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Bouyhead
04-11-2013, 01:31 PM
Might be in the market for a reman 351W Iv'e been looking at Jasper, Michiganmotorz, etc. Just looking for a little input if anyone has any expierience with any of the engine builders out there. Rapido Marine in FL. seems to be the cheapest? Looks like $1500 for a long block, all others seem to be in the ballpark of $2000-$2500

Thanks

Kyle
04-11-2013, 01:44 PM
Might be in the market for a reman 351W Iv'e been looking at Jasper, Michiganmotorz, etc. Just looking for a little input if anyone has any expierience with any of the engine builders out there. Rapido Marine in FL. seems to be the cheapest? Looks like $1500 for a long block, all others seem to be in the ballpark of $2000-$2500

Thanks

There is no difference between a marine and auto rngine except brass freeze plugs.

I bought a short block for $1000 cash with brass plugs. Then added gt40p heads.

The long blocks come with heads. Make sure that the heads are not a total pos.


Here is an idea. Buy a short block 351 $1,200 probably, then bada$$ heads for $500 then a cam for $250 and that includes lifters and push rods. Get a marine gasket kit for $100.

$2000-2100 and you have a real nice engine. Top it off with a Edlebrock performer intake $250 and you will have 330hp. I have cam spec card and you can use it to order a cam from comp cams. 2 week turn around.


A member at our club has a jasper long block in his '93 190 1:1 and it is very much lacking power. It has no balls.

You need the good heads.....period drastic difference.

$1500 vs 2000 and kicking yourself forever knowing that this was your opportunity to have lots of power is not worth the savings.

The heads on the long block reman engines suck.

You also mention might be in the market. Take your engine out and have it freshened for $900. If you have gt40 or gt40p heads the valve job and refresh is $200 or so.

$1,500 keeping your existing engine is way better than the jasper setup.

Just ask phntmski about his engine. He loves it. I built it. If you don't build it yourself you are still better off letting the machine shop build it.

mikeg205
04-11-2013, 02:13 PM
There is no difference between a marine and auto rngine except brass freeze plugs.

I bought a short block for $1000 cash with brass plugs. Then added gt40p heads.

The long blocks come with heads. Make sure that the heads are not a total pos.


Here is an idea. Buy a short block 351 $1,200 probably, then bada$$ heads for $500 then a cam for $250 and that includes lifters and push rods. Get a marine gasket kit for $100.

$2000-2100 and you have a real nice engine. Top it off with a Edlebrock performer intake $250 and you will have 330hp. I have cam spec card and you can use it to order a cam from comp cams. 2 week turn around.


A member at our club has a jasper long block in his '93 190 1:1 and it is very much lacking power. It has no balls.

You need the good heads.....period drastic difference.

$1500 vs 2000 and kicking yourself forever knowing that this was your opportunity to have lots of power is not worth the savings.

The heads on the long block reman engines suck.

You also mention might be in the market. Take your engine out and have it freshened for $900. If you have gt40 or gt40p heads the valve job and refresh is $200 or so.

$1,500 keeping your existing engine is way better than the jasper setup.

Just ask phntmski about his engine. He loves it. I built it. If you don't build it yourself you are still better off letting the machine shop build it.

So that marine cam and other internals is all BS - so marinizing is brass plugs, marine cooling system and a marined tuned ECU for TBI/MPI? I thought they some how beefed up a few things they claim (marketing) for the stresses of marine life? :confused:

Kyle
04-11-2013, 02:35 PM
So that marine cam and other internals is all BS - so marinizing is brass plugs, marine cooling system and a marined tuned ECU for TBI/MPI? I thought they some how beefed up a few things they claim (marketing) for the stresses of marine life? :confused:

The cam has a certain lift and duration but the rest of the internals are not "beefed" up or made any different.

It is a huge marketing scam and is horse chit.

Indmar, PCM, crusader, etc took a auto engine put the marine cam and brass plugs in and badged a Chevy or Ford. It is a huge joke. Nothing inside such as crank, rods, pistons, bearings, oil pump, timing chain, etc are "marine". A marine cam only has a special lift and duration for mid range power. That is it.

mikeg205
04-11-2013, 02:37 PM
The cam has a certain lift and duration but the rest of the internals are not "beefed" up or made any different.

It is a huge marketing scam and is horse chit.

Indmar, PCM, crusader, etc took a auto engine put the marine cam and brass plugs in and badged a Chevy or Ford. It is a huge joke. Nothing inside such as crank, rods, pistons, bearings, oil pump, timing chain, etc are "marine". A marine cam only has a special lift and duration for mid range power. That is it.

Thanks...I love all this information here... :) -

FlyZone Costa Rica
04-11-2013, 05:43 PM
Wish I knew more about all this. But I don't. So this
"Product Description:

New OEM Indmar Marine 350 5.7L Long Block. Get the real thing from Indmar. Don't get sold a automotive block that can't handle the RPM's we demand in our water sports boats. Marine blocks use high performance parts & have tighter tolerances because of the lower temperatures we run on our engines (160 degrees vs. 240). Using the wrong base engine can lead to performance loss and premature failure."
is bullsh1t you say, Kyle? (Source http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1749).

Not sure if you've seen (and possibly answered in this thread http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=53258
What would you recommend? Is a 351 easy to put in and make work with transmission and everything else?
Thanks for any advice!

Jim@BAWS
04-11-2013, 05:51 PM
I guess the additional hardened valve seats in the heads are not really needed

WOW...I wish I had known all this prior to becoming a dealer. I guess if it is on the internet it
is all real and truthful!.

So the starter, the alternator, the fuel delivery... all the extra safety stuff is all BS. I guess I will
go back to selling car carbs and save the folks a few bucks..and when something happens to them I'll just walk myself over to the jail!

mikeg205
04-11-2013, 06:00 PM
I guess the additional hardened valve seats in the heads are not really needed

WOW...I wish I had known all this prior to becoming a dealer. I guess if it is on the internet it
is all real and truthful!.

So the starter, the alternator, the fuel delivery... all the extra safety stuff is all BS. I guess I will
go back to selling car carbs and save the folks a few bucks..and when something happens to them I'll just walk myself over to the jail!

We weren't talkin' 'bout the starter, alternator, fuel delivery system or safety stuff .. ;) - valve seats hardened? On which heads? was there a i.e. Vortec Marine Head and an Vortec Automotive head? :confused:

Kyle
04-11-2013, 07:34 PM
I guess my years of ASE certifications and knowing about tolerances don't mean anything.

We have one guy from a "Stealership" who sells "marine" engines. He makes a living selling marine parts and boats. Of course he would love to make a sale. Although he wants to beat down the accessories being marine vs automotive and that's not in the debate. Last time I checked we are disgusting engine internals (inside) and long/short blocks (both do not include accessories).

We also have another guy who is just trying to bust my balls saying marine engines have higher tolerances and automotive engines are slapped together loosely. Marine must be the only way to have tight tolerances.


Someone please show me

"Marine" specific

Block (besides brass plugs)
Rods
Rings
Pistons
Bearings cam and crank
Main caps
Push rods
Lifters
Cam
Oil pump
Timing chain
Timing gears
Head bolts
Main bolts
Intake bolts


I'll STFU when someone can show me marine specific parts. Until then people can keep fooling themselves with marketing.


I said the internals are the same and they are. These engines are cheap low HP engines built exactly like automobiles. Wanna talk about tolerances then build a BBC 572ci 980hp blown engine that has $30,000 in it. Then we can talk about the low rpm and low HP that are in these boats and compare the super bada$$ high quality race engine indmar made for this old boat.


Oh and for you guys doubting me. Get the ford part nubbers off of the head gasket and cross reference it to a felpro gasket part and notice that the non molested Ford indmar was an automotive gasket. Head gaskets were non marinized and were automotive but it was a high tolerance "marine" engine pushing a whopping 285hp. I have also been in several other indmar 351w non molested and they had the same automotive head gaskets. When I rebuilt mine I went back with a nice head gasket kit.

FlyZone Costa Rica
04-11-2013, 07:47 PM
When I said Wish I knew more about all this. But I don't., that's really what I meant. I honestly know next to nothing about it.



We also have another guy who is just trying to bust my balls saying marine engines have higher tolerances and automotive engines are slapped together loosely. Marine must be the only way to have tight tolerances.


So, I wasn't trying to bust any balls, but just comparing 2 pieces of info I have.
I'm looking for a replacement engine, and have thought about using an automotive block (which I can find locally) vs a marine engine (which I'd have to ship from the states). An automotive block would make life much easier, but I don't want to end up with a half assed product.

Therefore this thread has my attention and I genuinely asked for your opinion.
Let's keep the info coming!

Kyle
04-11-2013, 08:10 PM
When I said , that's really what I meant. I honestly know next to nothing about it.


So, I wasn't trying to bust any balls, but just comparing 2 pieces of info I have.
I'm looking for a replacement engine, and have thought about using an automotive block (which I can find locally) vs a marine engine (which I'd have to ship from the states). An automotive block would make life much easier, but I don't want to end up with a half assed product.

Therefore this thread has my attention and I genuinely asked for your opinion.
Let's keep the info coming!

A decent machine shop can build you a great engine. People beat the topic down. They just want to sell you something. I have been inside countless engines in my time. A good refreshing and having the machine shop assemble the lower end (actually comes with a warranty) will build it perfectly fine for our boats.

It is a huge sales scam. The rods in the marine bada$$ because it says "marine" are not high quality. They in fact are low budget mass production engines.

I don't believe for one minute that a marine engine would last any longer Than an automotive engine. The quality of the reman marine and automotive will be the same. Just buy a good auto reman from a good machine shop. They would rebuild it with better bearings than the el cheapo neighborhood off brand bearings, and you will NEVER know the difference.

I NEVER said go down to pep boys or napa and buy the cheapest internals on the shelf. What we are debating is the internals from indmar vs automotive ford factory vs jasper. If you tear into a non molested indmar why does it have ford stamped rods, bearings both cam-rod-main, and pistons instead of indmar rods and pistons? Do people really believe Ford shut down the assembly line and say oh these are indmar specs, gotta build it differently??? Absolutely not. Indmar buys x amount of brand new engines and labels them.

Base model engines that we use are all the same quality internals. Just different accessories and different cam, heads.

I have an automotive short block in mine. It will be just fine. Nothing to worry about. Just get descent bearings, brass plugs. Rings, rods, pistons are going to be same quality. I ordered better pistons but rods were the same.

TxsRiverRat
04-11-2013, 09:49 PM
Kyle, can you put a marine engine in my truck? I want high performance.


Thanks man :D

Rossterman
04-11-2013, 10:29 PM
Kyle,
Wow! You are Right on the money! i've built a number of smallblocks and as you said, the stock engines aren't anything special internally. As you say, For what you pay for a rebuilt engine, you can build a very stout replacement engine with upgraded parts. Here's a list of the good stuff the stock chevy (sold to the marine engine companies)DONT have:
1. 4 bolt main block
2. Gm"pink" forged rods
3. Steel crank w/ nitride coating
4. High stregnth moly rod bolts
5. Forged pistons
6. Moly rings
7. Torque plate used when boring/ honing cylinders
8. Clevite or trw tri-metal bearings
9. Mellings high volume oil pump
10. Precision balance

Here's the list of good stuff they do have however (which is also in the engine above):
1. Brass freeze plugs
2. Windage tray
3. SS head gaskets

Everyone should judge how "special" these stock engines really are....now you'd be true in saying they run great and have excellent reliability without all these fancy pieces but if the cost is the same, why not build the most durable engine you can?

mikeg205
04-11-2013, 10:33 PM
Kyle,
Wow! Right on the money!i've built a number of smallblocks and as you said, the stock engines aren't anything special internally. As you say, For what you pay for a rebuilt engine, you can build a very stout replacement engine with upgraded parts. Here's a list of the good stuff the stock chevy (sold to the marine engine companies)DONT have:
1. 4 bolt main block
2. Gm"pink" forged rods
3. Steel crank w/ nitride coating
4. High stregnth moly rod bolts
5. Forged pistons
6. Moly rings
7. Torque plate used when boring/ honing cylinders
8. Clevite or trw tir-metal bearings
9. Mellings high volume oil pump
10. Precision balance

Here's the list of good stuff they do have however:
1. Brass freeze plugs
2. Windage tray


You judge how "special" these stock engines really are....

What we get a windage cloud in our motors? <<Yes I looked it up ;) >>

Rossterman
04-11-2013, 10:46 PM
Kyle, can you put a marine engine in my truck? I want high performance.


Thanks man :D

Well, it's the plain flat one, not the wrap around tray used in LT-1s but better than nothing! He he :)

gotjag941
04-11-2013, 11:12 PM
I guess the additional hardened valve seats in the heads are not really needed

WOW...I wish I had known all this prior to becoming a dealer. I guess if it is on the internet it
is all real and truthful!.

So the starter, the alternator, the fuel delivery... all the extra safety stuff is all BS. I guess I will
go back to selling car carbs and save the folks a few bucks..and when something happens to them I'll just walk myself over to the jail!

Well said

Rossterman
04-12-2013, 01:02 AM
Jim,
You make a good point on the hardened seats because these motors do use one of the best smallblock chevy cylinder heads coming out of chevy- the vortech heads flow better then some of the early bowtie aftermarket parts that GM performance sold in the day.

But, the hardened seat heads weren't made for marine use, they were taken from the automotive line and many vortech 350 truck engines have had them before they were used in boat engines.

dihrdskir
04-12-2013, 01:27 AM
I think we have missed the point a little. When we started off we were looking at a remanufactured engine as a replacement for an exisiting marine application. I'm with Kyle and INTERNALLY there is no difference between what is a so called marine engine and an automotive engine. On this point definitely go with a machine shop to assemble the short block and choose some off the shelf New aftermarket heads select a compatible cam and modern ignition and away you go. 300 + all day. I made the mistake of buying a remanufactured engine from a shop 20 yrs ago and regret it to this day. Alternatively source a new crate motor. Externally however Jim has a point where marine applications require ignition source proof electric components.
On the issue of hardened valve seats, they made it into the automotive world down here in '86 with the introduction of compulsory unleaded fuel. Prior to this the lubrication provided by the lead in fuel lubricate them sufficiently to ensure they did not burn out. Hardened valve seats are a by product of necessity.

TxsRiverRat
04-12-2013, 01:42 AM
This one I'm sure has a high performance marine engine!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QdHn8FT7SdY/SeTc5Wr54yI/AAAAAAAAGj4/wHwSRdHxU5w/s400/redneck_waterlessSki.jpg

FrankSchwab
04-12-2013, 01:56 AM
Kyle,
Here's a list of the good stuff the stock chevy (sold to the marine engine companies)DONT have:
1. 4 bolt main block


I was under the impression that we DID get the 4-bolt main blocks off the Truck line rather than the 2-bolt mains off the Car line. Maybe I'm just full of ... misinformation.

Kyle
04-12-2013, 03:21 AM
I was under the impression that we DID get the 4-bolt main blocks off the Truck line rather than the 2-bolt mains off the Car line. Maybe I'm just full of ... misinformation.

The op has a Ford 351w not a Chevy. A 351w has 2 bolt mains unless it has been drilled by a machine shop or the engine is aftermarket.

351c came with 4 bolt mains.


You may be full of miss information. Someone selling you something will say anything to get you to buy it. Then if you find out later it is not what you thought it was.....oh well sorry is their attitude, or better yet the back peddle no I didn't say that.

CantRepeat
04-12-2013, 06:52 AM
Jim,
You make a good point on the hardened seats because these motors do use one of the best smallblock chevy cylinder heads coming out of chevy- the vortech heads flow better then some of the early bowtie aftermarket parts that GM performance sold in the day.

But, the hardened seat heads weren't made for marine use, they were taken from the automotive line and many vortech 350 truck engines have had them before they were used in boat engines.

There isn't a single old school chevy head(camel humps small or large, crowns too, hell or any other for that matter) that flows near what vortec heads flow. Even the crappy truck heads flow better they just get a bad rap because of weak valve springs.

The only heads that ever came close are the 492s. But aren't we talking Fords here?

As stated, hardened valve seats are not a marine specific design.

Gear heads butting heads always makes for a great thread!

btw: Unless you are making 600+ hp the difference between a 4 bolt block and 2 bolt block is $$ and ego.

freehugs
04-12-2013, 07:38 AM
http://i.imgur.com/iksJ0.gif

JimN
04-12-2013, 09:25 AM
There is no difference between a marine and auto rngine except brass freeze plugs.

I bought a short block for $1000 cash with brass plugs. Then added gt40p heads.

The long blocks come with heads. Make sure that the heads are not a total pos.


Here is an idea. Buy a short block 351 $1,200 probably, then bada$$ heads for $500 then a cam for $250 and that includes lifters and push rods. Get a marine gasket kit for $100.

$2000-2100 and you have a real nice engine. Top it off with a Edlebrock performer intake $250 and you will have 330hp. I have cam spec card and you can use it to order a cam from comp cams. 2 week turn around.


A member at our club has a jasper long block in his '93 190 1:1 and it is very much lacking power. It has no balls.

You need the good heads.....period drastic difference.

$1500 vs 2000 and kicking yourself forever knowing that this was your opportunity to have lots of power is not worth the savings.

The heads on the long block reman engines suck.

You also mention might be in the market. Take your engine out and have it freshened for $900. If you have gt40 or gt40p heads the valve job and refresh is $200 or so.

$1,500 keeping your existing engine is way better than the jasper setup.

Just ask phntmski about his engine. He loves it. I built it. If you don't build it yourself you are still better off letting the machine shop build it.

You mentioned that the heads suck- wouldn't that be due to them not necessarily being the same as the existing ones and different versions fitting on many blocks? This is a good argument for freshening up an existing engine (as long as the place guarantees the same engine is returned to the customer and the old one wasn't treated like a farm animal), but I don't know if using a Jasper or some other reman is always a bad thing for most people when they won't be doing the swap. It's fast, easy to swap the accessories and comes with a warranty- I don't know of many local shops that will offer the same when they go through an old engine. The cost you show is what you can pay but you have connections that are unavailable to many others. You can't compare the cost for you and what someone will pay to have someone else do this for them- it's like wholesale vs retail. As in any type of work, the ones who can do a lot of the work and make parts choices can save a lot of money. Another problem for someone doing this for the first time is finding a good shop- they all say they're good, but we all know they're not. Finding out the hard way that a shop isn't doing good work is a good way for someone to come to the conclusion that they'll never touch a car or boat again.

After working on boats in this state- seeing what some of the other dealers were doing and hearing what boat owners said about their experiences with some of the other dealers at the time (late-'90s into the early 2000s), I would have a hard time trusting them to work on my boat. I have enough trouble trusting anyone to work on my vehicles as it is.

FWIW, all of the Jasper engines I installed worked very well- I don't know why the one in the club member's boat sucks. Might have something to do with what was spec'd (info given by whoever was doing the work, whoever took the info, who filled the order, what was picked, etc) or it may have to do with what was being done at the time. Could it be a fuel system problem?

JimN
04-12-2013, 09:37 AM
I guess my years of ASE certifications and knowing about tolerances don't mean anything.

We have one guy from a "Stealership" who sells "marine" engines. He makes a living selling marine parts and boats. Of course he would love to make a sale. Although he wants to beat down the accessories being marine vs automotive and that's not in the debate. Last time I checked we are disgusting engine internals (inside) and long/short blocks (both do not include accessories).

We also have another guy who is just trying to bust my balls saying marine engines have higher tolerances and automotive engines are slapped together loosely. Marine must be the only way to have tight tolerances.


Someone please show me

"Marine" specific

Block (besides brass plugs)
Rods
Rings
Pistons
Bearings cam and crank
Main caps
Push rods
Lifters
Cam
Oil pump
Timing chain
Timing gears
Head bolts
Main bolts
Intake bolts


I'll STFU when someone can show me marine specific parts. Until then people can keep fooling themselves with marketing.


I said the internals are the same and they are. These engines are cheap low HP engines built exactly like automobiles. Wanna talk about tolerances then build a BBC 572ci 980hp blown engine that has $30,000 in it. Then we can talk about the low rpm and low HP that are in these boats and compare the super bada$$ high quality race engine indmar made for this old boat.


Oh and for you guys doubting me. Get the ford part nubbers off of the head gasket and cross reference it to a felpro gasket part and notice that the non molested Ford indmar was an automotive gasket. Head gaskets were non marinized and were automotive but it was a high tolerance "marine" engine pushing a whopping 285hp. I have also been in several other indmar 351w non molested and they had the same automotive head gaskets. When I rebuilt mine I went back with a nice head gasket kit.

These come off of the same assembly lines as the ones that go into the cars. They may change some parts (the intake manifold/injectors and occasionally the starter or alternator) but the rest is stock. There's really not much reason to change the internals- it's not a race motor and it doesn't need to withstand the stresses of having big tires hooking up to the track through a manual transmission. I think they sometimes spec a gasket set that works with water as the coolant rather than some kind of glycol, but the head gaskets I saw when I tore down engines looked pretty much like the replacements.

TxsRiverRat
04-12-2013, 10:00 AM
(as long as the place guarantees the same engine is returned to the customer and the old one wasn't treated like a farm animal)


Down here in Texas, folks are very respectful of farm animals - even down there inTyler, they kiss em on both cheeks before and after.... Can't ask for much more than that

mikeg205
04-12-2013, 10:32 AM
Down here in Texas, folks are very respectful of farm animals - even down there inTyler, they kiss em on both cheeks before and after.... Can't ask for much more than that

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-angry009.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


Txs.... ahh..what we learn about you... ;)

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked019.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Kyle
04-12-2013, 10:36 AM
JimN

You hit the nail right on the head. Thank you.


Let me elaborate. The jasper engine is put together very well and it has been reliable. It just doesn't have the power. The club member that I'm talking about had a '93 190 1:1 285hp. He cracked his block during a winter one year, winter skier and rolled the dice. He gambled and lost. Anyway he had a jasper installed. It was like the engine did not have anything HO on it. Gt40 heads were gone I'm sure a different cam but when you throw that kind of cash then you should expect factory kind of power. Not the power of running a 3 legged race with a partner that has a broken leg.


Second off. I have connections yes but my cost is very close to retail. Where I save the most is doing the work myself vs paying someone. I'm very aware of the bad wrap that mechanics get of being halfa$$ cheaters and liars. I would be in the same boat if I moved across the country, but that is where you stop by several shops (non machine shop) and ask who they recommend for the best work. Doing so will lead you pretty straight. The guy referring you pays the machine shop and his dollar means something to him, so I'm sure the referral would be pretty good.


Thank you also explaining the automotive Ford assembly line process to these guys. Folks wanna just argue and beat a dead horse. When someone who has been around as long as you have and has earned the boat genious title, people tend to agree and move on.

Kyle
04-12-2013, 10:38 AM
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-angry009.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


Txs.... ahh..what we learn about you... ;)

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked019.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Well no one ever knows what rat will say. He lives in his own special world.

TxsRiverRat
04-12-2013, 11:25 AM
It's states like arkansas, west virginia and parts of mississippi that they're mistreated...

Just sayin... lmao

TN Barefooter
04-12-2013, 11:25 AM
It's states like arkansas, west virginia and parts of mississippi that they're mistreated...

Just sayin... lmao

Bah ha ha!

Kyle
04-12-2013, 11:27 AM
It's states like arkansas, west virginia and parts of mississippi that they're mistreated...

Just sayin... lmao

So you are saying people in the Bible Belt mistreat animals. :confused:

TxsRiverRat
04-12-2013, 11:31 AM
So you are saying people in the Bible Belt mistreat animals. :confused:

In those states, when you pull over to the side of the road to pee, the sheep back up to the fence. :D

mikeg205
04-12-2013, 11:32 AM
It's states like arkansas, west virginia and parts of mississippi that they're mistreated...

Just sayin... lmao

So you are saying people in the Bible Belt mistreat animals. :confused:

In those states, when you pull over to the side of the road to pee, the sheep back up to the fence. :D

Let's get back to the topic... it really is more interesting... :)

Kyle
04-12-2013, 11:36 AM
Let's get back to the topic... it really is more interesting... :)

Lmao

Yes sir back to schooling folks about engines :D

mikeg205
04-12-2013, 11:38 AM
Lmao

Yes sir back to schooling folks about engines :D

Take Txs out tonight... make sure he behaves and has a great night ;) - so he keeps his mind on the right priorities... ;)

Kyle
04-12-2013, 11:40 AM
Take Txs out tonight... make sure he behaves and has a great night ;) - so he keeps his mind on the right priorities... ;)

As much as I do for him he owes me many nights out.......

TxsRiverRat
04-12-2013, 11:40 AM
Ask anyone from those states - sheep can be trained to push back.

LMAO - sorry, to get off topic, but these pissing matches really make me laugh. As far as the ongoing debate, I'd place my life savings on Kyles posting below all day long over anyone else - he truly knows his stuff more than any dealership ever will.

mikeg205
04-12-2013, 11:51 AM
Ask anyone from those states - sheep can be trained to push back.

LMAO - sorry, to get off topic, but these pissing matches really make me laugh. As far as the ongoing debate, I'd place my life savings on Kyles posting below all day long over anyone else - he truly knows his stuff more than any dealership ever will.

haha... off topic - we strayed into another county... ;)

bsloop
04-12-2013, 12:16 PM
From the little experience I have had with engine building but with exposure to a machine shop owner / HP marine engine enthusiast......

Most parts are about the same and as we have established. Mass production does cut quality corners where for only a slight increase in cost, better parts can be sourced. Remember they are building average performance for an expected lifecycle.

Besides a few pieces like freeze plugs and gaskets, there is little material difference. What does matter is how it is put together. Marine engines are built to live at 4,000+rpm and other environmental considerations that auto engines don't have to consider.
Clearances and tolerances are some of the big variables that make a difference whether an engine lives or dies.
The good builders also seem to have a few tricks they hold pretty close.
These make the difference whether an engine will make 285hp or 420hp, have good idle characteristics, run on pump gas, and live more than a season.

Rossterman
04-12-2013, 12:21 PM
btw: Unless you are making 600+ hp the difference between a 4 bolt block and 2 bolt block is $$ and ego.[/QUOTE]

Agree- there are a ton of 2 bolt main Chevys making lots of power on a 2 bolt main block and i've personally never seen a 2 bolt main block fail at the main caps. But 4 bolt blocks are cheap and plentiful so why not use the more stout piece if cost isn't much difference?

I guess I'm from the school that the best thing about hotrods, boats, etc is building them. Researching the parts needed, building it, and that first time it comes to life is a ton of fun!

I was a journeyman machinist when I was young and have worked an office job for 25 years since then but still dream at night of those days when I worked with my hands for a living!

willyt
04-12-2013, 01:23 PM
this has been the most interesting thread ive read in a long time, for multiple reasons

thatsmrmastercraft
04-12-2013, 01:57 PM
From the little experience I have had with engine building but with exposure to a machine shop owner / HP marine engine enthusiast......

Most parts are about the same and as we have established. Mass production does cut quality corners where for only a slight increase in cost, better parts can be sourced. Remember they are building average performance for an expected lifecycle.

Besides a few pieces like freeze plugs and gaskets, there is little material difference. What does matter is how it is put together. Marine engines are built to live at 4,000+rpm and other environmental considerations that auto engines don't have to consider.
Clearances and tolerances are some of the big variables that make a difference whether an engine lives or dies.
The good builders also seem to have a few tricks they hold pretty close.
These make the difference whether an engine will make 285hp or 420hp, have good idle characteristics, run on pump gas, and live more than a season.

There are instances where this isn't true. Having been a sales rep for Jasper, I can use their example here. Cylinders are honed using torque-plates and main saddles are align honed. All engines are run on a dyno and compression and temperatures are recorded. Not all small shops can offer these processes. When I was working for Jasper, they were Federal/Mogul's largest customer. That says a lot. Not that many small shops don't produce some very good work, just that there is something to be said for the consistency of a larger more well equipped operation.

http://www.jasperengines.com/performance-marine-engines.php

http://www.jasperengines.com/jasper-process-gasengines.php

Bouyhead
04-12-2013, 02:01 PM
I think I left out some critical info but enjoying the debate, animals and all! Lot's of good info from Kyle & JimN thanks for setting the record straight. I knew about the different cams but was suprised to hear about standard head gaskets? Maybe this is why the motor failed. I do agree with Kyle, a perfect time to upgrade for a little more money, but it is a project boat that needs a motor.(sorry i left that out in the op) I'd like to go the reman route because it will be the quickest AND I'll get a transferable warranty and I'm sure a fresh 240 HP motor will do just fine for most people. I would consider Kyles solution just not sure about the aluminum intake if the boat will see saltwater and I'd really like to sell the boat with a transferable warranty so I need to check on that. BTW, I'm picking the boat up Sunday, super, super clean unmolested TriStar that needs nothing besides the motor. I'll have some pics Sunday or Monday. I'm also going to have some pics of an 01' SD 190 that is gonna make you cry.

Bouyhead
04-12-2013, 02:03 PM
this has been the most interesting thread ive read in a long time, for multiple reasons

If this was summer, i don't think it would have got past post#2:D

Bouyhead
04-12-2013, 02:05 PM
There are instances where this isn't true. Having been a sales rep for Jasper, I can use their example here. Cylinders are honed using torque-plates and main saddles are align honed. All engines are run on a dyno and compression and temperatures are recorded. Not all small shops can offer these processes. When I was working for Jasper, they were Federal/Mogul's largest customer. That says a lot. Not that many small shops don't produce some very good work, just that there is something to be said for the consistency of a larger more well equipped operation.

http://www.jasperengines.com/performance-marine-engines.php

http://www.jasperengines.com/jasper-process-gasengines.php

I was waiting for you to chime in Peter! Iv'e been doing a lot of reading and they all promise you the best but Jasper does have a pretty big operation.

thatsmrmastercraft
04-12-2013, 02:17 PM
I was waiting for you to chime in Peter! Iv'e been doing a lot of reading and they all promise you the best but Jasper does have a pretty big operation.

I was waiting for the animal portion of this thread to settle down. When you sit down with the folks at Jasper, they will quietly tell you that you get a better engine from them than a brand new engine as Jasper starts with a seasoned block and there are way fewer block warranty issues with a Jasper than an OE engine. Jasper has grown into a large operation, and their products carry a substantial price tag. Buying their products is clearly a case where you truly do get what you pay for. The question is always can you justify the expense. Relatively easy to do if you plan to keep the boat for a while. If you plan to flip it, then having a Jasper engine might make it more sale-able but it probably won't bring more money. Jasper warranty is second to none. They truly stand behind their product. Anyone see warranty labor covered from other companies? Or small shops?

Rossterman
04-12-2013, 03:04 PM
There are instances where this isn't true. Having been a sales rep for Jasper, I can use their example here. Cylinders are honed using torque-plates and main saddles are align honed. All engines are run on a dyno and compression and temperatures are recorded. Not all small shops can offer these processes. When I was working for Jasper, they were Federal/Mogul's largest customer. That says a lot. Not that many small shops don't produce some very good work, just that there is something to be said for the consistency of a larger more well equipped operation.

http://www.jasperengines.com/performance-marine-engines.php

http://www.jasperengines.com/jasper-process-gasengines.php

Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. Was referring to factory Chevy build not aftermarket rebuilders. As you point out good engine shops (like jasper seems to be from what ive read about them) typically put them together with more care and better parts than stock. That being said, You can also buy a $700 350 short block on ebay but probably built with cheapest parts possible. The key message here is research who's building it, what parts are remanufactured vs. replaced, whether they use brand name replacement parts, and spend your money wisely.

mikeg205
04-12-2013, 03:20 PM
This has truly become a great thread... I hope I never have to refer back to it...but I am glad I know there's good info and people to refer to if I need to...

TxsRiverRat
04-12-2013, 03:35 PM
I just found the difference between a marine engine and a normal one...

High performance baby

http://s16.postimg.org/6a0djsr39/hamster.jpg

jmorone
04-12-2013, 03:37 PM
This is a great thread. It gives me some confidence I will be able to spec a rebuild with a little bit of research and the help of a good engine shop. Also I had no idea sheep could be trained.

mikeg205
04-12-2013, 03:55 PM
This is a great thread. It gives me some confidence I will be able to spec a rebuild with a little bit of research and the help of a good engine shop. Also I had no idea sheep could be trained.

You're just going to encourage him... :D

thatsmrmastercraft
04-12-2013, 04:26 PM
Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. Was referring to factory Chevy build not aftermarket rebuilders. As you point out good engine shops (like jasper seems to be from what ive read about them) typically put them together with more care and better parts than stock. That being said, You can also buy a $700 350 short block on ebay but probably built with cheapest parts possible. The key message here is research who's building it, what parts are remanufactured vs. replaced, whether they use brand name replacement parts, and spend your money wisely.

With all the directions this thread has taken, it's no surprise I was a little off the mark. I agree with the ebay example.

TxsRiverRat
04-12-2013, 04:30 PM
This is a great thread. It gives me some confidence I will be able to spec a rebuild with a little bit of research and the help of a good engine shop. Also I had no idea sheep could be trained.

I bet you didnt know every mastercraft ever built had hamsters in the motor either!

You're just going to encourage him... :D

Encourage me? LOL :D

TayMC197
04-12-2013, 08:22 PM
I use rotella T motor oil in my boat.


Let the comments start!

Bouyhead
04-12-2013, 08:45 PM
I use rotella T motor oil in my boat.


Let the comments start!

What does the sheep prefer?;););)

SSMoose
04-12-2013, 09:10 PM
Well no one ever knows what rat will say. He lives in his own special world.

Maybe he does, but they know him there. I have a place like that.
:D

Bouyhead
04-12-2013, 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
Well no one ever knows what rat will say. He lives in his own special world.



Maybe he does, but they know him there. I have a place like that.
:D

Kind of like pram;)?

JimN
04-12-2013, 09:26 PM
Down here in Texas, folks are very respectful of farm animals - even down there inTyler, they kiss em on both cheeks before and after.... Can't ask for much more than that

They could at least buy dinner and a few drinks. Not even the common courtesy of a reach-around, eh?

JimN
04-12-2013, 09:42 PM
JimN

You hit the nail right on the head. Thank you.


Let me elaborate. The jasper engine is put together very well and it has been reliable. It just doesn't have the power. The club member that I'm talking about had a '93 190 1:1 285hp. He cracked his block during a winter one year, winter skier and rolled the dice. He gambled and lost. Anyway he had a jasper installed. It was like the engine did not have anything HO on it. Gt40 heads were gone I'm sure a different cam but when you throw that kind of cash then you should expect factory kind of power. Not the power of running a 3 legged race with a partner that has a broken leg.


Second off. I have connections yes but my cost is very close to retail. Where I save the most is doing the work myself vs paying someone. I'm very aware of the bad wrap that mechanics get of being halfa$$ cheaters and liars. I would be in the same boat if I moved across the country, but that is where you stop by several shops (non machine shop) and ask who they recommend for the best work. Doing so will lead you pretty straight. The guy referring you pays the machine shop and his dollar means something to him, so I'm sure the referral would be pretty good.


Thank you also explaining the automotive Ford assembly line process to these guys. Folks wanna just argue and beat a dead horse. When someone who has been around as long as you have and has earned the boat genious title, people tend to agree and move on.

I would have to think that if it has been bored, pistons/connecting rods replaced with similar, cam re-ground to the same profile (which Jasper does), valve job/replace valves as needed after inspection and if the OEM intake/carb or injection is re-installed, the engine should be as powerful as it was when new. I would look into what could be causing the lack of power. AFAIK, the OEM crank goes back in the engine after being cleaned up and given new bearings. I went on their tour and after seeing that, I can't think of a reason it would be less powerful, other than less intense spark, incorrect fuel delivery, major frictional losses (which I seriously doubt, since it has run well and not destroyed itself by now) or something after the engine is causing the loss, like a tweaked strut, tight strut bearings, a tweaked/excessively cupped prop or something like those. I have to think the GT40 heads being gone made the difference. I can't see how it could have breathed the same after the rebuild.

If you're paying close to retail, you need better connections.:D

I was actually referring to GM's assembly line. I started at a MC dealer after they changed to GM, but we still saw Supras, Tige, older MC, Nautique, etc. The ones I was trained on were GM. As far as 'jeanius', I just have a really good memory, which makes it easy to spew this info.

JimN
04-12-2013, 09:51 PM
I bet you didnt know every mastercraft ever built had hamsters in the motor either!



Encourage me? LOL :D

The others have hamsters- MC uses honey badgers.

TxsRiverRat
04-12-2013, 10:13 PM
The others have hamsters- MC uses honey badgers.


LMAO :D

SkiDaddy
04-13-2013, 08:40 AM
LMAO :D

The others have hamsters- MC uses honey badgers.

A nice video on the inner workings of the MC motor...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg


;)

TxsRiverRat
04-13-2013, 11:31 AM
A nice video on the inner workings of the MC motor...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg


;)

LOL - celebrity death match: kenny loggins? Or honey badger?


:D :D :D

03 35th Anniversary
04-13-2013, 11:49 AM
The water pump.... is marine specific....

8p


I guess my years of ASE certifications and knowing about tolerances don't mean anything.

We have one guy from a "Stealership" who sells "marine" engines. He makes a living selling marine parts and boats. Of course he would love to make a sale. Although he wants to beat down the accessories being marine vs automotive and that's not in the debate. Last time I checked we are disgusting engine internals (inside) and long/short blocks (both do not include accessories).

We also have another guy who is just trying to bust my balls saying marine engines have higher tolerances and automotive engines are slapped together loosely. Marine must be the only way to have tight tolerances.


Someone please show me

"Marine" specific

Block (besides brass plugs)
Rods
Rings
Pistons
Bearings cam and crank
Main caps
Push rods
Lifters
Cam
Oil pump
Timing chain
Timing gears
Head bolts
Main bolts
Intake bolts


I'll STFU when someone can show me marine specific parts. Until then people can keep fooling themselves with marketing.


I said the internals are the same and they are. These engines are cheap low HP engines built exactly like automobiles. Wanna talk about tolerances then build a BBC 572ci 980hp blown engine that has $30,000 in it. Then we can talk about the low rpm and low HP that are in these boats and compare the super bada$$ high quality race engine indmar made for this old boat.


Oh and for you guys doubting me. Get the ford part nubbers off of the head gasket and cross reference it to a felpro gasket part and notice that the non molested Ford indmar was an automotive gasket. Head gaskets were non marinized and were automotive but it was a high tolerance "marine" engine pushing a whopping 285hp. I have also been in several other indmar 351w non molested and they had the same automotive head gaskets. When I rebuilt mine I went back with a nice head gasket kit.

mikeg205
04-13-2013, 12:00 PM
The water pump.... is marine specific....

8p

..........

Rossterman
04-13-2013, 12:22 PM
The water pump.... is marine specific....

8p

So is the paint :)

JimN
04-13-2013, 12:30 PM
LOL - celebrity death match: kenny loggins? Or honey badger?


:D :D :D

Depends- with, or without Messina? If Stevie Nicks is there, no question.

03 35th Anniversary
04-13-2013, 12:33 PM
Kyle is pretty much spot on despite whatever marketing BS google and bing provide.

When I got into the motor part of the project in the thread below. I started digging up part numbers and cross ref. them to make sure...... and low and behold they cross ref. to the same parts you buy at Auto Zone... But at 15% of the $$$$

IIRC the only parts/gaskets that were marine specific were all water jacket related. Other than the little "J" style return spouts on the carb.

A set of GT-40 and GT-40p heads are just that... There are No "Marine" Specific or "Marine" Versions. The Automotive ones are same ones they use in the Marine App....


http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=28457

03 35th Anniversary
04-13-2013, 12:34 PM
LOL - celebrity death match: kenny loggins? Or honey badger?


:D :D :D

Honey Badger don't care.... :cool:

JimN
04-13-2013, 12:47 PM
..........

Actually, that comment about the water pump is correct. Some of you may have had problems with multiple circulating pumps leaking at the shaft seal and that was a GM part failure. The Sierra replacements worked because the seal they used was made to work with water as the coolant, rather than some kind of glycol. Greg (School Skier) had a Prostar and I replaced his pump three times before finding out that MC had been battling with GM over this. GM swore that they weren't at fault and denied the part replacements, MC claimed it was GM's fault and finally, started buying replacement pumps from Sierra so the boaters could get back on the water while the real cause was found. Turned out that GM changed the seal and didn't tell anyone about it. Rochester changed the choke plate on the EFI throttle body in 2000 by deleting the hole and it caused hot start problems- apparently, they didn't think about the fact that the engine calibrations were finished and again, didn't say anything about the change.

mikeg205
04-13-2013, 01:02 PM
Actually, that comment about the water pump is correct. Some of you may have had problems with multiple circulating pumps leaking at the shaft seal and that was a GM part failure. The Sierra replacements worked because the seal they used was made to work with water as the coolant, rather than some kind of glycol. Greg (School Skier) had a Prostar and I replaced his pump three times before finding out that MC had been battling with GM over this. GM swore that they weren't at fault and denied the part replacements, MC claimed it was GM's fault and finally, started buying replacement pumps from Sierra so the boaters could get back on the water while the real cause was found. Turned out that GM changed the seal and didn't tell anyone about it. Rochester changed the choke plate on the EFI throttle body in 2000 by deleting the hole and it caused hot start problems- apparently, they didn't think about the fact that the engine calibrations were finished and again, didn't say anything about the change.


But doesn't the marine version on the GM have a different housing for marine specific hose connections?

03 35th Anniversary
04-13-2013, 01:03 PM
But doesn't the marine version on the GM have a different housing for marine specific hose connections?

I know the Ford 351w does...

JimN
04-13-2013, 01:09 PM
But doesn't the marine version on the GM have a different housing for marine specific hose connections?

Not necessarily. Some have a cap on the bypass, some are blocked off and some have no tube at all. The pump body is just a standard older-style part that was used in the '80s and '90s before they went to the kind that has a removable core (3.8L, like in a Buick LeSabre). The pump that was on my '80s Cutlass would have been a direct replacement. The only one that was non-standard for most of GM's cars was the LT-1 pump with reverse cooling, but that was still standard for the LT-1 of that vintage.

The parts that had fittings for the exhaust manifolds, etc were additional parts, not part of the pump.

mikeg205
04-13-2013, 01:18 PM
Not necessarily. Some have a cap on the bypass, some are blocked off and some have no tube at all. The pump body is just a standard older-style part that was used in the '80s and '90s before they went to the kind that has a removable core (3.8L, like in a Buick LeSabre). The pump that was on my '80s Cutlass would have been a direct replacement. The only one that was non-standard for most of GM's cars was the LT-1 pump with reverse cooling, but that was still standard for the LT-1 of that vintage.

The parts that had fittings for the exhaust manifolds, etc were additional parts, not part of the pump.

Ok..went out and took a look - as always Jim...you really know your stuff. I was going from memory... lol...my brain scramble the water pump and t-stat hose connections.. I had to go look and re-save the memory. ;) :D

JimN
04-13-2013, 01:22 PM
But doesn't the marine version on the GM have a different housing for marine specific hose connections?

Other than two, I have always owned GM vehicles.

Table Rocker
04-13-2013, 02:42 PM
The only one that was non-standard for most of GM's cars was the LT-1 pump with reverse cooling, but that was still standard for the LT-1 of that vintage.
Yep, the water pump on my '96 LT-1 was an ACDelco 251-537 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/acf-251-537/applications) with a steel impeller, which was standard for a '92 Corvette. The later years had a heater outlet on the pump.