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Hanse1
02-26-2013, 11:22 AM
I just purchased a 98 Anniversary boat this weekend. One of the best looking MC's in my opinion and have always wanted one. I have a 91 Barefoot 200 also but will sell that in spring. Before that I had a 84 stars and stripes. Wanted to get back to an inboard, missed the V8 rumble. It has 290 hours on it and in decent shape. There are a couple of stickers that need to be replaced and will do that after the snow is gone. Come on spring!

epnault
02-26-2013, 11:28 AM
Nice boat. Saw that one on Craigslist a while back. I bought a boat in Tomahawk this winter too, except it was a pontoon, not as exciting :)

bikenskijerm
02-26-2013, 11:46 AM
Gorgeous boat! That is still one of the best looking MC's ever built IMHO.

Congrats!

broncotw
02-26-2013, 12:24 PM
Sharp boat! Congrats!

jk13
02-26-2013, 12:57 PM
Nice! Drove by there last weekend to see if they were open and look at that one. Glad someone close to local bought it. You on Nokomis, or ???

thatsmrmastercraft
02-26-2013, 01:05 PM
Great looking boat. Hoping to see it around. I have relatives in Tomahawk and surrounding area.

EricB
02-26-2013, 01:15 PM
Great looking boat. I have a 98 Anniversary also, so I agree that it's one of the best looking (along with the 93 S&S's).
Is it a Powerslot? Looks like the waterpump has been replaced. Even though your last boat was an OB, I think you'll be very pleased with the holeshot of this boat. Top end speed will be a suprise too.

TxsRiverRat
02-26-2013, 01:19 PM
I love the graphics. let's see a pic of that trailer - looks to have some glitter in it too...

Does the boat have the transom inserts and cross rudder installed?

CC2MC
02-26-2013, 01:22 PM
What's up with that rudder? Was that something only offered on the Anniversary edition? Does it make the boat turn better or what?

And, nice looking boat too.

zsqure
02-26-2013, 01:25 PM
Beautiful boat! This is what MCOCD is all about. 10, 15, 20 years later it still looks like it came out of the showroom.

TxsRiverRat
02-26-2013, 01:29 PM
What's up with that rudder? Was that something only offered on the Anniversary edition? Does it make the boat turn better or what?

And, nice looking boat too.

I don't know the full story behind it, only that during the pro tour 1998 they had to make mods to the hull and rudder. One of these MC experts on here I am sure can speak to it

Jason.H.
02-26-2013, 01:34 PM
I think some of them had porpusing (sp?) issues, maybe? so they came up with a different rudder design. I remember reading something about it on here maybe six months ago.

JohnE
02-26-2013, 02:48 PM
I don't know the full story behind it, only that during the pro tour 1998 they had to make mods to the hull and rudder. One of these MC experts on here I am sure can speak to it

I think some of them had porpusing (sp?) issues, maybe? so they came up with a different rudder design. I remember reading something about it on here maybe six months ago.

That hull reportedly was prone to chine lock. The winged rudder corrected the issue from what I've been told. Also there are 2 versions of the rudder. The more recent has the wings parallel with the drive shaft.

Double D
02-26-2013, 02:54 PM
I know Captain Planet can tell you all you need to know about the boat since he owns its twin.

Congrats on the purchase. One of my favorite color schemes!!

TxsRiverRat
02-26-2013, 03:21 PM
This is what I was referring to:

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=57786&d=1273098118

milkmania
02-26-2013, 03:22 PM
congrats! always been one of my favorites:headbang:

http://www.newdimensiontowers.com/

mzimme
02-26-2013, 03:39 PM
Sexy. Nice boat!

Hanse1
02-26-2013, 03:45 PM
Thanks it does have the winged rudder and a 4th fin under it. I am usually out on Lake Nokomis until they drop the water. Then usually on the WI river in town. I ski with the Kwahomot's so spend a lot of time on the river. The trailer is in great shape and has the metal flake fenders.

Snipe
02-26-2013, 04:16 PM
I think some of them had porpusing (sp?) issues, maybe? so they came up with a different rudder design. I remember reading something about it on here maybe six months ago.
I just got a '98 Prostar190. Now I have another question. Mine has the inserts and the winged rudder and also four tracking fins. I hope I didn't buy a problem boat as I didn't get to run it before purchase. The season was over and it had been winterized. A bit of paranoia is setting in here. :eek::eek:

prostar205
02-26-2013, 04:58 PM
Absolutely beautiful. One of my favorite MasterCraft designs. Congrats!!!

jk13
02-26-2013, 05:24 PM
Awesome, will definitely keep an eye out for that beauty when we're up that way.

Table Rocker
02-26-2013, 05:28 PM
Beautiful boat. The blue LT-1 is one of my favorite sights.

east tx skier
02-26-2013, 05:32 PM
Nice looking boat.

gotta_ski
02-26-2013, 06:49 PM
Snipe: My 98 also has 4 tracking fins. They called it PPTS, of positive pressure tracking system. Band-aid or not, I love the boat and it skis awesome. Let me know if you have any year specific questions or what not.

JohnE
02-26-2013, 07:16 PM
On a side note I think the 98 anniversary with the flag decal removed is the same scheme as the 93. Looks amazing without the flag IMO. Someone posted a link to one for sale at Boulder Boats a while ago.

captain planet
02-26-2013, 07:16 PM
This is what I was referring to:

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=57786&d=1273098118

I just got a '98 Prostar190. Now I have another question. Mine has the inserts and the winged rudder and also four tracking fins. I hope I didn't buy a problem boat as I didn't get to run it before purchase. The season was over and it had been winterized. A bit of paranoia is setting in here. :eek::eek:

Those are the hydra rails. They were added to all Soften the wake.

Snipe, you have nothing to worry about, it sounds like your boat has all the proper equipment so you should be in excellent shape. If your rudder fins are not at the same angle as the prop shaft, you can get a different rudder that will improve the wake.

JohnE
02-26-2013, 07:32 PM
FWIW, my info posted earlier came from CP.

rodltg2
02-26-2013, 08:25 PM
The 98-2001 were know for chime lock , a bad wake and bad tracking. The fixes were the rails , 4th tracking and t rudder.

I
don't have any experience with the 98 but from what I've read and heard the 01 shared some if the same characteristics including t shaped rudder. I did not love the boat but its not that bad. If I had my preference I would choose another year , but I wouldn't turn it down either.

I think on a ski lake with islands and or tight turn arounds it's more if an issue.

TN Barefooter
02-26-2013, 10:15 PM
That is a beautiful boat, congratulations on the purchase.

Bouyhead
02-26-2013, 10:47 PM
The 98-2001 were know for chime lock , a bad wake and bad tracking. The fixes were the rails , 4th tracking and t rudder.

I
don't have any experience with the 98 but from what I've read and heard the 01 shared some if the same characteristics including t shaped rudder. I did not love the boat but its not that bad. If I had my preference I would choose another year , but I wouldn't turn it down either.

I think on a ski lake with islands and or tight turn arounds it's more if an issue.

I agree. Bad tracking & a bad wake are subjective, a tournament skier might pass but everyone else will think its fine. Chine lock is a safety issue but like you said only on confined sites. I think a lot of bad press comes from the fact that MC was building world class slalom tugs right up to 97' The 94' hull has a cult following and the 95-97 hull was just as good, so when the 98 came out hardcore slalom guys were left scratching their heads. I don't ski deep shortline but when I bring my boat to FL in the winter some of my buds do. They love skiing behind my 96 and I can give them a pretty good pull for a 17 year old boat. BTW I would buy that 98 on looks alone, it's gorgeous!

DemolitionMan
02-26-2013, 10:55 PM
Congrats on the 30th!

captain planet
02-27-2013, 07:50 AM
The 98-2001 were know for chime lock , a bad wake and bad tracking. The fixes were the rails , 4th tracking and t rudder.

I
don't have any experience with the 98 but from what I've read and heard the 01 shared some if the same characteristics including t shaped rudder. I did not love the boat but its not that bad. If I had my preference I would choose another year , but I wouldn't turn it down either.

I think on a ski lake with islands and or tight turn arounds it's more if an issue.

I agree. Bad tracking & a bad wake are subjective, a tournament skier might pass but everyone else will think its fine. Chine lock is a safety issue but like you said only on confined sites. I think a lot of bad press comes from the fact that MC was building world class slalom tugs right up to 97' The 94' hull has a cult following and the 95-97 hull was just as good, so when the 98 came out hardcore slalom guys were left scratching their heads. I don't ski deep shortline but when I bring my boat to FL in the winter some of my buds do. They love skiing behind my 96 and I can give them a pretty good pull for a 17 year old boat. BTW I would buy that 98 on looks alone, it's gorgeous!

OK, to set the record straight. The finned rudder was the correction for the chime lock. The 4th fin was to improve tracking (I've never seen even a photo of a 98 that doesn't have 4 fins), the hydra rails were to soften the wake, and changing the wing angle on the rudder in 99 was prevent prop wash from being deflected back up into the wake. The 'safety issue' isn't there unless you have a 98 that has no fins on the rudder.

Over 700 hours on my boat with its fair share of slalom pulls and tight turns has yet to lock up on me. I've tried to get my boat to do it and can't. I wanted to see what happens so I know how to correct it. I've also talked with the guy that was driving the 98 when it did it and I don't think he was able to get it to do it again either.

I think Farmer Ted made a famous statement about shampoo on here once regarding this.

Double D
02-27-2013, 09:13 AM
OK, to set the record straight. The finned rudder was the correction for the chime lock. The 4th fin was to improve tracking (I've never seen even a photo of a 98 that doesn't have 4 fins), the hydra rails were to soften the wake, and changing the wing angle on the rudder in 99 was prevent prop wash from being deflected back up into the wake. The 'safety issue' isn't there unless you have a 98 that has no fins on the rudder.

Over 700 hours on my boat with its fair share of slalom pulls and tight turns has yet to lock up on me. I've tried to get my boat to do it and can't. I wanted to see what happens so I know how to correct it. I've also talked with the guy that was driving the 98 when it did it and I don't think he was able to get it to do it again either.

I think Farmer Ted made a famous statement about shampoo on here once regarding this.

So, didn't I tell you people?? The MAN!!

jhall0711
02-27-2013, 10:24 AM
I think Farmer Ted made a famous statement about shampoo on here once regarding this.

Did it involve shampoo CP?

east tx skier
02-27-2013, 12:30 PM
OK, to set the record straight. The finned rudder was the correction for the chime lock. The 4th fin was to improve tracking (I've never seen even a photo of a 98 that doesn't have 4 fins), the hydra rails were to soften the wake, and changing the wing angle on the rudder in 99 was prevent prop wash from being deflected back up into the wake. The 'safety issue' isn't there unless you have a 98 that has no fins on the rudder.

That about sums it up. I'll add that, under the right circumstances, you can chine lock/walk any boat. I did it once in my old 205. Weight in the bow, hole shot, relatively shallow water (say 4 feet), an starting into a turn is the magic formula. It's a bit scary if you don't know what it is. All you can do is back off the throttle and wait for the boat to settle down in the water. It's likely that the driver in the boat test was less inclined to do this under the circumstances and didn't have much room to let the boat settle down on a private lake setup anyway. It happens.

The hull design of the 98 190 was such that its arse end was less inclined to plant in the water while underway. The result of this was (1) a fantastic slalom wake and (2) a greater tendency to chine lock/walk. Per one of the AWSA test skiers that year that posted on this forum a couple of years ago, it did it twice and ended up on the beach during the boat tests. The closed quarters on private ski lakes are the scary part of that, and MC could not afford to have it do that in front of a tournament crowd (tournaments had crowds in the late 90s). The safety fix was the winged rudder and the 4th skeg (the additional skeg also helps with tracking). This kept the aft end planted and made the previously exceptional wake less so. The percentage of boats in the wild today without these two add ons is impossibly small. As a result, these boats are probably the least likely boats to chine walk there are. In 1999, the hydrorails became standard equipment to smooth out the wake.

Apart from all of that, the foiled rudder doesn't turn quite so well as a traditional rudder. But this is probably something you wouldn't notice after a decent period of wheel time.

Also worth mentioning that the 98--2000 205s did not share this hull design. The second generation 205 was based on the 1995--1997 190 hull, and that hull on the 205 remained the same throughout its remaining service life.

You guys with the 1998 190s have very nice boats. Go enjoy them. Don't worry about something that happened over 15 years ago. And the first time someone calls it the Death Star 190, tell them someone on Alderan made that crack to you once. :)

rodltg2
02-27-2013, 12:40 PM
I mentioned this in another thread regarding this hull, a top ranked skier trains behind this boat and it did not stop him from placing top 5 at nationals.

captain planet
02-27-2013, 12:42 PM
Did it involve shampoo CP?

Why yes....yes it did! :D

captain planet
02-27-2013, 01:07 PM
That about sums it up. I'll add that, under the right circumstances, you can chine lock/walk any boat. I did it once in my old 205. Weight in the bow, hole shot, relatively shallow water (say 4 feet), an starting into a turn is the magic formula. It's a bit scary if you don't know what it is. All you can do is back off the throttle and wait for the boat to settle down in the water. It's likely that the driver in the boat test was less inclined to do this under the circumstances and didn't have much room to let the boat settle down on a private lake setup anyway. It happens.

The hull design of the 98 190 was such that its arse end was less inclined to plant in the water while underway. The result of this was (1) a fantastic slalom wake and (2) a greater tendency to chine lock/walk. Per one of the AWSA test skiers that year that posted on this forum a couple of years ago, it did it twice and ended up on the beach during the boat tests. The closed quarters on private ski lakes are the scary part of that, and MC could not afford to have it do that in front of a tournament crowd (tournaments had crowds in the late 90s). The safety fix was the winged rudder and the 4th skeg (the additional skeg also helps with tracking). This kept the aft end planted and made the previously exceptional wake less so. The percentage of boats in the wild today without these two add ons is impossibly small. As a result, these boats are probably the least likely boats to chine walk there are. In 1999, the hydrorails became standard equipment to smooth out the wake.

Apart from all of that, the foiled rudder doesn't turn quite so well as a traditional rudder. But this is probably something you wouldn't notice after a decent period of wheel time.

Also worth mentioning that the 98--2000 205s did not share this hull design. The second generation 205 was based on the 1995--1997 190 hull, and that hull on the 205 remained the same throughout its remaining service life.

You guys with the 1998 190s have very nice boats. Go enjoy them. Don't worry about something that happened over 15 years ago. And the first time someone calls it the Death Star 190, tell them someone on Alderan made that crack to you once. :)

Just for fun I googled 'chine lock' and was quickly able to find several mentions of this on other brands of boats as well (Epic, malibu, nautique). And now that these boats are all getting loaded with sacks this is coming up more and more even on wakeboard boats. To say this is limited to the 98 MC is not accurate.....and if you think so, Farmer Ted has some shampoo for you! 8p

http://www.epicmarine.com/forum4/index.php?topic=2044.0

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5638-chine-lock/

post #11 on this one
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/740481.html?1255406806

east tx skier
02-27-2013, 01:38 PM
Just for fun I googled 'chine lock' and was quickly able to find several mentions of this on other brands of boats as well (Epic, malibu, nautique). And now that these boats are all getting loaded with sacks this is coming up more and more even on wakeboard boats. To say this is limited to the 98 MC is not accurate.....and if you think so, Farmer Ted has some shampoo for you! 8p

http://www.epicmarine.com/forum4/index.php?topic=2044.0

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5638-chine-lock/

post #11 on this one
http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/65921/740481.html?1255406806

Since mine was the post quoted, and considering the "you" preceding the invitation to give you a foamy, it should be noted that I cannot tell from your post whether you realize that I said the same thing and underlined it. I followed that statement up with a story about having personally chine walked my old 205.

I'm guessing that you saw all of that and were just emphasizing the point with examples across brands and the rub and scrub invite was intended for people who disagree with our mutual understanding of this common issue.

With that out of the way, I think it is as much of a possibility for any number of the open bow ski boats with human ballast up front as with wakeboard boats, if not more so given their propensity for faster starts in shallower water in a turn.

JohnE
02-27-2013, 02:11 PM
So based on what Doug posted, I'f I were not skiing a tight setup I'd want to forego the winged rudder, no? If the slalom wake is improved and I'm not worried about chine lock why sacrifice the slalom wake? I ski open water frequently and if I course ski we drop at each end.

captain planet
02-27-2013, 02:26 PM
Since mine was the post quoted, and considering the "you" preceding the invitation to give you a foamy, it should be noted that I cannot tell from your post whether you realize that I said the same thing and underlined it. I followed that statement up with a story about having personally chine walked my old 205.

I'm guessing that you saw all of that and were just emphasizing the point with examples across brands and the rub and scrub invite was intended for people who disagree with our mutual understanding of this common issue.

With that out of the way, I think it is as much of a possibility for any number of the open bow ski boats with human ballast up front as with wakeboard boats, if not more so given their propensity for faster starts in shallower water in a turn.

You are correct. My quote was not directed at you, but rather to any reader that is reading the post and thinks this is exclusive to the 98 190. I'm well read on this subject on this board and know where you are with regard to it. My apologies for the inferred direction of my post.

Double D
02-27-2013, 02:27 PM
Since mine was the post quoted, and considering the "you" preceding the invitation to give you a foamy, it should be noted that I cannot tell from your post whether you realize that I said the same thing and underlined it. I followed that statement up with a story about having personally chine walked my old 205.

I'm guessing that you saw all of that and were just emphasizing the point with examples across brands and the rub and scrub invite was intended for people who disagree with our mutual understanding of this common issue.

With that out of the way, I think it is as much of a possibility for any number of the open bow ski boats with human ballast up front as with wakeboard boats, if not more so given their propensity for faster starts in shallower water in a turn.

I think he was trying to say: "Hey, come on, its not just MasterCraft that has this problem, see guys....." :o

captain planet
02-27-2013, 02:28 PM
So based on what Doug posted, I'f I were not skiing a tight setup I'd want to forego the winged rudder, no? If the slalom wake is improved and I'm not worried about chine lock why sacrifice the slalom wake? I ski open water frequently and if I course ski we drop at each end.

As noted, the winged rudder with the angle of the foils parallel/in line with the prop shaft does not effect the wake negatively, but at the same time corrects the possible chine lock.

captain planet
02-27-2013, 02:29 PM
I think he was trying to say: "Hey, come on, its not just MasterCraft that has this problem, see guys....." :o

Correct. And thanks for the endorsement noted in post #33. ;)

Double D
02-27-2013, 02:36 PM
Correct. And thanks for the endorsement noted in post #33. ;)

Darn, that's like the third time... :D Thanks for talking with Zsqure and his new 209 purchase. But this thread was right up your alley, no doubt about it!

The man and his machine!!

captain planet
02-27-2013, 03:26 PM
Darn, that's like the third time... :D Thanks for talking with Zsqure and his new 209 purchase. But this thread was right up your alley, no doubt about it!

The man and his machine!!

No problem, glad to do it. I heard he bought it so you will have to bring him out to Berlin this summer.

Ben
02-27-2013, 03:27 PM
When the boat chine locks is it better to be a left foot or right foot forward skier?

Snipe
02-27-2013, 03:34 PM
What is a "chine lock"? How does the boat react. I've been boating since '64 and have never heard that term. Sure learn a lot form this forum. Thanks to all.

Bouyhead
02-27-2013, 03:46 PM
I mentioned this in another thread regarding this hull, a top ranked skier trains behind this boat and it did not stop him from placing top 5 at nationals.

What division?

captain planet
02-27-2013, 03:59 PM
What is a "chine lock"? How does the boat react. I've been boating since '64 and have never heard that term. Sure learn a lot form this forum. Thanks to all.

I read this as the reason on another forum. When you turn a boat, the boat lists to that side slightly when evenly weighted. If you were to load one side of the boat with weight, when you start to turn to that side while at speed, the boat will list to that side upon initiation of the turn to a greater degree, when that happens the running gear gets shallow in the water and the part of the boat deepest in the water is the chine of the boat (or the side of the boat where it turns up). Since this part of the boat is straight and is deeper in the water than the running gear (rudder, tracking fins) during this condition, the boat will go straight until the boat is brought back flat again and the running gear can take over. The solution is to let off throttle so the boat can settle flat again.

Now, I have no degree in fluid dynamics, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that made sense to me.

If you think about the shape of the bottom of these comp boats compared to runabouts along with the fact that runabouts typically are either i/o or outboard, they have a lot more in the water steering them than an inboard which is why you don't hear about it happening to them.

Is this the reason? I don't know, it is just what I have recently read as to the cause of this condition and until I have more time to research it or read something to the contrary, I'll go with it for the moment.

Snipe
02-27-2013, 04:06 PM
Thanks for the explanation. That actually seems logical. I just have never heard the term before. So now I can file that one away too.

Double D
02-27-2013, 04:14 PM
No problem, glad to do it. I heard he bought it so you will have to bring him out to Berlin this summer.

That all depends on the Pittsburgh Army Corp of Engineers..... :rolleyes:

east tx skier
02-27-2013, 04:18 PM
I read this as the reason on another forum. When you turn a boat, the boat lists to that side slightly when evenly weighted. If you were to load one side of the boat with weight, when you start to turn to that side while at speed, the boat will list to that side upon initiation of the turn to a greater degree, when that happens the running gear gets shallow in the water and the part of the boat deepest in the water is the chine of the boat (or the side of the boat where it turns up). Since this part of the boat is straight and is deeper in the water than the running gear (rudder, tracking fins) during this condition, the boat will go straight until the boat is brought back flat again and the running gear can take over. The solution is to let off throttle so the boat can settle flat again.

Now, I have no degree in fluid dynamics, nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that made sense to me.

If you think about the shape of the bottom of these comp boats compared to runabouts along with the fact that runabouts typically are either i/o or outboard, they have a lot more in the water steering them than an inboard which is why you don't hear about it happening to them.

Is this the reason? I don't know, it is just what I have recently read as to the cause of this condition and until I have more time to research it or read something to the contrary, I'll go with it for the moment.

An easy way to think about it is that when the boat gets pushed onto this pitched forward/sideways position, the chine of the boat, i.e., the surface below the waterline and forward of the propeller and rudder) is the functional equivalent of a control surface, i.e. rudder, except it's not actually under the driver's control. The propeller is still doing its job. So the only way to correct this (since steering is so drastically reduced), is to come off the power.

It's one of those things that sounds unusual, but feels as drastic as it sounds. Kind of like the a combination of banking an airplane and hydroplaning in a car.

/Holiday Inn. Stayed there last night. Have also had a boat do this while I was driving it.

SkiMor
02-27-2013, 04:31 PM
Nice boat Hanse1

captain planet
02-27-2013, 04:50 PM
That all depends on the Pittsburgh Army Corp of Engineers..... :rolleyes:

Berlin came up almost 6" overnight. It is almost as high right now as it was at its highest point all year last year. I had a nightmare the other night that the water was low again this year and we couldn't go boating again. :mad:

Hanse1
02-27-2013, 05:20 PM
The chime lock never even crossed my mind when buying this boat. Not worried about that, the way we ski and drive wont be an issue. Its a great looking and powerful Mastercraft that I cant wait to get out on the water.

TRBenj
02-27-2013, 05:30 PM
An easy way to think about it is that when the boat gets pushed onto this pitched forward/sideways position, the chine of the boat, i.e., the surface below the waterline and forward of the propeller and rudder) is the functional equivalent of a control surface, i.e. rudder, except it's not actually under the driver's control. The propeller is still doing its job. So the only way to correct this (since steering is so drastically reduced), is to come off the power.

It's one of those things that sounds unusual, but feels as drastic as it sounds. Kind of like the a combination of banking an airplane and hydroplaning in a car.

/Holiday Inn. Stayed there last night. Have also had a boat do this while I was driving it.
Uh, Doug, wouldnt that be the keel? The chine is on the side of the boat (the break in the hull that separates the running surface from the hull side).

TRBenj
02-27-2013, 05:35 PM
As noted, the winged rudder with the angle of the foils parallel/in line with the prop shaft does not effect the wake negatively, but at the same time corrects the possible chine lock.
Interesting. I would love to hear the rationale behind that.

My logic (and experience) says that chine lock happens when you get a bit too much weight forward and you loose steering control. I could see the same thing happening if you have too much lift in the rear. Lifting the rear drives the nose down and spreads the weight of the boat over a greater surface area, thereby making the wake smaller. To reverse that, you'd want to draw the rear of the hull lower (raise the nose) thereby making the boat less prone to chine locking. (The angle of the wing on the rudder is consistent with this). This would make the wake slightly larger. In theory, anyways.

captain planet
02-27-2013, 06:18 PM
Interesting. I would love to hear the rationale behind that.

My logic (and experience) says that chine lock happens when you get a bit too much weight forward and you loose steering control. I could see the same thing happening if you have too much lift in the rear. Lifting the rear drives the nose down and spreads the weight of the boat over a greater surface area, thereby making the wake smaller. To reverse that, you'd want to draw the rear of the hull lower (raise the nose) thereby making the boat less prone to chine locking. (The angle of the wing on the rudder is consistent with this). This would make the wake slightly larger. In theory, anyways.

If that were the case, then all comp boats would be prone to chine lock because they are inherently trying to get the stern of the boat up to reduce the wake size.

east tx skier
02-27-2013, 06:20 PM
Uh, Doug, wouldnt that be the keel? The chine is on the side of the boat (the break in the hull that separates the running surface from the hull side).

I think chine refers to any angle in the hull below the waterline (other than the keel). Some boats have more than others. I did not distinguish between the keel because I figured we all knew what that was. The keel is probably in the water allowing the boat to balance on the chine when this happens. As far as positioning, while chine exists all along the boat, it is not important to consider the stuff in the back for purposes of this discussion. But your point is well taken. I have certainly always thought of the chine as the hard chine, break in the hull to which you refer.

Chine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chine_%28boating%29)

east tx skier
02-27-2013, 06:29 PM
If that were the case, then all comp boats would be prone to chine lock because they are inherently trying to get the stern of the boat up to reduce the wake size.

They are; some are more so than others, however.

Plus, it's not just the boat hull shape that makes it more likely to occur.

TRBenj
02-27-2013, 06:41 PM
If that were the case, then all comp boats would be prone to chine lock because they are inherently trying to get the stern of the boat up to reduce the wake size.
Well feel free to enlighten me then.;)

I would agree that all (slalom) boat manufacturers are trying to reduce wake size. They all seem to get there using different methods though. Clearly there is such a thing as allowing the stern to get too light, else MC wouldnt have had to add that wing on the rudder, right?

No one has mentioned the holes they drilled in the rudder... that was part of the PPTS too, right?

east tx skier
02-27-2013, 06:45 PM
No one has mentioned the holes they drilled in the rudder... that was part of the PPTS too, right?

Those are caused by propionibacter shermani, which is one of the three types of bacteria used to make the rudders. It's responsible for the rudder's distinctive holes. Once P. shermani is added to the Nibral mixture and warmed, bubbles of carbon dioxide form. These bubbles become holes in the final product.


:D

Snipe
02-27-2013, 06:56 PM
[QUOTE=east tx skier;911789]Those are caused by propionibacter shermani, which is one of the three types of bacteria used to make the rudders. It's responsible for the rudder's distinctive holes. Once P. shermani is added to the Nibral mixture and warmed, bubbles of carbon dioxide form. These bubbles become holes in the final product.

:uglyhamme:uglyhamme:uglyhamme:uglyhamme:uglyhamme :uglyhamme:uglyhamme:uglyhamme

Table Rocker
02-27-2013, 07:42 PM
I hate that a "check out my beautiful new (to me) boat" thread has turned into a hydrodynamic debate, but...

The wing on the rudder appears to be in either a stern lifting or neutral position (taking into account the angle of the prop).
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=57787&d=1273098126

What we really need to know is "What kind of oil are you putting in her?" That would derail this thing for good.

Rockman
02-27-2013, 07:47 PM
The chime lock never even crossed my mind when buying this boat. Not worried about that, the way we ski and drive wont be an issue. Its a great looking and powerful Mastercraft that I cant wait to get out on the water.

Great looking boat! Maybe we will see you guys on the water sometime this summer when we are up north.

captain planet
02-27-2013, 07:49 PM
Well feel free to enlighten me then.;)

I would agree that all (slalom) boat manufacturers are trying to reduce wake size. They all seem to get there using different methods though. Clearly there is such a thing as allowing the stern to get too light, else MC wouldnt have had to add that wing on the rudder, right?

No one has mentioned the holes they drilled in the rudder... that was part of the PPTS too, right?

Again, I'm not educated in fluid mechanics with respect to hull interaction with water, however I'm really smart and what I have read to this point has lead me to the deduction I have presented.:rolleyes:

captain planet
02-27-2013, 07:51 PM
I hate that a "check out my beautiful new (to me) boat" thread has turned into a hydrodynamic debate, but...

The wing on the rudder appears to be in either a stern lifting or neutral position (taking into account the angle of the prop).
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=57787&d=1273098126

What we really need to know is "What kind of oil are you putting in her?" That would derail this thing for good.

That is the second generation rudder for the 98 as the fins are the same pitch as the prop shaft.

gotta_ski
02-27-2013, 08:06 PM
If that is the second gen winged rudder, does anyone have a pic of the first gen with wings?

sethro
02-27-2013, 08:41 PM
One of my ski buddies had the first generation rudder, and no hydrorails on his 98 with the LT1. That boat had bow rise equivalent to an I/O during the holeshot. It was hard to line up for the slalom course while driving as the bow took so long to settle back down. We are all trick skiers as well, and the rough table from that boat was the worst we had ever skied on without question.

I wonder if the first generation rudder caused the bow rise?

h2oskifreak
02-27-2013, 09:12 PM
I think the 98 Anniversary and the 93's were the best looking MC's of all time. If I didn't want Injection or want the 91-94 hull, a 98 Anniversary was high on my list. Dang, I wish my 94 had some FLAKE.

captain planet
02-27-2013, 10:03 PM
If that is the second gen winged rudder, does anyone have a pic of the first gen with wings?

I can get one the next time I go to the lake. It looks the same as that second generation one, except the fins are flat instead of pitched.

The third generation one also has pitched wings and is slightly wedge shaped. I may put that one on my boat this year. I was told it was an even better improvement from my current rudder.

PT 1999 ProStar
02-27-2013, 10:15 PM
I hate that a "check out my beautiful new (to me) boat" thread has turned into a hydrodynamic debate, but...

The wing on the rudder appears to be in either a stern lifting or neutral position (taking into account the angle of the prop).
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=57787&d=1273098126

What we really need to know is "What kind of oil are you putting in her?" That would derail this thing for good.

OK here's the deal. I didn't know everyone on this forum is a tournament skier! Truth be told the wake behind this boat is no better or worse than a Correct Craft or Malibu. The best wake I've skied behind is a '94 ProStar! But the 99 is perfect how do I know because I have one (or should I say just sold one). I am the farthest thing from a mechanical expert but I've been behind all. I am not a tournament skier but I can ski and I think I have enough experience to comment. I've owned my 99 since 99 and it's been a great boat. My buddies and I have tried to get the chine lock to happened but it never did. Go enjoy your beautiful boat and don't worry about a thing. You have one of the strongest and best pulls on the market. Don't let people on here try to "nickel and dime" your boat!!!

east tx skier
02-27-2013, 11:22 PM
I don't think anyone is "nickle and diming" his boat. But it's a forum, and we tend to discuss things to death. I have suffered through a lot of off topic stuff in the off season. It was nice to finally see some people talking about boats. The first thing I posted on here was a nice compliment on his new boat. The rest, which was in response to other posts was far from derogatory. Truth is, this isn't the first time this topic has come up. But even so, a lot of misinformation gets thrown around. Once upon a time, there was a dealer or two quoted as saying the whole thing was a myth. Better to be factual about it so people understand that there was an issue that was fixed before production was ramped up.

And I'd be willing to bet you are right about never chine locking your 1999. I'd bet that the 98--2000 190, with the additions in place, is probably the hardest boat to chine walk of any of them. I'd bet it would be a lot easier to get an 03 197 to do it.

PT 1999 ProStar
02-27-2013, 11:43 PM
I don't think anyone is "nickle and diming" his boat. But it's a forum, and we tend to discuss things to death. I have suffered through a lot of off topic stuff in the off season. It was nice to finally see some people talking about boats. The first thing I posted on here was a nice compliment on his new boat. The rest, which was in response to other posts was far from derogatory. Truth is, this isn't the first time this topic has come up. But even so, a lot of misinformation gets thrown around. Once upon a time, there was a dealer or two quoted as saying the whole thing was a myth. Better to be factual about it so people understand that there was an issue that was fixed before production was ramped up.

And I'd be willing to bet you are right about never chine locking your 1999. I'd bet that the 98--2000 190, with the additions in place, is probably the hardest boat to chine walk of any of them. I'd bet it would be a lot easier to get an 03 197 to do it.

East I wasn't focusing on you or one person to be honest but more to what you said about this topic being talked about to death and the misinformation that came along with it. When I first bought my boat and the rumors came out I got nervous about what I just purchased. That's all I can relate to this guy. My thought is we all have great boats and we spend a good chunk of money to get them and take care of them. Plus atleast up here in CT summer is just too damn short!!

SKI*MC
02-27-2013, 11:46 PM
Thanks it does have the winged rudder and a 4th fin under it. I am usually out on Lake Nokomis until they drop the water. Then usually on the WI river in town. I ski with the Kwahomot's so spend a lot of time on the river. The trailer is in great shape and has the metal flake fenders.

hey Hanse1 I hope to see you on the lake this year! I have a cabin on Lake Nakomis too, in the little bay between bootleggers and the ice cream shop. If you ever see an 83 red metal flake stars and stripes on the shore stop on by for a beer or set!:toast:

east tx skier
02-28-2013, 12:05 AM
East I wasn't focusing on you or one person to be honest but more to what you said about this topic being talked about to death and the misinformation that came along with it. When I first bought my boat and the rumors came out I got nervous about what I just purchased. That's all I can relate to this guy. My thought is we all have great boats and we spend a good chunk of money to get them and take care of them. Plus atleast up here in CT summer is just too damn short!!

This topic has been talked to death over the course of 10 years on this forum. But every time it comes up, somebody asks and, at the risk of being the bad guy, I am often the one who tries to answer in such a way that they understand what happened as well as the fact that it doesn't mean something is wrong with the boat. It's a fine line and, invariably, can rub people who own these fine boats the wrong way if they don't understand that my intention is not to be derogatory. That's the only reason I mention it.

Fine boats all. Different boats all in subtle ways. Understanding the different components and what they do, particularly on this era of MasterCraft where they served a very specific function is pretty interesting if you ask me.

thatsmrmastercraft
02-28-2013, 12:12 AM
hey Hanse1 I hope to see you on the lake this year! I have a cabin on Lake Nakomis too, in the little bay between bootleggers and the ice cream shop. If you ever see an 83 red metal flake stars and stripes on the shore stop on by for a beer or set!:toast:

Now I'm hungry for a Windmill cone and I'm 200 miles away.:(

jk13
02-28-2013, 12:27 AM
hey Hanse1 I hope to see you on the lake this year! I have a cabin on Lake Nakomis too, in the little bay between bootleggers and the ice cream shop. If you ever see an 83 red metal flake stars and stripes on the shore stop on by for a beer or set!:toast:

Nice! Now we have two great boats to watch for there. My brother is north east of there in a cove on the other side of the biggest island and my friends are in the bay by RR Gator's. We try to get out there a couple times a year.

GoneBoatN
02-28-2013, 12:40 AM
I just purchased a 98 Anniversary boat this weekend. One of the best looking MC's in my opinion and have always wanted one. I have a 91 Barefoot 200 also but will sell that in spring. Before that I had a 84 stars and stripes. Wanted to get back to an inboard, missed the V8 rumble. It has 290 hours on it and in decent shape. There are a couple of stickers that need to be replaced and will do that after the snow is gone. Come on spring!

Nice boat. Congrats! "Decent shape" is a bit of an understatement as the engine looks squeaky clean.

TN Barefooter
02-28-2013, 07:09 AM
I have to admit I've learned a lot on this particular topic reading everyones information. Thanks for enlightening me. By the way, I love the graphics on your new boat.

Snipe
02-28-2013, 07:31 AM
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=90473&stc=1&d=1362050708

I wasn't able to try this yet, so I really don't know how it will perform. With the "wing" parallel to the hull, I'm not sure if that would raise the bow significantly. I sure hope not. Maybe have an effect with the porpoising (sp) that was mentioned before. Similar to those fins guys put on their outboard cavitation plates.???

captain planet
02-28-2013, 07:58 AM
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=90473&stc=1&d=1362050708

I wasn't able to try this yet, so I really don't know how it will perform. With the "wing" parallel to the hull, I'm not sure if that would raise the bow significantly. I sure hope not. Maybe have an effect with the porpoising (sp) that was mentioned before. Similar to those fins guys put on their outboard cavitation plates.???

There isn't a porpoising problem with this hull to my knowledge.

Hard to tell the angle of the wing from that photo. It looks to maybe be flat and not pitched to the prop shaft angle.

captain planet
02-28-2013, 08:10 AM
East I wasn't focusing on you or one person to be honest but more to what you said about this topic being talked about to death and the misinformation that came along with it. When I first bought my boat and the rumors came out I got nervous about what I just purchased. That's all I can relate to this guy. My thought is we all have great boats and we spend a good chunk of money to get them and take care of them. Plus atleast up here in CT summer is just too damn short!!

PT, the reason I chimed in on this is to set the record straight. I know the history behind this hull, what is rumor and what is fact. At the risk of sounding cliche, I'm a truth junky. My goal is to get the truth out when this comes up because I know the facts.

Nice 1999 by the way. I always loved the front deck of that year boat.

mikeg205
02-28-2013, 10:03 AM
I don't think anyone is "nickle and diming" his boat. But it's a forum, and we tend to discuss things to death. I have suffered through a lot of off topic stuff in the off season. It was nice to finally see some people talking about boats. The first thing I posted on here was a nice compliment on his new boat. The rest, which was in response to other posts was far from derogatory. Truth is, this isn't the first time this topic has come up. But even so, a lot of misinformation gets thrown around. Once upon a time, there was a dealer or two quoted as saying the whole thing was a myth. Better to be factual about it so people understand that there was an issue that was fixed before production was ramped up.

And I'd be willing to bet you are right about never chine locking your 1999. I'd bet that the 98--2000 190, with the additions in place, is probably the hardest boat to chine walk of any of them. I'd bet it would be a lot easier to get an 03 197 to do it.

I am with East and CP - bring up a topic on this forum and you will get an abundance of information. This model year of MC, oil, politics, and your favorite Friday libation... will bring out all sides of the story. One thing you can be sure of is that before the thread winds down these topics will be discussed to death as Easty mentions. One thing you can bank on is you will get the truth about any model here in this forum.

You have a cool boat - magnitudes better than this one ;) - I call it the Mali-buoy :D

east tx skier
02-28-2013, 10:22 AM
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=90473&stc=1&d=1362050708

I wasn't able to try this yet, so I really don't know how it will perform. With the "wing" parallel to the hull, I'm not sure if that would raise the bow significantly. I sure hope not. Maybe have an effect with the porpoising (sp) that was mentioned before. Similar to those fins guys put on their outboard cavitation plates.???

This is speculation on my part, but it seems like prop shaft angle has a lot to do (in conjunction with hulll shape) on the boats attitude when it is underway. If the foils on the rudder are at another angle, it would seem that they would be working against the shaft angle. It's probably not terribly noticeable given their size, but it may have been enough to cause MC to change it.

Hanse1
02-28-2013, 10:32 AM
To all on Nokomis message me when you are coming up. We ski a lot over by the dam and in the bay by bootleggers. I pass Radekville, Gators, and Bootleggers beach quite a few times on a Sat or Sun. Will stop in for sure if I see your boat.

captain planet
02-28-2013, 11:10 AM
I am with East and CP - bring up a topic on this forum and you will get an abundance of information. This model year of MC, oil, politics, and your favorite Friday libation... will bring out all sides of the story. One thing you can be sure of is that before the thread winds down these topics will be discussed to death as Easty mentions. One thing you can bank on is you will get the truth about any model here in this forum.

You have a cool boat - magnitudes better than this one ;) - I call it the Mali-buoy :D

Ohh, what happened there?

east tx skier
02-28-2013, 11:34 AM
Yeah, and as much as we all love the early 90s boats, at least one caught on fire.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NoDxtnn3jZo/TgycvuWMIHI/AAAAAAAAECc/ZA_ZVNLWneI/s600/Toasty93.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Dayk-Et9i2w/TgycwgDFeMI/AAAAAAAAECg/Y2CwiT2HREM/s600/ToastyProstar2.jpg

thatsmrmastercraft
02-28-2013, 12:36 PM
Yeah, and as much as we all love the early 90s boats, at least one caught on fire.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NoDxtnn3jZo/TgycvuWMIHI/AAAAAAAAECc/ZA_ZVNLWneI/s600/Toasty93.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Dayk-Et9i2w/TgycwgDFeMI/AAAAAAAAECg/Y2CwiT2HREM/s600/ToastyProstar2.jpg

Yikes:eek3::eek3::eek3:

Sierra Tango II
02-28-2013, 12:47 PM
I just purchased a 98 Anniversary boat this weekend. One of the best looking MC's in my opinion and have always wanted one. I have a 91 Barefoot 200 also but will sell that in spring. Before that I had a 84 stars and stripes. Wanted to get back to an inboard, missed the V8 rumble. It has 290 hours on it and in decent shape. There are a couple of stickers that need to be replaced and will do that after the snow is gone. Come on spring!

Very Beautiful boat. My favorite Mastercraft of all time.

east tx skier
02-28-2013, 12:58 PM
Yikes:eek3::eek3::eek3:

It'll buff out. And what's with that guy and his teak. Take care of that stuff! 8p

thatsmrmastercraft
02-28-2013, 01:01 PM
It'll buff out. And what's with that guy and his teak. Take care of that stuff! 8p

It's all his fault for not straightening the rudder after the boat was on the trailer. :rant:

Table Rocker
02-28-2013, 01:02 PM
It'll buff out. And what's with that guy and his teak. Take care of that stuff! 8p
I was thinking, "Would you compound or wet sand that?"

mikeg205
02-28-2013, 01:13 PM
Ohh, what happened there?

I was told chine lock - but I don't believe it... probably more like driver fail or missing plug... It's an old supreme.... not sure on true history - but was told they were notorious for bad behavior...

Rockman
02-28-2013, 02:00 PM
It'll buff out. And what's with that guy and his teak. Take care of that stuff! 8p

New boat owner got a SMOKIN' deal! :D

Snipe
02-28-2013, 02:34 PM
Wow!! :eek::eek:That hurts..

Lumbergh
02-28-2013, 03:48 PM
Love it!

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr66/Lumbergh556/borat-very-nice.jpg

PT 1999 ProStar
03-01-2013, 02:13 PM
PT, the reason I chimed in on this is to set the record straight. I know the history behind this hull, what is rumor and what is fact. At the risk of sounding cliche, I'm a truth junky. My goal is to get the truth out when this comes up because I know the facts.

Nice 1999 by the way. I always loved the front deck of that year boat.

CP I hear ya bud! I think I was just caught on a cranky night!! I can't deny that this website has givien me help and great advice with issues I've had in the past. Not too mention probably saved me $$ for NOT bringing the boat to the dealership!!

Thanks for the props on the 1999. I love the look too. It actually is getting picked up tomorrow by the new owner to enjoy! They will be getting a great boat!

Traxx822
03-02-2013, 11:31 AM
Wow nice boat

Bouyhead
03-02-2013, 11:53 AM
OK, to set the record straight. The finned rudder was the correction for the chime lock. The 4th fin was to improve tracking (I've never seen even a photo of a 98 that doesn't have 4 fins), the hydra rails were to soften the wake, and changing the wing angle on the rudder in 99 was prevent prop wash from being deflected back up into the wake. The 'safety issue' isn't there unless you have a 98 that has no fins on the rudder.

Over 700 hours on my boat with its fair share of slalom pulls and tight turns has yet to lock up on me. I've tried to get my boat to do it and can't. I wanted to see what happens so I know how to correct it. I've also talked with the guy that was driving the 98 when it did it and I don't think he was able to get it to do it again either.

I think Farmer Ted made a famous statement about shampoo on here once regarding this.

Thanks for setting the record straight, just seems to clarify the original debate that this hull needed multiple " fixes" to get it right and were not talking about taking a little bit off the rudder.This hull vintage has long been dismissed amongst most folks in the tournament scene but that doesn't make it a bad boat for the other 98% Same MC quality, same MC looks, boat just came up way short on performance compared to previous years. No doubt you and Hanse1 have absolutely stunning looking boats, probably the best looking boats MC produced in the nineties. I guess I just look at boats purely from a slalom perspective. So just like the 94 will go down as an epic slalom boat, the 98-01 will go down as an O.K. slalom boat shampoo or no shampoo.

JBBond3007
02-21-2014, 02:01 PM
That was the mod the did to try and get rid of the rooster tail at 22-28 off.

atihanyi
02-21-2014, 08:27 PM
Gorgeous boat! That is still one of the best looking MC's ever built IMHO.

Congrats!

I agree:cool: