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gid
12-27-2012, 01:59 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/jumping_out_of_their_kins_SpNwWIBDvSotYbcF7bQZ3O

NY Post has a good article on the "cliff' this Country is going to go over, also a good chart at the bottom of their page breaking out each income level. So now you too can see how much more you will be paying in Fed taxes
I was going to buy a new vehicle this year...not if we go off the 'cliff' I wont shop either...just food, gas and housing costs

thatsmrmastercraft
12-27-2012, 02:03 PM
Yikes:eek3::eek3::eek3:

2RLAKE
12-27-2012, 02:11 PM
At work when we have issues we solve them ... No victims ... Be the change you want to be

Many elected officials have never held "real" job and have never lead in times of trouble. It's sad that they can't find a solution ... It's very simple math ... Here is the sum of the expenses and here are the taxes that they conveniently call revenue ... Taxes can't be less than expenses

We need to cut expenses wisely, challenge entitlement programs and find a solution here. Raising taxes this draconian will kill the economy ...those who make more spend more

thatsmrmastercraft
12-27-2012, 02:18 PM
At work when we have issues we solve them ... No victims ... Be the change you want to be

Many elected officials have never held "real" job and have never lead in times of trouble. It's sad that they can't find a solution ... It's very simple math ... Here is the sum of the expenses and here are the taxes that they conveniently call revenue ... Taxes can't be less than expenses

We need to cut expenses wisely, challenge entitlement programs and find a solution here. Raising taxes this draconian will kill the economy ...those who make more spend more

I would really enjoy being the guy to go through all the crap government programs with an ax ready to chop. I'm thinking I could find a little room to save some money.:rolleyes:

TxsRiverRat
12-27-2012, 02:26 PM
holy cArp - I'll be hit with an additional $53k in taxes

FrankSchwab
12-27-2012, 03:25 PM
I would really enjoy being the guy to go through all the crap government programs with an ax ready to chop. I'm thinking I could find a little room to save some money.:rolleyes:

OK, here's your chance. The US Budget for 2012 contained 3.7 Trillion dollars in spending, and 2.4 Trillion dollars in income, for a net deficit of 1.3 Trillion dollars. So to balance the budget, you need to ax 1.3 Trillion dollars from the Federal Budget.

(From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_federal_budget#Total_outlays_by _budget_function))
Budget
(Billions) Function
$778.57 Social Security
$716.30 National Defense
$579.58 Income Security
$484.49 Medicare
$361.63 Health
$224.78 Net Interest
$139.21 Education, Training, Employment and Social Services
$129.61 Veterans Benefits and Services
$102.55 Transportation
$79.62 Commerce and Housing Credit
$62.02 Administration of Justice
$56.25 International Affairs
$42.83 Natural Resources and Environment
$31.76 General Government
$31.69 Community and Regional Development
$30.99 General Science, Space and Technology
$23.27 Energy
$19.17 Agriculture
$0.13 Allowances
($98.90) Undistributed Offsetting Receipts

Go ahead, give it a try - Eliminate 1.3 Trillion dollars from the budget. What you'll find is that, in simple terms, you can eliminate everything below "Medicare", gutting essentially the entire federal government, to do so. You'll still have to pay the $224 Billion in interest on the National Debt, so you'll still have to come up with that much more to cut.

At this point, you've eliminated (roughly):
Department of Education
Department of Agriculture
Department of Veterans Affairs
Department of State and Other International Programs
Department of Homeland Security
Department of Energy
Department of Justice
NASA
Department of Transportation
Department of the Treasury
Department of the Interior
Department of Labor
Department of Commerce
Department of Housing and Urban Development
Army Corps of Engineers Civil Works
Environmental Protection Agency
National Science Foundation
Small Business Administration

And left:
Social Security Administration
Department of Health and Human Services including Medicare and Medicaid
Department of Defense including Overseas Contingency Operations

What a government! Frankly, I think about half of those federal departments have outlived their usefulness and could go, but most of them have budgets in the $10-$20 billion dollar range - chump change. Killing them off won't make a visible dent in the deficit.

Sure, you could cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, but you'd end up with 40 million photogenic retired people outside your door with pitchforks and torches.

You could cut the defense department - but that could never happen. Spending slightly less than the rest of the world COMBINED on the military is somehow sacrosanct. Even completely lopping off the defense department wouldn't balance the budget.

Are you willing to take a shot?

/frank

gid
12-27-2012, 04:44 PM
Also....as the Ag bill is tacked into this 'Cliff' dive. The price of milk is predicted to go up to $6-$8 a gallon. So not only will we pay more in Fed taxes but goods will go up as well.

FYI - I drink a gallon of milk a day, love it! So my monthly costs just went up $90 a month, roughly, just for Milk.

1redTA
12-27-2012, 05:42 PM
I don't know if I could cover my medical treatments and expenses if not for the VA and yes I had a Line of Duty accident not got drunk and fell down the stairs or a car wreck. I don't agree with the VA covering non line of duty things

GoneBoatN
12-27-2012, 06:32 PM
OK, here's your chance. The US Budget for 2012 contained 3.7 Trillion dollars in spending, and 2.4 Trillion dollars in income, for a net deficit of 1.3 Trillion dollars. So to balance the budget, you need to ax 1.3 Trillion dollars from the Federal Budget.

(From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_federal_budget#Total_outlays_by _budget_function))
Budget
(Billions) Function
$778.57 Social Security
$716.30 National Defense
$579.58 Income Security
$484.49 Medicare
$361.63 Health
$224.78 Net Interest
$139.21 Education, Training, Employment and Social Services
$129.61 Veterans Benefits and Services
$102.55 Transportation
$79.62 Commerce and Housing Credit
$62.02 Administration of Justice
$56.25 International Affairs
$42.83 Natural Resources and Environment
$31.76 General Government
$31.69 Community and Regional Development
$30.99 General Science, Space and Technology
$23.27 Energy
$19.17 Agriculture
$0.13 Allowances
($98.90) Undistributed Offsetting Receipts

Go ahead, give it a try - Eliminate 1.3 Trillion dollars from the budget. What you'll find is that, in simple terms, you can eliminate everything below "Medicare", gutting essentially the entire federal government, to do so. You'll still have to pay the $224 Billion in interest on the National Debt, so you'll still have to come up with that much more to cut.

At this point, you've eliminated (roughly):
Department of Education
Department of Agriculture
Department of Veterans Affairs
Department of State and Other International Programs
Department of Homeland Security
Department of Energy
Department of Justice
NASA
Department of Transportation
Department of the Treasury
Department of the Interior
Department of Labor
Department of Commerce
Department of Housing and Urban Development
Army Corps of Engineers Civil Works
Environmental Protection Agency
National Science Foundation
Small Business Administration

And left:
Social Security Administration
Department of Health and Human Services including Medicare and Medicaid
Department of Defense including Overseas Contingency Operations

What a government! Frankly, I think about half of those federal departments have outlived their usefulness and could go, but most of them have budgets in the $10-$20 billion dollar range - chump change. Killing them off won't make a visible dent in the deficit.

Sure, you could cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, but you'd end up with 40 million photogenic retired people outside your door with pitchforks and torches.

You could cut the defense department - but that could never happen. Spending slightly less than the rest of the world COMBINED on the military is somehow sacrosanct. Even completely lopping off the defense department wouldn't balance the budget.

Are you willing to take a shot?

/frank

I understand your point but our elected officials use this kind of logic for continuing to not address the problem/issue. When social welfare is mentioned they say cutting it would not put a dent in the deficit. Trimming defense spending would not put a dent in the deficit...

The thing is you have to start somewhere and the sooner you start the sooner it is fixed. The longer you wait the harder it is going to be to take the cure. All these wildly out of hand Departments of bla, bla, bla need trimmed. The time for less Federal Government has long since passed. Implement a straight/flat tax and you can get rid of a great deal of the IRS - just an example. Everyone is going to need an attitude of "do more with less" including the DoD and ourselves as individuals.

nkorep2
12-27-2012, 06:42 PM
I dont think my taxes are going to be affected much at all. But I guess you have to make a decent amount of money to get taxed on it. Im in favor of a universal tax rate. Everyone pays their share. I dont think the vast majority of the people on this site should be paying my share.

jgraham37128
12-27-2012, 07:14 PM
We're getting what we voted for. The majority of the USA wanted to keep the same president and the same non working government we've had for years so let it rip. It may be the best thing for this country in the long run, to have 8 years of no growth and high unemployment. This way we we do get back on track everyone who thought these days weren't so bad can really understand how bad things were.

JG

JimN
12-27-2012, 07:46 PM
OK, here's your chance. The US Budget for 2012 contained 3.7 Trillion dollars in spending, and 2.4 Trillion dollars in income, for a net deficit of 1.3 Trillion dollars. So to balance the budget, you need to ax 1.3 Trillion dollars from the Federal Budget.

(From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_United_States_federal_budget#Total_outlays_by _budget_function))
Budget
(Billions) Function
$778.57 Social Security

/frank

Social Security isn't an expense, unless they're funding any part of it, which they aren't. They're distributing money that was contributed by people whose pay put them in the bracket that makes them "worthy" of doing so. Sure, they have management costs, but apparently, they use that to justify raiding it for a source of free money.

So, I guess the deficit is more like $2 Trillion dollars.

JimN
12-27-2012, 07:51 PM
We're getting what we voted for. The majority of the USA wanted to keep the same president and the same non working government we've had for years so let it rip. It may be the best thing for this country in the long run, to have 8 years of no growth and high unemployment. This way we we do get back on track everyone who thought these days weren't so bad can really understand how bad things were.

JG

Beg your pardon? The ones who want to continue to take from the government and are in favor of the government leading the country to ruin got what they wanted. The rest of us are getting screwed.

BTW- that majority was of voters, not the country. I'm pretty sure there's a good number of people who don't vote but could have voted for someone else in an effort to keep Obama from being re-elected (like an alternate candidate), even though they may be eligible.

How, exactly, would no growth and high unemployment do the country ANY good? If you remember, the only thing that got us out of The Great Depression was WWII and another World War is the last thing we need.

JimN
12-27-2012, 07:53 PM
I dont think my taxes are going to be affected much at all. But I guess you have to make a decent amount of money to get taxed on it. Im in favor of a universal tax rate. Everyone pays their share. I dont think the vast majority of the people on this site should be paying my share.

What do you propose to do about the huge number who never pay because they have no job skills, education or desire to improve themselves to the point that they would be able to make more?

FrankSchwab
12-27-2012, 08:12 PM
Social Security isn't an expense, unless they're funding any part of it, which they aren't. They're distributing money that was contributed by people whose pay put them in the bracket that makes them "worthy" of doing so. Sure, they have management costs, but apparently, they use that to justify raiding it for a source of free money.

So, I guess the deficit is more like $2 Trillion dollars.

Yeah, Social Security was one of the biggest scams against the young every perpetrated. Every single penny that we contributed to the "Social Security Trust Fund" has been spent - every dime of Social Security expenditures that gets paid out over and above current payroll taxes comes from the general fund.

trickskier
12-27-2012, 08:13 PM
Beg your pardon? The ones who want to continue to take from the government and are in favor of the government leading the country to ruin got what they wanted. The rest of us are getting screwed.

BTW- that majority was of voters, not the country. I'm pretty sure there's a good number of people who don't vote but could have voted for someone else in an effort to keep Obama from being re-elected (like an alternate candidate), even though they may be eligible.

How, exactly, would no growth and high unemployment do the country ANY good? If you remember, the only thing that got us out of The Great Depression was WWII and another World War is the last thing we need.

What do you propose to do about the huge number who never pay because they have no job skills, education or desire to improve themselves to the point that they would be able to make more?

Good points JimN - Obama will go down as the worst President in the history of the USA. He's not a leader, he's an egotist!!!

FrankSchwab
12-27-2012, 08:34 PM
I understand your point but our elected officials use this kind of logic for continuing to not address the problem/issue. When social welfare is mentioned they say cutting it would not put a dent in the deficit. Trimming defense spending would not put a dent in the deficit...

The thing is you have to start somewhere and the sooner you start the sooner it is fixed. The longer you wait the harder it is going to be to take the cure.

But it's intellectual dishonesty to say "the sooner you start the sooner it is fixed". If you can't say what "start" means, and how it's going to affect the deficit over the next 1, 5, 10, 20 years, all you're really saying is "there's a bunch of programs that I disagree with that I want to kill, and I'm going to use the deficit as a cover to try to do so". You can talk all you want about <name your favorite government spending boondoggle>, but if cutting it doesn't impact the deficit then be honest - simply say "I don't like this program, and want to see it eliminated".

My point above is that we've passed the point where cutting school lunches or eliminating the EPA can have any affect on our national economic health. Defense spending is going nowhere but up - and it's going to be left in the dust by the rise in mandatory social spending. As the population ages and there are fewer workers supporting each retiree, and as new benefits get instituted for retirees to pander to the strongest voting block in the country, the deficits associated with SS, Medicaid, and Medicare are going to skyrocket.

The fiscal cliff problems don't matter in the long run - taxes aren't high enough to pay off the promises that have been made - promises that we don't have the political will to break. They will have to go up, unless a miraculous turnaround occurs in the economy that raises tax revenues without raising tax rates. Whether they go up next week, or next year, isn't that important from a long term perspective. Spending can't decrease significantly (and will IMHO continue to increase at an increasing rate), so taxes have to go up eventually.

jgraham37128
12-27-2012, 08:41 PM
Good points JimN - Obama will go down as the worst President in the history of the USA. He's not a leader, he's an egotist!!!



I agree 100%!!!

jgraham37128
12-27-2012, 08:45 PM
Beg your pardon? The ones who want to continue to take from the government and are in favor of the government leading the country to ruin got what they wanted. The rest of us are getting screwed.

BTW- that majority was of voters, not the country. I'm pretty sure there's a good number of people who don't vote but could have voted for someone else in an effort to keep Obama from being re-elected (like an alternate candidate), even though they may be eligible.

How, exactly, would no growth and high unemployment do the country ANY good? If you remember, the only thing that got us out of The Great Depression was WWII and another World War is the last thing we need.

I agree. I'm one of the one's getting screwed!

Those were wasted votes and one of the reasons he was re-elected.

It doesn't do us any good, but all I heard during the campaign was we're on the right track just not down as far as we needed to go so he needs another four more years to get us into prosperity.

CantRepeat
12-27-2012, 08:50 PM
Personally, I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes.

As far as war, surely we don't NEED any more, but did we NEED WWII? No. Even at 49 I'd gladly saddle back up if war came to our shores.

And that tax rate article is BS. It's the flat tax rate and doesn't even include deductions or exemptions. It's just some flame bate news crap.

trickskier
12-27-2012, 09:06 PM
Personally, I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes.

As far as war, surely we don't NEED any more, but did we NEED WWII? No. Even at 49 I'd gladly saddle back up if war came to our shores.

And that tax rate article is BS. It's the flat tax rate and doesn't even include deductions or exemptions. It's just some flame bate news crap.

I wouldn't mind paying a little more either. But it pisses me off seeing people on welfare walking around talking and texting on cell phones that I'm paying for!!!

Our government needs to cut the wasteful spending and replace Made in China with Made in the USA!!!

mikeg205
12-27-2012, 09:40 PM
I wouldn't mind paying a little more either. But it pisses me off seeing people on welfare walking around talking and texting on cell phones that I'm paying for!!!

Our government needs to cut the wasteful spending and replace Made in China with Made in the USA!!!

Amen.

Sullivan
12-27-2012, 10:15 PM
You guys are nuts, I don't want to pay another damn penny. It makes my blood boil thinking about my tax dollors getting wasted by those a$$holes. How can you possibly be open to someone taking your hard earned money and burning it!

DemolitionMan
12-27-2012, 10:30 PM
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=homepage2

j2nh
12-27-2012, 10:39 PM
The US government is spending 1 TRILLION dollars more each year than it is taking in. This will be the 5th year in a row that annual deficit has exceeded 1 Trillion. October and November had deficits 20% higher than last year. We are on record pace.

The Fiscal cliff will kill the economy, say hello to a double dip recession, and bring in maybe an additional 320 Billion in revenue. We will still have a deficit of 800 Billion. Money our kids will eventually have to pay back.

Clearly this is NOT a taxation problem, it is a SPENDING problem. We have got to quit trying to be the nanny state. Can't feed them, don't breed them. Don't have a cell phone, get a second job or do without. Need to eat, get to work.

I am sick to death of how soft and fat our country has become.

DemolitionMan
12-27-2012, 10:46 PM
Here is what's wrong.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFke1xOaTEA

JimN
12-27-2012, 10:55 PM
Good points JimN - Obama will go down as the worst President in the history of the USA. He's not a leader, he's an egotist!!!

Worse- he a narcissist.

FrankSchwab
12-27-2012, 10:59 PM
Clearly this is NOT a taxation problem, it is a SPENDING problem. We have got to quit trying to be the nanny state. Can't feed them, don't breed them.

Did you actually pay attention to anything above? By far, the two biggest items that the federal government spends money on are retirees and the military. Neither of them fall into your "nanny state" or "can't feed them, don't breed them" categories. Those are great reactionary radio sound-bites, but they aren't the reality of our fiscal crisis.

Do you wanna take a hack at finding $1.3 trillion to cut from the current budget? I posted the numbers above - go for it.

JimN
12-27-2012, 11:06 PM
Personally, I wouldn't mind paying more in taxes.

As far as war, surely we don't NEED any more, but did we NEED WWII? No. Even at 49 I'd gladly saddle back up if war came to our shores.

And that tax rate article is BS. It's the flat tax rate and doesn't even include deductions or exemptions. It's just some flame bate news crap.

Should we have just sat back after Pearl Harbor? To be honest, we wouldn't have had our ships there if we weren't planning to jump in but that would have made us look so weak we would never have recovered. Nobody needs a war. It wasn't brought to the US and Hawaii was only a territory at that time but they attacked our navy, which was an act of war, so we made the declaration.

If someone is stupid enough to try to wage conventional war against the US, all of these civilian guns will come in awfully handy. If this comes from the Middle East, we all know who they'll be aiming at and who will be targeted by those who are their intended victims. If they come here in the same clothes as what they wear in the M.E., it will be a piece of cake for us. Even if they try to blend in, they won't be able to speak English well enough and without an accent to not be suspected.

What we need is for people to buy our own products.

mikeg205
12-27-2012, 11:18 PM
It's a complex issue which has been reviewed by many... here's one whack at it all the way back from 2010. It's not a one time reduction that will work...but over a acceptable period of time we can get there...unfortunately the spending wildfire is almost out of control.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2010/10/how-to-cut-343-billion-from-the-federal-budget

FrankSchwab
12-27-2012, 11:36 PM
Yeah, I disagree with some of their recommendations, but it's a thoughtful stab at the problem.

Unfortunately, it still leaves us with a $1 Trillion deficit each and every year.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 09:57 AM
Yeah, I disagree with some of their recommendations, but it's a thoughtful stab at the problem.

Unfortunately, it still leaves us with a $1 Trillion deficit each and every year.

As long as we start really reducing as opposed to the reducing the increase we can climb out of the whole. But how can we did ourselves out of a hole when businesses won't hire or use capital? No hiring and no capital spend - net result less revenue to D.C.

$112K+ produces the 70%+ of revenue D.C. gets http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html - a bit dated but very close. Here you can put in your AGI or gross to see who you are...gross puts my about 84% AGI puts me at about 77%. Even there I am in the 87% who produce revenue. Upper middle class pays the lions share of taxes and the top pays the rest.

Lions share of family income in my town falls into the 50K - 150K income...just in the last year or so local business has seen a bit of growth. Hire taxes mean these businesses are going to get hit again. http://www.plainfield-il.org/business/demographics.php

It's that bottom 50% - yes there is a demographic there that must be taken care of. But for example the pell grant number needs to be reduced - or program modified. Many of those who get pell grants drop out of college. Social Security and Medicare? Too much fraud and waste. Social security was never meant to be the nest egg for retirement - and most people don't save (bad).

You mentioned military pensions...no way that get's touched - no way no how - we are free because of the brave. The Commander in Chief puts these people in harms way - if that money was spent correctly and at the right rate - we would not need the wounded warriors fund... but that's another discussion.

Unfortunately, my prediction another 5 years of malaise in economic growth - more loss of business - less jobs. IMHO...

Traxx822
12-28-2012, 10:11 AM
As long as we start really reducing as opposed to the reducing the increase we can climb out of the whole. But how can we did ourselves out of a hole when businesses won't hire or use capital? No hiring and no capital spend - net result less revenue to D.C.

$112K+ produces the 70%+ of revenue D.C. gets http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html - a bit dated but very close. Here you can put in your AGI or gross to see who you are...gross puts my about 84% AGI puts me at about 77%. Even there I am in the 87% who produce revenue. Upper middle class pays the lions share of taxes and the top pays the rest.

Lions share of family income in my town falls into the 50K - 150K income...just in the last year or so local business has seen a bit of growth. Hire taxes mean these businesses are going to get hit again. http://www.plainfield-il.org/business/demographics.php

It's that bottom 50% - yes there is a demographic there that must be taken care of. But for example the pell grant number needs to be reduced - or program modified. Many of those who get pell grants drop out of college. Social Security and Medicare? Too much fraud and waste. Social security was never meant to be the nest egg for retirement - and most people don't save (bad).

You mentioned military pensions...no way that get's touched - no way no how - we are free because of the brave. The Commander in Chief puts these people in harms way - if that money was spent correctly and at the right rate - we would not need the wounded warriors fund... but that's another discussion.

Unfortunately, my prediction another 5 years of malaise in economic growth - more loss of business - less jobs. IMHO...


FML These god dam liberals are so insane. How do they get away with it. Seriously. When do we start protesting.

JimN
12-28-2012, 10:25 AM
As long as we start really reducing as opposed to the reducing the increase we can climb out of the whole. But how can we did ourselves out of a hole when businesses won't hire or use capital? No hiring and no capital spend - net result less revenue to D.C.

$112K+ produces the 70%+ of revenue D.C. gets http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html - a bit dated but very close. Here you can put in your AGI or gross to see who you are...gross puts my about 84% AGI puts me at about 77%. Even there I am in the 87% who produce revenue. Upper middle class pays the lions share of taxes and the top pays the rest.

Lions share of family income in my town falls into the 50K - 150K income...just in the last year or so local business has seen a bit of growth. Hire taxes mean these businesses are going to get hit again. http://www.plainfield-il.org/business/demographics.php

It's that bottom 50% - yes there is a demographic there that must be taken care of. But for example the pell grant number needs to be reduced - or program modified. Many of those who get pell grants drop out of college. Social Security and Medicare? Too much fraud and waste. Social security was never meant to be the nest egg for retirement - and most people don't save (bad).

You mentioned military pensions...no way that get's touched - no way no how - we are free because of the brave. The Commander in Chief puts these people in harms way - if that money was spent correctly and at the right rate - we would not need the wounded warriors fund... but that's another discussion.

Unfortunately, my prediction another 5 years of malaise in economic growth - more loss of business - less jobs. IMHO...

Just for a second, imagine that you own a business. Now, imagine that the economy is in constant flux and there's no way to predict if your revenue/orders will change, remain static or, in some cases, end (based on whatever it is that you sell). If you can't be sure that you'll see more orders, would you hire more people? Of course not! That could mean the failure of your business- you can't sustain high wage burden without increasing revenue. Do you take more orders without increasing your staffing level? Only if your current staffing allows for the increase without quality/delivery time making it a problem. If you have a high-demand product or service and you see a roller coaster of demand, how do you deal with this- layoffs, eat the cost of wages when business is slow or hire temps? Add to this, the time and cost of training new/temporary workers- how do you deal with the time lag and the fact that some will just not work out? Those can break a company's reputation and kill any chance of getting repeat business when the problems are bad enough.

Your first paragraph reads like you're blaming businesses for this- have you NOT been paying attention to what business owners have been saying? It's not greed, it's the uncertainty about where things are going that makes a company hold off on hiring, cutting back on wages/benefits/other expenses. Sure, some CEO/CFO/COO wages and compensation packages are exorbitant from where we sit but these aren't handed out without the board knowing about it and being considered "do-able". These, however, are huge corporations and companies, not the smaller/mid-sized ones. Still, incremental overruns can kill any business- a small company that has only a few employees can only do so much business before it's dealing with too much. Not only can the work become too much, the need to buy more inventory, accounts receivables can increase, wages/training can be excessive when overtime is necessary/unplanned (due to some un-forseen event) and then, there's the fact that some customers don't pay on time. Far more businesses are in the position of having to watch their expenses like a hawk than being able to hire more with the intention of making more business for themselves.

It would take a real clairvoyant to be sure of what's coming. Failing that, guessing isn't going to cut it.

JimN
12-28-2012, 10:28 AM
You mentioned military pensions...no way that get's touched - no way no how - we are free because of the brave. The Commander in Chief puts these people in harms way - if that money was spent correctly and at the right rate - we would not need the wounded warriors fund... but that's another discussion.

Unfortunately, my prediction another 5 years of malaise in economic growth - more loss of business - less jobs. IMHO...

It's supposed to be the Commander in Chief AND Congress who puts people in harm's way. Unfortunately, there's not enough transparency or public debate showing exactly what is happening, unless C-Span shows it.

JTNG
12-28-2012, 10:36 AM
http://i.imgur.com/VVC4r.jpg

JimN
12-28-2012, 10:38 AM
FML These god dam liberals are so insane. How do they get away with it. Seriously. When do we start protesting.

How often do you see Conservatives protesting? It's not the majority who protest, it's a much smaller group.

FrankSchwab
12-28-2012, 11:41 AM
FML These god dam liberals are so insane. How do they get away with it. Seriously. When do we start protesting.

Why is your anger so pointedly directed at "liberals"? Who do you consider to be "not a liberal" in the political arena today?

There are few "conservatives" when it comes to the public purse in the political arena today. Both major parties have been complicit in passing unfunded benefit improvements for seniors for short-term political gain (remember the unfunded $40 Billion/year prescription drug program for seniors championed and passed by the majority Republicans and signed by GWB? I do.) Even the Tea Partiers, who IMO are intent on tearing apart the nation to "reduce spending" without actually having any fiscal impact, have unlimited military spending in their platform.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 11:45 AM
Just for a second, imagine that you own a business. Now, imagine that the economy is in constant flux and there's no way to predict if your revenue/orders will change, remain static or, in some cases, end (based on whatever it is that you sell). If you can't be sure that you'll see more orders, would you hire more people? Of course not! That could mean the failure of your business- you can't sustain high wage burden without increasing revenue. Do you take more orders without increasing your staffing level? Only if your current staffing allows for the increase without quality/delivery time making it a problem. If you have a high-demand product or service and you see a roller coaster of demand, how do you deal with this- layoffs, eat the cost of wages when business is slow or hire temps? Add to this, the time and cost of training new/temporary workers- how do you deal with the time lag and the fact that some will just not work out? Those can break a company's reputation and kill any chance of getting repeat business when the problems are bad enough.

Your first paragraph reads like you're blaming businesses for this- have you NOT been paying attention to what business owners have been saying? It's not greed, it's the uncertainty about where things are going that makes a company hold off on hiring, cutting back on wages/benefits/other expenses. Sure, some CEO/CFO/COO wages and compensation packages are exorbitant from where we sit but these aren't handed out without the board knowing about it and being considered "do-able". These, however, are huge corporations and companies, not the smaller/mid-sized ones. Still, incremental overruns can kill any business- a small company that has only a few employees can only do so much business before it's dealing with too much. Not only can the work become too much, the need to buy more inventory, accounts receivables can increase, wages/training can be excessive when overtime is necessary/unplanned (due to some un-forseen event) and then, there's the fact that some customers don't pay on time. Far more businesses are in the position of having to watch their expenses like a hawk than being able to hire more with the intention of making more business for themselves.

It would take a real clairvoyant to be sure of what's coming. Failing that, guessing isn't going to cut it.

#1 - I have been paying attention.

Sorry if first paragraph reads as if blaming business - not meant to. I was pointing to business as being unable to grow because of uncertainty caused by gov't.

My compensation is based on capital spending at small and medium size businesses... that ain't happening. I know you can't be clairvoyant however in the business planning cycle your inputs drive your tactical execution. i.e. if you know tax burden on wages you can budget your overall labor burden as well as benefits burden. You can plan for a revenue stream if you have the cost inputs. Market pressures can be assessed and production/orders can be modified as you go along. However, if you don't know what's something is going to cost why step forward. I am not against any C Level compensation package as long as it is tied to growth of the the company they are running. Small and medium business owners are really on a 100% commission plan.

Regarding lag - you're absolutely right. Dorks in D.C. are pushing growth out at least 6-9 months.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 11:51 AM
Why is your anger so pointedly directed at "liberals"? Who do you consider to be "not a liberal" in the political arena today?

There are few "conservatives" when it comes to the public purse in the political arena today. Both major parties have been complicit in passing unfunded benefit improvements for seniors for short-term political gain (remember the unfunded $40 Billion/year prescription drug program for seniors championed and passed by the majority Republicans and signed by GWB? I do.) Even the Tea Partiers, who IMO are intent on tearing apart the nation to "reduce spending" without actually having any fiscal impact, have unlimited military spending in their platform.

I am on the same bandwagon as TRAXXX - you usually can't have a good discussion with a liberal - while they are protesting conservatives are at work. But I do agree - both parties have been complicit over the last few decades - both republicans and democrats - most public servants are more concerned about re-election than serving. Hell 174K is a hard nut to replace.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 12:03 PM
It's supposed to be the Commander in Chief AND Congress who puts people in harm's way. Unfortunately, there's not enough transparency or public debate showing exactly what is happening, unless C-Span shows it.

^^+1... And I bet we never get to the bottom of Benghazi and having a marine sit in Mexican jail for 4.x months - unconscionable.

Traxx822
12-28-2012, 12:11 PM
Why is your anger so pointedly directed at "liberals"? Who do you consider to be "not a liberal" in the political arena today?

There are few "conservatives" when it comes to the public purse in the political arena today. Both major parties have been complicit in passing unfunded benefit improvements for seniors for short-term political gain (remember the unfunded $40 Billion/year prescription drug program for seniors championed and passed by the majority Republicans and signed by GWB? I do.) Even the Tea Partiers, who IMO are intent on tearing apart the nation to "reduce spending" without actually having any fiscal impact, have unlimited military spending in their platform.


It is pointed at Liberals for good reason. A liberal will jaw you to death about being politically correct and its all their way or the highway. Whenever you try to talk to a liberal they spin anything around and have the media resource to do it. Any opposing view is flamed to rubbish and bigotry.

You want to talk about tea par tiers and Republicans like I am one. If you want my opinion the party system has got to go. That is the root of the problem. The other is money.

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 1Tim 6:10.

Not just themselves with sorrow. Us too; on our behalf.

I could care less for Bush. I voted for Gore. (regret that now) even though I hate Bush. Then McCain then Romney. (regret those as well) So you assume like every other liberal out there. Assume that it is ok to keep giving up our freedoms at the cost of these programs. I was in the Army. You cannot tell me the military needs that much money. In fact they could spend less painting anchors gold on navy ships than providing me with desert gear while in Afghanistan. Which I bought myself. Spending is the issue.

Point i'm making is that selfishness and money are the root of all evil in this issue.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 12:16 PM
It is pointed at Liberals for good reason. A liberal will jaw you to death about being politically correct and its all their way or the highway. Whenever you try to talk to a liberal they spin anything around and have the media resource to do it. Any opposing view is flamed to rubbish and bigotry.

You want to talk about tea par tiers and Republicans like I am one. If you want my opinion the party system has got to go. That is the root of the problem. The other is money.

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 1Tim 6:10.

Not just themselves with sorrow. Us too; on our behalf.

I could care less for Bush. I voted for Gore. (regret that now) even though I hate Bush. Then McCain then Romney. (regret those as well) So you assume like every other liberal out there. Assume that it is ok to keep giving up our freedoms at the cost of these programs. I was in the Army. You cannot tell me the military needs that much money. In fact they could spend less painting anchors gold on navy ships than providing me with desert gear while in Afghanistan. Which I bought myself. Spending is the issue.

Point i'm making is that selfishness and money are the root of all evil in this issue.

You voted for Gore??? one less beer for you...;)

bcd
12-28-2012, 12:25 PM
#1 - I have been paying attention.

Sorry if first paragraph reads as if blaming business - not meant to. I was pointing to business as being unable to grow because of uncertainty caused by gov't.

My compensation is based on capital spending at small and medium size businesses... that ain't happening. I know you can't be clairvoyant however in the business planning cycle your inputs drive your tactical execution. i.e. if you know tax burden on wages you can budget your overall labor burden as well as benefits burden. You can plan for a revenue stream if you have the cost inputs. Market pressures can be assessed and production/orders can be modified as you go along. However, if you don't know what's something is going to cost why step forward. I am not against any C Level compensation package as long as it is tied to growth of the the company they are running. Small and medium business owners are really on a 100% commission plan.

Regarding lag - you're absolutely right. Dorks in D.C. are pushing growth out at least 6-9 months.

Don't forget about them now having to pay for Obamacare too.

FrankSchwab
12-28-2012, 01:12 PM
A liberal will jaw you to death about being politically correct and its all their way or the highway.
Kind of like talking to a rabid Tea Partier...

If you want my opinion the party system has got to go. That is the root of the problem.
You and I are in complete agreement.


I could care less for Bush. I voted for Gore. (regret that now) even though I hate Bush. Then McCain then Romney. (regret those as well)

I voted Perot in '96, not because I thought he had a chance, but because I appreciated his message and wanted to broaden the participation of alternate parties in the political process. McCain in 2000 until he was bested by Shrub, then a third-party candidate in the general election because I couldn't stomach either Gore or Shrub. 2004 was Kerry, because Shrub had proven himself not only incapable but a real and present danger, and in reaction to the disgraceful Rove-ing of Kerry's honorable service. 2008 was Obama, hoping that he was enough of an outsider to keep some of his promises about restoring some of the rights that Shrub had decided I no longer needed. What a disappointment that was. 2012 was third party again, because I knew who Obama was, but Romney was way too squishy to figure out who he was.


So you assume like every other liberal out there. Assume that it is ok to keep giving up our freedoms at the cost of these programs.

I think YOU assume too much. I am enamored of neither the "government can and should solve everyone's problems" philosophy of the current Liberals, nor of the "Government can't and shouldn't solve any problems except those caused by small countries to Exxon" philosophy of the current Conservatives. If there was a politician from the last 50 years that I would vote for today, it would probably be Barry Goldwater, whose conservative principles would get him bounced out of the Republican party today.

/frank

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 02:09 PM
Kind of like talking to a rabid Tea Partier...


You and I are in complete agreement.




I voted Perot in '96, not because I thought he had a chance, but because I appreciated his message and wanted to broaden the participation of alternate parties in the political process. McCain in 2000 until he was bested by Shrub, then a third-party candidate in the general election because I couldn't stomach either Gore or Shrub. 2004 was Kerry, because Shrub had proven himself not only incapable but a real and present danger, and in reaction to the disgraceful Rove-ing of Kerry's honorable service. 2008 was Obama, hoping that he was enough of an outsider to keep some of his promises about restoring some of the rights that Shrub had decided I no longer needed. What a disappointment that was. 2012 was third party again, because I knew who Obama was, but Romney was way too squishy to figure out who he was.


I think YOU assume too much. I am enamored of neither the "government can and should solve everyone's problems" philosophy of the current Liberals, nor of the "Government can't and shouldn't solve any problems except those caused by small countries to Exxon" philosophy of the current Conservatives. If there was a politician from the last 50 years that I would vote for today, it would probably be Barry Goldwater, whose conservative principles would get him bounced out of the Republican party today.

/frank

Don't forget Dr. Ron Paul - a true patriot and constitutionalist... +1 on Barry Goldwater...

JimN
12-28-2012, 02:10 PM
Why is your anger so pointedly directed at "liberals"? Who do you consider to be "not a liberal" in the political arena today?

There are few "conservatives" when it comes to the public purse in the political arena today. Both major parties have been complicit in passing unfunded benefit improvements for seniors for short-term political gain (remember the unfunded $40 Billion/year prescription drug program for seniors championed and passed by the majority Republicans and signed by GWB? I do.) Even the Tea Partiers, who IMO are intent on tearing apart the nation to "reduce spending" without actually having any fiscal impact, have unlimited military spending in their platform.

As I have said & written many times before, I think the extremists in all parties should go pound sand, so the rest can work out some decent legislation. That said, somebody has to watch the chicken coop- if everyone else shifts to one side or the other, the extremists can find themselves where the centrists used to be.

We can't have a "no tax" government because we do have people who can't care for themselves, in the literal sense. Unfortunately, we also have many who 'can't seem to' care for themselves and they have been lumped into the group who really need help. Then, there are those who just WON'T care for themselves and they're the ones I want off of the government teat. It costs a lot of money to run even the smallest government, in a country of 315 Million (and growing). However, I don't know why they have to look for ways to spend money when the number of people who depend on the government keeps growing- I'm referring more to retirees who need help with everything, families who will always be on Welfare/food stamps, etc. People who stay in school do better in life- we all know that. Unfortunately, we have too many in this country who don't know this because they can't read, write, understand basic logic, math and never will because they don't want to. Those people will never stop voting for those who give them handouts and don't force the dependent to finish school, stop drinking/drugging and get out of the gangs/criminal activity they have become accustomed to.

I would like to see the system change to one that REQUIRES improvement by the recipients.

I was watching a TV show about some of MKE's unique places to eat while I was doing some things on the computer. At one point, I realized that I recognized the voice of the person who owns a crepe wagon. I had seen the canopy on his van at one of the job sites I have been working at, but thought it might be for someone else. He's also a carpenter. Turns out, he learned to weld aluminum at a previous carpentry job (or took it upon himself to ask how) and when he & his now-wife decided to start their business, he built the cart, from scratch, painted it, they came up with a name & logo, plan, etc. He built it specifically so it could be partially disassembled and stored in the back of their Dodge mini-van with the canopy strapped to the luggage rack for transport. They use all natural ingredients and instead of the normal batter, they use garbonzo beans to make the crepes. They shop at farmer's markets and they do pretty well at it.

This is pretty cool, on its own. It gets better. He's not even from this country- he came here from Germany in about 2003. The worst part- we have tens of millions of people who were born in this country, never spoke a language other than English and they "can't get a job to support themselves" or read, for that matter.

I call shenanigans!

JimN
12-28-2012, 02:13 PM
I also think the mainstream media needs to change, completely. I don't want them to be the de-facto source of information for most people if they continue to be biased so heavily. FACTS, not propaganda!

neil.anderson63
12-28-2012, 02:30 PM
I just read this whole thread... I can only re-think how disappointed I am in the leaders of our country. Wasted opportunities, time, energy and funds. Makes me sick! :mad:

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 02:39 PM
As I have said & written many times before, I think the extremists in all parties should go pound sand, so the rest can work out some decent legislation. That said, somebody has to watch the chicken coop- if everyone else shifts to one side or the other, the extremists can find themselves where the centrists used to be.

We can't have a "no tax" government because we do have people who can't care for themselves, in the literal sense. Unfortunately, we also have many who 'can't seem to' care for themselves and they have been lumped into the group who really need help. Then, there are those who just WON'T care for themselves and they're the ones I want off of the government teat. It costs a lot of money to run even the smallest government, in a country of 315 Million (and growing). However, I don't know why they have to look for ways to spend money when the number of people who depend on the government keeps growing- I'm referring more to retirees who need help with everything, families who will always be on Welfare/food stamps, etc. People who stay in school do better in life- we all know that. Unfortunately, we have too many in this country who don't know this because they can't read, write, understand basic logic, math and never will because they don't want to. Those people will never stop voting for those who give them handouts and don't force the dependent to finish school, stop drinking/drugging and get out of the gangs/criminal activity they have become accustomed to.

I would like to see the system change to one that REQUIRES improvement by the recipients.

I was watching a TV show about some of MKE's unique places to eat while I was doing some things on the computer. At one point, I realized that I recognized the voice of the person who owns a crepe wagon. I had seen the canopy on his van at one of the job sites I have been working at, but thought it might be for someone else. He's also a carpenter. Turns out, he learned to weld aluminum at a previous carpentry job (or took it upon himself to ask how) and when he & his now-wife decided to start their business, he built the cart, from scratch, painted it, they came up with a name & logo, plan, etc. He built it specifically so it could be partially disassembled and stored in the back of their Dodge mini-van with the canopy strapped to the luggage rack for transport. They use all natural ingredients and instead of the normal batter, they use garbonzo beans to make the crepes. They shop at farmer's markets and they do pretty well at it.

This is pretty cool, on its own. It gets better. He's not even from this country- he came here from Germany in about 2003. The worst part- we have tens of millions of people who were born in this country, never spoke a language other than English and they "can't get a job to support themselves" or read, for that matter.

I call shenanigans!

^^+1 -- lol on word choice...but noted. ;)

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 02:48 PM
I also think the mainstream media needs to change, completely. I don't want them to be the de-facto source of information for most people if they continue to be biased so heavily. FACTS, not propaganda!

Rarely watch the news - I watch CNBC and Fox in the morning... then go do my research when I have the time. So much for the chronicling of events, the fact finding missions and watch dog principles of journalists.... oh I guess that why you call them pundits now. Too bad the word pundit includes expertise in its meaning.

Case in point even in non-political reporting, I read an article that we (electorate) should not be complaining about the whole fiscal cliff issue...the market is up this year... totally shocked my this article I quickly checked my 401K accounts. Sure enough I am still below my 2007 values when the S&P, Dow were at their highs and unemployment was at its low of 4.5%.

I am with JimN - enough with all the BUlk SHenanigans already!!!

FrankSchwab
12-28-2012, 02:58 PM
...biased so heavily...

Which way do you believe they are biased? I'd think that when the largest owner of Radio Stations and Billboards in the US is Clear Channel Communications, owned by Bain Capital (Mitt Romney's place of business), and the most-watched TV network in the US is FOX, known for its reactionary-conservative-slanted news channel, that you must be complaining about the conservative bias. I'm guessing that's not the case, however, because the concept of "liberal media bias" is such a heavy Fox News and Republican talking point.

In words, I completely agree with you. The bias of the media is a problem when it comes to setting the agenda for the country - and for that reason, I include non-mainstream media news in my watching habits. Ever perused foreign news organizations like Al-Jazeera for a different take on the world? It's quite an eye opener.

JimN
12-28-2012, 03:17 PM
Which way do you believe they are biased? I'd think that when the largest owner of Radio Stations and Billboards in the US is Clear Channel Communications, owned by Bain Capital (Mitt Romney's place of business), and the most-watched TV network in the US is FOX, known for its reactionary-conservative-slanted news channel, that you must be complaining about the conservative bias. I'm guessing that's not the case, however, because the concept of "liberal media bias" is such a heavy Fox News and Republican talking point.

In words, I completely agree with you. The bias of the media is a problem when it comes to setting the agenda for the country - and for that reason, I include non-mainstream media news in my watching habits. Ever perused foreign news organizations like Al-Jazeera for a different take on the world? It's quite an eye opener.

You're completely forgetting NPR, NBC and the other left-leaning outlets that have such large audiences (remember, Jeff Immelt is the head of GE and that's the parent company of NBC). How many Conservative teachers do you know? How many union members do you know? Look at the election results from the most liberal states- they tend to be pretty heavily populated.

I know several people who came here from other countries. One, works for a local computer store group and the current location is next door to a grocery store that has a huge number of MKE public school teachers. One jumped all over him for listening to Conservative radio and then, once their discussion got to the part about taxes and income, proceeded to tell him that he doesn't have the right to spend his money as he sees fit. She and her husband, OTOH, bank everything she earns and live on his, using her benefits.

He asked of she thought Communism is a good system and she said "Yes". He responed with "It doesn't work! Don't you recognize my accent? I'm from Russia!". The kid next to me in High School freshman Algebra came here in '69, when the Soviets invaded Prague. The teacher asked if he would want to do a short Q&A, and he went up to the front of the class. Someone asked how they lived and he said, "We didn't. We existed.". His father had been one of the heads of the Physics Dept at the University of Prague. Mike is a brilliant guy- went on to work for NASA. After freshman year, he no longer took science and math classes at our school- there was nothing for him there, except independent study. The last three years, he studied these courses at Marquette University.

The one thing I agree with about the way the Communists ran things- they REQUIRED people to go to school.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 03:35 PM
Which way do you believe they are biased? I'd think that when the largest owner of Radio Stations and Billboards in the US is Clear Channel Communications, owned by Bain Capital (Mitt Romney's place of business), and the most-watched TV network in the US is FOX, known for its reactionary-conservative-slanted news channel, that you must be complaining about the conservative bias. I'm guessing that's not the case, however, because the concept of "liberal media bias" is such a heavy Fox News and Republican talking point.

In words, I completely agree with you. The bias of the media is a problem when it comes to setting the agenda for the country - and for that reason, I include non-mainstream media news in my watching habits. Ever perused foreign news organizations like Al-Jazeera for a different take on the world? It's quite an eye opener.

Frank - you're just screwin' with us on this one right? ABC, NBC, CBS, NPR, do I dare MSNBC, New York Times...etc.... even though you indicate a reactionary-conservative slant for FOX - for some reason it has the highest ratings even over the Clinton News Network. BTW ( I don't care which way Robin Meade leans ;) ) - Fox programs almost always include the views of the left - they may not always pick a strong spokesperson. However, Juan Williams was booted from NPR for political commentary. Many times he strongly debates against the right on Fox as well does Bob Beckel....yet they have not been fired...hmmmmm.....

Frank here you have run off the tracks...

GoneBoatN
12-28-2012, 05:30 PM
...The one thing I agree with about the way the Communists ran things- they REQUIRED people to go to school...


Makes me think of the old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

However, yes education should be available to anyone and everyone willing to make good use of it.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 05:37 PM
Makes me think of the old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

However, yes education should be available to anyone and everyone willing to make good use of it.

^^ NCLB....

JimN
12-28-2012, 06:11 PM
Makes me think of the old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

However, yes education should be available to anyone and everyone willing to make good use of it.

How is our public education system NOT available to everyone who wants to go? The problem is, too many would rather just blow off school so they can collect from the government.

FrankSchwab
12-28-2012, 06:18 PM
Frank - you're just screwin' with us on this one right? ABC, NBC, CBS, NPR, do I dare MSNBC, New York Times...etc....

So what's your problem - that there ARE left-leaning media organizations, that there are too many left leaning media organizations, that they have too much sway over the people who disagree with you, or what? Frankly, I celebrate the left-leaning media as much as I celebrate the right-leaning media as much as I celebrate the independent media (e.g. as I mentioned before, Al-Jazeera. Ever watch it?).

What I hate is the whining that is more prevalent from the right-leaning media about the bias of the general media - it's just unseemly, especially coming from the network that's #1 in cable news shows. "We're #1, but too many people pay attention to the other guys". Really? In the world that we live in, that's what they choose to complain about?

There's nothing more audience-driven than news and the media in general - if people don't like your show, they won't watch it. Obviously, there's a bunch of people who like the Fox News channel, as well there's a bunch of people who like MSNBC. They watch it because it provides them the news and point of view they want. If there's a "liberal bias" to the media it's because that's the media people want. What would you do - tell people what they can or can't watch?

GoneBoatN
12-28-2012, 06:37 PM
^^ NCLB....

Yea, that was a load of crap. 100% unfunded mandate. Worked well, NOT.

GoneBoatN
12-28-2012, 06:49 PM
How is our public education system NOT available to everyone who wants to go? The problem is, too many would rather just blow off school so they can collect from the government.

I was thinking secondary education. You would be lucky to get a job at Walmart with only a high school deploma. Don't take this comment wrong. I think "the trades" are equally important. Just my point is that training, direction and commitment (by the individual) are needed for success.

Check out the German Education system - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany as an example.

Although this is somewhat off topic, it also applies as better education/training is part of what is needed to put this country back on track.

Also, the cost of seconday/post education is putting it beyond the reach of many individuals. Sure, the poor get assistance, the upper class can afford it - the middle class get raped again.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 06:54 PM
So what's your problem - that there ARE left-leaning media organizations, that there are too many left leaning media organizations, that they have too much sway over the people who disagree with you, or what? Frankly, I celebrate the left-leaning media as much as I celebrate the right-leaning media as much as I celebrate the independent media (e.g. as I mentioned before, Al-Jazeera. Ever watch it?).

What I hate is the whining that is more prevalent from the right-leaning media about the bias of the general media - it's just unseemly, especially coming from the network that's #1 in cable news shows. "We're #1, but too many people pay attention to the other guys". Really? In the world that we live in, that's what they choose to complain about?

There's nothing more audience-driven than news and the media in general - if people don't like your show, they won't watch it. Obviously, there's a bunch of people who like the Fox News channel, as well there's a bunch of people who like MSNBC. They watch it because it provides them the news and point of view they want. If there's a "liberal bias" to the media it's because that's the media people want. What would you do - tell people what they can or can't watch?

My problem? is that the lack of getting the job done. You seem to prop up kicking the can down the road. The left biased media vilify and admonish the conservatives and tea party members. This evening the big "O" spoke - so much for leadership. But no admonishment by the either the left leaning media or Fox. My problem is that my family income and those above me pay 70% of the income tax. I have to pay 100% of my kids college... no pell grants and no other benefits that those who pay no tax enjoy. My problem - no mortgage bailout when I was laid off in 2009 because my payment was current...my problem - I was unable to get a mortgage bailout because my wife and I were responsible and had savings. My problem - those who were irresponsible got the bailout.

My customers who are small and medium are getting sodomized. They don't know what's coming so they are unable to grow their businesses. The business I frequent are at risk, if the middle class gets taxed more - look to see more small to medium businesses shutting their doors. My problem is that those employees in those businesses will not have income...because those making $174K the congress and the president who makes $400K don't get it.

You bring a good argument Frank but your assertions are flawed.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 06:56 PM
Yea, that was a load of crap. 100% unfunded mandate. Worked well, NOT.

But is a big PITA who work in the system - those who are below a certain income level get grants...so the poor get every chance to go and get an education...

GoneBoatN
12-28-2012, 07:21 PM
But is a big PITA who work in the system - those who are below a certain income level get grants...so the poor get every chance to go and get an education...


While the middle class, who represent the largest section, struggle to stay where they are at - not to mention better themselves which is quickly becoming unrealistic. Hugely detrimental to our country in a "global economy" era.

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 07:21 PM
@Frank... oh hell...let's have a beer...I'm in water first... Hit it... :) - Thanks for the spirited debate. I just get so incensed when I know the people on this forum worked for everything they have...

I'll bring the beer :) - let's go ski forget this garbage... :)

FrankSchwab
12-28-2012, 07:34 PM
@Frank... oh hell...let's have a beer...I'm in water first... Hit it... :) - Thanks for the spirited debate. I just get so incensed when I know the people on this forum worked for everything they have...

I'll bring the beer :) - let's go ski forget this garbage... :)

Garbage? I'm having fun here - this has been a great exchange. But I'll take you up on that beer the next time I'm out your way (and the temperature is up to my standards).

I'll agree with the "worked for everything they have" angle - I just wish that the world agreed with me as to what the real problem is, and stopped arguing over inconsequential things. ;) My favorite saying: "Arguing with an engineer is like Mud wrestling with a pig - you'll never win, and pretty soon you figure out that the pig likes it". As always, the requisite XKCD (http://xkcd.com/386/).

mikeg205
12-28-2012, 07:36 PM
Lol Frank... time to go to the It's Friday Time for Drink Thread. :)

GoneBoatN
12-28-2012, 08:45 PM
... My favorite saying: "Arguing with an engineer is like Mud wrestling with a pig - you'll never win, and pretty soon you figure out that the pig likes it"...

That's a good one and oh so true. :) Oink, oink.

JimN
12-29-2012, 12:01 AM
I was thinking secondary education. You would be lucky to get a job at Walmart with only a high school deploma. Don't take this comment wrong. I think "the trades" are equally important. Just my point is that training, direction and commitment (by the individual) are needed for success.

Check out the German Education system - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany as an example.

Although this is somewhat off topic, it also applies as better education/training is part of what is needed to put this country back on track.

Also, the cost of seconday/post education is putting it beyond the reach of many individuals. Sure, the poor get assistance, the upper class can afford it - the middle class get raped again.

Look at the data- a lot of kids aren't even bothering to graduate from High School. In MKE, the public school system has some of the worst test scores in the country, >45% dropout rate and unemployment among black males is in the 28% range. The teenage pregnancy rate finally dropped for the first time in years and people wre killing each other all over town, mostly in a 5 square mile area. Do they talk about stopping the killing? Sure- the black community (for lack of a better word) calls for the police department to do something one minute, then, when a woman is beaten by a cop for being a complete POS (it's on camera), the same people call for the police chief's removal. They don't want to cooperate on a good day, why should they expect the PD to solve their problems?

But, I digress.

Personally, and I may have posted something like this before, I think teh MKE school system should put large groups of students in a large hall and give them something to think about. First, they ask them to raise their hand if they don't want to graduate. They send those kids to a different room for their session. The ones who want to stay are gathered on one room and they ask more questions about what they want to do, with congratulations for wanting to do something good. They're basically on the right track, but might need to get some specific goal-setting skills, or something tailored to what they want to do later. The ones who don't want to stay should be asked if they just don't want to be there, if they want to do something specific (maybe some kind of trade) or if they just want to go to work. The ones who say they want to be the next rapper, sports star or Puff Daddy will be told, and it will be reinforced, that the chances are slim to none that this will happen and asked "what do you want to do in case that doesn't work out?". We have a $40M tech school that was donated by Jane Pettit (daughter of Harry Bradley, as in Allen-Bradley). Nice school, in theory. The school system decided to design it themselves and it has a ton of wasted space. The MKE Police Department has people there full time because of all of the fights. I think more kids should be taught a trade if they don't want to go through the usual school work. There's no point in making kids try to learn what they aren't interested in. Sometimes, a light goes on, but it's often a waste of time, effort and money.

Speaking of money, the MKE Public School System budget was $1.18 BILLION last year and every year, the enrollment declines because some kids are bused to the suburbs (causing problems of their own for those suburbs) some drop out and others go to charter or voucher schools. The budget for the whole city was $1.4 Billion.

If the US won't be a major part of the World's manufacturing, it will have to be part of banking, science/engineering/technology and those who aren't as intelligent/educated/motivated will be in the service sector. The problem with all of this is that dropouts will have no chance at a decent job because anything else will be far beyond their skills/education.

mikeg205
12-29-2012, 12:14 AM
Look at the data- a lot of kids aren't even bothering to graduate from High School. In MKE, the public school system has some of the worst test scores in the country, >45% dropout rate and unemployment among black males is in the 28% range. The teenage pregnancy rate finally dropped for the first time in years and people wre killing each other all over town, mostly in a 5 square mile area. Do they talk about stopping the killing? Sure- the black community (for lack of a better word) calls for the police department to do something one minute, then, when a woman is beaten by a cop for being a complete POS (it's on camera), the same people call for the police chief's removal. They don't want to cooperate on a good day, why should they expect the PD to solve their problems?

But, I digress.

Personally, and I may have posted something like this before, I think teh MKE school system should put large groups of students in a large hall and give them something to think about. First, they ask them to raise their hand if they don't want to graduate. They send those kids to a different room for their session. The ones who want to stay are gathered on one room and they ask more questions about what they want to do, with congratulations for wanting to do something good. They're basically on the right track, but might need to get some specific goal-setting skills, or something tailored to what they want to do later. The ones who don't want to stay should be asked if they just don't want to be there, if they want to do something specific (maybe some kind of trade) or if they just want to go to work. The ones who say they want to be the next rapper, sports star or Puff Daddy will be told, and it will be reinforced, that the chances are slim to none that this will happen and asked "what do you want to do in case that doesn't work out?". We have a $40M tech school that was donated by Jane Pettit (daughter of Harry Bradley, as in Allen-Bradley). Nice school, in theory. The school system decided to design it themselves and it has a ton of wasted space. The MKE Police Department has people there full time because of all of the fights. I think more kids should be taught a trade if they don't want to go through the usual school work. There's no point in making kids try to learn what they aren't interested in. Sometimes, a light goes on, but it's often a waste of time, effort and money.

Speaking of money, the MKE Public School System budget was $1.18 BILLION last year and every year, the enrollment declines because some kids are bused to the suburbs (causing problems of their own for those suburbs) some drop out and others go to charter or voucher schools. The budget for the whole city was $1.4 Billion.

If the US won't be a major part of the World's manufacturing, it will have to be part of banking, science/engineering/technology and those who aren't as intelligent/educated/motivated will be in the service sector. The problem with all of this is that dropouts will have no chance at a decent job because anything else will be far beyond their skills/education.

JimN - too bad the good mind trust is in this forum.. you can be President and I will be speaker and senate majority---then we can get shenanigans done... ;)

FrankSchwab
12-29-2012, 12:34 AM
JimN - too bad the good mind trust is in this forum.. you can be President and I will be speaker and senate majority---then we can get shenanigans done... ;)

Hey, I get the feeling I'm getting cut out here... :D

2RLAKE
12-29-2012, 08:24 AM
That's a good one and oh so true. :) Oink, oink.

as an engineer I'll take that as a compliment!

JimN
12-29-2012, 10:02 AM
http://www.ammoland.com/2012/12/28/fleeing-socialism-french-actor-gerard-depardieu-wants-his-freedom-back/#axzz2GSAFvWoy

Just sayin'.

JimN
12-29-2012, 10:03 AM
as an engineer I'll take that as a compliment!

Q- How can you tell if someone is an engineer?
A- They stare at their shoes.

Q- How can you tell if someone is an extroverted engineer?
A- They stare at your shoes.

:D

2RLAKE
12-29-2012, 12:21 PM
Q- How can you tell if someone is an engineer?
A- They stare at their shoes.

Q- How can you tell if someone is an extroverted engineer?
A- They stare at your shoes.

:D

ouch ...

Bouyhead
12-29-2012, 12:30 PM
Kind of like talking to a rabid Tea Partier...


You and I are in complete agreement.




I voted Perot in '96, not because I thought he had a chance, but because I appreciated his message and wanted to broaden the participation of alternate parties in the political process. McCain in 2000 until he was bested by Shrub, then a third-party candidate in the general election because I couldn't stomach either Gore or Shrub. 2004 was Kerry, because Shrub had proven himself not only incapable but a real and present danger, and in reaction to the disgraceful Rove-ing of Kerry's honorable service. 2008 was Obama, hoping that he was enough of an outsider to keep some of his promises about restoring some of the rights that Shrub had decided I no longer needed. What a disappointment that was. 2012 was third party again, because I knew who Obama was, but Romney was way too squishy to figure out who he was.



/frank

Whew, I thought I was the only one on this site that went that way in 08';)

JimN
12-29-2012, 12:33 PM
ouch ...

No offense- I went to an engineering school and most of my friends are engineers of one kind, or another.

JimN
12-29-2012, 12:35 PM
Whew, I thought I was the only one on this site that went that way in 08';)

Obama started talking about re-distribution of wealth about 2 weeks into his campaign. I liked what he had to say, at first. Then, I heard him talking about these other things that I'm firmly against and I tossed the anchor overboard.

JimN
12-29-2012, 01:52 PM
To those of you who voted for him, KMA!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/obama-pay-raise-congress_n_2377714.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

mikeg205
12-29-2012, 02:44 PM
To those of you who voted for him, KMA!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/obama-pay-raise-congress_n_2377714.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

I'm with you... how dare they get raises...what have they done right.... my income fell 75% in 2009 - never recovered - I am in line with what I was making in 2001-2002 and the counting in inflation making less.

There goes my day! :mad: - Here we go again - more spending.... :mad:

1redTA
12-29-2012, 03:46 PM
I saw the raises of senior members of the federal government today... I just wonder if the pay freeze still applies to my lowely salary as a "govument" employE

1redTA
12-29-2012, 03:47 PM
by the way I don't mind doing what it takes to help but if those bastards get raises I sure as hell deserve one

JimN
12-29-2012, 06:37 PM
I'm with you... how dare they get raises...what have they done right.... my income fell 75% in 2009 - never recovered - I am in line with what I was making in 2001-2002 and the counting in inflation making less.

There goes my day! :mad: - Here we go again - more spending.... :mad:

I wish it was from The Onion, too. Sorry.

mikeg205
12-29-2012, 09:07 PM
I wish it was from The Onion, too. Sorry.

Wrote all my congressman about this...hope everyone else does too...

Bouyhead
12-29-2012, 09:27 PM
[QUOTE=JimN;898609]Obama started talking about re-distribution of wealth about 2 weeks into his campaign. I liked what he had to say, at first. Then, I heard him talking about these other things that I'm firmly against and I tossed the anchor overboard.[/

Exactly, and that's how you should vote. That's how I cast my ballot: a couple of hot button topics I'm for or against. BTW, last I checked Obama IS a politician isn't he?

Skipper
12-29-2012, 10:00 PM
I wonder if those of us in the military will get paid end of month January? It seems like the politicians always manage to give themselves large pay raises while stopping pay to the military first. I have an idea how to cut spending, stop paying the politicians.

mikeg205
12-29-2012, 11:48 PM
I wonder if those of us in the military will get paid end of month January? It seems like the politicians always manage to give themselves large pay raises while stopping pay to the military first. I have an idea how to cut spending, stop paying the politicians.

and yet another reason to be disgusted with the dopes in D.C. --> they also have forgotten why we are free... :mad::mad: My next vote is to fire who ever is in office...regardless of the outcome. My thoughtful vote in November 2012 was about as useful as stepping on a rake... doh!! :mad::mad:

2RLAKE
12-30-2012, 08:09 AM
I wonder if those of us in the military will get paid end of month January? It seems like the politicians always manage to give themselves large pay raises while stopping pay to the military first. I have an idea how to cut spending, stop paying the politicians.

Completely agree ... Great point

fskof
12-30-2012, 09:19 AM
Hoping to get your tax refund soon? Don't hold your breath. This will hurt the middle class the most who depend on there tax return's every year!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fiscal-cliff-could-put-tax-214400936.html

fskof
12-30-2012, 09:24 AM
To those of you who voted for him, KMA!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/28/obama-pay-raise-congress_n_2377714.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Isnt it interesting that this news was released at 5:23pm on a friday of a holiday weekend when everyone is too busy to notice it. We need to keep an eye on what these scumbags are doing during the holiday!

JimN
12-30-2012, 10:00 AM
Hoping to get your tax refund soon? Don't hold your breath. This will hurt the middle class the most who depend on there tax return's every year!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/fiscal-cliff-could-put-tax-214400936.html

While I can understand someone using a large refund as a kind of saving plan, it's not great money management WRT making enough to live on, IMO. They could have changed their exemption to allow getting the money through the year to use and making sure they maximize their deductions to ensure that they won't have to pay at tax time.

Ben
12-30-2012, 10:42 AM
While I can understand someone using a large refund as a kind of saving plan, it's not great money management WRT making enough to live on, IMO. They could have changed their exemption to allow getting the money through the year to use and making sure they maximize their deductions to ensure that they won't have to pay at tax time.

Agree, but I think you are over assuming the ability / comprehension of many. Another place we have failed to educate or others have failed to become involved themselves vs relying on others --> the concept isn't hard and involves very simple math, yet I'm sure many would give you a deer in the headlights face if you tried to explain....

fskof
12-30-2012, 01:24 PM
While I can understand someone using a large refund as a kind of saving plan, it's not great money management WRT making enough to live on, IMO. They could have changed their exemption to allow getting the money through the year to use and making sure they maximize their deductions to ensure that they won't have to pay at tax time.

Agree, but I think you are over assuming the ability / comprehension of many. Another place we have failed to educate or others have failed to become involved themselves vs relying on others --> the concept isn't hard and involves very simple math, yet I'm sure many would give you a deer in the headlights face if you tried to explain....


I agree with both of you but I do know people that depend on that tax return to help pay x-mas bills or property taxes. Not the best finacial planning but for some its all they have.

1redTA
12-30-2012, 02:43 PM
it figures the only thing passed before a "fiscal cliff" is a pay raise

JimN
12-30-2012, 02:56 PM
I agree with both of you but I do know people that depend on that tax return to help pay x-mas bills or property taxes. Not the best finacial planning but for some its all they have.

The refund doesn't coincide with Christmas, but property tax may be paid with the refund if they file early and pay the tax out of pocket instead of escrowing the money. I guess I could see doing that but I would rather be able to use that money through the year.

fskof
12-30-2012, 06:02 PM
You would be surprised how many people will spend the next eight months paying off there christmas debt because everything was placed on credit.

Voodoo
12-30-2012, 07:55 PM
You would be surprised how many people will spend the next eight months paying off there christmas dept because everything was placed on credit.

Christmas dept...wish I had a Christmas dept under my control. Spelling, a lost skill. Alas, our educational system is at risk -- yet another "entitlement" program threatened.

voodoo

mikeg205
12-31-2012, 06:04 PM
only one thing to post... hey D.C......

GoneBoatN
01-01-2013, 08:37 PM
My snowboard:

mikeg205
01-01-2013, 08:57 PM
My snowboard:

outstanding... you went up the mountain and boarded down...at least you accomplished something.. ;)

JimN
01-01-2013, 09:01 PM
You didn't do that.

Just sayin'.

mikeg205
01-01-2013, 09:08 PM
You didn't do that.

Just sayin'.

lol...great response Jim... busted out laughin... ;)

02ProstarSammyD
01-04-2013, 12:30 PM
Just opened my paycheck today..............not happy. Between taxes and my insurance going to crap took close to a 400/month hit. Thanks Obama

Bouyhead
01-04-2013, 01:09 PM
Just opened my paycheck today..............not happy. Between taxes and my insurance going to crap took close to a 400/month hit. Thanks Obama

I'll just thank ALL of them. "Them" being the politicians.

-V-
01-05-2013, 04:32 PM
because of everything, military will not see a pay raise till march and with the new taxes we are still taking a pay cut.


not happy.

mikeg205
01-05-2013, 05:44 PM
because of everything, military will not see a pay raise till march and with the new taxes we are still taking a pay cut.


not happy.

President writes an executive order for a pay raise for his cronies it will probably stick when it gets forgotten about ...but neglects the front liners... and those who may have to go to the front line... instead of Commander in Chief...the I don't care about anyone else then me in chief - pshaw on the administration...

JimN
01-05-2013, 07:03 PM
President writes an executive order for a pay raise for his cronies it will probably stick when it gets forgotten about ...but neglects the front liners... and those who may have to go to the front line... instead of Commander in Chief...the I don't care about anyone else then me in chief - pshaw on the administration...

"Pshaw"? Pretty strong words for someone from Joliet, I'd say.:D

mikeg205
01-05-2013, 07:18 PM
"Pshaw"? Pretty strong words for someone from Joliet, I'd say.:D

I voted against him... and I can't leave this deep blue state as much as I would like... Actually I live Plainfield...so even worse... :D

GoneBoatN
01-07-2013, 02:19 PM
Brief summary of Tax code changes made while our infamous government leadership made while adverting the Fiscal Cliff:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cracking-2013-tax-code-174449741.html

How good of them. Remember this (and their self voted pay raise) about your incumbent (Democrat or Republican) next time you are at the voting polls.