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Scot
01-30-2013, 11:19 PM
Finally time to tackle an issue I was having last season. Some of you may have seen my stringer thread last year. I bought the boat one year ago, tore it down and got it done by summer only to get to use it a handful of times due to some family circumstances. The times I did have it on the water I was working out bugs and got all but one figured out.

On hard takeoffs as well as hard turns the transmission seems to be slipping. The engine runs great, no hesitation, just revs without full engagement. Prop is tight, key is intact. A friend of mine that owns a local boat shop claims that these transmissions "don't really slip, " which I find hard to believe.

I do know that it leaks fluid and have yet to track/fix that. The issue persists even though I have topped off any lost fluid each time.

I know my boat pretty well inside and out, except for whats inside that little box between the motor and shaft. Pretty sure I could handle a rebuild so long as it doesnt require any crazy specialized tools. Anybody have any insight as to the cause?

Thanks,
Scot

Scot
01-30-2013, 11:24 PM
Forgot to mention, its a powerslot.

willyt
01-31-2013, 09:46 AM
it can definitely slip if the tranny fluid is low, but it sounds like, if it only does it in hard turns, that you're experiencing cavitation.

what kind of boat do you have? some are more prone to it than others, i only experienced it once on my 05 X2, but my 07 star seems to love to cavitate. I've heard the 5 blade doesnt allow as much cavitation.

TRBenj
01-31-2013, 10:36 AM
The can also slip if the clutch plates are worn. Low fluid in a tranny on its way out can cause slipping or even pop out of gear- but thats not the only thing that will cause it. Combined with the leak youre seeing, I'd say its rebuild time.

PureInboards
01-31-2013, 01:41 PM
Last thing you want to do is re-build for no reason but best thing to do is pull the dipstick and smell the oil, if smells like its burn't there is a pretty good chance the clutch packs are slipping but defiantly check out possible cavitation first and even try another known good prop just in case the prop has been repaired/modified during its life

Kyle
01-31-2013, 04:24 PM
Ebasicpower.com is where I got my rebuild kit from. I think it is the cheapest place to get a master rebuild kit.

When I did mine I assembled everything and had the same problem. My clutches were worn and needed replacing but my front pump was bad. So I had to remove the tranny and put a pump in. It worked very well after that.

Scot
02-07-2013, 11:38 PM
Any advice on whether it is worth swapping from a powerslot to a 1:1 velvet drive? Longer shaft needed?

I have owned and driven many ski boats in my day and have never had an issue with a 1:1 lacking low end power. The powerslot seems unnecessarily low geared. Top speed is just about 40 MPH and I would rather have a little more top end and better fuel economy. Maybe my problem is due to wear? Can I get the same top end performance with a fresh tranny and a different prop? Not looking to race or anything, just want a little better fuel economy at 36+ and more at WOT than 40-.

Scot
02-07-2013, 11:42 PM
BTW, definitely not cavitation. It does this out of the hole, when everything is in the water. When I say hard turns I mean moderately hard turns. I know how to make these things cavitate if I want to, its definitely not happening. Gotta be the tranny.

Ajborel@msn.com
02-08-2013, 09:38 AM
Reason for slipping either low pressure or worn clutch plates low pressure can be caused by low fluid or leak I and a leak in my coolent line internally then leaked out the casing of the hose in a hard to place once the tranny starts slipping you are wearing the clutch plates excessively if it were me I would find the leak and rebuild

Scot
02-11-2013, 11:47 PM
Is pump replacement considered a typical part of a rebuild?

lanep82
02-12-2013, 08:44 AM
Check your temp also. I thought mine was slipping last summer but ended up just having some junk in the intake from underneith the boat (never beaching boat again) which was causing the temp to heat up and therefore at high RPMs or when the boat was 'working' hard, it felt like slipping.

gotta_ski
02-12-2013, 03:50 PM
I've seen them slip when they had water in the tranny from the boat being partially sunk. (Thankfully not my boat) We changed the fluid, ran it for an hour, then changed it again. The slipping went away. I think my buddy got lucky on this one though.

Kyle
02-12-2013, 10:00 PM
Is pump replacement considered a typical part of a rebuild?

Generally no. And ebasicpower told me that. BUT I rebuilt mine and it did the same thing as it did before. I had to remove tranny again and put a pump in. That fixed it.

I am glad though that I replaced the internals with the rebuild kit. I was easy and gives me peace of mind. Also I found a clutch that was missing a steel plate in the tranny. It came from the factory built wrong. I know 100% that no one had been in mine previously as well.

I would replace your pump.


It is not worth going to a 1:1 stay with a slot.

Save your change and buy heads, cam, and intake. I am rolling 47 mph with a slot after my engine mods. It is much stronger than the factory 285 1:1 boats. I drive RiverRat's 205 with 285 and 1:1. My slot pulls much harder. Top end they are pretty much the same.

Kevin 89MC
02-13-2013, 04:32 PM
FWIW, when I first got my boat, the trans started slipping one day, mainly in turns and starting out. Noticed I was a bit low on fluid. Filled it up, that cured it, then happened again a few weeks later. Took it to the shop (before I got into wrenching), they found that the seal around where the shift linkage goes into the trans had a small leak. Got it fixed, had them put new clutch pack in (existing ones were about half worn out), no problems after that. Just another spot to check for leaking in case anyone else has this issue.
Good luck,
Kevin

Scot
02-15-2013, 11:11 PM
FWIW, when I first got my boat, the trans started slipping one day, mainly in turns and starting out. Noticed I was a bit low on fluid. Filled it up, that cured it, then happened again a few weeks later. Took it to the shop (before I got into wrenching), they found that the seal around where the shift linkage goes into the trans had a small leak. Got it fixed, had them put new clutch pack in (existing ones were about half worn out), no problems after that. Just another spot to check for leaking in case anyone else has this issue.
Good luck,
Kevin

Again, I am mechanical but not much of a transmission guy (tranny guy just doesnt sound right). Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt doing clutch packs basically pulling the tranny and doing an overhaul?

I am contemplating whether to do it myself or not. It looks fairly simple if you have a manual. My only concern is pulling the thing. It looks way too heavy to pull by hand and I dont have an overhead pulley system. How hard is it to get out? And what about installation, is alignment a big issue?

Scot
02-15-2013, 11:17 PM
I would replace your pump.


It is not worth going to a 1:1 stay with a slot.

Save your change and buy heads, cam, and intake. I am rolling 47 mph with a slot after my engine mods. It is much stronger than the factory 285 1:1 boats. I drive RiverRat's 205 with 285 and 1:1. My slot pulls much harder. Top end they are pretty much the same.

Thanks for the advice, that is what I wanted to hear. Engine mods will be down the road. Do you remember what cam you used? I want good top end without losing much down low.

On a related note, I have always thought it would be fun to build a full on race motor for a tournament boat. You know, if I had a lot of extra cash to do foolish stuff with, just for fun. Anybody ever seen that? Curious what kind of high speed performance you can get out of these boats. As long as I have one to ski with first.

Kyle
02-16-2013, 09:11 AM
First off a race motor would probably not be a good idea. I don't think that these boats would handle high speeds. I hear that after 50 they become a little scary and dance around.


Ok for tranny questions.

1) you don't need an overhead system. It is only 150-200#.

2) once you remove the electrical and the prop couplers are separated you can remove the tranny mounts from the stringer. You should be able to pick up on the tailshaft of the tranny rotate the engine level. Put some 2x4 blocks under the oil pan to keep the tranny up. At this point the tranny should only be 1" or so from the stringer. Unbolt it and slide her back.

3) get a friend or what I did was a come a long to the rafter of my storage facility and made a harness and picked it up. I had no extra help and it is not worth dropping it trying to man handle it. You will be able to pick it up but it is just easier to hoist it out or have someone help you (not the wife it gets heavy and you don't want to drop it)

4) I have a manual if you need instructions. I can scan to a PDF.

5) the pump can go on 180* backwards. Mark the pump and the bell inner housing so you know how it lines back up or how the new one should go in.

6) remove the pump and o ring

7) remove the first part of the case of tranny. Pull out all clutches that are big. This is the reverse clutches.

8) keep digging deeper and a hole clutch assembly will come out.


It is not hard but I recommend instructions. I am very mechanically inclined and I used the instructions. There are some clips in the rebuild kit that are certain thickness and need to go in the correct places.

You can either take your time and do it yourself or once it's out you can drop it off at a tranny shop. Either way.

Kyle
02-16-2013, 09:17 AM
I have the cam card and all specs when you need them.

Some people will tell you go bigger than a factory 285 HO cam.

Mine is the factory indmar 285hp cam, Edlebrock performer intake with 1" spacer, gt40p heads.

If you can afford to, I would remove both engine and tranny now.

Rebuild the tranny.

Send engine off to have it freshened and when you get the rotating assembly back bolt on the new parts.

Iirc I did phntmski in my friends list. Machine shop and all parts was in the 2,500-3k ballpark.

It will save you from having to remove tranny twice.

Scot
02-18-2013, 10:50 PM
Ebasicpower.com is where I got my rebuild kit from. I think it is the cheapest place to get a master rebuild kit.

When I did mine I assembled everything and had the same problem. My clutches were worn and needed replacing but my front pump was bad. So I had to remove the tranny and put a pump in. It worked very well after that.

Kyle, what is included in the typical master rebuild kit and what else might I need? I am finding seperate kits with snap rings, clutch plates, etc, and I am confused. I would think I want all of these things for my rebuild, right? I am also planning on replacing the pump, damper, and cooler as it seems like the thing to do, right? Thanks for all your help!

Planning on pulling this thing on Thurs. this week and digging in as soon as I get parts. Also, that manual would be very helpful as I wont touch anything inside until I have one.

Kyle
02-19-2013, 03:05 AM
Let me scan a manual for you first

No need to replace the cooler. Those either leak or don't leak. If its not leaking then its prolly fine. How old is your cooler? The damper prolly is fine too. Mine is the factory damper. No need to replace that unless you just have severe MCOCD.


The pump is the pump.


The kit comes with all plates and clutches. It also includes all gaskets, seals, snap rings.

Here is what I would do. Print out the manual and put it in a binder.

Dissassemble the tranny over the weekend. Mark the pump so that when you install the new pump it will be in the correct position. If you install it 180* off then forward will be reverse and reverse will be forward. This means removal again to loosen 4 bolts, spin a pump 180* and re tighten. Just take a sharpie and mark the pump case to inner bell housing so you know how to reinstall. It's not hard.

Once you get the clutches out and everything apart look at the book and note any broken or worn out pieces.

Order the kit and extra pieces that may need replacing. There is a washer and some brass pieces that I replaced that were not in the kit.



Now after you have this dissembled get on

Www.ebasicpower.com

They have the same kits as everyone else for less money. They have the kit break down of what is included. They also have a piece by piece way of ordering too.

They are online only so not great if you want someone to hold your hand through customer service hence cheaper prices.

Order kit, pump, extra parts if need be (I broke a spring clip during disassembly so wait to order until it is apart, I had 2 orders and shipping due to that clip that was .50 and $5 to ship)

Kit will come fast

Reassemble and go down the road.

I did this on my garage floor. A bench would have been very nice but I didn't have one and it sucked. I left the entire tranny internals in order as I pulled them out (different gears, clutch sections, and casings). Waited for my 2 shipments and put it together.

It is not brain surgery.

If you need to take off a section or piece and label a zip lock Baggie of bolts then do that.

I normally throw everything in a bucket and remember what bolt went where.

The manual will label every piece and show you how to assemble it. If you can read and follow directions then I'm sure you can DIY.

Kyle
02-19-2013, 03:14 AM
Another tip.

After getting the tranny mounts unbolted from stringer, wiring harness removed, shaft coupler separated etc

Get a strap or rope. Put it under the tranny tail shaft and pick up. The tranny and engine will move or rotate toward the pylon of your boat. Meaning the angle if the engine will become level. Grab a kid or wife or neighbor and have them tie a rope from the pylon to the exhaust risers. It won't be too heavy. Secure the angle to where the tranny is like 1" away from the stringer.

Remove bell housing bolts and the ground. There are (2) 1/2" or 7/16" bolts under the bell housing near the starter that you will have to remove as well. Slide tranny straight back. She is now out.

Kyle
02-19-2013, 03:26 AM
This pic demonstrates the amount of pressure that's on the rafter and the exhaust riser to keep the engine somewhat more level and to where when you slide the tranny back the engine doesn't fall back further.

I would just loop the riser and have someone make a few turns around the pylon while you lift the tail shaft up. After finding desired height then tie it off.

Doing it this way will greatly assist you on reassembly. You can raise and lower the engine pitch to the transmission input shaft.

90162
90163

If you have questions please ask. Slot or non slot it won't matter. I've been in both. The only difference is one has a reduction gear and the other doesn't.

CantRepeat
02-19-2013, 01:17 PM
All the manuals are in this post.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=32581

Kyle
02-19-2013, 05:01 PM
Here is my downloaded shop manual for


71C-72C Direct Drive and Reduction Ratios

1.5:1, 1.88:1, 1.91:1, 2.1:1, 2.57:1, 2.91:1

Kyle
02-19-2013, 05:02 PM
Ok file is too big for forum. I can email it to a MOD to get it put on here. I am a computer dummy and do not know how to compress a file.


SORRY

Scot
02-19-2013, 11:55 PM
Ok file is too big for forum. I can email it to a MOD to get it put on here. I am a computer dummy and do not know how to compress a file.


SORRY

No problem. Thanks Kyle. Got everything loosened and ready to pull when I get a hand. Kit is in the mail. Next I will order the pump. Replacing the cooler too just to be safe. Could have been leaking, not sure. I would guess that the main symptom would be loss of trans fluid? Assuming the pressure of the trans fluid pushes it into the water circulation? As long as the damper looks okay its staying.

Motor project will be for another year. Still running pretty strong and the season starts in a few weeks here in AZ.

Kyle
02-20-2013, 02:35 AM
I completely understand. Good luck with your project. Try to take some pics so that the next guy can learn from you. Never hurts to pass on some knowledge.

The tranny should have had water in it if it was leaking through the cooler. When you dissemble it you will be able to tell for sure.

Where did you order your kit from? Just curious.

Hope everything goes smooth. If something crazy happens just ask.

Good luck on the project.

CantRepeat
02-20-2013, 07:58 AM
You may need a couple of special tools to do the rebuild. When I did mine I just made them.

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=41338&highlight=tool

Scot
02-20-2013, 11:28 PM
Got the kit from ebasicpower.com. Found a few others at the same price, but at least I have positive reviews of this one. I will order the pump from michiganmotorz.com because it is about 60 bucks cheaper.

CantRepeat
02-21-2013, 07:12 AM
Kyle, you didn't need to do anything to the gear reduction box when you did your rebuild, did you? It's just gears so maybe the output seal?

Scot
02-21-2013, 11:39 PM
Its out and on my garage floor. Bellhousing and pump are off. Will wait to go further, parts should get here monday.

PS Kyle I found a manual, thanks again for your efforts.

FrankSchwab
02-21-2013, 11:44 PM
The tranny should have had water in it if it was leaking through the cooler.

Not always true. My cooler was leaking pretty seriously, but (as far as I can tell) didn't suck any water into the transmission - just pumped fluid out. Doesn't make much sense to me, but that's the way it was.

/frank

Scot
02-22-2013, 11:40 PM
Kyle,

I lied, I started digging into this thing before my parts got here. Too eager to see what's inside. Got the whole clutch assembly out, but I am fighting with snap rings. My snap ring pliers arent doing the trick. Any tips? Trying not to fight them too much and ruin them. Am I being too careful?

Scot
02-23-2013, 12:56 AM
alright got them loose. Definitely destroyed one. Hope they are sold individualy. Was able to "walk" most of them off with a screwdriver. The others all still look good.

Kyle
02-23-2013, 03:00 AM
Kyle, you didn't need to do anything to the gear reduction box when you did your rebuild, did you? It's just gears so maybe the output seal?

I just put the out put or tail shaft seal in. Didnt do anything with the gears.

Kyle
02-23-2013, 03:07 AM
Frank

That is very weird that it created a syphon and would draw fluid out without getting water inside.

I guess anything can be possible.

Kyle
02-23-2013, 03:09 AM
Kyle,

I lied, I started digging into this thing before my parts got here. Too eager to see what's inside. Got the whole clutch assembly out, but I am fighting with snap rings. My snap ring pliers arent doing the trick. Any tips? Trying not to fight them too much and ruin them. Am I being too careful?

The snap rings are thick and pretty big.

My snap ring pliers are made by snap-on tools. I didn't have a problem with them, but I would recommend maybe trying to find a decent pair so when you go back together you can safely install the new rings without damaging them.


Also there is a real thick one that needs to removed around the drive clutches. I destroyed it getting it off. My snap ring pliers would not separate the ring. Lots of prying and twisting got it loose.

That was a piece that I had to order before reinstalling the internals.


Take some pics of your project.


How are the reverse clutches and plates? Are they worn bad or warped by chance?

Scot
02-24-2013, 11:55 PM
90296

90297

90298

90299

90300

Scot
02-25-2013, 12:03 AM
Reverse clutches look good to me. So does the pump, smooth as can be inside, but I sure would hate to put it all back together only to pull the tranny again. I think my main problem was fluid loss. No water in the tranny, not sure where it leaked. At least I will feel better with new clutches I guess. Still hoping to find the forward clutches torn to shreds but we will see. I posted the snap ring I ruined. Looks like I didnt even actually have to remove that one though now? It goes in front of the bearing on the input shaft. I am thinking there is not much more disassmebly needed at this point right? The planetary gear has sealing rings, but other than that, I dont see a reason to go any further, am I wrong? The shift selector, any reason to take it apart?

Scot
02-25-2013, 12:09 AM
I am guessing fluid flows freely to the reduction gears, maybe I am losing fluid through the back? Should my overhaul kit have seals for the output shaft?

Kyle
02-25-2013, 10:16 AM
The pump can wear out and look perfectly fine.

Basically the gaps in the pump wear and low rpm pressure is a problem. Then bring up the rpm and it slams into gear. Both in forward and reverse.



How much fluid came out of it? How much hit the floor?

I would clean the selector mechanism.

I would also take the bottom hose off and clean the screen filter in the bottom hose fitting.

Scot
02-26-2013, 12:29 AM
Not much fluid. But again fluid loss was my main problem. Couldnt trace it and I figured it had been happening for a while so I thats why I decided an overhaul was in order. I bought this boat last year, pulled the motor, stripped the hull and replaced stringers, only got to put a few hours on it last season.

Looked at the forward clutches today. They look worn, not destroyed but ready to go in my uneducated opinion.

Getting ready to go back together soon. The shaft/forward clutch/piston assembly has me contemplating options as I dont have a shop press:

1. Go buy a 12 ton shop press from Harbor freight, hoping I can disassemble and reassemble it myself. (Only $129 and nice to have anyway)

2. See if a shop will do it for me for cheap

3. Leave it as is since it looks like there is only one o-ring and one sealing ring that would be replaced in this process.

Thoughts?

Also, is it worth pulling the reduction unit? Looks like I would basically be doing that just to replace the gasket, I didnt see any other seals I would gain access to by pulling it. Not sure if I will be making a lot of extra work by opening it up.

thatsmrmastercraft
02-26-2013, 09:29 AM
I wouldn't short-cut o-rings and seals at this point. A virtual guarantee that if left as is, you will be pulling this apart to replace these parts at an inconvenient time. As far as the press goes, I see the temptation to go with the Harbor Freight since the price isn't bad. You might get the press work done cheaply at a local marine shop.

Scot
02-26-2013, 11:49 PM
Yeah, I know, just needed someone else to say it.

I think I found a press I can use.

Scot
02-28-2013, 12:14 AM
I am now putting the clutch pack back together. I hope the issue I am about to ask about is normal and does not mean my ring gear is worn out. After placing all plates in the ring gear there is a snap ring that goes in front of the front pressure plate.

On mine, this ring does not snap into place tightly at all. When I put it in I can still pull the plates back out by hand. Looking at the ring gear the groove for this snap ring is so shallow it would hardly hold any snap ring in place firmly. However, I am not sure this matters. The outside of the dished spring would ride against this snap ring, so it seems like that should be holding it in place. Please tell me this is how it is supposed to be. If I need a new ring gear I shouldve just gone with a new tranny!

Its the top one here

Scot
02-28-2013, 01:14 AM
also, on the other side of the clutch pack, where there is supposed to be a snap ring for setting clutch clearance, there was nothing. Is that normal?

Kyle
02-28-2013, 09:57 AM
It's been a while for me.

Remove everything out of the ring gear and take a real close up pic of where the clutches go.

Iirc the pressure plate that's a spring built inside of it and you must compress everything.


I seriously doubt that you need a new ring gear.



Take a pic of both sides of the snap ring as well. Is one side dished and the other flat? Both flat?

Kyle
02-28-2013, 01:26 PM
Scot

I have been through all of the service manuals on the thread posted by Tim Cantrepeat.

Ok while those manuals will be very helpful my manual that is too big to post is much simpler to understand.

Instructions copied word by word from my manual.

Step 5: Put the first pressure plate in the ring gear.

Step 6: starting with a friction clutch plate alternately stack friction clutch plates and steel clutch plates. Place pressure plate on top of the clutch plates.

Step 7: Install clutch plates and pnd pressure plates in ring gear.

Step 8: Install snap ring in ring gear

CAUTION: Several different snap rings are used to assemble the clutch group. They have different thicknesses. Be sure the correct snap ring is used

Step 9: Lubricate O-ring lightly with vasoline and install in groove of forward clutch cylinder

Step 10: Lubricate clutch spring bearing ring and piston sealing ring with vasoline.

Install clutch spring bearing ring in groove of piston

Install piston sealing ring in outer groove of piston

NOTE: Checkk that piston sealing ring is not twisted, cut, or deformed. Replace if damaged.

Step 11: Install piston in forward clutch cylinder

Step 12: Place clutch belleville (dish) spring inside rim of forward clutch. Spring is dished. The inside of the spring should be lower than the outside.

Kyle
02-28-2013, 01:28 PM
Here are some shop manual pics

90483
90484
90485
90486
90487

Hope this helps

Kyle
02-28-2013, 01:33 PM
90488

CantRepeat
02-28-2013, 02:41 PM
Um, I'm not sure where I read this but I soak my friction disk in trans fluid overnight before I did the assembly. I did, however, install them dry to check the clearance for the snap ring.

thatsmrmastercraft
02-28-2013, 03:49 PM
Um, I'm not sure where I read this but I soak my friction disk in trans fluid over night before I did the assembly. I did, however, install them dry to check the clearance for the snap ring.

We used to do that with automotive transmissions years ago when I did that kind of work. Keeps the frictions discs from premature wear if operated dry.

Scot
03-01-2013, 10:50 PM
Thanks for the input guys. I called Basic Power today and spoke with the tech. He told me the particular snap ring does not need to snap firmly into place since the spring rides against it. This is what I was hoping to hear, but wanted to be sure. He also said that the snap rings on the backside of the clutch assembly (the ones to set clearance) were not used on the 10-17. Thats the first I have heard of that as everyone seems to advocate carefully checking clearance. He said just put it back together and I should be good to go. Since there were no snap rings there when I took it apart I will take his word. This is the second time I have spoken with him and he seems to know these things well.

So I have the clutch/ring gear assembled, gaskets and seals replaced on the reduction unit, and ready to go once I get the following: a new snap ring for the input shaft/front bearing, a cooler, a set of reverse springs since I lost one in disassembly, and a new oil baffle. I am replacing the baffle because the old one had a main tab that was ready to break off and I dont want loose metal flopping around in this thing. I also replaced the stupid $30 coupling nut because the book says I should. Hope to drop it in next week.

thatsmrmastercraft
03-01-2013, 10:55 PM
Progress is almost always good, but seldom cheap.

Kyle
03-02-2013, 12:18 AM
Sounds like its going together.

Now you see why I say order everything after it is disassembled. I had to go through a few orders and when you are waiting on parts then everything gets put on hold.


If I were you I would be putting a pump in it now too. Yes they are not cheap but not worth the money of having to remove the tranny a second time.

I'm sure you are saving tons of cash and are hopefully enjoying a few beers along with a fun project.

Scot
03-02-2013, 12:37 AM
I'm into it just under $600 so far, much better than the lowest price I got of $1200 just for the basic overhaul on the bench (I pull it).

What I have purchased (prices include shipping)

169.95 Overhaul kit from Basic Power
114.17 Oil Cooler from Michigan Motors
179.40 Pump from Michigan Motors
14.95 new cable clip on eBay (old one was rusted/seized)
45.90 new coupling nut and snap ring, Basic Power(wrong snap ring, book says use new nut)
67.20 snap ring and springs (right snap ring, wanted to change all springs if I change one)

Kyle, I took your advice and changed the pump. I would hate to put it back together just to pull it apart again.

Scot
03-04-2013, 12:54 AM
A few more issues I need to tackle during this installation.

Alignment is the big one. After my stringer project I had my local marine shop drop the motor back in and "align" it. I use quotations because it took two hands to turn the prop. I downloaded a list of instructions posted on here and written by a guy named Ken that seems to be pretty well written. I think I should probably run through his whole process of aligning motor to strut and then motor to shaft. Probably should pull the shaft and do strut bushings too.

One thing leads to another right?

Also considering packing issues. Three options: 1) good old repack 2) Gore Tex repack- cheap and as long as it doesnt wear out my shaft worth a shot 3) dripless system. How nice to keep water out of the bilge altogether. It seems they are pretty sensitive to misalignment? Maybe not a good idea for a boat rebuilt from the ground up by one guy who is an optometrist by day and backyard hillbilly mechanic by night?:D

Scot
03-06-2013, 12:25 AM
Been fighting all night with the shaft. First the prop was stuck on like crazy. And it was off last season. It took a puller, heat, and a hammer on the puller to finally get it off. The coupler is another story. I got it to budge about 1/16" and broke two pullers in the process. Seriously considering taking a saw to the shaft and ordering a new one. It is definitely worn at the packing and at the strut. I will buy the biggest jaw puller I can find tomorrow and give it another shot. If I can get it apart I will definitely take it to a machine shop and have it checked for runout. As I said, one thing leads to another. Seems like the time to do it though.

Kyle
03-06-2013, 01:39 AM
There is no need to buy a puller for the coupler and shaft.


Take the nut off of the shaft.

Put a socket between the two couplers.

Put the coupler bolts back on both coupler sides.

Tighten the two couplers together and the shaft will press out of the shaft coupler.



Now you may have to use a shallow socket and move to a deep socket to finally get the shaft free but I know it will work. Maybe heat the coupler if needed and wear se good gloves.


I have always removed the couplers this way. It works and saves money on a tool that will break or never be used again.

TRBenj
03-06-2013, 09:36 AM
Do what Kyle said and press the coupler off the shaft... that is the proper way to do it.

If the puller you used bent the flange of the coupler, or if you have serious (measurable) wear on the shaft, then consider replacing the whole thing with a dual taper ARE.

Hopefully the tranny rebuild works out for you. Most people end up goofing something up (there seem to be a few tricks not covered in the manual) and end up pulling the trans a second time for a professional rebuild. That should only cost in the $700-800 range, so that $1200 quote you got is way out of bed.

Scot
03-06-2013, 11:47 PM
I wont know until its back in, but it seems there is little to goof up on this 10-17. Pretty straight forward.

Got the shaft pulled, thanks for the tip Kyle. I can feel grooves where the strut bearings and packing rode, is there a runout tolerance or does that give me my answer?

Also, I would hate to put this all back together with a bad strut. Mine seems to be cocked a little by eyeballing, but hard to tell. Whats the proper way to check it?

What is the advantage of a dual taper shaft? I am looking for the way to get it back to normal with as little out of pocket as possible. Any tips on where to shop?

Scot
03-07-2013, 12:41 AM
Shaft is riding on the bottom of the shaft log. Has worn a groove into it. Pretty sure this means a strut problem.

The video on youtube of the correct craft guy explaining alignment is awesome. He mentions re-aligning a bent strut with side to side movement or spacers and 5200 or epoxy. Gonna try this before spending hundreds of dollars on a strut. Also considering putting a pipe wrench on it with a jack to see if I can bend it back somewhat so less movement is needed.

As for the shaft, I am guessing it will have to go with its wear, considering the misalignment. Im sure it will not fit nice and tight even with new bushings.

Scot
03-07-2013, 12:54 AM
regarding the shaft....

If it is straight and the grooves are the only problem, can it somehow be "filled" and then turned down?

or am I living in dream world and need to suck it up and buy a new one?

pretty sure I know my answer since its stainless steel

Scot
03-07-2013, 01:12 AM
Hopefully the tranny rebuild works out for you. Most people end up goofing something up (there seem to be a few tricks not covered in the manual) and end up pulling the trans a second time for a professional rebuild. That should only cost in the $700-800 range, so that $1200 quote you got is way out of bed.

Any insight as to what these tips may be? It seems like the clutch pack is the only place you can possibly screw up. And I have been assured by a few techs that there is no clearance to set on the older 10-17's, put it together and it will work. But it's not together yet (waiting for the UPS man still), there's still time.

TRBenj
03-07-2013, 10:03 AM
Nope... which is why I send my trannies out when they need a rebuild! Its about the only thing I wont touch on my boats. The cost difference ($300 max) between the parts alone vs. paying for someone to do the whole thing for me isnt enough to take the risk, IMHO. I know several people who did their own, thought they were A-OK and ended up having a super dirty neutral, or some other issue after getting back on the water. It seems there is a little more to it than whats stated in the manual, at least thats my impression.

I would say that shaft is junk if you can feel the grooves with your fingernail. The new dual tapers are no more expensive than the single tapers, and ARE uses a pretty high grade of stainless. The primary advantage of the dual taper is the ease of installation... rather than a press fit (involving heat/cold and quick action to install) the coupler end is keyed and tapered and held on with a nut (just like the prop).

Pete's video is pretty good from what I hear. Alignment is not that difficult if you understand the concept. Unless you can straighten that strut on the boat, it has to come off. I'd straighten it (off the boat) as best you can without damaging it, and then go through the process of aligning it to the shaft log. Some careful grinding on the strut base can help the front/aft angle sit better (as opposed to shimming alone). Get it all fit properly dry, then bed it in 5200. Once the strut and shaft are all back in, then align your powertrain to the shaft.

Kyle
03-07-2013, 11:14 AM
This is where two guys start to disagree slightly. TRBenj knows his stuff and has a lot of knowledge but doesn't like fooling with tranny's. I too do not like fooling with them particularly but rebuilt my own. I never once felt like it wouldn't work. If I had one of my club members boats start having tranny problems then I feel confident enough to rebuild their tranny. I do not see the need to pay someone else if you follow the manual to the T. My manual is also different than any if the manuals you have seen online in this thread. Mine is step by step on every single piece. The manual makes it dummy proof and that is exactly what I needed.

I took my time and made sure every piece came out in the order that the book called for. The snap rings and different sealing rings that go on the shafts were also noted in order. Everything has a different thickness and my shop manual hits on the different thickness and size rings. I also use calipers on my ski so I double checked everything before install.

Iirc there is no way to adjust the clutches and the tech that you talked to is correct.

Scot, I would keep going and not sweat it. No need to have not needed stress at this point in the project. I'm pretty sure if you followed the directions to the T the you will be just fine. That tranny is very hard to tear up. It is very durable.




Ok the shaft. Remind me what year boat again. I know where a good slot shaft is that is true. If your set up will take this shaft I'll see if this member will be willing to part with it. I'm positive that it will be a ton cheaper than a new one. The new member bought a new strut and shaft and installed them and found out the old shaft was just fine bit has been to a machine shop and verified true.

Also on the shaft

I would fully remove it and see if it is straight.

Have you ever thought about going to a dripless shaft seal. I think that when you install the shaft and a dripless seal that the mating surface of the seals are in different locations on the shaft. Therefore you may be able to get away with using Emory cloth on the shaft to clean it up and installing a dripless system that seals in a new non grooved place on the shaft. Just an idea.

Scot
03-07-2013, 12:39 PM
Kyle, its a 1981. Shaft is 1 1/8" and 42" long to the end of the threads.

No major bends noted by rolling it across a flat surface. As for the grooves the ones that concern me more are the ones at the strut. The shaft didn't drip excessively before so I think with new packing it would be fine.

Thanks for the encouragement. Like I said, seems like its going fine. Reassembly tonight if the UPS man shows up.

I want to get this stut alignment figured out before dropping it back in. Hope I can tweak it enough with some grinding/shimming, etc to line up. It's WAY off.

Kyle
03-07-2013, 02:10 PM
Kyle, its a 1981. Shaft is 1 1/8" and 42" long to the end of the threads.

No major bends noted by rolling it across a flat surface. As for the grooves the ones that concern me more are the ones at the strut. The shaft didn't drip excessively before so I think with new packing it would be fine.

Thanks for the encouragement. Like I said, seems like its going fine. Reassembly tonight if the UPS man shows up.

I want to get this stut alignment figured out before dropping it back in. Hope I can tweak it enough with some grinding/shimming, etc to line up. It's WAY off.


Just remember that adjusting slightly on the strut will make big changes on the coupler side. The angle you claim "way" off prolly isn't off that much.

I would personally consider putting tranny back in first. Forget about the shaft problem right now.

Get the tranny back in and hooked up. If you have not fooled with any adjustments on the mounts then I bet you will start alignment in somewhat of a good ballpark figure. Get the mounts tightened to the stringer and tranny ready to roll. Start the boat and see if the tranny shifts correctly. After verifying correct tranny rebuild then fool with the strut.

If something freaky happened when you rebuilt the tranny and it has to be taken out again then the strut steps and pre alignment was all done for no reason and will have to be done again.

If you can roll the shaft then I'm sure it's fine. Remove the strut and start the strut install from scratch. Clean the strut and hull. Replace the strut bearings and install the strut after tranny is in. If strut is too far forward or backwards then that will change angles. The hull holes may be slightly ovaled over time and you probably can saveva ton of time starting fresh.

My .02

Kyle
03-07-2013, 02:10 PM
I'll inquire about the shaft if you want?

Table Rocker
03-07-2013, 02:23 PM
Kyle, awesome job in this thread. Above and beyond the call of duty, as you always do.

TayMC197
03-07-2013, 02:23 PM
I have the shaft that Kyle is speaking of. It came off my 92 190. The shaft is straight and true but where the strut was are some grooves where the strut rubbed it. I later found out that it would be perfectly fine for use. I sold that boat though. I bent my strut and it was twisted on the shaft. I'm willing to part ways with it sicne I was going to turn it and the old strut into a flag holder.

Kyle
03-07-2013, 02:35 PM
Kyle, awesome job in this thread. Above and beyond the call of duty, as you always do.

Thank you very much for the complement I really appreciate that.

1redTA
03-07-2013, 02:41 PM
as far as the grooves, a welder can fill the worn spots and any machinist worth the tools he is using can get it back to specs. Atleast this was the case when I worked at Whistler Machine Works. The guy I bought my boat from needed a new shaft so they just made him another from a bigger shaft turned down.

Scot
03-07-2013, 03:29 PM
Kyle, awesome job in this thread. Above and beyond the call of duty, as you always do.

Agreed.

The shaft sounds about the same as mine as far as the strut grooves, so maybe mine is OK too?

Never hurts to have a spare though, are the measurments the same as mine? 1 1/8" x 42" single taper.

TayMC197
03-07-2013, 04:00 PM
Mine is true. I had it spun and checked. I was told no need filling the grooves, it would be just fine.

TRBenj
03-07-2013, 05:11 PM
I agree that rebuilding these transmissions is unlikely to be the equivalent of rocket surgery... pretty sure the guys Ive had rebuild mine arent members of Mensa (I could be wrong!).:D

My point was that it seems experience counts for a lot on these things. Ive seen many smart guys f it up. The price difference between buying the components yourself and paying for a professional rebuild is not very much (I pay $600-700 for my rebuilds and Im pretty sure the OP is in the same ballpark). The guys who do this for a living have a bunch of cores and other hard parts lying around so if it turns out your pump is bad, they'll throw a good one in (usually without an extra charge) rather than charge you full retail for a new one. They also tend to know which part kits are higher quality and which small adjustments to make, as theyre usually warrantied and they dont want them coming back. Just something to think about.


Get the tranny back in and hooked up. If you have not fooled with any adjustments on the mounts then I bet you will start alignment in somewhat of a good ballpark figure. Get the mounts tightened to the stringer and tranny ready to roll. Start the boat and see if the tranny shifts correctly. After verifying correct tranny rebuild then fool with the strut.

If something freaky happened when you rebuilt the tranny and it has to be taken out again then the strut steps and pre alignment was all done for no reason and will have to be done again.
I think we disagree again here. There is no need to install the tranny before doing the first half of the alignment, as it is completely independent of powertrain location.

1. Align strut to the log
2. Align powertrain to the shaft

Both halves require you to feel for the spot where the shaft rotates freely in the bore of the strut, and align the components to that point. It is definitely a LOT easier to do the first half of the alignment with no powertrain in the boat whatsoever, if thats an option. Definitely no need to have the tranny in place either way.

Regarding repairing the shaft, that sounds like a fool's errand to me. Not sure what it would cost to repair, but I bet the difference in price between the repair and a new ARE ($380 for a 1-1/8" from SkiDIM) is less than the cost of a new prop... which is exactly what you'd be buying if the shaft breaks. Shafts can and do break- Ive seen it. Especially considering the fact that youve got the torque of a 1.5 reduction tranny twisting it, mated to a big frickin prop. Theres a reason MC went to the 1-1/8" shaft, remember.

Scot
03-07-2013, 11:52 PM
Well, everybody's input is certainly helpful. Of course I am taking bits and pieces of it all and adapting it my situation.

Kyle, unfortunately nothing was ever lined up right since my stringer replacement. I trusted my local shop which was a mistake. I had them pull the motor before I did the stringers and drop it in and "align" it at the end. Took 2 hands to turn the prop. Its taken me until now to see the whole picture. So I am starting from scratch.

Here is my plan, and I will be doing a lot of research after this post so this may change, any input is welcome.

First step is to align strut to the log. My plan is to get a piece of pipe that fits into the log and centers the shaft as much as possible. I will find the strut position that centers it to the shaft as good as possible and put it there whether it requires grinding, spacers or fiberglass (epoxy). Now my shaft and strut are centered to the hull.

Next step is tranny install. Before this I plan on lifting the motor up by removing the two big locknuts on the jackscrews and taking a big wrench and some liquid wrench to the sliding eye bolts to make alignment much easier. The ones on the tranny were frozen in place and when I rock the motor right now it only rotates on the bushings, not the swivels like it should (and yes, the locknuts are loosened.)

Next step will be the standard motor/tranny to shaft alignment with feeler gauges at the coupler and adjusting jack screws and side to side. Now everything should be aligned to the center of the shaft log.

Am I thinking right here Kyle, TRBenj, or any other experts?

Scot
03-08-2013, 12:05 AM
Also, I think I am going to run my current shaft this season. Its straight at least. If it vibrates a lot I will replace it. If mild grooves at the strut bearing are "normal" then so is mine.

TRBenj, as far as shops go in my town we have three. One only works on jets, one only works on v-drives but only does it as a side job, and then there is the main shop that does everything. I was quoted 1800 for a tranny rebuild by them and trust their quality of work less than half of my own. I could drive a few hours to Phoenix or San Diego and get better work, but I'd rather go it on my own.

If I didn't spend so much damn money to be an optometrist I would open a marine shop in this town!

Kyle
03-08-2013, 12:46 AM
If you are starting blind on alignment then I say you have a good plan.

I dont think that it really matters who's way is better. The glass is half full either way. It doesn't matter the way you do it as long as it gets done.

I just personally would verify a good tranny rebuild first. Removing the strut and re installing it won't matter if the tranny is in or not. The strut or tranny won't be in the way either way.

I don't see it being easier or harder either way. It's work that needs to be done and it won't matter the order.

I just personally would finish fixing one problem before fixing another out of personal preference. Not because one way is right or wrong, better or worse, faster or slower.

TRBenj
03-08-2013, 10:24 AM
Kyle, there are 3 problems, not 2.

1. Transmission rebuild
2. Strut to log alignment
3. Powertrain to shaft alignment

Agreed that working on #3 without verifying #1 is fixed is probably a waste, as you need to perform a powertrain alignment every time things come apart. Working on #2 is completely independent of the other things, and certainly wont need to be redone every time the tranny comes out. The fewer things in the way, the better (so Id do it now while the tranny is out) but it can certainly be done anytime.

Scot, it sounds like youve got the basic concept down. Use the old shaft for all of your strut to log alignment checks (dry fits). Once you finalize your strut mounting scheme (shims, grinding, whatever) then go ahead and bed it down in 5200... and check the alignment again with the old shaft. The strut can move around enough in the bolt holes to cause the shaft to hit the log. I'd snug up the strut hardware, check the alignment, and adjust the strut position with a BFH if necessary (it usually is) to get it perfectly centered again.

Remember that the point youre aligning to is where the shaft spins freely in the strut. There is come clearance and squish in the shaft bushing that will allow the front end of the shaft to sag under its own weight- make sure you dont align to this point.

I would not agree that grooving in the shaft at the strut bushing to be "normal". Smooth and polished, yes. But if you can catch a groove with your finger nail, its junk.

Kyle
03-08-2013, 11:49 AM
Kyle, there are 3 problems, not 2.

1. Transmission rebuild
2. Strut to log alignment
3. Powertrain to shaft alignment

Agree 100%

I guess my OCD would flare up and I would have to know my rebuild was good first. :)

mikeg205
03-09-2013, 07:19 PM
Ebasicpower.com is where I got my rebuild kit from. I think it is the cheapest place to get a master rebuild kit.

When I did mine I assembled everything and had the same problem. My clutches were worn and needed replacing but my front pump was bad. So I had to remove the tranny and put a pump in. It worked very well after that.

Hey Kyle,

Did you have to use a shop press to do your rebuild? I have the ZF 450 D or ZF45c and it calls for a bunch of specialty tools to rebuild.

Kyle
03-10-2013, 04:00 AM
Hey Kyle,

Did you have to use a shop press to do your rebuild? I have the ZF 450 D or ZF45c and it calls for a bunch of specialty tools to rebuild.

I did not use a press.

Most of the races and bearings are pressed on but mine were fine. No pits or signs of uneven wear.

I have not been inside of your style tranny before so my knowledge is probably not best on your style. I would have to get a shop manual and study it.

Wish I was more help

Scot
03-11-2013, 12:12 AM
Transmission is done, garage is clean, waiting till thursday to drop it in. Between now and then I hope to have my strut aligned. A few pics:

First one is a little tool I made out of a PVC adapter, bushing, and dremel tool to hold the shaft in the middle of the log while I mess with the strut.

Next pics show how the strut sits with the shaft centered, strut loose, and my left hand lifting lightly on the back of the shaft. There is a gap along the starboard side of the strut and at the back as well.

I am thinking I will try a flat washer along the aft and starboard bolts, leaving the front three port side bolts flush against the hull, then tighten up and see how it sits before I bed it. If it is still not centered well I will use some thick glass mat with poly resin (dries quick and I am working against gravity). No big deal, but hope the washers work well enough

jwp1504
03-11-2013, 03:02 AM
Hi Guys,

jwp1504
03-11-2013, 03:04 AM
Hi Guys,

I have a 2000 X Star that slips/misses as soon as it goes above 3600rpm. I have added videos on youtube to show what the taco is doing.

Am i having the same problem?

At first i thought it may have been dirty fuel, fuel filter or fuel pump??

This video is from idle...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjUXfXdh09Q

And this one is from 3200rpm up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD4WTp9-h7U

hewlett6621
03-11-2013, 04:05 AM
If the transmission was slipping would it gain revs not lose them ????

jwp1504
03-11-2013, 04:36 AM
Yeah good call!

So fuel? (Pump or filter)

TRBenj
03-11-2013, 09:09 AM
First one is a little tool I made out of a PVC adapter, bushing, and dremel tool to hold the shaft in the middle of the log while I mess with the strut.
First, try and see if you can grind the bottom of the strut to get the alignment to the log closer. You dont need to be perfectly centered in the log- just fairly close. So long as youre not rubbing, youre fine- the log hose will take up the slight misalignment. Make sure you align the powertrain to where the shaft spins freely in the strut (not necessarily centered in the log).

Try and limit the number of washers you put under the base of the strut- and dont put too much thickened resin under there either, if you can help it.

Scot
03-11-2013, 01:27 PM
Hi Guys,

I have a 2000 X Star that slips/misses as soon as it goes above 3600rpm. I have added videos on youtube to show what the taco is doing.



Your boat has a taco???:D

I agree definitely doesn't act like a trans issue. I'd start by giving it a full service and see what happens

Kyle
03-11-2013, 01:46 PM
If the transmission was slipping would it gain revs not lose them ????

It will gain rpm.

When the tranny slips it takes load off of the engine so it will over rev. Not good


Jwp you do not have a fuel problem. Tranny issue. Watched both vids

Kyle
03-11-2013, 01:50 PM
First, try and see if you can grind the bottom of the strut to get the alignment to the log closer. You dont need to be perfectly centered in the log- just fairly close. So long as youre not rubbing, youre fine- the log hose will take up the slight misalignment. Make sure you align the powertrain to where the shaft spins freely in the strut (not necessarily centered in the log).

Try and limit the number of washers you put under the base of the strut- and dont put too much thickened resin under there either, if you can help it.

Agree 100%


Less or no washers would be ideal.


Is there a way to grind the strut slightly to get the mating surface flush yet center?

TRBenj
03-11-2013, 06:11 PM
Is there a way to grind the strut slightly to get the mating surface flush yet center?
Yep... its called an angle grinder and a steady hand, followed by some hand filing. We added about 1/16" of taper (front to back) on the new strut we put on the BFN.

We tried it with washers first to determine how much it needed to be adjusted... then took the same amount of material off the opposite edge. Then its just a matter of making the surface flat- grind, check with straight edge, grind, check, etc. Then dry fit to verify it worked.

Note the thickness of the base... thickest on the left, thinnest on the right. No washers necessary, and dead nuts in the log.

jwp1504
03-11-2013, 06:31 PM
Jwp you do not have a fuel problem. Tranny issue. Watched both vids

Hey Kyle,

Won't the engine gain revs (not lose them) if the tranny is slipping?

BoulderX45
03-11-2013, 11:32 PM
That's either a spark plug or spark plug wire issue or a cap and rotor issue. It's not a transmission because your first video was in neutral.

Scot
03-11-2013, 11:57 PM
Kyle,

I know we are getting a little lost on this thread here but when I watch the video (#2) I am seeing it run steady then jump up high in RPM, and I assume he is accelerating (not the boat doing it on its own), then at WOT it starts missing and the revs drop off. Is my thinking off on this one?

Scot
03-12-2013, 12:16 AM
Back to topic,

I put the strut on my garage floor with a tri-square on each side and measured from each sqaure to the center of the tube. It's cocked centered in the front and cocked a good 1/4" to the port side in the back. Which explains why the shaft rides on the starboard log wall. I have three options as I see it, and shimming with fiberglass, washers, etc is clearly not one of the best.

1. Grind down the front port side of the base to reposition the tube to a centered position. Of course it will never be in its stock position this way

2. New strut

3. Take this one to a machine shop and have them true the tube up and plane the base.

Each one has its advantages and disadvantages, I like #2 and #3 the best but maybe thats OCD?If its between those two its a simple cost comparison.

Also, is 5200 definitely the best adhesive to use here? As much as I would like to think this strut will be on there forever, I'm not gonna bet my life on it. Came off pretty easy, but not sure if its been off before.

Kyle
03-12-2013, 12:24 AM
Yep... its called an angle grinder and a steady hand, followed by some hand filing. We added about 1/16" of taper (front to back) on the new strut we put on the BFN.

We tried it with washers first to determine how much it needed to be adjusted... then took the same amount of material off the opposite edge. Then its just a matter of making the surface flat- grind, check with straight edge, grind, check, etc. Then dry fit to verify it worked.

Note the thickness of the base... thickest on the left, thinnest on the right. No washers necessary, and dead nuts in the log.

That's nice work there.

Kyle
03-12-2013, 12:26 AM
Back to topic,

I put the strut on my garage floor with a tri-square on each side and measured from each sqaure to the center of the tube. It's cocked centered in the front and cocked a good 1/4" to the port side in the back. Which explains why the shaft rides on the starboard log wall. I have three options as I see it, and shimming with fiberglass, washers, etc is clearly not one of the best.

1. Grind down the front port side of the base to reposition the tube to a centered position. Of course it will never be in its stock position this way

2. New strut

3. Take this one to a machine shop and have them true the tube up and plane the base.

Each one has its advantages and disadvantages, I like #2 and #3 the best but maybe thats OCD?If its between those two its a simple cost comparison.

Also, is 5200 definitely the best adhesive to use here? As much as I would like to think this strut will be on there forever, I'm not gonna bet my life on it. Came off pretty easy, but not sure if its been off before.

Yes 5200

I like option 2 the best then 3 then 1

But I think my OCD would roll 2

Scot
03-12-2013, 12:29 AM
That's nice work there.

I agree, he can grind.

Curious what he has to say about mine, 1/4" seems like a hell of a lot to be off to me.

Kyle
03-12-2013, 12:46 AM
Back on the thread jack question


The boat rolls 4k plus seems to bounce off rev limit and takes 11 seconds to hit 30 mph and winding it out.

The second vid shows the engine falling off at 4+k and tops out -40 mph. Peaks at 4800


I am very curious that the boat is struggling so hard to get to 30 but is reving high rpm.


Before y'all flame me

1) Explain why the engine is screaming and takes forever to get to 15-30 mph. Is this a low HP engine?

2) instead of just dropping the throttle to the floor can the boat be driven normal rolling into the throttle and the prop staying somewhat even with rpm all of the way to 36mph.

3) did this just start doing this or is the boat new to you.

4) is the correct prop on the boat

5) what is the factory rev limit

6) why at 30 mph to wot does the boat creep up to speed.



Rpm turning (screaming) and boat not accelerating is a sign of slipping.

It looks like a tranny problem since you are spinning 4k and the mph starts increasing extremely slow. My boat will be up to 36mph in 6-7 seconds. 11 seconds we will be well over 40 possibly 46-47 mph on GPS

I would check tranny fluid color, smell, level, etc

Next I would evaluate the proper use of the boat under 4k rpm

If the tranny and engine perform correctly then agree there is obviously other issues.


A TPS that has a bad spot can confuse the ECM and can either lean out the engine or flood it. And there are other sensors that will cause the engine to bounce at any rpm.



My main concern is the fact the engine screams and the boat doesn't want to come up to speed.

Is it full of ballast, weight, etc there is no reason for the engine to take 11 seconds to come up to speed.

4k rpm and keeping it while accelerating is not a sign of bogging down. Engine is spinning strong and has weak acceleration.... Then we have 4-4800 rpm bouncing. Are we hitting rev limit???? If yes then you do not have engine problems.

If your rev limit is not hitting then you more than likely have a sensor failure.


Again boat has poor acceleration with high rpm. I need an explanation for this.

Scot
03-12-2013, 01:04 AM
the fact that the speedo on the left stays at zero even though the wind and water sounds seem to say that the boat is moving and the fact that the right one never moves, it seems that they are clogged/malfunctioning.

We need more info from the poster. Is your left speedo accurate? What was your throttling? When the motor is screaming are you at WOT or less?

thatsmrmastercraft
03-12-2013, 01:48 AM
Back to topic,

I put the strut on my garage floor with a tri-square on each side and measured from each sqaure to the center of the tube. It's cocked centered in the front and cocked a good 1/4" to the port side in the back. Which explains why the shaft rides on the starboard log wall. I have three options as I see it, and shimming with fiberglass, washers, etc is clearly not one of the best.

1. Grind down the front port side of the base to reposition the tube to a centered position. Of course it will never be in its stock position this way

2. New strut

3. Take this one to a machine shop and have them true the tube up and plane the base.

Each one has its advantages and disadvantages, I like #2 and #3 the best but maybe thats OCD?If its between those two its a simple cost comparison.

Also, is 5200 definitely the best adhesive to use here? As much as I would like to think this strut will be on there forever, I'm not gonna bet my life on it. Came off pretty easy, but not sure if its been off before.

Perhaps it is just the angle of the picture, but it looks like your measuring may be flawed by the garage floor not being true (no surprise there). Did you check to see if the measurements for A & B are the same? It does appear to be offset to the port side slightly though.

Table Rocker
03-12-2013, 10:21 AM
Hi Guys,

I have a 2000 X Star that slips/misses as soon as it goes above 3600rpm. I have added videos on youtube to show what the tach is doing.

Am i having the same problem?

At first i thought it may have been dirty fuel, fuel filter or fuel pump??

This video is from idle...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjUXfXdh09Q

And this one is from 3200rpm up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD4WTp9-h7U
I wish we could start a new thread, but... Does anyone else hear the loud knocks during the rev drops?

Table Rocker
03-12-2013, 10:28 AM
Back to topic,

I put the strut on my garage floor with a tri-square on each side and measured from each sqaure to the center of the tube. It's cocked centered in the front and cocked a good 1/4" to the port side in the back. Which explains why the shaft rides on the starboard log wall. I have three options as I see it, and shimming with fiberglass, washers, etc is clearly not one of the best.

1. Grind down the front port side of the base to reposition the tube to a centered position. Of course it will never be in its stock position this way

2. New strut

3. Take this one to a machine shop and have them true the tube up and plane the base.

Each one has its advantages and disadvantages, I like #2 and #3 the best but maybe thats OCD?If its between those two its a simple cost comparison.

Also, is 5200 definitely the best adhesive to use here? As much as I would like to think this strut will be on there forever, I'm not gonna bet my life on it. Came off pretty easy, but not sure if its been off before.
How about 2b. Get a long bar and some heat and try to bend it into alignment. Then work on the angle. If you fail, #2 is still available. A new strut might need angle adjustment too. A belt sander is a good tool for removing a thin wedge of material

TRBenj
03-12-2013, 10:37 AM
I would be careful about using the base of the strut to judge how off center the body is. Ive seen some very sloppy castings that would give you misleading numbers. I would also make sure youre measuring off of something perfectly flat, as someone pointed out. Got granite countertops?

Remember that being 1/4" over on the body wouldnt require a 1/4" adjustment on the base. Probably closer to 1/8". Still, thats a fair amount to compensate for, so you may want to get it closer before trying to make fine adjustments (grinding, washers, etc). See if you can have a shop bend it back for a reasonable amount. If not, then a new one is a consideration... but remember that even new ones may need some massaging to line up to the log (the one I altered was brand new).

Scot
03-13-2013, 12:49 AM
I know my measurements are not accurate, but we aren't talking 1/16", this thing is bent! Stand above it, close one eye, and its clear. Tried to get a good pic to show it but couldnt get one that proved my point. Going to the machine shop tomorrow morning. Cant imagine why they cant straighten a piece of brass but if they say no its option 2b. Will lag bolt it to a couple 4x4s and use my hands and feet, get it as close as I can.

Apparently this is not a simple replacement, skidim.com says these older struts can vary, my best bet may be marinehardware.com with all dimensions on their worksheet? Might be pricey, I dont know. Any ideas of other places to look? I am sure I can bend it if need be, I just trust the equipment in a machine shop more than my make-do garage methods. Biggest concern is keeping the tube round under pressure.

Scot
03-13-2013, 01:00 AM
Perhaps it is just the angle of the picture, but it looks like your measuring may be flawed by the garage floor not being true (no surprise there). Did you check to see if the measurements for A & B are the same? It does appear to be offset to the port side slightly though.

That picture is just to show my method (rough at best, I know), not the bend. I know its not a perfect method, but good enough to tell when it's this far off.

jwp1504
03-13-2013, 07:31 PM
the fact that the speedo on the left stays at zero even though the wind and water sounds seem to say that the boat is moving and the fact that the right one never moves, it seems that they are clogged/malfunctioning.

We need more info from the poster. Is your left speedo accurate? What was your throttling? When the motor is screaming are you at WOT or less?

Hi Guys,

I have the boat in gear in both videos, so i am accelerating. The fist video is from a still start (speedo doesn't work in this video but i am moving), and the second video is accelerating from 3000rpm.

It is not the rev limiter.

The reason for the high rpm is barefooting. I have owned the boat for 6 months and put 20 hours on it, i have barefooted behind it numerous times (and the day before this started happening) and it has never done this before.

The speedo is temperamental, sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.

jwp1504
03-13-2013, 07:32 PM
I wish we could start a new thread, but... Does anyone else hear the loud knocks during the rev drops?

There are very loud knocks when the revs drop. Again, i have no idea what this is!

Table Rocker
03-13-2013, 07:33 PM
There are very loud knocks when the revs drop. Again, i have no idea what this is!
I think if you start a new thread on this, it will get more traction.

jwp1504
03-13-2013, 07:38 PM
Back on the thread jack question


The boat rolls 4k plus seems to bounce off rev limit and takes 11 seconds to hit 30 mph and winding it out.

The second vid shows the engine falling off at 4+k and tops out -40 mph. Peaks at 4800


I am very curious that the boat is struggling so hard to get to 30 but is reving high rpm.


Before y'all flame me

1) Explain why the engine is screaming and takes forever to get to 15-30 mph. Is this a low HP engine?

2) instead of just dropping the throttle to the floor can the boat be driven normal rolling into the throttle and the prop staying somewhat even with rpm all of the way to 36mph.

3) did this just start doing this or is the boat new to you.

4) is the correct prop on the boat

5) what is the factory rev limit

6) why at 30 mph to wot does the boat creep up to speed.



Rpm turning (screaming) and boat not accelerating is a sign of slipping.

It looks like a tranny problem since you are spinning 4k and the mph starts increasing extremely slow. My boat will be up to 36mph in 6-7 seconds. 11 seconds we will be well over 40 possibly 46-47 mph on GPS

I would check tranny fluid color, smell, level, etc

Next I would evaluate the proper use of the boat under 4k rpm

If the tranny and engine perform correctly then agree there is obviously other issues.


A TPS that has a bad spot can confuse the ECM and can either lean out the engine or flood it. And there are other sensors that will cause the engine to bounce at any rpm.



My main concern is the fact the engine screams and the boat doesn't want to come up to speed.

Is it full of ballast, weight, etc there is no reason for the engine to take 11 seconds to come up to speed.

4k rpm and keeping it while accelerating is not a sign of bogging down. Engine is spinning strong and has weak acceleration.... Then we have 4-4800 rpm bouncing. Are we hitting rev limit???? If yes then you do not have engine problems.

If your rev limit is not hitting then you more than likely have a sensor failure.


Again boat has poor acceleration with high rpm. I need an explanation for this.

1) 330hp LTR engine
2) Even when i slowly increase the throttle to 3600rpm it still has the issue
3) I have owned the boat for 6 months and put 20 hours on it. The issing just started happening. There is no rev limiter as such, at full throttle the engine will do approx. 4800rpm. It doesn't cut out like a car rev limiter it just won't go any faster.
4) Yes, i have the correct prop on the boat and it was recently serviced.
5) No idea!
6) What do you mean by "WOT"?

There is no ballast in the boat and there is 4 poeple..

Cheers fr your help.

Joel

jwp1504
03-13-2013, 07:42 PM
Hi Guys,

I have started a new thread..

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?p=915445#post915445

Sorry for jacking this one!! :)

Scot
03-14-2013, 12:37 AM
Hi Guys,

I have started a new thread..

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?p=915445#post915445

Sorry for jacking this one!! :)

No worries, you caught my interest.

WOT= wide open throttle. I assumed you were opening up the throttle when the revs jumped up, not the boat doing this on its own, which would definitely be a slipping issue.

Scot
03-14-2013, 01:04 AM
Machine shop is afraid to crack the strut, won't touch it. Lag bolted it to a 4x4 and 2x4 side by side, used a shovel handle through the tube, couldn't get it to budge. Tomorrow I will take it to my local marine shop (not my favorite option as I have mentioned before) but they have a pretty good metal/body guy.

I would love to give this shop more business but how can I justify it when their store prices make west marine look like a bargain, they quote me "like 700 or 800" for a shaft, and their "alignment" left my shaft riding on the log and two hands to turn the prop. I wish their metal guy had his own shop.

Scot
03-16-2013, 01:46 AM
ground the strut base down with emphasis on the corner that needed to come up. Didnt line up. Put a washer on the opposite corner, still didnt line up.

Then I bolted it on tight, put a pipe wrench on it with a come-along to the trailer axle. Got it nice and straight this way.

Took it apart and when I went to put it back together a little bit later it still lined up crooked. Did the brass spring back? Should I try this again with heat? Cant get this damn thing to line up! I am tempted to just scrap this shaft and strut even though I just spent a hundred bucks on new bushings for this one.

CantRepeat
03-16-2013, 07:36 AM
ground the strut base down with emphasis on the corner that needed to come up. Didnt line up. Put a washer on the opposite corner, still didnt line up.

Then I bolted it on tight, put a pipe wrench on it with a come-along to the trailer axle. Got it nice and straight this way.

Took it apart and when I went to put it back together a little bit later it still lined up crooked. Did the brass spring back? Should I try this again with heat? Cant get this damn thing to line up! I am tempted to just scrap this shaft and strut even though I just spent a hundred bucks on new bushings for this one.

http://www.elberts.com/index.htm

Call them for underwater gear. When I bent my strut I called them and just gave him year make and model.

http://www.elberts.com/underwatergear.htm

thatsmrmastercraft
03-16-2013, 10:34 AM
ground the strut base down with emphasis on the corner that needed to come up. Didnt line up. Put a washer on the opposite corner, still didnt line up.

Then I bolted it on tight, put a pipe wrench on it with a come-along to the trailer axle. Got it nice and straight this way.

Took it apart and when I went to put it back together a little bit later it still lined up crooked. Did the brass spring back? Should I try this again with heat? Cant get this damn thing to line up! I am tempted to just scrap this shaft and strut even though I just spent a hundred bucks on new bushings for this one.

That darn strut is kicking your butt.:rolleyes: May have to over-correct when you torque it to end up true. Wouldn't have thought it would take so much effort.

Scot
03-17-2013, 03:37 AM
That darn strut is kicking your butt.:rolleyes: May have to over-correct when you torque it to end up true. Wouldn't have thought it would take so much effort.

Me either.

Think I got it now. My torquing worked again but it slipped back a bit when I loosened it again.

So I applied 5200, snugged up the 4 outer bolts and torqued it until the shaft touched the opposite corner of where it used to ride. Tightened the bolts and took the pressure off and it sat right where I wanted it to. Put the four inner bolts in and snugged them up. Put a couple more cranks on the winch to bias the shaft toward the opposite corner of where it rode before and tightened all bolts. I will keep the winch where it is for a day and hopefully when I release it everything will be close to center. I am banking on a little play in the bolt holes (not much), the 5200 holding everything in place, and a little bending of the strut.

After I release the pressure I am going to watch the shaft for a day or so and make sure everythin doesn't recoil to its old position. If it does it's no more mr. nice guy- heat, a lot of pulling and whatever happens, whether its straightening this thing, breaking it and buying a new one, or ripping the bottom of my boat apart. I sure hope its not the last one, but hopefully everything works the first time.

Scot
03-17-2013, 03:46 AM
I found a machine shop that is willing to fill the grooves in my shaft and turn it back down.

Anyone have any input as to whether it is a good idea or not to try this?

If not I will probably just run this shaft as is. Not much play in the shaft once its in the strut, just want to reduce vibration if possible without replacing the shaft.

Also, does anyone know if vaseline will damage the cutlass bushings if I use it to check rotation while dry? I wouldn't think so but my transmission manual warned against using it on the seals as it can damage the rubber, not sure if that applies to something like these bushings.

thatsmrmastercraft
03-17-2013, 11:41 AM
As this is a hardened shaft, the heating and cooling from welding may play a part in changing the hardness. I am not a metallurgist, or even play one on TV, but there are some folks on here that are qualified to speak to that.

88 PS190
03-17-2013, 11:59 AM
There are machinists qualified for the job, lots of machined, hardened shafts on heavy equipment, that are more cost effective to weld and grind. They just have to use the right process.

I know several machinists build up crank journals when appropriate replacement bearings are NLA - you can bet that is hardened as well.

Table Rocker
03-17-2013, 12:02 PM
If the groove is from rubbing on the log and the groove doesn't contact any seal, I would leave it alone. I would think that the welding would be a bigger problem than the groove.

If you are concerned about it snapping off and the prop getting into the rudder, you might install a shaft anode above the strut. That would keep it from sliding back in the event of a shaft failure.

http://www.go2marine.com/product/99078F/shaped-shaft-zincs.html

Cloaked
03-17-2013, 12:39 PM
I found a machine shop that is willing to fill the grooves in my shaft and turn it back down.

Anyone have any input as to whether it is a good idea or not to try this?

If not I will probably just run this shaft as is. Not much play in the shaft once its in the strut, just want to reduce vibration if possible without replacing the shaft.

Also, does anyone know if vaseline will damage the cutlass bushings if I use it to check rotation while dry? I wouldn't think so but my transmission manual warned against using it on the seals as it can damage the rubber, not sure if that applies to something like these bushings.Alterations in the HAZ of hardened metals typically (not always) require either (or both, depending) pre-weld heat tretment or post-weld heat treatment. with a controlled process to monitor the proper heat when pre-heating or post-heating (for controlled cool-down). That's it in a nut shell. Also depends on the metal as well.

Personally, I'd buy a new shaft and install. I would not rely on 5200, JB Weld, or any other supplemental product to secure a mechanical application. Your call. I know the objective is to be as frugal and self-serving as possible but in this case, I'd resort to a new part. If the groove is not in a sealed area and does not evidently present a vibration, run what you have the way it is.

On the other hand, if it were to work for your needs, all the better.

Any warp, wobble, or off-balance harmonic motion will eventually wear on the cutlass bearing.

I too would not think Vaseline would present a problem with the minimal application. Here's a link to the MSDS.
http://whatsinproducts.com/files/brands_pdf/9712_21010117%20MSDS%20Vaseline%20Baby%20Baby%20Fr esh%20Scent.pdf

Table Guy pretty well summed it up. +1

$0.02

.

1redTA
03-17-2013, 01:35 PM
when I worked at an industrial machine shop it was very common to weld a shaft and turn in back down with the appropriate procedures. if the shaft rides on a seal I wouldn't hesitate to have it welded up

Scot
03-17-2013, 11:25 PM
If the groove is from rubbing on the log and the groove doesn't contact any seal, I would leave it alone. I would think that the welding would be a bigger problem than the groove.

If you are concerned about it snapping off and the prop getting into the rudder, you might install a shaft anode above the strut. That would keep it from sliding back in the event of a shaft failure.

http://www.go2marine.com/product/99078F/shaped-shaft-zincs.html

The grooves are where it rode on the strut bushings and the packing. Some from the log, but as you mentioned, nothing to concern myself with. The packing didnt drip excessively, so not worried about that one too much either. Just dont want the shaft vibrating in the strut.

Scot
03-17-2013, 11:41 PM
Personally, I'd buy a new shaft and install. I would not rely on 5200, JB Weld, or any other supplemental product to secure a mechanical application. Your call. I know the objective is to be as frugal and self-serving as possible but in this case, I'd resort to a new part. If the groove is not in a sealed area and does not evidently present a vibration, run what you have the way it is.

On the other hand, if it were to work for your needs, all the better.

Any warp, wobble, or off-balance harmonic motion will eventually wear on the cutlass
.

I agree and trust me I am not using the 5200 for any purpose other than sealing up the strut base and giving it a little extra bite to stay in place where I bolted it. My torquing on the strut seems to have set it right as the shaft is centered now, so strut is off the shopping list.

As for the shaft, there is very minimal play at the prop end when in place. However, I know there will be some vibration in my worn shaft in comparison to one with no groove at the bushing. If I can get it welded for cheap and not make things worse it would be worth it, otherwise I found a few places online that will make a new one for about $250. A dual taper would be nice, but I dont plan on frequent shaft replacements, so the old single taper will do.

Scot
03-17-2013, 11:48 PM
Back to original topic- transmission is in and bolted up. Shaft is lined up. Now its just hooking everything back up and seeing if it runs. Too late to run it tonight, will be a few days.

thatsmrmastercraft
03-18-2013, 12:06 AM
Good to see things coming together on this. Anxious to hear how it works out.

TRBenj
03-18-2013, 02:17 PM
That $250 quote you got on the shaft doesnt include the coupler, does it? The $300-350 for the dual taper does. I have not found a new price on a single taper shaft + coupler that was lower than the dual taper system when using the appropriate discounts. Really, its a no brainer.

Again, with grooving on the shaft, I would not run it as-is. I would not invest a dime in trying to fix it. Just replace it, or risk ruining a day on the water, along with losing your prop, if it breaks.

Good job on getting the strut lined up (I assume you lined it up to the point where the shaft spun freely and was not sagging under its own weight?). Sometimes it takes a bit of coercion to get it there.

Scot
03-18-2013, 11:50 PM
That $250 quote you got on the shaft doesnt include the coupler, does it? The $300-350 for the dual taper does. I have not found a new price on a single taper shaft + coupler that was lower than the dual taper system when using the appropriate discounts. Really, its a no brainer.

Again, with grooving on the shaft, I would not run it as-is. I would not invest a dime in trying to fix it. Just replace it, or risk ruining a day on the water, along with losing your prop, if it breaks.

Good job on getting the strut lined up (I assume you lined it up to the point where the shaft spun freely and was not sagging under its own weight?). Sometimes it takes a bit of coercion to get it there.

My price on the shaft was using my original coupler, so thats mainly where the savings comes from.

As for the shaft, we are talking about a few thousandths of run-out where it rides on the bushings. It sits pretty snug in the strut. Is that really that bad? I have ruled out trying to fix this one, its either runable or being replaced. Its obviously taken many years to get to this point and running this way for quite a while.

As for your input on the strut alignment, I want to make sure we're on the same page so I get it right. My strut alignment was done with the shaft not coupled to the trans. I positioned it so that it rides as close to center as possible in the log and plan to align the motor/trans to where the shaft rides free and centered in the strut. This seemed to make the most sense to me since the log was the only good reference point I had for my alignment considering the motor, trans, and strut were all off.

Also, when I had the trans out the shaft would easily pop out by pushing forward out of the strut and then pulling it out of the log. Now it can only go back and it binds against the rudder when it goes that way. Am I missing something here or is there an easy way to get it out? It was the same way before my manipulation of the strut.

TRBenj
03-19-2013, 10:02 AM
My price on the shaft was using my original coupler, so thats mainly where the savings comes from.
Id be hesitant to reuse the old coupler with a new shaft. You may want to consider getting the coupling refaced with the new shaft so you know the fit is tight and the flange isnt warped.

As for the shaft, we are talking about a few thousandths of run-out where it rides on the bushings. It sits pretty snug in the strut. Is that really that bad? I have ruled out trying to fix this one, its either runable or being replaced. Its obviously taken many years to get to this point and running this way for quite a while.
I dont know what the allowable spec for runout is, but by the way you previously described it, it sounded bad. If its enough to catch a finger nail on, I would not run it.

As for your input on the strut alignment, I want to make sure we're on the same page so I get it right. My strut alignment was done with the shaft not coupled to the trans.Correct.
I positioned it so that it rides as close to center as possible in the log
By this I assume you mean that you located the strut such that the shaft spun freely when centered in the log. If you located the strut while the shaft was allowed to sag under its own weight or otherwise forced to the center of the log (the rubber strut bushing allows for some "squish") then that is not correct. and plan to align the motor/trans to where the shaft rides free and centered in the strut. This seemed to make the most sense to me since the log was the only good reference point I had for my alignment considering the motor, trans, and strut were all off.
It sounds like you did it correctly- just confirming. You want to align the powertrain to where the shaft spins freely. This may or may not be when the shaft is centered in the log. That is the appropriate reference point when aligning the strut- the goal would be to get the shaft perfectly centered in the log where it spins freely, but a little bit off here is fine (so long as its not rubbing the log). The important thing is powertrain to strut alignment.

Also, when I had the trans out the shaft would easily pop out by pushing forward out of the strut and then pulling it out of the log. Now it can only go back and it binds against the rudder when it goes that way. Am I missing something here or is there an easy way to get it out? It was the same way before my manipulation of the strut.
I am not totally following whats going on here. Are you saying that due to the new strut location, the shaft hits the rudder when trying to install/remove from the rear?

Scot
03-21-2013, 12:58 AM
I am not totally following whats going on here. Are you saying that due to the new strut location, the shaft hits the rudder when trying to install/remove from the rear?

Correct. And it was that way before too, and at that point the misalignment actually would have made it easier to pass the shaft. And I was hesitant to post that and hear that my strut must be off, but I am pretty confident in my strut to log alignment it rides pretty damn centered in the log when you pick it up and relieve binding/sag. And looking at the alignment of the strut mount and rudder mount holes they just look too close to possibly slide a 1 1/8" shaft past the rudder with everything lined up. Is this common?

Getting close to testing the tranny. I know it's taking forever but considering the small window of time I have to work on this thing each day I am doing okay. Got the alignment "eyeball" close which is much better than the shop did last year. Will finish tomorrow.

It blows my mind that I spent so much time on my stringers and blindly trusted my local shop to "align" everything when they dropped my motor back in. I guess it was the combination of project burnout and time to get on the water.

As for the runout on the shaft- not at all worried about shaft failure. Not that bad, at least I dont think. Just dont want vibration in my drivetrain after all the effort to get it back to normal. I also tend to be a little (a lot) OCD on my projects and it is a constant battle to decide if something is really worth replacing or not.

TRBenj
03-21-2013, 09:59 AM
I would have to have a pretty trusting relationship with a shop thats going to align my boat. I suspect most wont do it properly, or at all. Its not difficult- just time consuming... so definitely a good thing to tackle on your own. Sounds like youre closing in on it.

Ironic timing on your decision to reuse the shaft. Yesterday my buddy broke a 5 year old ARE (which is a pretty high grade of stainless, no less) on a boat that was perfectly aligned. Dinged up his brand new $$$ Acme prop in the process. Shafts can and do break- so just be aware that youre reusing that shaft at a risk. His engine is a good bit healthier than stock, which surely contributed to the premature failure, but that shaft was perfect not that long ago.

Scot
03-22-2013, 01:16 AM
Transmission works, forward and reverse. Cant stop it with my hand at idle and no dirty neutral at all. We'll see how it is under load, could be a whole different story.

Getting the final alignment done over the next night or two (I know, I'm slow, but I'm busy) . There is virtually no shaft play at the prop end despite the shaft wear.

One reason I am hesitant to replace the shaft if not absolutely necessary is that I am running in shallow and somewhat unfamiliar waters. Dont plan on hitting a sandbar, but if I do I would rather do it with an old shaft than a brand new one.

The lower Colorado River is not like my good old lakes back home, but this is home now so I will make do. I'm certainly not gonna buy a jet. I see wakeboard boats out there all the time, if they can get by I should be able to.

Scot
04-06-2013, 10:58 PM
So everything is working well as far as function. No slip, no dirty neutral, smooth and solid shifts in forward and reverse.

Before I tore this thing apart I was hearing a chatter coming from somewhere back there. After my analysis I decided it was most likely the shaft riding on the log (it wore a groove in it if you don't recall).

However, I am still hearing it. One thing that crossed my mind was the vibration damper, but it just doesnt seem like that.

When I got it home today I pulled the floor up again and uncoupled the shaft. It makes the same sound in gear. By feel and sound it seems to be concentrated in the reduction unit. Only makes the noise in gear. The coupler gets hot when running in gear (uncoupled), not sure if it should but doesn't seem like it.

Any ideas? Bad reduction gears? They seemed to spin smoothly when I had it apart. If it was an actual "tranny" issue it seems like it would have some performance issues which it doesn't. One thought is poor lubing of the rear unit. Thinking about pulling the reduction housing and seeing if fluid drains.

Scot
04-07-2013, 04:11 PM
After reading up on other threads the symptoms seem to point to a worn damper plate. Others have even described the noise as seeming like it is in the back portion of the tranny.

Gonna get a new one ordered and slide the tranny back again.

Has anyone come up with a good way of sliding the tranny back without using a lift?

TRBenj
04-08-2013, 12:38 PM
Oh geez, you didnt replace the damper while you had the trans off for a rebuild? For the minimal cost ($80 for a BW damper) that should always be a given.

Somebody on this thread should have piped in earlier!

Scot
04-09-2013, 01:06 AM
I know, bad move. I knew better, too.

Scot
04-10-2013, 12:37 AM
Got the tranny pulled again and damper off.

Now concerned I may not have ordered the right one. The one I took off is triangular and takes 2 bolts per ear. The one I ordered looks like all of the ones I found for a 10-17 trans and ford small block. It's also triangular but more "star" shaped and takes 1 bolt per ear. None of the other holes on my flywheel seem to be threaded. Should this new damper bolt up?

Here's what came off.

TRBenj
04-10-2013, 11:09 AM
This is the damper you want. (http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/p/ALTDA-106)

One bolt per leg is fine.

Scot
04-11-2013, 01:21 AM
This is the damper you want. (http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/p/ALTDA-106)

One bolt per leg is fine.

I bought the same one with the tips cut off for the ford flywheel. It was ten bucks more and I decided that was worth not having to cut it myself. Just hoping the "single bolt" set up lines up right. Everyone seems to think so, so hopefully I will be back on the water Sunday, without the rattle.

Scot
04-11-2013, 01:34 AM
If I want to use new bolts, should regular grade 8's be good enough?

Kyle
04-11-2013, 03:19 AM
If I want to use new bolts, should regular grade 8's be good enough?

The factory bolts will be just fine.

Scot
05-10-2013, 12:48 AM
Update: Trans works like a dream. Shifts smooth, no slip, no dirty neutral and no noise.

Waiting for a starter right now. It has a nasty short. I suspect it had a slight short that was causing a slow battery drain I couldnt figure out that just now turned into a full on "hot battery start a fire arc" when you take the battery cable off issue.

As much as I love projects, some days I wish I would have just signed some papers and bought a new boat.