should just blow fluid out of the breather cap. Have you check to make sure the breather cap is not stuck or crushed which might prevent fluid or air from escaping?

If someone has run motor oil in the trans and you changed to traditional trans fluid I would not think this would make the trans fail either. However, I'm just a rocket surgeon.

One thing I would also check is the adjustment on the cable at the transmission. IE, disconnect the cable and manually move the lever into forward position to make sure it is going all the way into forward.

It wont hurt to change the fluid a second time either.

Wouter
04-15-2013, 11:21 AM
Nope haven't checked the breather (didn't know there was one untill you mentioned it) The boat is at the ski club so I won't do any work to it before the end of the week. I guess I'll try:
a/ drain it again
b/ fill it again
c/ measure fluid and pressure
d/ if all is right but still no gear: start taking it out and order parts or bring it to a transmission shop)?
e/ hopefully ski very soon

Wouter
04-15-2013, 11:23 AM
between c and d check the linkage and lever...

Wouter
04-15-2013, 11:25 AM
Also, will opeing the drain plug, drain it completely?

JDC
04-15-2013, 05:48 PM
Can overfilling these transmissions cause aeration of the fluid? I know it can happen in a car or truck trans, just not sure about these boat transmissions.

Wouter
04-16-2013, 05:09 AM
Would never have imagined transmissions are this sensitive: If it ain't broke...

Kyle
04-16-2013, 01:16 PM
Would never have imagined transmissions are this sensitive: If it ain't broke...

They are pretty much bullet proof.

Looks like Tim has sent you down a good path of testing before removing.


The tranny rebuild install is very easy. The hardest part is picking it up. The rest is just nuts and bolts. Very simple. Dont panic, the rebuild kit is not too expensive and it is not brain surgery.

If you can do say heads, cam, intake, kind of work then you can do the rebuild.

Wouter
04-17-2013, 06:11 AM
Thanks for the confidence builder Kyle. I'll try to flush the tranny and check linkage etc. over the weekend. If that doesn't work, I was looking around and found a kit at ebasic for 160$:
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=eBasicPower&Product_Code=ALT23901
Would that include everything I need?
Reason I ask, is I usually go the skidim route but they are way more expensive and am worried I am missing something here (that would justify the price difference.) + since I live in Europe I would hate to have to wait on a second delivery because I left out some parts... thanks in advance for your advice.

etduc
04-17-2013, 09:06 AM
Due to your location, you might consider also ordering: snap-ring kit, and damper plate. Due to the age of your boat, just consider it time for a rebuild. Damper plate should be changed.

Wouter
04-17-2013, 09:22 AM
Yes, I was thinking as much but also wondering if there is a cheaper (than the dim) version that fits?
would this fit: http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/p/ALTDA-106A

etduc
04-17-2013, 10:13 AM
Yes, I was thinking as much but also wondering if there is a cheaper (than the dim) version that fits?
would this fit: http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/p/ALTDA-106A
Yep, ebasicpower is cheaper.

Wouter
04-17-2013, 10:20 AM
I read this:
Alto DA106A Flywheel Drive Plates are the attaching and cushioning mechanisms between your inboard engines flywheel and the transmission. BJMDA106A Drive Plate is a 3-legged Drive Plate for the smaller 12-3/4" Flywheels. Use on 5.0 Liter and 5.7-Liter engines with 2-bbl carburetors up to 225-HP). Fits the standard 26 spline transmission. Replaces Borg Warner OEM #120-8-1446 And AS8-K2C. (also use on LM318/360 Chrysler Inboards).

225 hp seems too little... I know there's a thread about this, but did anyone have issues with this plate?

LittleFuss
04-17-2013, 11:18 AM
Changing tranny fluid last year caused me some problems of slipping and overheating. I had merky fluid and the root cause seemed to be moisture, but when I changed the fluid it knocked crud loose that had accumulated I ended up changing the fluid and running it couple times before it all cleared out.

Kyle
04-17-2013, 12:20 PM
More than likely you removed all of the clutch material like Tim said earlier. When I would wrench for a living and a car came in for the tranny service at 150k and it had NEVER been serviced, I warned them about the huge chance of it not working properly after the filter and fluid change. Sometimes they worked and I never saw them back......Sometimes they were back very soon on a flat bed.


I would get the entire master rebuild kit from Ebasicpower, there is a brass washer that I would replace, Snap Ring kit, damper plate and maybe the front pump.

The pump is like $250-300 but worth the security of not having to re pull the tranny to put one in. Your issue is not a pump issue but you may consider putting a new pump in.


Ebasicpower will have everything and they even allow you to buy parts individually. There is a fat snap ring that you will want to replace. There is a real good chance that you will ruin the one in there trying to get it out. It is tight and has a ton of pressure, generally it looses all of the holding power when you stretch it to get it off of the shaft.

Wouter
04-18-2013, 04:41 AM
Ok,
My local tranny shop charges 1200 euros (about the price of a new tranny) to do the rebuild so I went ahead and ordered the kit and damper plate from ebasic and am planning to do the job myself :
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merch..._Code=ALT23901
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/p/ALTDA-106A
The parts should get here on tuesday. Am a bit nervous about this project, so any advice would be appreciated. i.e. Special tools I would need? Steps that need particular attention? I know to mark the original position and rotation direction of pump, have a wood block availabale to support the engine... How do I go about alignment? If someone can explain this business of leaving the bolts loose and fastening them after the tranny is in? What should I do to the oil cooler?

CantRepeat
04-18-2013, 11:21 AM
Ok,
My local tranny shop charges 1200 euros (about the price of a new tranny) to do the rebuild so I went ahead and ordered the kit and damper plate from ebasic and am planning to do the job myself :
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merch..._Code=ALT23901
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/p/ALTDA-106A
The parts should get here on tuesday. Am a bit nervous about this project, so any advice would be appreciated. i.e. Special tools I would need? Steps that need particular attention? I know to mark the original position and rotation direction of pump, have a wood block availabale to support the engine... How do I go about alignment? If someone can explain this business of leaving the bolts loose and fastening them after the tranny is in? What should I do to the oil cooler?

I made a couple of tools. One is more or less just a stand and the other was for pressing on a bearing.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=41338&highlight=tool

Check the clearance on the clutch pack using dry disc BUT THEN do the next line.

Soak your new clutch friction disc in transmission fluid overnight or a few days if you have the time. Do NOT assemble them dry.

Read the manual from cover to cover first.

Take photos as you disassemble the trans, you can use them if forget something while assembling.

Make a note of the pumps orientation before you remove it. There should be a couple of little arrows that line up on the front of it.

Blow the lines out with brake cleaner and compressed air while you have them out of the boat.

swardco
04-18-2013, 12:09 PM
Ok, this is a great thread. Now I am terrified to change the transmission fluid in my '91 P190. I have had the boat for 2 years, haven't yet changed the tranny fluid. Not sure what PO did when he had the boat.

So here is the question for the experts:

Option #1: Just check the level, make sure it is okay and don't do anything else for this season? Change at the end of the season and then deal with issues that arise in the off season.

Option #2: Change the fluid now, cross my fingers and hope?

What would you do?

CantRepeat
04-18-2013, 04:23 PM
Ok, this is a great thread. Now I am terrified to change the transmission fluid in my '91 P190. I have had the boat for 2 years, haven't yet changed the tranny fluid. Not sure what PO did when he had the boat.

So here is the question for the experts:

Option #1: Just check the level, make sure it is okay and don't do anything else for this season? Change at the end of the season and then deal with issues that arise in the off season.

Option #2: Change the fluid now, cross my fingers and hope?

What would you do?

What color is the fluid and what does it smell like?

Dark brown and smelling burnt is bad. Cherry red and smells kind of sweet is good.

If the trans is working fine and the color is good it wont hurt to wait until the end of the ski season and probably wont hurt to change it. If it's dark brown and burnt smelling then you could end up like the OP. However, it is possible to change it when it's dark brown and not have issues.

One my 92 it start to slip one year and I change the fluid and it was fine. In fact, it was fine for a few more years and the only reason I did the rebuild is because I had bought the kit.

You could change the fluid and have no issues at all.

Wouter
04-19-2013, 04:35 AM
Thanks for the tool info:
So I see your first tool is a 5" (12.7cm) diameter by 2-5/8" (6.7cm) tube with a kind of base plate that acts like a stand to hold things in place, right?
What would be the dimensions/diameter on the second (I guess more critical tool) to press the bearing?

Wouter
04-19-2013, 04:56 AM
Looks like pressing the clutch pack and placing snap rings are the most tricky parts. Guess the second tool has same diameter as the bearing, but what would that be?

CantRepeat
04-19-2013, 04:58 AM
Thanks for the tool info:
So I see your first tool is a 5" (12.7cm) diameter by 2-5/8" (6.7cm) tube with a kind of base plate that acts like a stand to hold things in place, right?
What would be the dimensions/diameter on the second (I guess more critical tool) to press the bearing?


The 5 inch part of the first tool is not the base, its the top which the pinion cage and output shaft site on while pressing on the rear bearing.

The idea of the second tool is that you place equal pressure on the inner and outer ring of the rear main bearing. So I think the pipe was 1 1/4 inch OD and the arms are just long enough to reach the outer bearing ring.

Wouter
04-21-2013, 05:50 PM
So i pulled the transmission this weekend and am taking it apart. I am taking pictures as i'm going and will organise them in this thread later. As far as i got, the hardest thing has been to pull the snap rings ( 87 and 88 in the manual exploded view) at the bearing but am a little stuck. I can't seem to back up the driver gear out of the ring gear... Does snap ring 89 have to be removed a this point?

Wouter
04-21-2013, 05:53 PM
This is snap ring 87

Wouter
04-21-2013, 06:02 PM
And this is 88. As you can see from the first picture, there is a bunch of debris ( not metallic ) in the tranny.

Wouter
04-22-2013, 04:05 AM
Just so it's clear what i am talking about

CantRepeat
04-22-2013, 07:27 AM
I don't think you need to remove the drive gear to replace the clutch pack. It has been a few years since I rebuilt mine. Is there a specific reason your are trying to separate them?

Kyle
04-22-2013, 07:45 AM
If you remove snap ring 89 then the clutch spring assembly should come out. Then you can replace the sealing rings and the clutches and friction plates.

The sealing rings or something may be in a bind.

Encourage it with a rubber hammer. After getting the clutch spring assembly out the drive gear should fall out of the ring gear. Then you can replace all of the bushings etc.

Wouter
04-22-2013, 08:38 AM
Thanks guys: so I'll remove snap ring (89) which will then allow to slide the forward clutch cylinder (84) washer (85) and bearing (86) over the drive gear and then get to the clutch plates, correct?
I mean; will everything from 79 to 85 slide over the drive gear towards the front before drive gear and ring gear separate? Quite concerned about all the debris in the tranny: first picture shows ome big chunks that came out and there seems to be quite a bit left in the case...

Kyle
04-22-2013, 08:46 AM
I'm reading a detailed shop manual. Sit tight. I'm refreshing my memory.

Bearing is pressed on and there is a snap ring between the drive gear and ring gear. So it may have to come apart to get all snap rings replaced.

Wouter
04-22-2013, 08:53 AM
cool. thanks for taking the time.

CantRepeat
04-22-2013, 09:03 AM
Are any of those large chunks in the first photo metal or is it all soft clutch fiber material?

Kyle
04-22-2013, 09:14 AM
Tim

If I'm reading this correctly he has to remove the bearing to even get the clutch spring assembly out and to even get to the forward clutch pack. I've slept spence I rebuilt mine.

In doing so the ring gear should be free from the drive gear.


I also know that the clutch spring has a rubber o ring around it that is thick and is a very tight fit.

Wouter
04-22-2013, 09:25 AM
It's all soft stuff, not metal.

Kyle
04-22-2013, 10:11 AM
84 and 86 are pressed on items.

I can't remember or not if I removed 86 the bearing but I remember removing 84.

I can't tell you how I got everything apart to save my life. I do remember very much encouraging it free. Do NOT mess up the splines on the drive gear assembly. That hooks the damper plate to the tranny.

I remember wood blocks and a hammer though. If you have a big pair of channel locks or a big pipe wrench then I would try and work 84 the clutch spring and piston out of the ring gear.


These poor shop manual drawings suck. Take a better pic of the ring gear for me. The 86 bearing may bottom out in 84 but I can't remember if I got 84 to slide over the bearing and left the bearing on the drive gear assembly and slit it out the back of the ring gear.


If you take the ring gear and a block of wood, can you slightly encourage by a downward force or a hammer the bottom of the drive gear assembly pressing the entire drive gear assembly out the front.

I think the only thing holding you up is the 2 pressed on pieces. 84 has to come out. If you can bring the entire drive gear out of the front and then encourage 84 free from the bearing.

Maybe using the wood and hammer (don't tear anything up but you have to swing) press the drive gear out of the 84 and 86.

Both have to be removed to do the job.




Note: control your beating on the splined section. Don't mess it up. I do remember having to really encourage at the part you are at.

CantRepeat
04-22-2013, 10:24 AM
You're probably correct, Kyle.

I think I used the assembly instructions in reverse to see what needed to come out first. My manual had a better item by item assembly list(photos) then it did a disassemble. Likewise, having the trans in front of you makes it a ton easier to see what needs to come off first.

I need to find a junk tranny to put out in the shop at some point.

Kyle
04-22-2013, 11:07 AM
You're probably correct, Kyle.

I think I used the assembly instructions in reverse to see what needed to come out first. My manual had a better item by item assembly list(photos) then it did a disassemble. Likewise, having the trans in front of you makes it a ton easier to see what needs to come off first.

I need to find a junk tranny to put out in the shop at some point.

I'm having to read mine in reverse as well. I just can't remember if I removed 86 bearing or not.

Wouter
04-22-2013, 11:19 AM
this is a link to a velvet drive rebuild:
http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?10280-How-to-rebuild-a-velvet-drive-10-17-004-1-1

Looks like the drive gear and ring gear should separate with only hand pressure at the point where I am: but when I try to push the drive gear through it is getting stuck on something... mving a bit but not all the way through...

Kyle
04-22-2013, 11:42 AM
Rubber hammer and hit the drive gear making it come out the back of the ring gear.

Your tranny has something wrong with it. A sealing ring my be cracked or something messed up. Just because its supposed to doesnt mean it will.

You have new snap rings, new clutch kit, new o rings. Swing away baby. The only thing you will tear up is something you are replacing.

84 is pressed in. It's not zip zip loosey goosey.

That guys pic is how I did mine. 84 and 86 stayed together. I'm 100% on that now.

I had to beat on my tranny to get it apart.


Think about this for a second. The supra guy says finger tight. Ok picture that bearing being finger tight on that drive gear. The gear would spin and the bearing would not seat on the shaft.

84 and 86 are pressed on. My shop manual clearly shows a press tool to install it.

So I would hit the damper plate end of the drive gear and encourage it out of the ring gear. The clutches all line up together so one holding you up is probably not the case. Make sure the gear is lined up and make it come out.

84 probably won't fall out either. My book shows a special tool pressing it in as well.



I didnt use a press. I used wood and hammers and made sure to keep everything square and not cockeyed.

Wouter
04-22-2013, 12:06 PM
Ok, thanks Kyle. Will try that tonight when I get home.

Wouter
04-22-2013, 02:51 PM
Mallet did the trick. Thanks again. Now, on to the clutch pack. Nice to have such good advice!
Working on removing (84) forward clutch cylinder: major pita: this is where the hammering comes in: haven't gotten it off completely but it is moving...
On another note: received the parts today.

Wouter
04-25-2013, 07:13 AM
Finished the transmition rebuild and will post a write-up with pictures if it's usefull. Everything was fairly easy except removing the front bearing snap ring (loads of pressure on this one), pressing the clutch pack (because I don't have a press) and removing the front shaft nut (because of lack of a big enough wrench socket (it's 38 mm hex, that's 1-1/2" )) Fortunately the mechanic across the street was willing to lend me his gear. I have one question pending though: My transmission did not have a snap ring to set clutch pack clearance (0.018" to 0.055".) This normally goes between ring gear and clutch pressure plate (69 and 71) (element 70 in the diagram) according to the service manual. Since it wasn't there to start with, I did not replace it... Should I reconsider that or not? Also, isn't there supposed to be a gasket between transmission and engine?

Kyle
04-25-2013, 09:37 AM
Don't worry about the snap ring missing. Some came with them and some didnt.

The thick snap ring is always hard to Venice and replace. Sounds like you got it.

No gasket goes between the bell housing and the engine. There is the big metal plate that goes on before the flywheel and the damper plate, but no gasket.

Wouter
04-25-2013, 09:46 AM
Thanks Kyle: I was hoping not to have to worry about the missing snap ring... (and not have to wait on an international order and take the thing apart again...)

You're sure I don't have to worry about clearance then? It won't cause creep or any other problems?

The thick bearing snap ring got a little warped when removing but looked sort of ok when I put it back in.

do you think it's usefull to make and post a write up? Thanks again for your invaluable help! Would have been a lonely job without it!

Kyle
04-25-2013, 09:51 AM
Pictures always are welcome so the next guy can get an idea of what's going on.

My book does not show a snap ring between the first pressure plate and ring gear. Basically it is there to keep the pressure plate from sliding through the ring gear. I'm sure you did it correctly.


Did your kit come with 6 or so extra rings for setting proper clearance?

Wouter
04-25-2013, 09:54 AM
BTW: here's a picture of the oil strainer filter. Pretty sure it was clogged

Kyle
04-25-2013, 10:02 AM
Dang that is a ton of clutch material and nasty on that filter.

Wouter
04-25-2013, 10:08 AM
Thoughts on clearance and snap ring? Really don't have to worry about it?

Kyle
04-25-2013, 10:44 AM
I'm sure your just fine.

Wouter
04-26-2013, 09:44 AM
Thanks again for your help. The complete rebuild thread is ready for review if you have time to take a look. Would be nice to get a second opinion on this and be sure that everything is where it should be.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=53874

OHIOPRO205
05-19-2013, 09:14 PM
I just sucked 49oz out of mine tonight. Now I am wondering if I should have just left it alone. So what oil should I use? 94 205 with the Borg-Warner Model 17. 1 to 1 ratio.


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