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jakethebt
10-02-2012, 09:19 PM
Well.. first time winterization of an LT1. I have read tons of posts and modified Eastie's (JimN?) checklist and supply list to be specific to the LT1. I have chosen to drain the block, fill with antifreeze and dry block again as it seems a bit more fool proof for noobies and meets all concerns. I have also re-orderd the checklist a bit so you can go right down the list in order. So... have a look and let me know what you think.

mikeg205
10-02-2012, 09:32 PM
Well.. first time winterization of an LT1. I have read tons of posts and modified Eastie's (JimN?) checklist and supply list to be specific to the LT1. I have chosen antifreeze vs dry block as it seems a bit more fool proof for noobies. I have also re-orderd them a bit so you can go right down the list in order. So... have a look and let me know what you think.

I would recommend VR1 Synthetic 20w50 or Royal Purple HPS 20w50. 1996 I believe still a flat tappet engine.

1redTA
10-02-2012, 09:34 PM
I would recommend VR1 Synthetic 20w50 or Royal Purple HPS 20w50. 1996 I believe still a flat tappet engine.

the LT1 is a roller engine :)

jakethebt
10-02-2012, 09:37 PM
I had a hard time just finding 20W50. Only brand I could find was valvoline. I was hoping for a choice or two. Maybe Mobil1. This was just this past spring. Maybe this fall I will find a better selection.

1redTA
10-02-2012, 09:39 PM
I had a hard time just finding 20W50. Only brand I could find was valvoline. I was hoping for a choice or two. Maybe Mobil1. This was just this past spring. Maybe this fall I will find a better selection.

i would run good 10w30 on an LT1 the bearing clearances do not warrant 50W oil

mikeg205
10-02-2012, 09:47 PM
the LT1 is a roller engine :)

Cool - wasn't sure...was looking it up and found flat tapped on '94s - would still run VR1 Synthetic/Royal Purple

jakethebt
10-02-2012, 09:55 PM
i would run good 10w30 on an LT1 the bearing clearances do not warrant 50W oil

Everything that I can find say 20w50.

Oil was about the last thing I figured we would be talking about after posting the winterization list... I guess you guys think the tasks, order, etc are ok?

Ben
10-02-2012, 10:33 PM
I don't use antifreeze on mine. Was told its bad for the alum heads. Assuming you are using rv stuff, not real antifreeze which would be un tree huggerish.
Also i think I've been using 15/40 for a while now.

ricford
10-02-2012, 11:14 PM
X2 on the antifreeze. I've heard the plumbing antifreeze is hard on the aluminum heads. I leave my LT-1 dry.

mikeg205
10-03-2012, 07:30 AM
Everything that I can find say 20w50.

Oil was about the last thing I figured we would be talking about after posting the winterization list... I guess you guys think the tasks, order, etc are ok?

order looks good...to me at least...

Ski-me
10-03-2012, 09:28 AM
Jake, well done. It's now, that time of year and have yet to winterize my LT1 myself....just keep bringing it to the dealer. I do have an appointment in a few weeks to winterize, new impellar and change tranny for $500 so quite a bit. After reading your info, it doesn't look too hard.

Appreciate you doing/modifying a good procedure list.....it will definitely help!

RV antifreeze be OK?

JimN
10-03-2012, 09:37 AM
Jake, well done. It's now, that time of year and have yet to winterize my LT1 myself....just keep bringing it to the dealer. I do have an appointment in a few weeks to winterize, new impellar and change tranny for $500 so quite a bit. After reading your info, it doesn't look too hard.

Appreciate you doing/modifying a good procedure list.....it will definitely help!

RV antifreeze be OK?

What is included for $500?

SP Maristar
10-03-2012, 09:47 AM
Thank you Jake for two excellent write-ups on LT1 winterization. I will be performing my first winterization soon, and specifics for the LT1 are very helpful. The supply list with part numbers is especially handy. Nice job.

Jason.H.
10-03-2012, 09:55 AM
RV anitfreeze is not good with aluminum. I would just leave it dry.

JimN
10-03-2012, 10:20 AM
I didn't see anything on those lists about removing the hull plug(s), putting them in a plastic bag and attaching them to the steering wheel or throttle. They can be put in a cup holder, but that allows for them being moved and mis-placed. If the boat somehow gets wet and the plug(s) aren't out, bad things happen.

RV anti-freeze is bad for the heads. This was hammered into our heads at MC training every time I went. It may not happen after one time, but it's not worth risking, IMO.

If no anti-freeze is used, remove the hoses on the engine at their lowest points and turn them so any water in them can drain out. Crank the engine to clear the raw water pump or loosen the cover plate, to allow any water that's above it to drain out.

At some point, the bearings and brakes on the trailer need to be serviced- at least check them, annually if the boat is trailered frequently.

mikeg205
10-03-2012, 10:25 AM
All new RV anti-freeze has been reformulated to not corrode aluminum...at least that's what they claim on their websites.

redraider08
10-03-2012, 12:44 PM
I've got an 2000 X-Star with the 310 hp engine, will all the part #'s be the same? Thanks!

Rockman
10-03-2012, 01:09 PM
Jake,

Thanks for doing this...was going to start my own when winterizing our 190 in a few weeks but since you started this already... :D

I planned on running RV antifreeze thru the motor but if it is bad (new versions of anitfreeze included), then what is the best way to ensure I get all water out of the block? Hook up a small attachment to a shop vac once all water has drained out just to be sure or ???

A buddy of mine used to winterize his 275 hp but all he did was pull off all the hoses and and remove any plugs where water would be trapped and that was it. He never had a problem with the blcok freezing but his method never seemed full proof.



Mike-May be calling you over for a few beers when I winterize ours...;)

mikeg205
10-03-2012, 01:18 PM
Jake,

Thanks for doing this...was going to start my own when winterizing our 190 in a few weeks but since you started this already... :D

I planned on running RV antifreeze thru the motor but if it is bad (new versions of anitfreeze included), then what is the best way to ensure I get all water out of the block? Hook up a small attachment to a shop vac once all water has drained out just to be sure or ???

A buddy of mine used to winterize his 275 hp but all he did was pull off all the hoses and and remove any plugs where water would be trapped and that was it. He never had a problem with the blcok freezing but his method never seemed full proof.



Mike-May be calling you over for a few beers when I winterize ours...;)

Always open for a few beers - best way to drain is take out all hoses and drain plugs and take boat for a town on hilly roads... I do recommend spinning some antifreeze in water re-circulation pump...

Too many friends with boats have to replace water pumps in spring 'cuz bearing was weeping - All it takes is a little water in the right place - especially if the boat will be stored outside..

Ski-me
10-03-2012, 01:41 PM
What is included for $500?

Change engine oil, change tranny oil, change impellar and blow out engine/heater/shower lines. I think that's about it. I don't think they fog the engine either.....

captain planet
10-03-2012, 02:14 PM
Everything that I can find say 20w50.

Oil was about the last thing I figured we would be talking about after posting the winterization list... I guess you guys think the tasks, order, etc are ok?

That's affirmative. I use the Valvoline racing 20W50 in mine.

Thrall
10-03-2012, 04:29 PM
Few comments:
Don't fog thru the intake on a dry intake engine like the LT-1. If you must fog it, pull the sparkplugs and give each hole a shot and then crank the engine a couple times. I wouldn't bother fogging it.
Personally I'd run the fuel low and then Stabilize what's left and run the engine to get the stabilized fuel thru the system. Non metallic fuel tanks I've never had condensation problems (sleds, boats, bikes, even in the moist northwest and midwest). No sense in having 30 gal of old boat gas to start the year out on.
Engine oil, biggest debate ever, but I've used 15W40 diesel oil for years. Cheaper than synthetic racing oil.
Whether you antifreeze the engine or not (I vote not), I'd drain everything first. Hoses, r/w pump, exh manifolds, block drains (1 knock sensor, 1 petcock,take the petcock out, don't just open it), heater, blow out and definately add some AF to it, shower, cant really blow out the pump, but I haven't had one freeze and break by just running it dry and disconnecting the hoses and draining them.
You'd be surprised the amount of rust that comes out of the manifolds and possibly sand out of the block drains. If you get a solid stream out of each block drain for 20-30 sec?? it's drained. 50/50 on whether to just leave all the plugs out of the engine for the winter. Used to do that to allow it to dry out, but now I just button it back up right away.

I also used to change the fuel filters, my PS LT-1 had 2. 1 by the engine and one on top of the tank, in the spring incase any fuel sat and gummed them up, but that was prolly just my OCD kicking in.

mikeg205
10-03-2012, 06:01 PM
dang I hate the winterizing conversation...:(

How many days till April?

jakethebt
10-03-2012, 09:02 PM
Thanks for the positive feedback.

After doing a bit more research, it appears that Indmar has changed their position on fogging on the LT1. The LT1 is considered a dry intake, I believe because it is multi port fuel injected. If it were a throttle body fuel injected, it would considered wet. The most recent info from Indmar, per Vince at SkiDIM, is that you only fog through the LT1 by removing the spark plugs and spraying directly in the cylinder.

I have updated the checklist to reflect this new information. So if you downloaded it already, you might want to do so again.

Additionally, I am still checking into the RV anti-freeze. According to Vince at SkiDIM, they use RV anti-freeze and have for years. I have come to find out that there are two types, ethanol and proplyene glycol. I was thinking that Vince was going to say he used the newer proplyene glycol, but NO, they use the ethanol. I also have a call into Indmar to see what their most recent position is. I will update the lists again once I have the info.

Also of note, after talking to several marinas, most of them are now using the antifreeze method instead of dry blocking. They say their customers like it better. Instead of having to have customers come back in the spring to re-install their plugs, the customer can just put the boat in the water and start it up. Interesting enough, they use to charge $70 in the fall and $70 in the spring, many of the charge $150 in the fall now. None of them seem to know anything about using or not using RV antifreeze in Al heads. They all seem to use it, only SkiDIM knew which type (ethanol).

Chief
10-03-2012, 09:23 PM
dang I hate the winterizing conversation...:(

How many days till April?

What's this winterizing thing?

mikeg205
10-04-2012, 12:03 AM
Thanks for the positive feedback.
.... (ethanol).

both ethanol and propylene glycol are safe for aluminum.

pram
10-04-2012, 11:50 AM
son of a *****

I fogged mine yesterday through the butterfly intakes, so now what

do I need to run it up again and clear that out?

CiscoStu
10-04-2012, 12:57 PM
Pram - is that the 1st time you've done it that way? If you've done it in previous years, I wouldn't worry about it. I think to clear it out, you might need to let it run more than just on the hose. To truly clear it out, you'd need to vary the throttle from idle to almost full to make sure it all flushes through...

pram
10-04-2012, 01:18 PM
nope, first time that I have done this. I bought the boat only last year and had it winterized at the dealer in Redding. I always fogged my last one, but it was a carb, not injected

So I guess I need to put it all back together and take it back to the lake

well, maybe this will make me go for one last ski then this year :P

JimN
10-04-2012, 01:36 PM
nope, first time that I have done this. I bought the boat only last year and had it winterized at the dealer in Redding. I always fogged my last one, but it was a carb, not injected

So I guess I need to put it all back together and take it back to the lake

well, maybe this will make me go for one last ski then this year :P

If you saw smoke after spraying the fogging oil in, it should be OK. If not, you can remove the spark plugs, squirt some into each cylinder, replace the plugs and crank it over a few times with the safety switch out. It's not ideal if the winter has many temperature inversions and moist air, the condensation in the heads and cylinders could cause some rust on valves and seats, but with the number of still-working engines that have been sitting for years/decades without any care at all, one winter won't kill it.

pram
10-04-2012, 01:53 PM
that was the part that concerned me was that I didn't see the smoke that I was accustomed to seeing when fogging

I think that I am going to put it back together take it back to the lake and run it all out then pull the plugs and fog each cylinder

GT500 MC
10-04-2012, 01:55 PM
Get a run in while you're at it. Now that would be a definition of a ski-a-holic. "Winterization didn't go just right, I have to get it out again and then re-winterize. Just to be sure."

JimN
10-04-2012, 02:17 PM
[QUOTE=pram;882325]that was the part that concerned me was that I didn't see the smoke that I was accustomed to seeing when fogging

I think that I am going to put it back together take it back to the lake and run it all out then pull the plugs and fog each cylinder[/QUOTE

The fogging oil may not be the type that smokes- the one in a red/white/blue can that has a ship's steering wheel doesn't but it still gets in there. If you used a lot of the oil, it probably went where it needs to.

jakethebt
10-04-2012, 02:26 PM
Pram, I assume that since you are concerned you have an LT1. Just about anything else is TBI and you would be following Indmar advice. If you do have an LT1, don't know that you hurt anything by spraying down the intake. According to Vince at SkiDIM, that is the way Indmar use to tell everyone to do it. Recently they changed and now recomend pulling the plugs and spraying. In your case, I think that I would just pull the plugs and fog each cylinder.

Legolamb
10-05-2012, 07:07 AM
Walmart has Mobil 1 15W-50 5 quart oil for $24.97, which is what I used in my LT1. I also purchased a high capacity DampRid moisture absorber which states is good for upto 6 months, available at Home Depot.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100391308/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=damp+rid&storeId=10051

jakethebt
10-05-2012, 03:53 PM
Clarification from my last post… There are NOT two types of RV anti-freeze. There are two type of anti-freeze. Automotive is ethylene glycol (EG). RV/marine is propylene glycol (PG). PG is the safer stuff. Often times you will see a third letter used with these that is a further refinement or classification (PGI for industrial grade). From what I can find, most RV/marine is PG. There are different colors (dyes) to indicate strength, temperature and for visual confirmation that it is present (so you can see it coming out of the exhaust).

jakethebt
10-05-2012, 03:57 PM
I talked to Indmar about what type of coolant to use on an LT1 and the bottom line is the glycol vs dry block debate will continue…

I talked to Sam in customer support at Indmar. They recommend dry blocking the engines. My opinion is that this is Indmar’s least risky stand. If done right, it is fool proof. The problem is that the consumers (we) can never be quite certain if our block is indeed dry. It also requires us to remove rusty thread plugs and knock sensors.

The first reason that was given is that Indmar does not want all that anti-freeze put in the water. RV safe or not, it seems they just don’t feel like it is a good idea to put it in the water or they don’t want to recommend it. Once again, I think this is their least risky stance.

The second reason that was given is that Indmar has seen issues with electrolysis in Al heads and more recently in Al exhaust manifolds. Sam stated that some engines had so much electrolysis that the engines could not cool properly. He also stated that in some of their newer engines that have Al exhaust manifolds, they had issues with the weld on the plugs corroding off. I don’t think electrolysis is the correct term, but that is what he used. At this point the discussion got a bit more interesting. I pointed out that on page 41 (6-9) Indmar owner’s manual states that for closed loop systems you should always use propylene glycol. The closed loop systems have it in there all the time, but the open loop systems can’t have it in there for 6 months? Sam re-iterated that they only see the corrosion in the open loop systems. I then pointed out that raw water is more corrosive to AL than propylene glycol. Most places state that propylene glycol, especially with corrosion inhibitors is improved protection for AL. I asked are you sure that it is the winterization propylene glycol that is causing the corrosion and proposed that perhaps it was the lake water itself causing the corrosion……. Crickets………. So I restated my question more simply… Why is it ok to run propylene glycol in the closed loop engine all the time and not the open loop half the time?

I felt a little bad putting Sam on the spot. I had some in depth questions and he had limited time to prepare a response. Perhaps he has thought of better answers now that the phone call is over, we all know that happens to everyone. The bottom line is that I don’t believe we will ever have official OEM approval to use RV antifreeze in our LT1. The easiest, lowest risk answer for Indmar and MC is to stick with dry blocking as their recommendation. Since that may not be the easiest answer for the consumer, we will continue to debate, wonder and maybe worry.

After taking in all the info and talking to Cincy MC about their LT1 winterization process, I have decided the best approach to publish may be the most amount of work. Cincy MC drains lake water, flush with PG RV anti-freeze and then drains the PG RV anti-freeze. This seems to mitigate the risk to the lowest level. I have updated the sheet on the first page to reflect this method. This ensures that no water is left anywhere it can do harm and replaced with PG RV anti-freeze and that the PG RV antifreeze is not sitting in the AL heads all winter. Please take a look at the updated list.

That being said… I hope that I have helped shed some light on this subject and maybe spark some new info/debate. The bottom line is that from my research I don’t see how either dry block or PG anti-freeze make any long term negative effects. I think either method will work fine. While I am not privy to all of Indmar’s knowledge, I just don’t understand how PG RV anti-freeze with corrosion inhibitors added (most RV anti-freezes do) causes AL to corrode. I think if anything, the raw lake water moving through and over them constantly is worse. I think that different lakes with more acidic or basic water would be a huge source of variation and corrosion. I would not be surprised, if a study was performed, that you could prove that the corrosion inhibitors in RV anti-freeze may actually improve the internal corrosion protection of the engine. Until then we will each have to make our own choice and compare notes in 20 more years…

jakethebt
10-05-2012, 04:04 PM
A few discussion points and facts about Propylene Glycol (PG) anti-freeze:

• Propylene glycol (PG) antifreeze comes in two types, motor vehicle and RV. These antifreezes are intended for completely different end uses. This paper will discuss the applications and differences between these antifreezes.

RV antifreeze also known as RV/Marine antifreeze is intended to protect both drinking and waste water systems in recreational vehicles and seasonal homes. It is also used to winterize marine engines which prevents them from bursting while in storage for the winter. Although While -50°F RV/Marine antifreeze will start to freeze at about 10°F it will not burst until -50°F. This is known as burst protection. Burst protection to -50°F is achieved with less than a 35% PG solution. For this reason most RV antifreezes come pre-diluted with as much as 65% water.

RV/Marine antifreeze is also intended to protect drinking water systems from rusting. Drinking water systems are composed mainly of steel piping. Because of the contact with drinking water pipes, a non toxic corrosion inhibitor such as Di-Potassium Phosphate is used in fact it is the only corrosion inhibitor found in most RV/Marine antifreeze. Also, since RV/Marine antifreeze is intended to be flushed out seasonally, the corrosion inhibitors are not designed for long-term protection.
http://www.peakauto.com/resources-technically_speaking.shtml

• Propylene glycol has a very low toxicity level, so low that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has classified it as an additive "generally recognized as safe" for use in food. http://www.ehow.com/about_6726306_ethylene-vs_-propylene-glycol.html

• Safeguarding Aluminum From Water Corrosion
Many Lytron customers, who use aluminum cold plates and heat exchangers, question why we discourage using untreated water in their cooling loop. The following discussion addresses a major concern: aluminum corrosion and how to prevent it.

Understanding Corrosion

Over time, most metals tend to deteriorate due to corrosion, which manifests itself as pits, cracks or more widespread surface degradation. Corrosion usually results from chemical or electrochemical actions that break down the protective oxides, characteristic of most metallic surfaces. Exposure to certain liquid, gaseous or solid agents - for example, water, water vapor, acids, bases, ammonia, salts, and heavy metal ions - can induce corrosion.
Depending on their relative position on the periodic chart of chemical elements and their electromotive properties (ability to produce an electric current and thereby enter into destructive cathodic reactions), some metals (such as iron) are more prone to corrode than others (such as aluminum).

An Effective Approach to Minimize Aluminum Corrosion
We strongly recommend adding a prescribed amount of ethylene glycol (antifreeze) to the water used in cold plates to help alleviate aluminum corrosion. Usually a solution of 25% ethylene glycol to 75% water is sufficient to prevent aluminum corrosion.Commonly employed commercial antifreezes include ethylene glycol (an environmentally hazardous substance) and propylene glycol (less toxic and more environmentally acceptable than ethylene glycol).
To protect against corrosion, most commercial grade ethylene and propylene glycols contain a blend of corrosion inhibitors (typically six to twelve depending on the supplier). These additives protect metal surfaces by applying a combination of physical and electrochemical barriers that reduce the effects of corrosion.
You want your cooling loop to provide years of leak free cooling. Using ethylene glycol or propylene glycol to reduce aluminum corrosion ensures this.http://www.lytron.com/Tools-and-Technical-Reference/Application-Notes/Safeguarding-Aluminum-From-Water-Corrosion

• Propylene Glycol Industrial Grade (PGI) is an excellent choice as the base fluid for aircraft deicing formulations due to its:
Low freezing point
Low toxicity
Biodegradability
Ease of handling
Low corrosive nature to metals
Low flammability
http://www.dow.com/propyleneglycol/applications/aircraft_deicing_fluid.htm

• Propylene Glycol Industrial Grade (PGI) is often used as an active ingredient in engine coolants and antifreeze, offering benefits including:
Low freezing point
The ability to decrease the freezing point of water
Burst protection
Low mammalian toxicity
Low flammability
Excellent heat transfer properties
A high boiling point, low vapor pressure

Some types of propylene glycol-based coolants or antifreeze can provide engine protection comparable to ethylene glycol-based systems, most notably in aluminum engines.
When most fluids freeze they expand in volume, which can cause pipes or other containment vessels to rupture. When a water-glycol mixture freezes, it retains its flow-ability and does not create added pressure in pipes or vessels. This makes it an ideal solution for burst protection in pipe and containment systems.
http://www.dow.com/propyleneglycol/applications/coolants_and_antifreeze.htm (A few discussion points and facts about Propylene Glycol (PG) anti-freeze:)

It should also be noted that PG is used as aircraft de-icing. So what are airplanes made of? AL!!!

JimN
10-05-2012, 04:12 PM
Clarification from my last post… There are NOT two types of RV anti-freeze. There are two type of anti-freeze. Automotive is ethylene glycol (EG). RV/marine is propylene glycol (PG). PG is the safer stuff. Often times you will see a third letter used with these that is a further refinement or classification (PGI for industrial grade). From what I can find, most RV/marine is PG. There are different colors (dyes) to indicate strength, temperature and for visual confirmation that it is present (so you can see it coming out of the exhaust).

You seem to ba assuming the anti-freeze being used is made for engines and many people don't use that- they're using the stuff for holding tanks for fresh water systems, which does have alcohol. The bright green stuff is used by some, along with the environmental damage, although some collect it before they hit the water.

jakethebt
10-05-2012, 08:30 PM
Yes, some or most of the PG seems to have some form or amount of alcohol in it. That IS the stuff used in holding tanks and is commonly referred to as RV anti-freeze. The fact that it has alcohol in it seems to be irrelevant as the reason for not recommending it seems to be with the PG itself, according to Sam at Indmar.

The auto stuff, or EG, is mainly green or sometimes red. It appears that there are no known corrosion issues with it, but as you stated JimN, it should be collected and recycled. I have heard that 5 gallons in equals about 15 out. That is a lot to figure out what to do with. Also there is concern that it will not be very easy to ensure that it is all out of the engine in the spring and you may end up with a few green streaks behind your boat. It is not only bad for the fish, it is bad to swim in and you could end up with a ticket.

One thing is for sure, there are a few choices out there. Just a matter of what you want to deal with...

JimN
10-05-2012, 08:54 PM
Yes, some or most of the PG seems to have some form or amount of alcohol in it. That IS the stuff used in holding tanks and is commonly referred to as RV anti-freeze. The fact that it has alcohol in it seems to be irrelevant as the reason for not recommending it seems to be with the PG itself, according to Sam at Indmar.

The auto stuff, or EG, is mainly green or sometimes red. It appears that there are no known corrosion issues with it, but as you stated JimN, it should be collected and recycled. I have heard that 5 gallons in equals about 15 out. That is a lot to figure out what to do with. Also there is concern that it will not be very easy to ensure that it is all out of the engine in the spring and you may end up with a few green streaks behind your boat. It is not only bad for the fish, it is bad to swim in and you could end up with a ticket.

One thing is for sure, there are a few choices out there. Just a matter of what you want to deal with...

WRT choices, there are only a few- using auto anti-freeze isn't one of them and if the Coast Guard/DNR sees someone with a big green or red plume behind the boat, it gets ugly, fast. The fines and other penalties makes using it a very stupid decision. It's not just fish- it's every animal that ingests it- organ failure starts soon after, usually followed by death if the concentration is sufficient.

As far as 3 in/15 out, why? If the antifreeze i s drained into the bilge and collected, it comes out to 3 in/3 out with wiping up the excess before running it on water.

jakethebt
10-05-2012, 09:07 PM
I suppose you could do it that way. I have heard that some attempt to collect it via buckets under the exhaust to rinse it out of the block with water. I agree, it does not seem easy, or green. Also, there is no where near where I live that will recycle it. I think I will stick with the check list method.

JimN
10-05-2012, 10:11 PM
I suppose you could do it that way. I have heard that some attempt to collect it via buckets under the exhaust to rinse it out of the block with water. I agree, it does not see easy, or green. Also, there is no where near where I live that will recycle it. I think I will stick with the check list method.

I would try draining the engine into the bilge and let it drain out through the hull. Kind of a balancing act WRT the location and slope, but it can be done. As far as where to take it, I would call some of the fast-lube places that do cooling system flushes. I usually take old oil to the closest Valvoline place and they're fine with that. If I have to, I can go to the MKE county dump. They take old oil, brake fluid and coolant.

Where are you?

Ski-me
10-07-2012, 09:56 AM
What is the benefit, if any, to switch to a synthetic motor oil or transmission oil?

I've seen Royal Purple but most of it is all synthetic.

I'm concerned about putting this "premium" stuff in such an old boat motor (1994 LT1). Is it really worth it or just a waste of money?

Also, if I don't get all the tranny fluid out....is it OK to "mix" traditional with the synthetic?

Thrall
10-07-2012, 11:55 AM
What is the benefit, if any, to switch to a synthetic motor oil or transmission oil?

I've seen Royal Purple but most of it is all synthetic.

I'm concerned about putting this "premium" stuff in such an old boat motor (1994 LT1). Is it really worth it or just a waste of money?

Also, if I don't get all the tranny fluid out....is it OK to "mix" traditional with the synthetic?

IMO, synthetic is good if you're after longer drain intervals, lasts longer, doesn't break down as quickly.
I don't think, there are any other advantages.
Case in point, I ran my 1990GMC, 350 engine up to about 160k mi before I sold it. Changed the oil every 3k mi +/- with whatever the cheapest stuff on sale was. (I was in college, no extra money in the beer fund for syn oil.) Saw the truck a couple years later towing a big ole horse trailer. Guy I sold it to put a GN hitch in the bed and worked the 1/2 ton like a 1 ton. At that point it had about 230k mi, orig engine....and trans.
My new F150 work truck and the last one, both "require" 5W20 synthetic. Also have about a 10k mile reccomended oil change interval. My company still requires 3k mi oil changes and no syn oil. Turned in the last one at 90k mi and the engine was still fine, many of them running around close to 150k mi before getting sent to auction.
Again, I think routine maint is the key, not what you use to maintain it as long as it's of sufficient quality.
I use synthetic oils in my vehicles trans, t case, axles, but only because I don't want to crawl under them as often to change the oil. I use syn 2 stroke, top quality oil in my sleds but only because I have the oil injection tuned down to the minimum required to keep them running right. If I let them run fat on oil, I'd use cheaper stuff. Everything else including the boat (which gets short service intervals due to the amount of hrs a year I use it) gets dino oils.
Note this is only my opinion, but I was responsible for maintianing a fleet of vehicles/equipment for about 5 years. Landscaping business, mom and pop place, never saw things with engines get abused as bad as there and with regular cheap dino oil changes, I never saw an oil related failure, nor any premature failures. Plenty of wear and tear failures, things used well beyond their intended purpose or loading, swapped out a couple OLD engines, but reasonably priced oil works fine.

mikeg205
10-07-2012, 07:38 PM
IMO, synthetic is good if you're after longer drain intervals, lasts longer, doesn't break down as quickly.
I don't think, there are any other advantages.
Case in point, I ran my 1990GMC, 350 engine up to about 160k mi before I sold it. Changed the oil every 3k mi +/- with whatever the cheapest stuff on sale was. (I was in college, no extra money in the beer fund for syn oil.) Saw the truck a couple years later towing a big ole horse trailer. Guy I sold it to put a GN hitch in the bed and worked the 1/2 ton like a 1 ton. At that point it had about 230k mi, orig engine....and trans.
My new F150 work truck and the last one, both "require" 5W20 synthetic. Also have about a 10k mile reccomended oil change interval. My company still requires 3k mi oil changes and no syn oil. Turned in the last one at 90k mi and the engine was still fine, many of them running around close to 150k mi before getting sent to auction.
Again, I think routine maint is the key, not what you use to maintain it as long as it's of sufficient quality.
I use synthetic oils in my vehicles trans, t case, axles, but only because I don't want to crawl under them as often to change the oil. I use syn 2 stroke, top quality oil in my sleds but only because I have the oil injection tuned down to the minimum required to keep them running right. If I let them run fat on oil, I'd use cheaper stuff. Everything else including the boat (which gets short service intervals due to the amount of hrs a year I use it) gets dino oils.
Note this is only my opinion, but I was responsible for maintianing a fleet of vehicles/equipment for about 5 years. Landscaping business, mom and pop place, never saw things with engines get abused as bad as there and with regular cheap dino oil changes, I never saw an oil related failure, nor any premature failures. Plenty of wear and tear failures, things used well beyond their intended purpose or loading, swapped out a couple OLD engines, but reasonably priced oil works fine.

Good point Thrall but Royal Purple and Valvoline VR1-1 synth comes in cool colors. The one thing synth oil gives is better sheer strength just in case engine temps spikes. Synth base is good for the MCOCD soul. :D

jakethebt
10-07-2012, 09:21 PM
As for the oil, I am lucky to find 20W50 anywhere, let alone brand or type... No idea why it is so hard to find.

mikeg205
10-07-2012, 09:44 PM
As for the oil, I am lucky to find 20W50 anywhere, let alone brand or type... No idea why it is so hard to find.

most places don't carry on shelf...i.e. napa has it at warehouse.. I call day before or early morning or order on web early morning and pickup in the afternoon. Dino stuff good stuff..I jsut like new technology and synth oil IMO base stock less prone to oxidation due to manufacture process. I like the synth in tranny too..synth oils appear on available data to perform better stress and heat...just my .02... I hate oil...too much to read about and too many choices... lol...

Rockman
10-08-2012, 07:55 PM
So what is the correct oil weight to run on a 1994 LTI with about 600 hours?

I want to run Mobile One so what should I buy? :confused:

mikeg205
10-08-2012, 08:12 PM
So what is the correct oil weight to run on a 1994 LTI with about 600 hours?

I want to run Mobile One so what should I buy? :confused:

Mobil 1 Racing 15w50 or Valvoline VR1 Synth 20w50 - more anti-wear in additive pack than non-racing oil..... I personally like synth because of base stock plus I add 12 oz of Hyperlube...jsut cuz of by MC OCD.

akps190
10-08-2012, 08:13 PM
Regarding the RV PG antifreeze.... from what I have read its not the PG antifreeze that is the problem with the aluminum heads, its the lack of corrosion inihibitors in the RV antifreeze that is the problem. I warm up the engine and pump automotive PG with inhibitors thru the engine (like Sierra), let it cool overnight, then drain and salvage as much as I can for resue next year. I also take a shop vac and put the hose on the blower side and blow thru the hoses. You can feel the air coming out thru the drain plugs. Just to make sure there is not crap plugging up the drain plugs....

akps190
10-08-2012, 08:37 PM
Also, I notice that your checklist indicates draining the engine while it is still hot. This has always been a dilemma for me. Is this important to drain fluid on both sides of the thermostat?? I dont like the idea of draining the fluid off the engine while it is hot and possibly serving as a heat sink for the block. The previous owner of the boat said he just pulled the hoses and the block plugs and that was it, so I assume the engine will drain adequately when cool. So, I have elected to antifreeze and then drain after the engine is cool.

Rockman
10-08-2012, 10:39 PM
Mobil 1 Racing 15w50 or Valvoline VR1 Synth 20w50 - more anti-wear in additive pack than non-racing oil..... I personally like synth because of base stock plus I add 12 oz of Hyperlube...jsut cuz of by MC OCD.

I had to run to the store for a few items for the house tonight...Walmart by the house had nothing...Autozone had 20W50 (Valvoline for around $22 for 5 qts) and any 15W40 oil they had were all labeled for Diesel engines...where can I get the Mobil 1 Racing 15W50?

Mike, you have the LT1, correct?

mikeg205
10-09-2012, 08:10 AM
I had to run to the store for a few items for the house tonight...Walmart by the house had nothing...Autozone had 20W50 (Valvoline for around $22 for 5 qts) and any 15W40 oil they had were all labeled for Diesel engines...where can I get the Mobil 1 Racing 15W50?

Mike, you have the LT1, correct?

No I have the 5.7 TBI.. Also - the Mobil 1 Racing sorry is 0w50 - but Zinc/Phosphorous is 1850. You can find it on Amazon.com. For the price you can go Mobil 1 15w50 non racing and add ZDDP from Autozone. You can get hte 15w50 at the walmart on rt. 59 on the north side of plainfield.

http://www.amazon.com/ZDDPPlus-ZDDP-Engine-Additive-Phosphorus/dp/B002RNBO3U/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1349784620&sr=8-2&keywords=zddplus

Here's the Mobil 1 url

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Racing_0W-50.aspx

The diesel i.e. Rotella 15w40 is a great oil for marine use as well and a great price. I went to the 20w50 for the boosted levels of zinc/phosphorus because my engine has flat tappets.

The Mobil 1 Racing is a bit pricey at $16 a quart.

Rockman
10-09-2012, 08:17 AM
What will happen to the motor if I use one weight vs. the other that you mention?

Easiest thing to do would be just run the Valvoline which I can buy locally (20W50).



Isn't there one specific weight that is suppose to be run? The OEM oil for the LT1 was 15W40 I believe.

mikeg205
10-09-2012, 08:23 AM
15w is for the winter viscosity. the 40 is the operating temp viscosity. You have roller tappets I believe so 15w40 rotella should work great or even the 5w40 rotella T6 Synthetic. Both have higher ZDDP.

My engine called for the same 15w40 - but I noticed a slight performance improvement with the VR1 20w50. Lot of great info on the web on oil and flat tappets and lt-1 engines.

Jorski
10-09-2012, 12:03 PM
Never understood the resistance to laying up the LT-1 dry.

I have done it for the last 9 years without incident...just make sure that the all of the drain openings are clear of scale and debris.

Ski-me
10-09-2012, 12:40 PM
I just picked up my gear and am going to give this a shot this weekend on my LT-1.

Went with:
20w50 VR1 Synthetic ($8.99/quart)
Mobil 1 ATF Synthetic ($9.99/quart)
New Plugs
New fuel filters (2 ea)
6 gallons of RV Antifreeze
Stabil-Fogging Oil for each spark plug hole only
K&N Filter cleaning

Come, Saturday, I may be asking more questions to be sure I get it completely done correctly.

I'm thinking run the RV coolant through the engine until it comes out the back and then drain everything. Blow out heater and shower. Remove impellar.

Wish me luck!

Rockman
10-09-2012, 01:12 PM
Ski-Me,

Please keep us up to date on your progress and include pics...our 190 will be shipped on Sunday to arrive next week some time and we will be doing the same process.

If you see a 94 190 with basically the same color scheme as your boat near your house this weekend, that is ours! :D

Ski-me
10-09-2012, 03:31 PM
Ski-Me,

Please keep us up to date on your progress and include pics...our 190 will be shipped on Sunday to arrive next week some time and we will be doing the same process.

If you see a 94 190 with basically the same color scheme as your boat near your house this weekend, that is ours! :D

So you did buy that one in Denver.....:cool:

Looked pretty good and idential to mine (less the 205). Glad you found someone to haul it for you.

SP Maristar
10-09-2012, 11:21 PM
Thanks Jake for the checklist and the supplies list. Our Maristar has two of the metal fuel filters instead of the one Napa filter and one metal one, but other than that our LT1 is the same. Finished nearly everything this past weekend and she is now in the garage. Boat noises and beverages are right around the corner. Winterizing was a great way to familiarize myself with the boat so in case the worst happens on the water, I am now prepared.

mikeg205
10-10-2012, 08:06 AM
Ski-Me,

Please keep us up to date on your progress and include pics...our 190 will be shipped on Sunday to arrive next week some time and we will be doing the same process.

If you see a 94 190 with basically the same color scheme as your boat near your house this weekend, that is ours! :D

Post some pic's when she arrives...lookin' forward to seein' the pics of the new girl...

Ski-me
10-11-2012, 05:27 PM
Never understood the resistance to laying up the LT-1 dry.

I have done it for the last 9 years without incident...just make sure that the all of the drain openings are clear of scale and debris.

So I just called the boat shop in Denver and cancelled my winterization appointment. I did ask her if they use RV Antifreeze or regular Antifreeze and if so, would it harm the LT1 aluminum heads in any way.

She said she doesn't know because they don't use it at all. They just drain and blow them out....never use the stuff.

So, if I don't use either one, can I just open things up, remove hoses and then possibly hook up the blower portion of the shop vac to the intake hose and blow out the whole block?

Is this how you do it Jorski? Being from Canada, I know you get your share of cold weather so any guidance would be great!~

mikeg205
10-11-2012, 05:42 PM
My MCOCD kicks in just to make sure that the recirculation pump is dry...a little water in the wrong place and voila - need a new pump...cuz the bearing leaks...

Legolamb
10-12-2012, 07:20 AM
What specific attention does the recirc water pump need to drain? Does this pump drain when the block plugs are removed?

JimN
10-12-2012, 08:39 AM
What specific attention does the recirc water pump need to drain? Does this pump drain when the block plugs are removed?

Drain the block/exhaust manifolds after changing the oil/filter, fogging and everything that requires the engine to run. Drain the oil cooler, disconnect the larger hoses at their lowest point (recirculation hoses), pull the lanyard off of the safety switch and crank the engine for about 5 seconds to clear out the pumps. Clean it, use anti-corrosion spray (if you're in a moist climate), remove the hull plug(s) (bag them and hang the bag on the steering wheel, throttle or some other conspicuous place). Make a list of what you did and what will be needed to summerize it.

jakethebt
10-12-2012, 08:57 PM
I think that one of the advantages of winterizing by the check list (drain, rv, drain) is that even if you miss a pump or hose, you are covered by the fact that the last thing ran in the engine is the RV stuff. I may tweak the order a bit after doing it. My oil, even when warmed, seems to take forever to drain.

A couple of pointers for those working tomorrow. The fuel filters drain more fuel than I thought they would. I ended up making a catch pan from a pc of al flashing for roofing to place under the filter on top of the tank. It has about 1/4" high sides and was adequate to keep the fuel from draining all over the top of the fuel tank or running down the back of the tank.

Also, when changing the oil or main fuel filter, I placed about 5 or so papertowls in a plastic shopping bag and placed that under both filters as they came off. This allowed me to capture most of the fuel and oil very easy. Of course there was still some oil in the bottom of the boat, but much less and it would have been.

Let me know if you have any suggestions for the checklist after actually performing it. I want to add a few of the above comments anyway. If someone wanted to send me pics of each step that would be a cool addition too...

JimN
10-13-2012, 03:30 AM
I think that one of the advantages of winterizing by the check list (drain, rv, drain) is that even if you miss a pump or hose, you are covered by the fact that the last thing ran in the engine is the RV stuff. I may tweak the order a bit after doing it. My oil, even when warmed, seems to take forever to drain.

A couple of pointers for those working tomorrow. The fuel filters drain more fuel than I thought they would. I ended up making a catch pan from a pc of al flashing for roofing to place under the filter on top of the tank. I has about 1/4" high sides and was adequate to keep the fuel from draining all over the top of the fuel tank or running down the back of the tank.

Also, when changing the oil or main fuel filter, I placed about 5 or so papertowls in a plastic shopping bag and placed that under both filters as they came off. This allowed me to capture most of the fuel and oil very easy. Of course there was still some oil in the bottom of the boat, but much less and it would have been.

Let me know if you have any suggestions for the checklist after actually performing it. I want to add a few of the above comments anyway. If someone wanted to send me pics of each step that would be a cool addition too...

I save plastic jugs from windshield washer fluid and cut the bottom off at a height that works for whatever I need to catch. I use them for oil changes, catching the oil from the filter. I place paper towels underneath in case of splashing or spills but the amount of oil in the bilge is nothing compared with just using towels. I use them for fuel filters, too.

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:02 AM
Jake, you've done an awesome job spelling things out so I decided to do a small write-up on my winterization process on my 1994 205 with the LT1 engine, and take some pictures along the way. I thought it would be appropriate to just add it to this thread. I've never done it before but for the most part, pretty straight forward. Here are the steps I took.

Find a nice day with lots of sun and heat! :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0029.jpg

Add Stabilizer to fuel tank.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0030.jpg

And then head to the lake to warm everything up and get the Stabilizer all throughout the fuel system.

A little choppy but hey, I got a ski in!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0027.jpg

I then pulled the boat home and removed the shocks to allow the engine cover to open up further for better access.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0031.jpg

And then just used a bumper to support the cover so it didn't put excess stress on the hinges.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0032.jpg

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:03 AM
Next, I pulled out the drain line for the engine oil and ran it down the drain hole....and then drained the motor oil.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0033.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0034.jpg

I used the hand pump to suck out the oil from the tranny. I originally had the extracted oil container up above but towards the end, it ran out of suction. The instructions said that the output had to be lower than the suction and I was able to get a little more out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0035.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0036.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0037.jpg

Total, I got 1 quart and 4 oz. Not quite 2 quarts but that's all I could get.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0038.jpg

I replaced with Synthetic Tranny fluid...same amount I got out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0043.jpg

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:05 AM
Next, I removed the oil filter and used JimN's suggestion of cutting off the top of a jug to catch the filter and oil. Awesome idea and worked like a charm!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0044.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0045.jpg

I did install the taller, larger capacity oil filter. There is an edge that looked to be knocked in just a bit so the taller one may or may not fit. Mine was just fine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0046.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0048.jpg

I got 4 quarts of oil out after draining so I think I got most of it. The oil filter took at least 3/4 of a quart to fill. Valvoline Synthetic too!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0047.jpg

Oh, and I didn't know....synthetic motor oil is Green!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0050.jpg

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:05 AM
Next, I changed both fuel filter. One by the engine and the other by the tank. I put a towel under it to catch any excess fuel that may pour out. I did first hit the scrader valve to relieve any fuel pressure before changing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0052.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0051.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0053.jpg

I then started the engine and let it cycle everything and warm the engine back up.

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:06 AM
I know there were questions regarding using RV anti-freeze, regular anti-freeze or just plain water. I elected to use RV stuff but drain it out afterwards. Rather be safe than sorry for my first run! I tried to take the raw water intake hose off just at the base but couldn't get it free so I elected to disconnect just after the heat exchanger (I think that's what is was) and then bent this into a bucket. I started with about 3 gallons and started the engine. Then I quickly squeezed in 3 more gallons and let everything suck into the cooling system.
One note, be sure that the engine is fully warm or the t-stat may not open yet and let the coolant into all of the areas. I didn't get mine all the way heated up so I don't think the anti-freeze made it into the block.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0054.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0055.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0056.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0059.jpg

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:07 AM
Now, finally, on to the draining of the block, etc.
First, I disconnected the hot water source for heater and shower hoses.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0060.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0061.jpg

Then the cold water for shower.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0062.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0063.jpg

And this hose:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0064.jpg

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:08 AM
The manifold hoses and plugs:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0065.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0066.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0072.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0073.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0076.jpg

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:09 AM
The upper hoses:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0067.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0068.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0069.jpg

And then the impellar area:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0070.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0071.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0077.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0078.jpg

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:10 AM
I didn't really know about these but I pulled them to be safe. Nothing really came out of them
.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0080.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0081.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0082.jpg

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:11 AM
Once things were drained, I hooked up the hoses again and pulled the kill switch....and then cranked the engine over for about 5 seconds to flush anything else out the system.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0079.jpg

I hooked up some of the hoses and put the cover back on the impellar and then blew out the lines with an air compressor and also a shop vac for the raw water intake.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0085.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0086.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0086.jpg

Shop Vac:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0087.jpg

And then hosed everything down with some fresh water....the RV stuff was sticky and wanted to get that off of things.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0083.jpg


I have not fogged in the spark plug areas yet but will do that in the next few days.

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 12:11 AM
My only questions.....did I miss anything? Do I remove this "thing" to drain the block further?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0009-1.jpg

Legolamb
10-16-2012, 06:50 AM
That "thing" is your knock sensor, and yes you need to remove if you want to drain that side of the block. Once removed, you may want to poke around a bit with a small screw driver or piece of wire to make sure there isn't any sediment or rust blocking any more liquid from draining.

Nice pictures and details, thanks for taking the time to document your procedures.

frankster66
10-16-2012, 07:10 AM
Thanks SKI-ME, awesome job!!

mikeg205
10-16-2012, 07:48 AM
The only thing I would add is the Platinum oil filter from napa part 41060 - not needed but good for my MCOCD... http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=PFL41060_0362575149

The only difference in the platinum has a lower flow rate - but catches smaller particles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRbDfhgOOgo

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 10:09 AM
That "thing" is your knock sensor, and yes you need to remove if you want to drain that side of the block. Once removed, you may want to poke around a bit with a small screw driver or piece of wire to make sure there isn't any sediment or rust blocking any more liquid from draining.

Nice pictures and details, thanks for taking the time to document your procedures.

Cool, thanks! I kinda thought so but wanted to double check.

Also, anyone do the pitot tubes as well? I looked at my gauges and don't really want to take that apart to get to the end. Maybe just blow it out from the "gold tube" in the back on out to the pitot assembly?

Added to Thread:

Glad you noted the knock sensor.....definitely a LOT of water still in there! Appreciate it!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0009-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0091.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0092.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0093.jpg

JimN
10-16-2012, 10:16 AM
Cool, thanks! I kinda thought so but wanted to double check.

Also, anyone do the pitot tubes as well? I looked at my gauges and don't really want to take that apart to get to the end. Maybe just blow it out from the "gold tube" in the back on out to the pitot assembly?

You can do it that way, but you risk having the gauges blow out if the water freezes. Don't use vacuum to remove the water from the gauges, either- that can damage the diaphragm, too.

It's a pain, but it's just part of "doing it right".

tideengineer
10-16-2012, 10:31 AM
I really want to change the tranny oil in my 96 LT-1....why don't someone give me a play by play on how to do that...

I just changed oil and removed all the water, plus removed the impeller. Last thing on my mind is the tranny....

JimN
10-16-2012, 10:43 AM
I really want to change the tranny oil in my 96 LT-1....why don't someone give me a play by play on how to do that...

I just changed oil and removed all the water, plus removed the impeller. Last thing on my mind is the tranny....

Call the closest dealer and ask what they do when they winterize. If they don't do much, call other dealers. When I was working on boats, it took close to 3 hours and that was only because I had worked on so many boats that I could streamline it by running one to temperature while I was doing something on another boat. If you paid someone to do it in the past, look at the invoice to see what was done and copy it. If you're in a cold climate, it requires more than in a more moderate climate. Plan and work accordingly.

Ski-me
10-16-2012, 10:54 AM
It definitely took me several hours to do everything...and I took my time. I'd say about 4-5 hrs on the boat - (had a volleyball meeting to attend to in the middle of the whole thing!) I used that break to drive the boat around and get all the water sloshed out of the hull. A lot of stop/go and hills.

Edit: Added pics of speedo blowout before the thread subject deviates....keep in mind that the speedo hose is secured by a nut on the back of the gauge so you may have to twist it to remove the tube.

Because of the dry climate, I decided to NOT fog the cylinders. From the two shops I spoke with, they just didn't think it was necessary here in Colorado.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0147.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/nielson2020/Mastercraft%20205%201994/Winterization/DSC_0146.jpg

JimN
10-16-2012, 11:12 AM
It definitely took me several hours to do everything...and I took my time. I'd say about 4-5 hrs on the boat - (had a volleyball meeting to attend to in the middle of the whole thing!) I used that break to drive the boat around and get all the water sloshed out of the hull. A lot of stop/go and hills.

When I went to training, the instructor, who had previously owned shop, said they used to haul boats out before winterization. They would get to the boat, put the StaBil in the tank, run it over to the launch and pull it out before getting out of the way of other boaters who were removing their boats, where they would remove the hull plug(s), remove the engine plugs and lower end of the hoses, crank it over to clear the water pumps and drive it back to the shop to do the cleaning, corrosion guard, oil changes and anything else on the list. By the time they got back, the engine and hull had drained. No anti-freeze at all. This is a fairly deep lake, so weeds, mud and silt weren't a problem, but they never had a block freeze, either.

Jorski
10-16-2012, 02:20 PM
Ski-me...

Great job!

Two things:

1) Make sure that you remove that knock sensor. It's at the low point in the cooling system. When you do, use an awl or something and make sure that there isn't any scale or other debris blocking the hole.

2) You asked me about the method that I use. No anti-freeze at all, just very careful about draining. never a problem in 9 years of cold Canadian winters.

Finally, I remove the pitot tubes at the bottom of the little brass ballast tubes located in the space behind the back seat on either side. Then I blow the water out with my mouth...if you cant do this the pick-up is clogged, and you should clear it with a large safety pin.

Nice job!

Sierra Tango II
10-21-2012, 12:41 PM
Ok, so i downloaded my checklist and was going to do everything by the book. I brought my boat to the lake, added stabil, let it come to temp and pushed the throttle down for a few minutes. within a minute or two after doing so the "check engine" light comes on. Gauges were normal, operating temp where it should be. Oil pressure good, voltage good, so I shut it down and started it back up, light goes off, I idle for a minute (heading back towards the dock) and again pushe the throttle down. It does the same thing. By now Im back at the dock so I shut it down, pull it out and drain the block right there at the ramp, like was mentioned earlier in this thread, and when I drained the exhaust manifolds pieces of the impeller came out. I pulled the cover off and three of the rubber fins were missing. I had it kchecked out before I bought it and it checked out fine with the exception of the energy absorbers and the trailer brakes. I put ten hours on it only. My question is, is there any damage that could have happened, and should I worry about the impeller pieces clogging any of the passages? Also, I took off all the hoses and the port drainplug to drain the block, however on the starboard side there was not a plug, but the knock sensor. Am I to assume that the knock sensor is the plug? I looked all around and didnt see a block drain. Any advice would be appreciated.

JimN
10-21-2012, 12:59 PM
Ok, so i downloaded my checklist and was going to do everything by the book. I brought my boat to the lake, added stabil, let it come to temp and pushed the throttle down for a few minutes. within a minute or two after doing so the "check engine" light comes on. Gauges were normal, operating temp where it should be. Oil pressure good, voltage good, so I shut it down and started it back up, light goes off, I idle for a minute (heading back towards the dock) and again pushe the throttle down. It does the same thing. By now Im back at the dock so I shut it down, pull it out and drain the block right there at the ramp, like was mentioned earlier in this thread, and when I drained the exhaust manifolds pieces of the impeller came out. I pulled the cover off and three of the rubber fins were missing. I had it kchecked out before I bought it and it checked out fine with the exception of the energy absorbers and the trailer brakes. I put ten hours on it only. My question is, is there any damage that could have happened, and should I worry about the impeller pieces clogging any of the passages? Also, I took off all the hoses and the port drainplug to drain the block, however on the starboard side there was not a plug, but the knock sensor. Am I to assume that the knock sensor is the plug? I looked all around and didnt see a block drain. Any advice would be appreciated.

What do you mean by "I pushed the throttle down"? It was at idle, or WOT? If it's the LT-1, you don't want to idle for a long time.

Yes, look in the thermostat housings and see if you can find pieces of the impeller.

How long have you owned this boat? If it's new to you, buy two impellers WITH THE GASKETS and keep one on-board at all times, as a spare. The knock sensor is the plug for that side and the other has either a petcock, a plug or a T-fitting for a heater. Remove whatever is there and make sure the water rushes out, not at slow dribble. You also need to remove the plugs or disconnect the hoses on the rear of the exhaust manifolds, the oil cooler and at the lowest points of the pumps, then crank it over with the lanyard off.

Sierra Tango II
10-21-2012, 01:16 PM
What do you mean by "I pushed the throttle down"? It was at idle, or WOT? If it's the LT-1, you don't want to idle for a long time.

Yes, look in the thermostat housings and see if you can find pieces of the impeller.

How long have you owned this boat? If it's new to you, buy two impellers WITH THE GASKETS and keep one on-board at all times, as a spare. The knock sensor is the plug for that side and the other has either a petcock, a plug or a T-fitting for a heater. Remove whatever is there and make sure the water rushes out, not at slow dribble. You also need to remove the plugs or disconnect the hoses on the rear of the exhaust manifolds, the oil cooler and at the lowest points of the pumps, then crank it over with the lanyard off.

Quite honestly i idled for about 40 minutes or so, as it was a beautiful morning, I was enjoying my coffee :) and it was the last time it was going to be in the water. I just bought the boat about a month ago and put about ten hours on it. I had it checked at the Mastercraft dealer and it checked out fine, including the impeller. I do know about the impeller and asked at the time that it was cecked out if it should be replaced, however the service manager said that because it was the end of the season not to worry about it, but to just keep an eye on the temp gauge for any sudden fluctuation, but replace it when I winterized it. I did not know that the boat was not meant to idle long. What damage occurs with excessive idle time? We actually use it for more than just skiing and probably 2 of the ten hours have been at idle while driving around the lake watching the sunset. I removed everything thus far but have not cranked it over. I was going to change the oil, and tranny fluid, fog it and then crank it over as the last thing that I did. I pulled the entire drain plug out on the block, as I am aware how the passages get clogged with debris. Am I to worry about the pieces of impeller that may or may not be in the block, or are the passages large enough so that the flow will not be restricted?

JimN
10-21-2012, 02:04 PM
Quite honestly i idled for about 40 minutes or so, as it was a beautiful morning, I was enjoying my coffee :) and it was the last time it was going to be in the water. I just bought the boat about a month ago and put about ten hours on it. I had it checked at the Mastercraft dealer and it checked out fine, including the impeller. I do know about the impeller and asked at the time that it was cecked out if it should be replaced, however the service manager said that because it was the end of the season not to worry about it, but to just keep an eye on the temp gauge for any sudden fluctuation, but replace it when I winterized it. I did not know that the boat was not meant to idle long. What damage occurs with excessive idle time? We actually use it for more than just skiing and probably 2 of the ten hours have been at idle while driving around the lake watching the sunset. I removed everything thus far but have not cranked it over. I was going to change the oil, and tranny fluid, fog it and then crank it over as the last thing that I did. I pulled the entire drain plug out on the block, as I am aware how the passages get clogged with debris. Am I to worry about the pieces of impeller that may or may not be in the block, or are the passages large enough so that the flow will not be restricted?

If it's a beautiful morning, why would you NOT take it out on the water? That speeds up the process and, well,...

If the service manager saw a damaged impeller and DIDN'T replace it, I'd be pretty PO'd. It was already out- what better time to do this? If you have three missing vanes, it can't cool the engine at idle, period. If ANY vanes were missing when the shop looked at it, I would have a serious problem and if they didn't document everything, they'd be on my S-list.

Look at it this way- the choices were to A) replace a bad impeller and you probably wouldn't have had this problem (assuming the oil cooler and raw water hoses are all clear of any obstructions) or B) leave it and let you have this problem. A costs a little but B could be expensive if the exhaust hoses are soft, the flappers and flanges are blistered and the engine cooks. If these aren't at least inspected, you're asking for trouble.

Yes, worry about the missing vanes. Never assume they're not going to cause a problem.

Look, I'm not trying to be the voice of doom and gloom but these are different from car engines because they have a raw water impeller that's not metal and can be damaged and they have rubber exhaust hoses and flappers & plastic exhaust flanges that can be melted by hot exhaust gases. If any water was going through the engine and exhaust, it's possible that they weren't damaged badly because you were only at idle but they still need to be checked and the dealer should have instructed you on what to do WRT long idle times (basically, "don't"). The oil cooler should be checked- if you find weeds and other debris, that's a likely cause for this problem.

Sierra Tango II
10-21-2012, 02:43 PM
If it's a beautiful morning, why would you NOT take it out on the water? That speeds up the process and, well,...

If the service manager saw a damaged impeller and DIDN'T replace it, I'd be pretty PO'd. It was already out- what better time to do this? If you have three missing vanes, it can't cool the engine at idle, period. If ANY vanes were missing when the shop looked at it, I would have a serious problem and if they didn't document everything, they'd be on my S-list.

Look at it this way- the choices were to A) replace a bad impeller and you probably wouldn't have had this problem (assuming the oil cooler and raw water hoses are all clear of any obstructions) or B) leave it and let you have this problem. A costs a little but B could be expensive if the exhaust hoses are soft, the flappers and flanges are blistered and the engine cooks. If these aren't at least inspected, you're asking for trouble.

Yes, worry about the missing vanes. Never assume they're not going to cause a problem.


Look, I'm not trying to be the voice of doom and gloom but these are different from car engines because they have a raw water impeller that's not metal and can be damaged and they have rubber exhaust hoses and flappers & plastic exhaust flanges that can be melted by hot exhaust gases. If any water was going through the engine and exhaust, it's possible that they weren't damaged badly because you were only at idle but they still need to be checked and the dealer should have instructed you on what to do WRT long idle times (basically, "don't"). The oil cooler should be checked- if you find weeds and other debris, that's a likely cause for this problem.

Im going to give the dealer the benefit of the doubt, as they have known the boat from day one, and the list of checks that they did were extensive and ranged from the trailer brakes to the energy absorbers holding up the engine cover. I found one of the vanes when I drained the port manifold and there are only two missing. While draining there was some crud that came out, so the other one could possibly be destroyed beyond the point of recognition. The temperature at the gauge never fluctuated, so Im fairly confident that there was no overheating. I am on my way out the door to finish the winterization, and am going to look for the debris you were talking about. Thanks for the pointers. I may be over anlalyzing this whole deal, however I have wanted this boat for over 6 years, and well frankly, its still new to me, i absolutely love it, and I plan on skiing the my a** off with it for years to come.

JimN
10-21-2012, 02:48 PM
Im going to give the dealer the benefit of the doubt, as they have known the boat from day one, and the list of checks that they did were extensive and ranged from the trailer brakes to the energy absorbers holding up the engine cover. I found one of the vanes when I drained the port manifold and there are only two missing. While draining there was some crud that came out, so the other one could possibly be destroyed beyond the point of recognition. The temperature at the gauge never fluctuated, so Im fairly confident that there was no overheating. I am on my way out the door to finish the winterization, and am going to look for the debris you were talking about. Thanks for the pointers. I may be over anlalyzing this whole deal, however I have wanted this boat for over 6 years, and well frankly, its still new to me, i absolutely love it, and I plan on skiing the my a** off with it for years to come.

The problem with thinking that the engine didn't overheat because the temperature didn't spike is that the coolant temperature sensor needs to be immersed in liquid in order to work. If it was at a particular temperature and the liquid goes away, it won't cool down very fast because air doesn't conduct heat very well.

RJY
11-02-2012, 03:56 PM
I just bought a 99 X Star (205 V) the guy I bought if from says I have the LT1 but I want to be sure, this would mean the difference between using RV anti freeze or not.
How can I tell if I have the LT1 or not?

Thanks!

JimN
11-02-2012, 04:00 PM
I just bought a 99 X Star (205 V) the guy I bought if from says I have the LT1 but I want to be sure, this would mean the difference between using RV anti freeze or not.
How can I tell if I have the LT1 or not?

Thanks!

Is the engine all black, or does it have a large, metal part over the top with a rectangular plastic part to the side that has a hose clamp? The LT-1 would have black plastic pieces over the injectors with 'Corvette' on them.

If you don't have the black plastic covers and the intake manifold is narrow with the throttle body in the center but it doesn't look like a carb on top, you have the LTR, which is also a really good engine.

dvsone79
11-03-2012, 12:01 PM
nevermind.

Ski-me
10-12-2013, 08:55 AM
bump....

Some good stuff for Winterizing as the season is now upon us. :(

Ski-me
10-12-2013, 09:08 AM
The only thing I would add is the Platinum oil filter from napa part 41060 - not needed but good for my MCOCD... http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=PFL41060_0362575149

The only difference in the platinum has a lower flow rate - but catches smaller particles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRbDfhgOOgo

Mike,

I looked at both filters (41060 & 1060)....both have identical flow rates (9-11 gpm). Why is this one better?